Ethics Case: Juniors in F/S events (Illinois)

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Ethics Case: Juniors in F/S events (Illinois)

Post by the return of AHAN »

So, in the aftermath of the Fremd frosh/soph tourney, apparently someone informed the Fremd coach that one of the quarterfinal teams used a junior player and that this player earned an all-star award, to boot. For the record, it wasn't Barrington, and I can't imagine he means his own team, which leaves 6 others quarterfinalists. In any event, Mr. Palmer is apparently giving the team in question the chance to 'fess up and self-report the violation to the IHSA before he asks for the return of trophies and adjustment of awards.
Anyone ever had anything like this happen before?
Last edited by the return of AHAN on Fri Nov 02, 2007 11:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Tegan »

BarringtonJP wrote:So, in the aftermath of the Fremd frosh/soph tourney, apparently someone informed the Fremd coach that one of the quarterfinal teams used a junior player and that this player earned an all-star award, to boot.

I don't think this will amount to anything, even if it is true. Perusing the IHSA by-laws and policies, there is no rule barring juniors or seniors from particiapting in a frosh-soph tournament or match. This is strictly a matter for coaches, leagues, and tournament hosts. I am not sure the IHSA will even comment on the matter, other than to say, this is not under their juristiction.

It may also be worth noting that the recently passed Ethical Standards for Coaches passed by the IHSSBCA does not include anything about this, so it cannot even be said that it violates the state ethics standards. I think we would all agree that if a coach willingly did this with the intent to get the team ahead, then it likely is unethical.

I would recommend that, if this is a concern for the community, that frosh-soph tournament directors need to communicate this very specifically.

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Post by Stained Diviner »

Many years ago, a similar thing happened at a Loyola Frosh/Soph Tournament.

This forum is not a great place to speculate which school used a junior. Rumors get started, and the case may be more complicated then it seems on the surface.
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Post by the return of AHAN »

I'm just trying to get a grip on how intense things are at the IHSA level, as this tourney represented my maiden voyage in the realm of high school coaching. At this point, I only know SOMEONE knew about the junior and was unhappy enough to complain to Mr. P, who seems genuinely angry over it.
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Post by Tegan »

BarringtonJP wrote:I'm just trying to get a grip on how intense things are at the IHSA level
They're getting ready to add bass fishing to the list of state series.

"Intense" is not an adjective that I think fits here.

(Seriously, they are right now in a pretty intense lawsuit with the Illinois Press Association. I would think any "Scholastic Bowl" related complaints that come across the desk get filed under "to be handeled in December, 2013" file).

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Post by First Chairman »

If there is no honor among thieves, then bureaucratic measures are implemented. I'd hate to say that the particular team in question should be required to present transcripts of all participating students for future tournaments. Granted, I'd wind up seeing this measure implemented for every school (like we do with Decathlon), since one bad apple...

As I interpret things, since IHSA does not run their events as freshman/sophomore events, I think they leave those rules up to the individual tournaments. However, the coaches association can do something about it if there is an ethics or judicial board that oversees the integrity of the quiz bowl community. (Heck, I'd like to see that board even have external non-voting advisors HINT.) Even a place to send anonymous complaints on ethics violations would be nice. DR: with a code of ethics in place, what is the enforcement mechanism?

Investigating this matter shouldn't be rocket science. If you have the real names of all the students on the team (like from individual stats), you should be able to request transcripts from the school or produce a yearbook. Hence this is why posting individual stats helps matters.
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Post by Stained Diviner »

The IHSSBCA code of ethics is new, has no real enforcement mechanism, and doesn't deal with this particular issue because we didn't think of it. Many teams compete without their coaches becoming members of IHSSBCA, so it would be difficult for us to enforce anything. Fortunately, this is a very rare situation.

In this case, there is no investigating to be done. Our Ombudsman, David Riley, and I, are hopeful that the parties involved can work this out respectfully and professionally with each other, and we are in contact with Kevin Palmer, the TD.

As Mr. Egan said above, if this comes down to self-reporting a violation, the punishment will be negligible if anything beyond an apology. Hopefully, that is what will happen. (There is a slight complication in the matter that makes it slightly less of a clear case of cheating then it seems, though it still should not have happened.) If not, we will have to discuss a next step, and there are no clear procedures in place.

