2015 CO Visual Arts

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Re: 2015 CO Visual Arts

Post by Camille Palkia »

Hey! I want to play this! Contact me if you want to be my teammate.
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Re: 2015 CO Visual Arts

Post by Sima Guang Hater »

I'll staff this
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Re: 2015 CO Visual Arts

Post by Excelsior (smack) »

I will also staff this.
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Re: 2015 CO Visual Arts

Post by armitage »

I'd also like to staff this if there's need.
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Re: 2015 CO Visual Arts

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Andrew Wang and I have agreed to lose games together
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Re: 2015 CO Visual Arts

Post by gyre and gimble »

Yes, I'll need at least 9 staffers other than myself (assuming the field fills) so please let me know or post in this thread if you're available! Although I suppose I can conscript bye-round players to read, I'll still need 10 total laptops.

I'd also like to note that Doug Graebner has graciously stepped in to help me write this set.
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Re: 2015 CO Visual Arts

Post by Megachile dupla »

I can also staff this.
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Re: 2015 CO Visual Arts

Post by Muriel Axon »

I can staff if needed.
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Re: 2015 CO Visual Arts

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I, too, can staff.
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Re: 2015 CO Visual Arts

Post by Cheynem »

What is the cost of this event?
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Re: 2015 CO Visual Arts

Post by gyre and gimble »

This event will be $10 per player.

Right now there are 26 people signed up and 9 more who have expressed interest. If everyone plays, that should fill the 18 team field. If you're one of those 9, please post in this thread sooner rather than later. Some of you are definitely going to be at CO right? If you want, I can arbitrarily assign teams, but it isn't terribly difficult to just message each other.

I might end up producing fewer packets if fewer packets are required. (Though I'll probably still write some extra packets after CO so the set feels more complete.)
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Re: 2015 CO Visual Arts

Post by MLafer »

I am playing this with Connor Teevens
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Re: 2015 CO Visual Arts

Post by Captain Sinico »

Sorry if this was unclear: I'm 100% certain to be at CO and I definitely want to play this, so please put me down for a team. If people from the "Interest" list want to contact me to form a duo, please do!
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Re: 2015 CO Visual Arts

Post by gyre and gimble »

So we're at 15 teams now. I'd love to get this up to 16.

And if you can staff, please let me know! I'm going to need at least (2/3) more people to run a (16/18)-team event.

EDIT: Corrected the number of staff needed because I didn't notice other posts in this thread.
Last edited by gyre and gimble on Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 2015 CO Visual Arts

Post by Wynaut »

I'll put myself on the "expressing interest" list. I probably won't do well if I do play, but it's an area I'd like to tackle at some point.

EDIT: I can also staff if needed.
Last edited by Wynaut on Mon Jun 29, 2015 11:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2015 CO Visual Arts

Post by Smuttynose Island »

I'd also like to express interest in playing this tournament. I'm up for staffing though if it makes things run smoother.
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Re: 2015 CO Visual Arts

Post by Unicolored Jay »

I'll most definitely be at CO, and am still looking for a teammate!
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Re: 2015 CO Visual Arts

Post by Ndg »

I'll staff this.
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Re: 2015 CO Visual Arts

Post by Charbroil »

gyre and gimble wrote:So we're at 15 teams now. I'd love to get this up to 16.
Seth Ebner and I would like to be your 16th team, assuming you still have an opening.
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Re: 2015 CO Visual Arts

Post by gyre and gimble »

Okay, unless two more teams sign up within June, I'm going to close the field at 16. (Mike and Jasper, you guys are now a team, assuming you haven't found teammates.)

I'm doing this because:
1. Having to write 1 or 2 fewer packets will make things a lot more manageable for me (which isn't to say that I can't do the full 10 if an 18-team field fills).
2. The schedule is already pretty crowded so 1 or 2 fewer rounds is nice.

Given this, I'd much rather run a 16-team event than an 18-team event, so at this point please sign up only if you were really counting on playing this event and for some reason haven't registered yet. (In other words, don't sign up if the motivation is "More quizbowl, why not?")
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Re: 2015 CO Visual Arts

Post by Captain Sinico »

Kelly Tourdot and I arranged to team up a couple days ago.
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Re: 2015 CO Visual Arts

Post by Cheynem »

Dan Puma isn't at CO anymore if that helps in team formation.
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Re: 2015 CO Visual Arts

Post by gyre and gimble »

Oh okay, in that case Jasper and Jerry are now a team.
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Re: 2015 CO Visual Arts

Post by Perturbed Secretary Bird »

I know it's ridiculously late, but I'd really like to play or even just staff if possible.
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Re: 2015 CO Visual Arts

Post by Lighthouse Expert Elinor DeWire »

I can staff this!
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Re: 2015 CO Visual Arts

Post by gyre and gimble »

Okay, the field is now closed. If anyone wants to drop out, please let me and Athena know so she can take your spot.

