A Message for Quizbowl Adults Online

[TangDynasty0701]

First off, I just want to state that these observations are not really related to the recent “Should high schoolers and olds talk in the #off-topic channel on the Main Quizbowl Discord” discussion, but are related to boundaries and online behavior in general among olds, albeit from the perspective of an undergraduate who is new to the collegiate level of the activity. To the newcomers to collegiate quizbowl who are reading this, the negative behaviors mentioned in this post are uncommon, and I don’t believe that they are made by people with truly malicious intents. It’s just something that’s noticeable enough to have detrimental effects. I am truly sorry if this is one of the first commentaries about collegiate quizbowl you’ve seen, and I hope that things work out better for you in the future.

In the Spring of 2020, I was offered a chance to run for an officer position by the Club President of the Ohio State University Quizbowl Team; this was partially due to my relative familiarity with the current state of the activity and my ability to get people at least interested in the game, thus improving our program’s outreach. In our endeavors to recruit new collegiate players, we’ve had multiple people join and leave, which is typical of clubs. What is not typical is how people leave from seeing what they think are off-putting behaviors online on the forums, wiki, and other more popular platforms like Discord. I realized that I was not the only new college player who held these sentiments, which was quite concerning to me because outreach is something that people in the community are trying to improve.

What has concerned me even more in the last month or two was how even young high schoolers who are still a while away from graduating are telling me things like “the greater community is the reason I want to quit'' or “I’m literally 100% not playing quizbowl after hs because of the Main qb olds”. I’ve also heard similar disheartening things from my own former teammates and rivals in high school when I inquired why they left quizbowl. Even among my own peers (same graduation year) who are active, they often say things along the lines of “looking at Main qb is a mistake” and “leaving the Main server is one of the best decisions I’ve ever made”. The common “don’t dive too deep into quizbowl people” or “stay away from the greater quizbowl community” advice did not seem so problematic to me, as these were warnings I heeded for pretty much my entire time in the activity until college. However, I started to find myself, my teammates, and club officers giving prospective players this advice more than I expected, and began to think that this negative first impression of the greater community and “quizbowl is cringe” mentality presented to these new people could stunt the growth and sustainability of the activity, which were confirmed to be reasonable as stated before.

Now onto the more specific things contributing to this issue which I and some other folks can articulate well. The first problem pertains to age dynamics between young/newer college players and older players or “oldest olds”. The overwhelmingly dominant presence of these “oldest olds” on the Main server and general quizbowl spaces online can make them small and insular to new players introduced to them. From my personal perspective, the aforementioned demographic mostly involves people who are no longer eligible for college tournaments and solely function in a more writing, editing, and/or organizational position in the community. I have absolutely no problem with these sorts of people present on these platforms. I even think it’s a good thing! Having such authority figures around these places is essential to newcomers and nurturing the future of quizbowl on these fronts when they are operating in a mentor-like fashion. On a more non-quizbowl related front, I have received generous help and greatly benefited with professional things like learning how to write cover letters, putting together a CV, and how grad school works in an academic field I’m interested in from graduate and retired players alike. However, please do consider that online platforms, especially the “Main Quizbowl server” as many call it, is one of the first introductions to the community that players have. Seeing retired players for 8+ years talking about a player who got their PhD before I was born or reminiscing about their days as a player from similar times for extended amounts of time on Mainstream spaces contributes to this “insularity” problem discussed many times before which intimidates newcomers and even graduating high school players transitioning into the collegiate circuit. Do also keep in mind that this particular demographic is the most crucial to the growth and sustainability of quizbowl beyond high school as well as the dominant population among players in the community. If you catch yourself spiraling into irrelevant to young people/newcomers “Quiz Bowl history days” discussion for an extended period of time or consistently being the loudest voice in a discussion concerning young players the most, just take it to another social space where most of the people in there are indeed retired players or perhaps just “older” people. I’ve done some things similar to this in the presence of new club members a few times. I just stop and/or take it somewhere else when I catch myself in a situation like this. If someone notes that they’re finding such happenings intimidating, insular, or even unwelcoming, responding with something like “sorry for talking about quizbowl in a quizbowl server” is only further justifying those negative impressions they have which brings me to the second and more sensitive topic to elaborate upon.