In Illinois, tournaments are independent. The IHSA gets involved generally when there are disagreements between schools, which happens very rarely in Scholastic Bowl. IHSSBCA lists tournaments in our calendar and gives results, but we are not affiliated with them in any official manner at all. We can help coaches work out their differences using our Ombudsman, but, given our lack of a relationship with school administrators and the existence of IHSA, enforcing rules has never been a major part of our mission.
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Post by Stained Diviner »

To provide an update, the team has emailed a letter of apology to all the coaches who attended the tournament and has agreed to return their trophy and All-Tournament medal.

The team plays in a conference which has Varsity and JV, as opposed to Illinois invitationals, which have Varsity and Frosh/Soph. In their conference, they are allowed to play anybody on the JV Team who is not a Varsity starter. They brought their JV Team to a Frosh/Soph Tournament, and a junior on the team did very well.

One of the opposing coaches was suspicious--I'm not sure why--and asked the student at the meet if she was a junior. She said she was a sophomore. The coach looked her up on Facebook, and found that she was a junior and got her to admit it. I don't think that the student's coach knew about the conversation at the tournament.

This particular incident is nearly a closed case at this point, though I believe Frosh/Soph Tournament hosts in the future will be clearer in their invitations. The TD in this case believed he was being very clear when he named his tournament the Fremd Frosh/Soph.
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Post by TheCzarMan »

ReinsteinD wrote:One of the opposing coaches was suspicious--I'm not sure why--and asked the student at the meet if she was a junior. She said she was a sophomore. The coach looked her up on Facebook, and found that she was a junior and got her to admit it.
Remember kids, it's never freaky to have middle aged people searching for your facebook in order to impeach your prior statements.

Not freaky at all.

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Post by STPickrell »

TheCzarMan wrote:
ReinsteinD wrote:One of the opposing coaches was suspicious--I'm not sure why--and asked the student at the meet if she was a junior. She said she was a sophomore. The coach looked her up on Facebook, and found that she was a junior and got her to admit it.
Remember kids, it's never freaky to have middle aged people searching for your facebook in order to impeach your prior statements.

Not freaky at all.
I'd say it rates right up there with impersonating a sophomore so you can play in an academic tournament whose very title says it is for freshmen and sophomores.

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Post by Gonzagapuma1 »

STPickrell wrote:
TheCzarMan wrote:
ReinsteinD wrote:One of the opposing coaches was suspicious--I'm not sure why--and asked the student at the meet if she was a junior. She said she was a sophomore. The coach looked her up on Facebook, and found that she was a junior and got her to admit it.
Remember kids, it's never freaky to have middle aged people searching for your facebook in order to impeach your prior statements.

Not freaky at all.
I'd say it rates right up there with impersonating a sophomore so you can play in an academic tournament whose very title says it is for freshmen and sophomores.
No, that person was a junior in high school. That may have been immature but they may not be experienced enough to know better. A grown person checking someone's facebook without their knowledge is just creepy.

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Post by Captain Sinico »

Gonzagapuma1 wrote:No, that person was a junior in high school. That may have been immature but they may not be experienced enough to know better. A grown person checking someone's facebook without their knowledge is just creepy.
Dude, what? Facebook exists to be checked by anyone. Don't publish details about yourself that anyone can see on the internet and then get scruples about who's looking at it.
Also, that "immature" explanation is nonsense. That person was knowingly cheating and got caught doing so. The fact that they got caught because of information that they themselves put in a world-viewable internet resource is funny, not creepy.

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Post by The Atom Strikes! »

A Facebook is something that can be viewed by anyone. I don't think that checking somebody's publically available information is an invasion of privacy. Not following the rules of a Frosh/Soph tournament, though, is quite unethical.
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Post by First Chairman »

The kid probably also has a Myspace account too. All's fair on the internet, as long as you can trust everything you see there.
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Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) »

Yeah, it really wouldn't be creepy unless we could somehow establish that the coach looking her up was doing it to look at pictures or something, which by design is blocked by facebook since you need to be "friends" with someone to see their pictures (unless your page is open, which is your own problem if you don't want people to see your pics). As it is, checking facebook is a perfectly legitimate route for someone to follow if they want to establish that a junior was playing in a Freshman-Sophomore tournament and, as such, cheating, and it is probably the easiest way to do it since otherwise you'd need to contact the school she goes to, and I would highly doubt they'd just hand out her records to anyone who called (actually, I'd be really really disturbed if they did.) So no, this isn't creepy.
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Post by Stained Diviner »

It turns out I misspoke before. It was actually a student who looked up the student on Facebook and then told his coach. My apologies to anybody who has been falsely accused of being creepy.
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