The format is the same as before, with two brackets doing a round robin in the prelims and a final. Ties in records will be broken either on a half or full packet (depending on how many questions get written) if it matters for the finals. Otherwise, points per game will be used. There will not be extra tiebreaker questions, so ties will be entered into the stats. There will also be crossover games so everyone can play the finals packet, though teams may opt out (and forfeit) if they wish to watch the final instead.

I need some help making the brackets though, since visual arts knowledge isn't something that has been widely discussed or tested in recent years. I'm considering having everyone playing just submit a ranked ballot, but if there are less tedious ways of doing this please let me know.
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Re: 2015 CO Visual Arts

Post by Camille Palkia »

gyre and gimble wrote:Okay, the field is now closed. If anyone wants to drop out, please let me and Athena know so she can take your spot.

The format is the same as before, with two brackets doing a round robin in the prelims and a final. Ties in records will be broken either on a half or full packet (depending on how many questions get written) if it matters for the finals. Otherwise, points per game will be used. There will not be extra tiebreaker questions, so ties will be entered into the stats. There will also be crossover games so everyone can play the finals packet, though teams may opt out (and forfeit) if they wish to watch the final instead.

I need some help making the brackets though, since visual arts knowledge isn't something that has been widely discussed or tested in recent years. I'm considering having everyone playing just submit a ranked ballot, but if there are less tedious ways of doing this please let me know.
Pardon me for not checking the boards constantly, but I expressed interest in this tournament, am attending CO, and still want to play it. Nothing against Athena, but shouldn't the first free spot be given out in order that people expressed interest? Additionally, if Athena and I are both interested, can two more people just step forward to round this out?
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Re: 2015 CO Visual Arts

Post by gyre and gimble »

The field will stay at 16 because I want to write 9 packets and don't want to burn a round on odd numbered brackets. The waitlist will be people who have unequivocally signed up to play this, and then people who expressed interest but have done little to follow up with me personally, post in this thread, or find a teammate so they could actually register. This means that the waitlist is Athena, then you, by virtue of your latest post in this thread. My reasoning was:

1. I posted several times asking people who expressed interest to form teams, otherwise they wouldn't be playing.
2. Jasper and Athena both posted after this, indicating they would definitely play.
3. Jasper was first of the two, so he got Dan's spot.
4. Kenji and Daniel posted merely expressing interest, so they were not given priority.

As for filling in the 18-team field:

5. I'd rather this not happen.
6. You'd need two more people anyway unless you're proposing that people play solo.
7. The reason I even left a short window open in the first place instead of shrinking the field immediately was precisely so that people like yourself who actually cared about playing this event would form teams. As you can see from this thread, the field only filled to 16 at my recent prompting and encouragement. I don't think I'm being overly harsh here.

I don't expect everyone to agree that this is the best way to do things, but I hope it seems reasonable, or reasoned at least. I mean, sorry you won't be able to play, really. But I don't think it's official practice to give much weight to "expressed interest" posts. People have to actually register. Maybe someone less interested in playing will drop out and you'll have a spot.
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Re: 2015 CO Visual Arts

Post by Captain Sinico »

Thanks for writing and running this and sorry it's landed you with this problem. I guess it's a good thing that so many people want to play your tournament - I know I'm looking forward to it!

Maybe I can help you square this circle some. You could try a different schedule of some form, assuming you can get enough more people. If you want to e-mail me, I can help you with that.

You might also let some teams add a third player to accommodate interested people who currently can't play. I, for one, am playing this for fun - I'd love to win and am sure going to try, but it's not going to spoil my year if some teams have 3 players, even should one of them win. So, on balance, I'd rather people get to play than the "2 to a team" rule be strictly enforced, if those are the only alternatives.
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Re: 2015 CO Visual Arts

Post by gyre and gimble »

I don't think there's so much interest that it's worth going with a different schedule. But if there are no strong objections, I'll open this up to a doubles or triples event. Thanks, Mike, I hadn't thought of that option.

I will not arbitrarily add people to existing teams though. Those who still wish to play should find teams to join and post in this thread.

