2006 PACE NSC info thread

Dormant threads from the high school sections are preserved here.
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Post by First Chairman »

Well, all the college nationals are bunched up in April. Furthermore, that's also the likeliest month for Easter/Passover break, thus throwing a lot of planning into chaos.

In addition, some state championship tournaments are held in April. Ohio's is held in May.

Of course, I'd suggest bridging the gap with even more tournaments!!!
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Post by Matt Weiner »

Yeah, April is bad for the college people who write and staff high school nationals. I've always been interested in seeing a HS national in the middle of May, though.
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Re: Nationals in April...

Post by quizbowllee »

pblessman wrote:Here's a dumb question: Why can't Nationals (whichever flavor...) be held in April? Scheduling problems with APs, graduation, and summer prevail, and most states end their state competitions in March, April at the latest. It seems most schools have a rough time of bridging the time from their regular season until Nationals... what's a team to do with two months of no competitions? So let's move Nationals to April!
Phil, are you bringing your team to either national tournament this year?
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Culver at Nationals

Post by pblessman »

I guess my motivation is partially selfish... Our grad is first weekend in June, and at Culver, seniors would never miss grad. This means we'll miss NAQT (again), and PACE is a week later now, so I'd have to regather my flock two weeks after they have left campus... not an easy task.

And seriously, I don't know what everybody else's players are doing, but my team is pretty decimated by now. I have a hard enough time keeping things together from October until March, but at this point things are coming apart. My captain has missed three tournaments in a row, and I've lost four other top eight players to sports as well. I really think we should look at condensing things so Quiz Bowl doesn't stretch through all three seasons...
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Post by First Chairman »

For some people, middle of May is horrible. College graduation time for a number of schools. College exams are bad for others. HS Prom is also pretty bad and the start of a few graduations. The stress of AP's also rear their heads.

To its credit, USAD does do its nationals in April. This year, USAD nationals is this week.

I forget when speech/debate nationals are.
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Post by Matthew D »

I know personally that my team would have problems with moving them to April due to sports.
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Post by vcuEvan »

April is the cruelest month.
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NSC 1998-2005 questions

Post by First Chairman »

Just to let you know that all the past questions for the NSC from 1998 to 2005 are available to the coaches and any team contacts.

If you did not receive the email, that means you have not joined the listserver as a registrant for the competition. Please contact me if you have registered for the tournament (by submitting your check) but have not received this note.
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Field

Post by pblessman »

Dr. Chuck- Could you post an update on the field?
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Re: Field

Post by First Chairman »

pblessman wrote:Dr. Chuck- Could you post an update on the field?
It's continously updated on page 1.

Please note, I only post the names up when I get the registration check. Until then, anyone else saying they are attending is still "unofficial."
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Post by First Chairman »

Just letting everyone know, NCSSM is expecting a final field to be in by mid-May. At this point, I am anticipating between 27 and 28 teams in the field, even though they are not all listed on the website. To say the least, the field will be very competitive, and the teams that are attending will make any decisions to bracket the field extremely tough.
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Post by quizbowllee »

E.T. Chuck wrote:Just letting everyone know, NCSSM is expecting a final field to be in by mid-May. At this point, I am anticipating between 27 and 28 teams in the field, even though they are not all listed on the website. To say the least, the field will be very competitive, and the teams that are attending will make any decisions to bracket the field extremely tough.
Would it be remotely possible to do some sort of power matching like the HSNCT? I agree, just by looking at the current posted field, that making pools anywhere near fair will be nearly impossible.
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Post by First Chairman »

I have to discuss that with my colleagues to see if that would work. At the moment, we'd prefer keeping to tradition where we have divisions. That way we don't lose time waiting for results on Saturday. We would prefer keeping the Sunday playoff rounds as divisional round robin with two divisions of six, winnowing down to the Final Four.

However, it is likely that the consolation matches on Sunday will be power-matched to determine the consolation championship. If we actually have 28 teams, 16 teams would go into the consolation rounds, and thus 4-5 rounds of power-matching would work well.
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Post by DumbJaques »

Would it be remotely possible to do some sort of power matching like the HSNCT? I agree, just by looking at the current posted field, that making pools anywhere near fair will be nearly impossible.
The problem with that is that if you play 7 power matched games, a team that loses its first 3 games (let's assume the reason for that is because they're kind of bad), it has a relatively good shot of playing 4 other teams that aren't so great, and going 4-3.