A common grievance I hear and see about online spaces (not just on Discord but also on forums in my and others’ experience) is how older veteran figures talk down to younger folks in the community in a condescending manner (hs or not hs) when they express their thoughts or concerns about certain aspects of quizbowl or even their academic career. Not too long ago, an undergraduate student stated how the olds were “genuinely good at being mean” after they had posted a “hot take” but not a harmful one. Heck I even had a prospective player at Ohio State decide not to get involved in quizbowl because of the “petty and toxic vibes of the community” they got from a stupidly written article on qbwiki! To me at least, these instances are absolutely not representative of the community in real life, but they can be for incoming and/or new collegiate or even high school players now. The internet is a lot more accessible to young people now. In some ways, you must expect that teens will make stupid posts. Many of us have been there, and it’s ok to call them out for bad internet behavior in an appropriate manner. However, there is very little room for rude and destructive criticisms towards younger players in an informal and formal setting online whether it be the forums, Discord, or Facebook groups. So stop immediately employing the Socratic method or blatantly cyberbullying these people in an attempt to undermine their concerns. I already saw that some of you people in the community actually did this to me and other people who shared my sentiments on the Main Server. Just because you don’t see the problem from your perspective doesn’t mean it’s non-existent. If you are unfamiliar with it, let go of your pride, and just hear them out before you shut them down even if it seems to be dumb. Also, don’t encourage younger players to do this on the internet.

Furthermore, the academic nature of quizbowl is elitist, so don’t do the things previously mentioned on the internet or anywhere that would worsen this characteristic or general negative perceptions people have about the community. You really are ensuring the death of this activity if you continue these habits. Don’t forget current active and young players remain a priority because they are the future of quizbowl. Again, don’t let something small push you to make some snarky remark against a teenager for your own entertainment or to make yourself feel better. We’re adults, and we should act like it. I honestly can’t believe I’m saying that as an 18 year old to people in their mid 20s to 30+ years old about online etiquette. I’m only laying out such thoughts in detail on here because many of my peers along with younger players who see me as some authority figure are too scared to do so in the fear of being rebuked in the rude manners mentioned before, while I have nothing to lose or tolerate much after this because I don’t intend on staying in quizbowl for long. Frankly speaking, I don’t think I have ever chosen to leave an activity I love so much because of how intolerable the behavior can be. Please do not make this the case for people in the future.

Lastly, I should have put a lot more thought into how much quizbowl has impacted older figures personally before saying things akin to “log off and get a life”. I do understand how important quizbowl can be to one personally and how hard it is to step away from your old competitive spheres. I’m aware of how the pandemic has made this harder for many of us. After taking a brief hiatus from the activity, I rejoined some local social spaces mostly relating to my high school days and eventually my university’s club in October of 2020 because quizbowl was the only thing I was familiar with at a college where I knew nobody well, and COVID made it incredibly hard to meet new people which also caused me to embed myself into the greater community for the first time. I found myself socializing with many former teammates/rivals, some of whom were still in high school, and the discord server I created for my high school became more active than ever and eventually evolved into a more informal (even insular) space for players. The sudden expansion of the server eventually became concerning for very few players that actually attended that high school because it did indeed make the server more intimidating and uninviting to a certain extent. Even though it was just 1 or 2 out of 40+ people that voiced this concern, I realized that as I am getting older and becoming an adult, I am getting more out of touch with these young high school players. I ended up stepping down as the server owner, cut down my activity, and turned ownership over to a current student of that high school who is in tune with his peers as soon as I turned 18, despite some of those kids asking me to talk to them more. Some of those high schoolers were my teammates just months before, and during my tenure as server owner, there were many high school players older than I was, but it just felt weird to have a dominant presence and voice in a space like that and similar standards should apply to retired and current undergraduate/graduate players depending on where they are. It also seems a bit unfair to place the burden of avoiding insularity embedded in the greater community and knowing where proper boundaries lie between age groups on newcomers. For the record, I do understand how large “official” servers in general, especially high school specific servers such as the one I created, do need adults (myself, old graduated teammates, and the coach for instance) around to make sure nothing gets too out of hand should anything happen, but we are not the most dominant voices talking on the general channels in the server. We have an #olds channel to talk in for times when we need them. In addition, sometimes we don’t really realize that we’re too consumed by quizbowl, but a wise man once stated how a lot of the toxicity in quizbowl could be cut down by “encouraging a norm against obsessiveness”. I don’t see why authorial figures who are out of touch on these social spaces should do something similar to what I did by stepping down, finding new people to take up that role, and cutting down their own activity to a healthy level. As a matter of fact, it’s best if everybody, old and young, reevaluate how healthy their current involvement on quizbowl internet is regarding their role in the community and readjust it to an appropriate one if need be.