If there are an excessive number of three person teams, I may rethink the format.
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Re: 2015 CO Visual Arts

Post by Camille Palkia »

gyre and gimble wrote:The field will stay at 16 because I want to write 9 packets and don't want to burn a round on odd numbered brackets. The waitlist will be people who have unequivocally signed up to play this, and then people who expressed interest but have done little to follow up with me personally, post in this thread, or find a teammate so they could actually register. This means that the waitlist is Athena, then you, by virtue of your latest post in this thread. My reasoning was:

1. I posted several times asking people who expressed interest to form teams, otherwise they wouldn't be playing.
2. Jasper and Athena both posted after this, indicating they would definitely play.
3. Jasper was first of the two, so he got Dan's spot.
4. Kenji and Daniel posted merely expressing interest, so they were not given priority.

As for filling in the 18-team field:

5. I'd rather this not happen.
6. You'd need two more people anyway unless you're proposing that people play solo.
7. The reason I even left a short window open in the first place instead of shrinking the field immediately was precisely so that people like yourself who actually cared about playing this event would form teams. As you can see from this thread, the field only filled to 16 at my recent prompting and encouragement. I don't think I'm being overly harsh here.

I don't expect everyone to agree that this is the best way to do things, but I hope it seems reasonable, or reasoned at least. I mean, sorry you won't be able to play, really. But I don't think it's official practice to give much weight to "expressed interest" posts. People have to actually register. Maybe someone less interested in playing will drop out and you'll have a spot.
I'm glad that you're willing to reconsider, but for what its worth, I'm not at all satisfied by your initial resolution. I didn't realize I needed any more qualification than "I want to play this" to express my interest - the language is pretty clear, I'm attending CO proper, my packet has been submitted for some time. Making successive posting necessary to secure a spot in a field is unevenly beneficial to people who play actively and check the boards all the time. I do not play actively. I work every day. I felt pretty confident that my interest had been noted since you had put my name in your own post - so why should I keep coming back to this topic to check if you've decided to arbitrarily disregard my interest? I understand the desire to remove people from a waitlist who are not "actually" interested in playing, but why should that toss out the order that people have come to you with interest altogether? What was the point of me ever expressing interest if the clock would restart the second you decide to close the field? Above all, I've gotten back to you within 4 days of your decision to close the field - and that is too slow to make my having ever posted worth anything, in favor of someone who never expressed interest at all until after you decide to close the field?
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Re: 2015 CO Visual Arts

Post by gyre and gimble »

S.P.A.C.E. wrote:I'm glad that you're willing to reconsider, but for what its worth, I'm not at all satisfied by your initial resolution. I didn't realize I needed any more qualification than "I want to play this" to express my interest - the language is pretty clear, I'm attending CO proper, my packet has been submitted for some time. Making successive posting necessary to secure a spot in a field is unevenly beneficial to people who play actively and check the boards all the time. I do not play actively. I work every day. I felt pretty confident that my interest had been noted since you had put my name in your own post - so why should I keep coming back to this topic to check if you've decided to arbitrarily disregard my interest? I understand the desire to remove people from a waitlist who are not "actually" interested in playing, but why should that toss out the order that people have come to you with interest altogether? What was the point of me ever expressing interest if the clock would restart the second you decide to close the field? Above all, I've gotten back to you within 4 days of your decision to close the field - and that is too slow to make my having ever posted worth anything, in favor of someone who never expressed interest at all until after you decide to close the field?
I mean, like I said before, this is a doubles event so unless you find a teammate your posting in this thread is not very relevant. Just because you're playing CO proper doesn't mean you were still interested in this event, and I took the lack of team formation (for a month and a half now, but more importantly with less than three weeks left to go before the tournament) to mean a lapse in interest. It wasn't just the one post I made about closing the field. The last few teams to sign up needed prodding from me, starting June 21. People had plenty of time between then and when I actually closed the field to find teammates. Making sure teams are actually formed shouldn't be the responsibility of the TD. So I don't know what to tell you--in the future don't rely too much on an expression of interest that is not binding in any way, I guess? "I want to play this" to me is not equivalent to "I will play this."
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Re: 2015 CO Visual Arts

Post by Captain Sinico »

The takeaway from this is: take registrations for teams, not interest. Since it wasn't clear which was wanted when, you two had different ideas of what each of you meant. There's no satisfactory resolution to that problem, so you have to fix this as best you can, and then do it better next time.
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Re: 2015 CO Visual Arts