On the other hand, if a top team goes win one-lose one with other top teams, it's unlikely they'd come out better than 4-3. For example:

Team A is decent, but not in the class of Teams B, C, and D

Team A gets rocked by B, C, and D in games 1-3. They then play other 0-3, 1-3, 2-3, and 3-3 teams. Assume they win out and go 4-3.

Team B wins its first 3 games against mild or no competition. It then loses to Team C, but is still at 3-1 so has to play another really good team, let's say team D. Even if they lose, the problem is that one member of the very top class of teams will likely also be 3-2, so they'll have to play again. That situation might even carry to the seventh game, so Team B might end up going 3-4, despite being much better than Team A. I just don't see Swiss pairing working for such a top-heavy field with only 7ish prelim games. What's wrong with bracketing? The only thing it changes is that the best teams face slightly less competition in the prelims, and the second and third-tier teams face slightly more. That's no different from any other year PACE has used brackets.
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Tentative schedule of events

Post by First Chairman »

This is the tentative agenda. Things can still change depending on the number of teams in attendance.

Friday, June 16
6:00 PM : Hunt Dorm is open for on-site registration for housing participants and volunteers
10:00 PM (Hunt Dorm): Mandatory meeting for housing residents. Sign paperwork there.
11:00 PM (Hunt Dorm Classroom): Staff social and meeting.

Saturday, June 17
THIS SECTION WILL BE REVISED IN A FUTURE POST

Sunday, June 18
7:30 AM (NCSSM cafeteria) Breakfast
8:15 AM (Bryan Lobby or cafeteria) Pick up new schedules
THIS SECTION WILL BE REVISED IN A FUTURE POST
6:00 PM : All adjourn.
Last edited by First Chairman on Mon May 22, 2006 1:11 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Food announcement

Post by First Chairman »

Hi everyone,

For breakfast and lunch, I would like to anticipate the number of vegetarian or alternative diet meals for the tournament. Please let me know by May 15 if you want me to include you into my count for these meals.
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Re: Tentative schedule of events

Post by rchschem »

E.T. Chuck wrote:5:15 PM (ETC Auditorium) Benjamin Cooper Award presentation and announcements for Sunday.
They named an auditorium after you. What an honor!

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Post by First Chairman »

You see how I'm getting all these accolades before I leave... :cool:
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Post by Stained Diviner »

DumbJaques--
You're assuming a simplistic version of power matching. If a team wins its first three and then loses its next one, good power matching will put it against a team that lost one of its earlier matches and won three rather than a team that had the same results in the same order.

None of this really matters because Dr. Chuck doesn't want to do it this way. Also, it is difficult to get from 28 teams to 12 teams in 7 rounds of power matching.
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Post by Zip Zap Rap Pants »

Yea as with most competition formats there are pluses and minuses to power matching. If you had computers everywhere, then real time Swiss would eliminate the wait (and actually that tips the balance to convince me of Swiss's overall superiority - if you can do it real time). However, assuming you are able to eliminate the wait, Swiss pairing works much better with more rounds, though 7 is about enough for you to come up with close to fair results (or at least, results that don't screw many teams out of the playoffs). If a team does lose more rounds than it should have, then total points is the tiebreaker Swiss pairing relies on to at least separate bad 4-3 teams (as mentioned in the example) from top teams with bad luck. The thing is though, PACE always relies on tiebreaking games rather than statistical tiebreakers, so I guess power matching/Swiss pairing won't happen this year...

In a field of 28 I suppose that would mean brackets of 7, but hopefully bye-rounds can be avoided somehow (hah, maybe one power-matched cross-bracket round, but that would be uber-crazy...)
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Post by First Chairman »

In the past we have had non-binding interdivisional matches, usually scheduled such that a school's A team plays its B team, or two teams from very close proximity play each other. Samer used to read all those games, so we'll see how that works out this year.
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Updated NSC field

Post by First Chairman »

In deference to people who want to know, this is the current field (with one month left).