I also wanted to note that further discussion about the nature of the Main Quizbowl Discord Server changed my mind a bit on how it should be run as some people seemed to reach the consensus that it should not be the default social space aside from forums and should stop being advertised as one for newcomers to the collegiate circuit or maybe activity in general. This seems to be the more realistic solution to a part of the insularity in “public” spaces problem. I don’t know how the Main Server is going to change from now on or if a new platform will be used by newer players, but the points outlined on this post are things to be kept in mind regardless of the platform community members at large (hs, undergrad, etc) are socializing on.

TL;DR - Stop being an a**shole on the internet and make this community one that is worth staying in.

[ryanrosenberg]

This is a good post, and I hope people (including me!) take it to heart. I've also heard variations on "[the main quizbowl] Discord is terrible", "I enjoyed [online quizbowl socialization] much more when I don't look at mainqb", "oh I never read mainqb" from a variety of people of different ages and experiences (although I'll note that older people are disproportionately likely to find it tolerable). I've been taking some hiatuses from being in the server and generally have a better time on Discord when I am not in it.

By contrast, I do enjoy my time in other online quizbowl spaces, like regional servers, set servers, and groupchats with quizbowl friends. I'd encourage people interested in online quizbowl socialization to cultivate those sorts of social spaces, as I've found that these more tight-knit communities are generally friendlier, more welcoming, and more interesting. I'll also note that college quizbowl primarily does not take place in online social spaces, and that it's very possible (and maybe even better/more healthy) to be involved in college quizbowl without ever going on the Discord/forums.

To be honest, I'm not sure of the benefit of having a social aspect to the main Discord server. There are certainly plenty of benefits to having a space where people can ask for help on quizbowl-related projects. But an online social space is inevitably going to be dominated by the loudest or most frequent voices, and with a server as big as mainqb is, there are going to be a lot of loud voices. This is just my opinion -- I'm in no position to implement or demand changes -- but I'll reiterate my prior point that I've found smaller, more specialized spaces more pleasant to be in.

[1.82]

In addition, sometimes we don’t really realize that we’re too consumed by quizbowl, but a wise man once stated how a lot of the toxicity in quizbowl could be cut down by “encouraging a norm against obsessiveness”. I don’t see why authorial figures who are out of touch on these social spaces should do something similar to what I did by stepping down, finding new people to take up that role, and cutting down their own activity to a healthy level.

It seems important here to point out that if adults who cared very much about the game and community did not volunteer copious time for free, quizbowl would not exist anywhere at any level.

[ThisIsMyUsername]

Yijen raises some important points in her post, but I would like to push back against what I find to be a suspicious premise of this general mode of discourse, which has grown stronger over the past few months.

The basic contention that the forums and Discord frequently becomes hotbeds of invective cannot be denied. (As a practitioner of polemic, my hands are not clean in this matter.) Yijen is surely right that there are benefits to be reaped by cultivating a cooler rhetorical temperature--that the atmosphere will be more welcoming to the conflict-averse. I think that even the people who love a good scrap would admit that this is true, even if they do not relish the prospect of self-regulating.