Post by Camille Palkia »

gyre and gimble wrote:
S.P.A.C.E. wrote:I'm glad that you're willing to reconsider, but for what its worth, I'm not at all satisfied by your initial resolution. I didn't realize I needed any more qualification than "I want to play this" to express my interest - the language is pretty clear, I'm attending CO proper, my packet has been submitted for some time. Making successive posting necessary to secure a spot in a field is unevenly beneficial to people who play actively and check the boards all the time. I do not play actively. I work every day. I felt pretty confident that my interest had been noted since you had put my name in your own post - so why should I keep coming back to this topic to check if you've decided to arbitrarily disregard my interest? I understand the desire to remove people from a waitlist who are not "actually" interested in playing, but why should that toss out the order that people have come to you with interest altogether? What was the point of me ever expressing interest if the clock would restart the second you decide to close the field? Above all, I've gotten back to you within 4 days of your decision to close the field - and that is too slow to make my having ever posted worth anything, in favor of someone who never expressed interest at all until after you decide to close the field?
I mean, like I said before, this is a doubles event so unless you find a teammate your posting in this thread is not very relevant. Just because you're playing CO proper doesn't mean you were still interested in this event, and I took the lack of team formation (for a month and a half now, but more importantly with less than three weeks left to go before the tournament) to mean a lapse in interest. It wasn't just the one post I made about closing the field. The last few teams to sign up needed prodding from me, starting June 21. People had plenty of time between then and when I actually closed the field to find teammates. Making sure teams are actually formed shouldn't be the responsibility of the TD. So I don't know what to tell you--in the future don't rely too much on an expression of interest that is not binding in any way, I guess? "I want to play this" to me is not equivalent to "I will play this."
The fundamental point I'm making here is that if anyone if waiting to sub into a vacated spot, it should be me and not Athena (no offense Athena). I got on your own list to be paired with someone whether you're willing to acknowledge it or not months ago, and Athena expressed no interest until you closed the field.
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Re: 2015 CO Visual Arts

Post by naan/steak-holding toll »

I think the best solution is to have a sort of "gentleman's agreement" whereby the stronger teams don't take on additional players and the weaker teams can have more people. This doesn't precisely jive with Stephen's original plan for this to be a doubles tournament, but it does give everyone who wants an opportunity a chance to play and probably won't substantively affect who actually ends up winning the tournament.

I suppose the relative strength of visual arts players isn't as known as that of, say, history players, but I think some reasonable inferences from public knowledge can be made as to who the stronger teams are (Auroni/John to take an obvious example). Meanwhile, I don't think Andrew and my chance of winning the tournament would substantially increase from asymptotically near zero (more my fault than his) unless we picked up an absolute all-star.
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Re: 2015 CO Visual Arts

Post by Cheynem »

Wouldn't the most logical option be to assign the third player to the teams ranked "lowest" when you do your seeding (although this would render them I guess non lowest seed anyway)?
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Re: 2015 CO Visual Arts

Post by gyre and gimble »

As for who plays with who, I like the gentlemen's agreement idea. (You're probably right, Mike C., but I don't want to force people into teams unless as a last resort.) If you're a really strong team, don't take on another player. Otherwise, play with who you want. Please do this soon so I can work on bracketing. I'll set the deadline for third-player registrations as Saturday, July 11. At that point, if you're on the waitlist, I will arbitrarily add people to teams.
S.P.A.C.E. wrote:The fundamental point I'm making here is that if anyone if waiting to sub into a vacated spot, it should be me and not Athena (no offense Athena). I got on your own list to be paired with someone whether you're willing to acknowledge it or not months ago, and Athena expressed no interest until you closed the field.
I think you're misunderstanding what the "expressed interest" list meant. I included a parenthetical explanation right above the list of names, saying that the list was for the purpose of notifying people of who they might want to contact to form teams. That didn't mean that if you contacted someone on the list, you were guaranteed to play with them, because they might say no, or they might not be interested in playing anymore. There's nothing else for me to acknowledge, because you're giving the list characteristics that didn't exist. It was not a queue for people to be paired. It was not a waitlist. A waitlist started existing when I closed the field, and Athena was the first person to unequivocally claim a spot. Does this clear up your concern with arbitrariness?

And to make a more general point, I was under the impression that common practice on these forums is that posts expressing interest do not count as any form of registration (outside of singles events, in which case people are actually registering, and not just expressing interest). It's the players' responsibility to sign up and form teams; posting about your wanting to play something doesn't really entitle you to anything unless you act on it. From what I can tell, you didn't until today, so today is when you get added to the waitlist.