Apollo 1
Brindlee Mountain 3
Centennial 2
Clover Hill 1
Detroit Catholic Central 1
Dupont Manual 1
Eleanor Roosevelt 1
Fort Mill 1
Gonzaga College 1
Hardee Senior 1
Indian Springs 1
Maggie Walker Governor's School 3
New Mexico Military Institute 1
North Carolina School for Science and Mathematics 1
Raleigh Charter 2
Richard Montgomery 2
State College 2
Thomas Jefferson 2
Walter Johnson 1
Walton 1

If you are not on this list, I need to know by Friday, May 19. The final cap is likely to be 32, so if you're not here, I need to know.
Last edited by First Chairman on Tue May 23, 2006 9:56 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Post by quizbowllee »

I'm glad to see the field has picked up so much. It looks like it's going to a a tough tournament for sure.
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Re: Updated NSC field

Post by Zip Zap Rap Pants »

E.T. Chuck wrote: Teams I have to hear a final count from
....
North Carolina School for Science and Mathematics
Are they supposed to be (a) field filler(s) in order to make sure the field is 32? Also, it's a shame not to see more of the good Kentucky teams besides DuPont, or any Texas teams (St. John's, in particular).
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Post by First Chairman »

They've actually been straddling the fence for two months. In the past students from NCSSM have represented North Carolina at Panasonic (this year we're not sending anyone it appears now). Of course, if they do come in, that means I could get 33 teams. Argh.

You'll have to ask the coaches at those schools why they chose not to attend PACE. If the answer is that they didn't know we were running a tournament, then obviously my job search hasn't done much good on publicity. (They probably have other obligations, or they probably haven't even heard of PACE. ...)
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Post by First Chairman »

I'm still missing word from one team, but the field will be locked at 30 total teams (we're at 29 right now). Currently, the tournament directors are planning on three divisions rather than four to minimize the number of teams on bye. We are also in the process of determining a schedule for Sunday consolation play since we expect all teams to compete on Sunday for the consolation trophies.

We need to be sure that all teams have at least one representative on our listserver to update everyone of the agenda. Announcements and medical forms will be sent to all teams on that listserve.

All rosters and registration must be final by May 31. All photos should be sent to me by then (please). Furthermore, all adult chaperones and resident students should expect to bring a check for $10 as a deposit for the security keys used for the tournament.
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Post by quizbowllee »

E.T. Chuck wrote:I'm still missing word from one team, but the field will be locked at 30 total teams (we're at 29 right now). Currently, the tournament directors are planning on three divisions rather than four to minimize the number of teams on bye. We are also in the process of determining a schedule for Sunday consolation play since we expect all teams to compete on Sunday for the consolation trophies.

We need to be sure that all teams have at least one representative on our listserver to update everyone of the agenda. Announcements and medical forms will be sent to all teams on that listserve.

All rosters and registration must be final by May 31. All photos should be sent to me by then (please). Furthermore, all adult chaperones and resident students should expect to bring a check for $10 as a deposit for the security keys used for the tournament.
So... am I correct in assuming that there will be 9 prelim rounds this year? That will be great. Will this also mean that there will be more rounds played overall?

How many teams from each pool will make the playoffs?
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Post by First Chairman »

Deferring to Dan Greenstein to post a response as NSC tournament director here. :) But the short answer is yes.

Of course, I still have some people who haven't sent in their pics or rosters (tap tap tap tap tap....).
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Post by quizbowllee »

I've sent in pics for "A" and "B" teams. I'll get a pic of my "C" team when and if they decide to come to practice... No wonder they are the "C" team...
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Post by Dan Greenstein »

To confirm what Tom said:

We will be running three brackets of 9 or 10 teams, meaning each team will get eight or nine games over nine rounds on Saturday. Each team will get three to four games Sunday.

The top four teams in each bracket will advance to the championship playoffs to fill two brackets of six, where each team will play four games. The top two teams in each championship bracket will advance to the championship semifinals.

Everyone else is invited to the consolation playoffs, the format of which will depend on how many teams participate. We also plan to run consolation semifinals and final, although exactly how that will work will depend on the number of teams competing.

This arrangement means Saturday will be longer than it has been in the past and Sunday will be shorter. This is an experiment in format and we look forward to your feedback on this year's format after the NSC.