I understand too why this might make the social world of quizbowl as a whole rather unappealing. Frankly, although I used to post a lot on the forums and have begun to maintain a presence in the Discord during the pandemic (though I did not frequent it before), I have deliberately minimized my interactions with the broader quizbowl social world throughout nearly my entire career as a player (in part because I grew up in the age of the IRC, which was many times worse than the Discord). I have always viewed it as the least appealing broader community of which I am a part. This was fine, however, because interacting with the rest of the quizbowl world was purely optional. The only world that ever needed to be pleasant was the culture of the specific club that I belonged to. If that were unpleasant, my time in quizbowl would be inescapably unpleasant. But if that culture was agreeable, then my time as a whole could be agreeable. (It hopefully goes without saying that this is why a lot of the laudable steps people are taking to improve club and in-game behavior are necessary.)

It is from this that my objection stems. If the Discord or the discussion sections of the forum were a game room or a team practice, I think that all of the proscriptions Yijen urges would be fully justified, because the behavior would be an impediment to participating in the game. But that is fundamentally not what the Discord is at all.

Most people who play collegiate quizbowl do not use the Discord. No one has to use the Discord in order to participate in any facet of quizbowl. Furthermore, most people who play collegiate quizbowl do not post on the forums. Nor do they need to read anything other than the announcement threads in order to participate. There is a long list of national champions who had/have virtually zero forums presence and who have never set foot in the Discord, except maybe to play a packet.

It should surprise no one that the atmosphere in the Discord and forums can be offputting. What does and should surprise some people, however, is that the people Yijen describes (who are unwilling to play quizbowl because of Discord/forums behavior) seem to be saying, "Unless I feel comfortable actively participating in a specific, unofficial social space that is completely tangential to playing the game, I don't want to play the game at all." That's a very alarming attitude. In fact, I would go so far as to say that it is simply unreasonable to make participation in the game contingent upon the behavior of people that one literally never needs to interact with, except in-game when their conduct is already regulated.

Those who object to the way that people of different ages are interacting in the Discord spaces have repeatedly asked the question, "Would you talk this way to this person in a face-to-face interaction?" I think this is exactly the right question for us to ask ourselves on a continual basis. I hope it remains a useful guide that members of my age group can continue to apply as we calibrate our interactions with younger members of the community. (I know that I have failed to apply this on occasion.)

But I would like to ask this in return to some of the quizbowlers pushing for Discord reforms. What if this were in-person? Would you walk into a room where people are socializing and demand that they change what they talk about, how they talk, how much they should speak, maybe even ask them to leave the room if they want to discuss certain things? Unless your definition of "room" requires it be physical, this isn't even an analogy; this is a literal description of what is happening. Again, if this were a team practice--if this room were a part of the game of quizbowl rather than a room in which quizbowlers happened to hang out--this might be reasonable. But in a broader social context, I think this is, frankly, pretty ludicrous.

I don't have much personal investment in this issue. I don't particularly care in what room I get to chat with people. But, although I do not speak for the olds by any mean, I hope this explains what these demands sound like to some of us. The responses of some of the olds may be too flippant, but I think their stance is not merely understandable, but correct.

[sethpauluwu]

It should surprise no one that the atmosphere in the Discord and forums can be offputting. What does and should surprise some people, however, is that the people Yijen describes (who are unwilling to play quizbowl because of Discord/forums behavior) seem to be saying, "Unless I feel comfortable actively participating in a specific, unofficial social space that is completely tangential to playing the game, I don't want to play the game at all." That's a very alarming attitude. In fact, I would go so far as to say that it is simply unreasonable to make participation in the game contingent upon the behavior of people that one literally never needs to interact with, except in-game when their conduct is already regulated.

this doesn't excuse qbwiki, which seems like a reputable quizbowl resource, being offputting to many people. when i first got into the social part of qb, trying to read the articles felt like scrolling through fanfic. if official quizbowl records that are seen as a dictionary for beginners at first glance or whatever feel self-serving, insular, and unbearable to deal with when it comes to misconduct being so prominent to be documented casually (i appreciate the forums, but qbwiki???), L + Ratio + every day i grow further and further from this community because of how it feels like i cannot understand how people think even with paragraphs of text.