This is all probably moot though, so I'm not going to address this particular situation any further. But I'd be interested to hear from other citizens of hsquizbowl whether I'm wrong about giving little weight to "expressing interest"-type posts, because otherwise that is how I will treat situations like these in the future. I think that's the most sensible approach unless there's some accepted common practice that I'm not aware of.
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Re: 2015 CO Visual Arts

Post by Perturbed Secretary Bird »

Charles Hang and Seth have very kindly let me join their team, if that's ok. Sorry for causing so much scheduling uproar!
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P. L. Dunbar '14
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Smuttynose Island
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Re: 2015 CO Visual Arts

Post by Smuttynose Island »

Since it doesn't appear as if you need me to staff, I would like o claim a spot on the wait list.
Daniel Hothem
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itsthatoneguy
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Re: 2015 CO Visual Arts

Post by itsthatoneguy »

I will no longer be in town this weekend, so please remove me from the "Interested" list.

Thanks!
Bryan Berend
Detroit Catholic Central '09
Michigan '13
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Wynaut
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Re: 2015 CO Visual Arts

Post by Wynaut »

I misunderstood what the "expressed interest" list entailed, so I'll sign up for the waitlist again.
Kenji Shimizu
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Maxwell Sniffingwell
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Re: 2015 CO Visual Arts

Post by Maxwell Sniffingwell »

I'd also like to get on the waitlist.
Greg Peterson

Northwestern University '18
Lawrence University '11
Maine South HS '07

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gyre and gimble
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Re: 2015 CO Visual Arts

Post by gyre and gimble »

Just a reminder that this is the last day to add a third person to your team.

I've come up with preliminary brackets, which I will post on Sunday, once I've decided which teams will gain players from the waitlist. I don't want to deal with something more complicated, but I also want to avoid major bracketing issues. So what I'm going to do is ask anyone who feels strongly about the brackets I post to message me or email me privately, and I'll hear you out.
Stephen Liu
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Nabonidus
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Re: 2015 CO Visual Arts

Post by Nabonidus »

I think I've been added to the staffers list erroneously since I've never posted in this thread before... but I am actually willing to staff this.
Derek So
McGill
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Masked Canadian History Bandit
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Re: 2015 CO Visual Arts

Post by Masked Canadian History Bandit »

I can staff this if you still need staff.
Patrick Liao
Lisgar Collegiate Institute 2011, University of Pennsylvania 2015, University of Toronto Faculty of Law 2019
gyre and gimble
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Re: 2015 CO Visual Arts

Post by gyre and gimble »

Nabonidus wrote:I think I've been added to the staffers list erroneously since I've never posted in this thread before... but I am actually willing to staff this.
Oh shit, sorry dude. I mixed you up with Joe Su, the other guy from your school with a short name.
Stephen Liu
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Sam
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Re: 2015 CO Visual Arts

Post by Sam »

Masked Canadian History Bandit wrote:I can staff this if you still need staff.
I'm also available to staff if you need it.
Sam Bailey
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Chicago '13
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1.82
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Re: 2015 CO Visual Arts

Post by 1.82 »

At this point I'm not certain I'll be able to staff, so if one of the other people who have expressed interest were to replace me, that would be ideal.
Naveed Chowdhury
Maryland '16
Georgia Tech '17
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Nabonidus
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Re: 2015 CO Visual Arts

Post by Nabonidus »

gyre and gimble wrote:
Nabonidus wrote:I think I've been added to the staffers list erroneously since I've never posted in this thread before... but I am actually willing to staff this.
Oh shit, sorry dude. I mixed you up with Joe Su, the other guy from your school with a short name.
No worries. I only noticed it while coming to check if you needed any more volunteers in the first place.
Derek So
McGill
gyre and gimble
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Re: 2015 CO Visual Arts

Post by gyre and gimble »

Here are the brackets and teams:

Auroni Gupta / John Lawrence
Rob Carson / Ike Jose
Mike Bentley / Evan Adams
Matt Jackson / Chris Ray
Will Holub-Moorman / Jacob Reed
Will Alston / Andrew Wang / Kenji Golimlim
Charles Hang / Seth Ebner / Athena Kern
Chris Borglum / Billy Beyer / Foster Hughes

Tommy Casalaspi / Matt Bollinger
Will Nediger / Saajid Moyen
Andrew Hart / Trevor Davis
Mike Sorice / Kelly Tourdot
Jordan Brownstein / Chris Manners
Jasper Lee / Jerry Vinokurov
Mike Cheyne / Dylan Minarik / Greg Peterson
Matt Lafer / Connor Teevens / Daniel Hothem

If you think I've made some grave error here, contact me privately and I will consider what you have to say, though I probably won't change much. I won't be responding to your messages, but rest assured that I will have read them. I will not consider what people post in this thread about the brackets because I don't want a big debate about who's better than who at visual arts--that's what this side event is for.
Stephen Liu
Torrey Pines '10
Harvard '14
Stanford '17
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