Thanks,

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Post by First Chairman »

quizbowllee wrote:I've sent in pics for "A" and "B" teams. I'll get a pic of my "C" team when and if they decide to come to practice... No wonder they are the "C" team...
Did you? Could you send them to me again to my personal email? Thx.

Maybe this deserves a different "Theory" thread, but have your A and B teams help you motivate your C team. Make peer pressure your friend.
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Post by Matthew D »

LOL.. you have know his C team.. they are a very interesting crew to say the least. And the A and B teams do crack on them about not coming to practice or they did last year..
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Post by First Chairman »

I suppose I will in a few weeks, won't I. :)
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Post by First Chairman »

Just letting you know I have sent out on our listserve an announcement that new student and coaches letters, the medical release form, campus maps, and restaurant maps have been uploaded for participants. I'll also be sending this information out in separate email.
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Updated student/chaperone letters

Post by First Chairman »

Hey everyone...

First, my computer went down, so it's really important that team contacts join the listserver!
  • Updated student/chaperone letters have been uploaded.

    NCSSM is requiring ALL students to submit a copy of emergency/medical insurance information, including those who are residing off-campus.

    All people who are being housed in the dorms should be ready to provide a check for $10 that will be returned (or ripped up) upon return of the security keys to the dorm and the campus.

    People requesting housing should plan to be available for a meeting with the residential staff at 10pm on the Friday.
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Rosters due Friday

Post by First Chairman »

Just a note: I had to reboot Windows into my computer so I may have misplaced your more recent emails with rosters... so...

This is just a reminder that I really do need all rosters for the 2006 NSC.

Rosters received
Apollo (4 students, 1 adult)
Brindlee Mountain (13 students, 1 adult)
Centennial (8 students, 1 non-playing student, 6 adults)
Clover Hill (4 students, 1 adult)
Dupont Manual (4 students, 1 adult)
Eleanor Roosevelt (3 students, 2 adults)
Fort Mill (5 students, 1 adult)
Indian Springs (4 students, 1 adult)
Maggie Walker Gov School (13 students, 1 adult)
New Mexico Military Institute (4 students, 4 adults)
North Carolina Science & Math (7 students)
Raleigh Charter (9 students, 1 adult)
State College (8 students, 1 adult)
Walter Johnson (4 students)
Walton (5 students, 1 adult)

PLEASE NOTE, if you have any visitors, I need to know asap so that we have enough lunches purchased for students, adults, and staff. Right now I have 200 lunches paid for, but if there are any extra members, I have to know by Friday. Right now, I have exactly 200 people estimated assuming that each of the 30 teams brings 4 students and 1 adult.

Photographs received
Apollo
Brindlee Mountain ABC
Clover Hill
Dupont Manual
[Eleanor Roosevelt]
Fort Mill
Gonzaga
Hardee Senior
Indian Springs
New Mexico Military Institute
State College AB
Walton

Please send your electronic photos by Friday to be included in the program.
Last edited by First Chairman on Fri Jun 09, 2006 2:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by quizbowllee »

So, what's going to be done about that 30th team? Spoiler? Hybrid? Matt Weiner solo? :wink:

Also, anyone want to make predictions on the winner, etc?

I guess RM is the odds on favorite, though State College is going to want revenge...
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Post by Zip Zap Rap Pants »

quizbowllee wrote:So, what's going to be done about that 30th team? Spoiler? Hybrid? Matt Weiner solo? :wink:

Also, anyone want to make predictions on the winner, etc?

I guess RM is the odds on favorite, though State College is going to want revenge...
I've actually been talking to St. Christopher's (from here in Richmond), which has two decent starters but has sent an all-sophomore team to two of UVa's tournaments this year, so even if not everyone can show up, they can go pretty deep (they have one sophomore who can score better than probably anyone there except the captain...they have some seniority over talent issues there). I talked to one of the players about it Monday I think it was, and he was supposed to talk to the coach, but he neglected to do so and also neglected to inform me that he's on beach week right now ( :mad: ), so I finally called the coach myself today, and he sounded interested, just needs to gather his team and get school support (which shouldn't be too difficult since they were a Battle of the Brains semifinalist this year). Their registration might be late by a few days, but I hope that's alright.