[csa2125]

In support of taking action to solve the problems addressed, I would like to propose the following actionable changes to major online hubs for quizbowl discussion and socialization:

QBWiki
-As Caroline Mao suggested, edit-a-thons would help greatly in solving the current tonal issues with much of the Wiki.
-More contributors (myself including) are needed to aid Kevin Wang, et al.'s efforts to improve the Wiki generally and to contribute missing articles (and edit down information of a sensitive or inappropriate nature where needed). Additional maintenance work should be organized due to the ongoing nature of such a Wiki project and due to the ongoing nature of quizbowl playing, theory, writing, logistics, etc.
-A formal effort to update general resources should be made. Additionally, I advise the creation of "Essays" on relevant quizbowl topics and for meta-QBWiki matters, as is the practice on Wikipedia proper.

Discord
-The "Rules" page on the main Discord server should be fleshed out. As it stands, most of the rules for discussion, and the associated penalties and rewards, are unwritten and not easily accessible.
- Is the Announcements channel only for server announcements by administrators and moderators? Should there exist a Community Announcements channel for public use, such as advertising online sets, calls for staff or writers, for directing community members to ongoing forum discussions needing more input, and for such things as would interest the community at large?
-Role Requests should be cordoned off into sections for 1) requesting and 2) litigating. The tone of the channel should be enforced by some means, to minimize conflict (given the abundance of joke role requests that have not been well-received by the community, nor by the server moderation team, to my knowledge)
-Any "Discussion" text channel, as is, is so easily derailed by the broadness of the discussion topic as to be rendered useless. Use of threads should be encouraged, if not enforced, or more channels should be opened; the former seems to be the superior solution to reduce clutter.
-Likewise, for a quizbowl community server, a single discussion channel for all things quizbowl (save online tournament advice and "talking about what group of quizbowlers with certain traits would make the best team") is manifestly beyond insufficient. I propose the creation of the following channels under the "quizbowl" banner: Theory, Player/Team Discussion, QB History, Logistics, General Q&A / Advice; and the following topics asked about in quizbowl grouped in such a scheme as this: Literature, History, Science, Math, Visual Fine Arts, Audio Fine Arts, Audiovisual Fine Arts, Religion+Mythology, Thought (Philosophy+Social Science), Geo+Modern World, Other Academic (possibly including therein a Mixed Impure Academic / "boundary-work" discussion about "stuff QB should ask about as academic subject)
-Channels and threads should be added to the Community tab on an as-needed basis, as has been done successfully so far.
-On a related note, the creation of temporary threads for later archiving, as was done with fantasy-qb (whose revival I would love to see), Festivus, CamO-Discussion, civil-war, etc. is a very good practice for allowing more discussions to occur, and should be implemented on an as-needed basis.
-Create a space, whether inside or outside the main server, where "poasts," "trolls," and other "low-quality postings" can be made freely
-Promote the various affinity groups, Class of 20XX servers, Quiz Adults, and other areas catering to narrower interests, finding same-age or same-experience peers in quizbowl, and to more private or personal discussions. I propose a channel in which to collate information on these groups.

The above seeks to remedy (at least, partially) the issues of "mod abuse" that have risen time and again; of the "dominance" of certain threads by factions real or imagined that excludes other voices, especially of newcomers; various issues endemic to social spaces of such a size; and the "poasting" drama around "low-quality" and unserious messages.

Forums
-The forums/Discord divide should be written down somewhere: how else will a newcomer know what kinds of posts go where?
-Discord content is often ephemeral, and so important Discord discussion and the like should be transferred from Discord to the forum or wiki in some fashion; open to proposals from others on how exactly this should be handled.
-Some steps must be taken to make the forum less a place of doom and gloom when it comes to having any sort of substantive discussion--a concerning majority of recent "collegiate discussion," "community discussion," and "theory" posts are of a negative nature, and these often turn sour quickly. I took up a period of posting intended to brighten up discussion and allow for constructive conversation to be conducted politely and encouragingly to any and all voices; I intend to take up this mantle again, but more formal efforts and the efforts of those other than myself will be needed.

(caveat: the above proposals are not intended to be final, and (constructive!) discussion and commentary, and the proposal of alternate suggestions are encouraged; I myself intend to post more regarding neurotypicality, mental health, and etiquette generally, esp. in light of discussion on "obsessiveness." I would like to express my deepest gratitude towards the suppliers of thousands upon thousands of unpaid man-hours expended on improving quizbowl as a game and community, and seek to ensure such prior effort is not in vain, all for naught).

[bikeown]

...
-Promote the various affinity groups, Class of 20XX servers, Quiz Adults, and other areas catering to narrower interests, finding same-age or same-experience peers in quizbowl, and to more private or personal discussions. I propose a channel in which to collate information on these groups.

The above seeks to remedy (at least, partially) the issues of "mod abuse" that have risen time and again; of the "dominance" of certain threads by factions real or imagined that excludes other voices, especially of newcomers; various issues endemic to social spaces of such a size; and the "poasting" drama around "low-quality" and unserious messages.
...

...
I also wanted to note that further discussion about the nature of the Main Quizbowl Discord Server changed my mind a bit on how it should be run as some people seemed to reach the consensus that it should not be the default social space aside from forums and should stop being advertised as one for newcomers to the collegiate circuit or maybe activity in general. This seems to be the more realistic solution to a part of the insularity in “public” spaces problem. I don’t know how the Main Server is going to change from now on or if a new platform will be used by newer players, but the points outlined on this post are things to be kept in mind regardless of the platform community members at large (hs, undergrad, etc) are socializing on.
...

There are a lot of excellent points in this thread, but these stand out to me. In a social space with thousands of occupants of widely varying ages and backgrounds, I think some portion of the population is going to feel left out no matter what, due to differences in the ways we engage with each other as we get older. I don't think that's something that can be eliminated (although efforts to minimize insularity are worthwhile and appreciated), but rather a fact of life with a social space this large. I agree with John's point that you can't just tell people to leave a space if they're allowed to be there and aren't doing something clearly objectionable, which is why I think the solution may lie in promoting social spaces that are larger than an individual club, but smaller than "all of quizbowl".

Those online spaces that already exist should be given more visibility, provided they have some level of moderation. Besides the Affinity Group Directory, there doesn't seem to be anywhere obvious to learn about these spaces unless you ask someone who's in the know, and that can be off-putting to newcomers for any number of reasons. That said, I think these spaces can also arise in a more organic manner. By virtue of geography, the region in which we play tournaments defines one such space. I can say from experience that being friendly and willing to talk to other people at tournaments goes a long way toward making newcomers feel included. I'm not sure if servers for different regions exist and are used, but they'd offer another mode of engaging with the people you'd see at local tournaments. The writers and editors of sets are part of another such space by default, albeit one that may be less social in nature. On an even smaller scale, two clubs that are close enough to meet without much hassle could arrange some kind of mutual event, whether it's inherently quizbowl-related or purely social. Ultimately, there are a plethora of these smaller groups that either exist already or could be created.

To more directly address Yijen's original post, I certainly agree that the major avenues for quizbowl interaction can and often do feel insular to newcomers, and that it's a problem when people's first exposure to the broader quizbowl community is negative. I'd also agree that some amount of that is due to older members of the community discussing things that happened when I was in elementary school*. I don't feel qualified to offer suggestions on how much these older members should use the Discord or what they should talk about, but I think that the creation and promotion of smaller regulated social spaces, both online and offline, could help resolve the feeling of insularity without artificially limiting older people's use of the Discord or opening the door to misconduct.

*It's worth noting that every subgroup of the Discord has their insular habits to a degree, all of which likely contribute to a general feeling of insularity. The discussions between high schoolers that I see on the Discord seem to be as impenetrable to an outside observer as those between 30+ year olds, and I'm not sure whether high school me would have been more put off by the fact that I couldn't relate to some of the older people or by the fact that a lot of the interaction between people my age felt Very Online and in-jokey.