As for who's going to win, it is sort of a mystery since State College will have their full lineup this time, but at the same time I think someone on their team said they don't like PACE format and prefer NAQT. Our A team pretty well likes PACE and has some experience with playing non-20 tu formats at Gonzaga, VHSL, and RM's very PACE-like tournament. RM is more of a speed team, but they definitely should make the final four. RC is a bit of a mystery since they haven't shown up to a major, non NC tournament with their full/nearly full lineup in months, but I predict they'll do well. DCC's speediness and nearly one-man team-ness hurt them, and finally TJ won't have their seniors, so the final four will probably be RM, RC, MLW, and State College. Between those four it's very close to call. As for dark horses, it's hard to foresee many because the big darkhorse teams at NAQT won't be there. Gonzaga, and perhaps Centennial, should do very well though, and could possibly upset some of the top teams.
Matt Morrison, William & Mary '10, Tour Guide &c., MA in History '12?

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Post by First Chairman »

Well, let me know... I have been contacted by another legitimate team who wants to be team 30.
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Post by jbarnes112358 »

When I look at the PACE field, it is quite a bit smaller than HSNCT but every bit as competitive. It is quite possibly a stronger field top to bottom. The top 4 teams from NAQT are there (RM A, SC A, MW A, and DCC). In addition, 7. TJ A, 12. Dupont, 14. SC B, 16. Walter Johnson, 16. MW B, 25. TJ B, 37. Brindlee Mtn. A and 37. Apollo. Also a solid Fort Mill who was 5-5, MW C 5-5, and Brindlee B 4-6.

Add to these some strong teams that did NOT go to Chicago. Raleigh Charter could easily have been top 5 at NAQT. Walton is a perennial powerhouse. Eleanor Roosevelt, Centenniel, and Gonzaga, are power teams from the greater DC area. RM B is without doubt one of the top two or three B teams in the nation. I don't know as much about some of the others like Indian Springs or Hardee, but I am glad Hardee gets to compete for real this time.

This is a small but powerful collection of teams. It should be interesting.
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I will only make general remarks, but PACE has always had smaller fields than NAQT because of the logistics issues. But I will say that top-to-bottom I'm very happy with the competitiveness of the field as it has kept up to the expectations of the history of the NSC. All the contenders will have challenging schedules (since you have to imagine how to set up all these really good teams into three divisions with everyone playing 9 games) on day 1, and that sets up the schedule for day 2.

I'm sure there will be a few surprise results and some great matchups. Now I don't know how the rosters would change if at all, but the NSC legacy is intact: there is no bracket of death, they're all brackets of death.
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Post by quizbowllee »

E.T. Chuck wrote:I will only make general remarks, but PACE has always had smaller fields than NAQT because of the logistics issues. But I will say that top-to-bottom I'm very happy with the competitiveness of the field as it has kept up to the expectations of the history of the NSC. All the contenders will have challenging schedules (since you have to imagine how to set up all these really good teams into three divisions with everyone playing 9 games) on day 1, and that sets up the schedule for day 2.

I'm sure there will be a few surprise results and some great matchups. Now I don't know how the rosters would change if at all, but the NSC legacy is intact: there is no bracket of death, they're all brackets of death.
Any idea when we might see these brackets of death? Or are we going to see them for the first time in North Carolina?
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Post by Byko »

quizbowllee wrote:Any idea when we might see these brackets of death? Or are we going to see them for the first time in North Carolina?
The selection committee (another word for myself) has constructed the brackets, and they have been approved. You should first see them down in North Carolina.
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The followup... we still have to finalize the schedule. Hence, that's why we hold releasing the group assignments. The scheduled release time of all brackets and schedules should be Saturday morning between 7:30 and 9:00 am. We could of course post the group assignments earlier and leave the schedules to Saturday... we'll see.

The history: I don't exactly remember, but when I ran the NSC back in 1998, it was also a World Cup year, and I remember a lot of people (including Samer and Bykowski) saying how each division in that year's competition was its own Group of Death. Therefore, I made the proclamation that we take care to never have a single Group of Death at the NSC (unlike the World Cup that always seems to have one)... that ideally every bracket was its own Group of Death.

And for the most part, we've been very good making each division as fair as possible geographically (pre tournament) and statistically (based on available data and evaluated according to post hoc stats).

All I can say is that even with our small field, the best play and prove themselves here (whether the teams are currently the best or they aspire to be the best).
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