Illinois 05-06

[First Chairman]

I see Mr. R has voted NT #2 on his latest BCS ballot. (for those who don't follow sports: cf Mack Brown's last BCS coaches poll ballot)

[Tegan]

Has anybody noticed that New Trier is down this year? Those kids couldn't answer a math or world history tossup if their lives depended on it. When you compare them to Maine East, Deerfield, Loyola, and an up-and-coming Maine South team, you can't help but predict that their presence in the state tournament will be short.

The worst day for the NTHBT is still better than the best days on a vast majority of the teams in Illinois. The NTHBT may be down (and not really having seen them, I cannot pass a credible judgement) compared to previous NTHBT's of the past, but NTHBT has placed in the top 10 at a few tournaments this year, and put two in the final nine of the Schobo Solo, and that means that they may be down....but not down and out. I maintain my respect, and not just a healthy competitive respect, my full respect for this program.

This ad spoonsored by the 2005 New Trier Varsity Tournament: The only time you will ever come to New Trier with a guarrantee that you are walking out without a loss to the Trevians. Also sponsored by Matsumura Fishworks.

[Trevkeeper]

Nevermind.

Now back to your regularly scheduled Illinois programming.

[David Riley]

Hmmm..for a moment there, I wondered if that were really Mr. Reinstein's post.

[mlaird]

Trev-keeper! Did you hack into your coaches account!? Shame on you.

I do wish to chime in and say that I believe our sectional will be the bloodbath sectional this year. And NT, you're so hard on yourself. While your perennial strength of math doesn't seem to have returned, it sure seems like you guys are dang good; I mean, Fremd narrowly edged you out in the semifinals there last weekend. And had it not been for that one tough final match in the morning, you would've been number one seed far and away. But enough NT praising. You'd think that I wasn't really a Rambler.

End of Line.

[Trevkeeper]

Hmmm..for a moment there, I wondered if that were really Mr. Reinstein's post.

I'm wondering the exact same thing.

And for the record, it's not me, Matt. I have a class at 7:41 am.

[mlaird]

And for the record, it's not me, Matt. I have a class at 7:41 am.

That's Mr. Laird!

[TeachMe]

I agree that New Trier always has one of the toughest programs in the state, and we have to face them in our conference every year. I am sure that Cliff's departure has left a hole in the math program, but I also know that it won't take long for that hole to be filled. Mr. Reinstein is a quality coach, and so I have no doubt that any frustrations felt will be quickly corrected.

[popculture]

Good work, gang!

Mr. Reinstein's attempt to give his team "bulletin board material" (as Mr. Egan alluded to in his previous post) was foiled by our flattering eulogies for an obviously alive-and-kicking program.

[mrs. dalloway]

Results from Rockford Boylan (12/10):

1: Auburn (without Tyler, I must add)
2: Maine East (without Erin Li)
3: IMSA
4: Byron (with two people! but wait, one was Patrick Shanley)

Winnebago, Moline, and Boylan also made it to the afternoon; right now I can't remember the last team from the top 8, sorry.

[JWyPlatinum]

Four teams were supposed to compete, but one pulled out. So, here are the other results. This was not really a tournament, but more like a little get-together.

Varsity:
1 Bloomington
2 Morton
3 Combination team of Morton and Bloomington players
4 Pekin

JV:
1 Bloomington
2 Pekin A
3 Morton
4 Pekin B

Toss-Ups:
Morton, Jordan Wiley 16
Bloomington, Kristina Warren 11
Combo team, Morton player (Kelsey Heffren) 5
Pekin, Emily? (wow, am I bad at remembering names) 5

Side-note: Kristina Warren 11, Hunter Fast 10, Vikram Karandikar (sp?) 8 or 9. Different team, different winner.
Side-note 2: Bloomington 295, Morton 155
Purple People-Eaters? I would most definitely agree.

[mlaird]

Another tournament from today:

Sterling F/S:

1.) Wheaton North 'A' (with some guy that I think might've won the solo among illinois competition)
2.) Loyola 'A'
3.) Auburn 'A'
4.) Latin

I'm not sure, I wasn't really paying attention, but I think the 3-4 spots might be switched.

[Irreligion in Bangladesh]

Results from Rockford Boylan (12/10):

1: Auburn (without Tyler, I must add)
2: Maine East (without Erin Li)
3: IMSA
4: Byron (with two people! but wait, one was Patrick Shanley)

Winnebago, Moline, and Boylan also made it to the afternoon; right now I can't remember the last team from the top 8, sorry.

The last was Hoffman Estates A, the team Byron beat in the quarterfinals. Byron had two players before lunch to get to the afternoon, though Patrick Shanley is a good enough player, he probably could have done it himself anyway.

I've never been so angry with a tournament before in my life. This was very possibly the worst organized event I have ever attended. There were no moderators provided until the afternoon, so coaches were forced to moderate (I know this is common in some areas, but Boylan's been doing this for many years, their parent base should be large enough to provide fifteen moderators). The afternoon moderation was not exactly an improvement, as our moderator looked nervous and sheepish, as though she had never moderated before. This was proven when she didn't understand (neither at first, nor after being told by me, a math teacher, and 75% of IMSA, a school that is probably pretty decent at math) that "4e^4x" was the same as "4*e^4x" (i.e. they said "4e" instead of 4 times e"), nor that the complement of the supplement of 140 was not, in fact, 58. Whether or not she is good at math is irrelevant. She wasted fifteen total minutes on these two questions, standing by the fact that the packet said what it said and that it must be correct until she was overrun by a screaming horde of unhappy players, coaches, parents, and spectators. She also screwed up a bonus by reading the answers prematurely after IMSA had gotten it and before our rebound, a move that cost us 30 points. I understand that moderators are not infallible. I do not understand how she was considered one of the four best available to Boyland for moderation in the afternoon.

The students that scored and timed were just that: students, who had no idea what Scholastic Bowl was and were doing it to get extra credit in their physics class (as one of Boylan's coaches teaches Physics...I don't know how common this is, but I've never seen it before, and apparently with good reason: of the four students that worked matches I was involved with, two did not know how to add and one relied on the other (the 'official' scorer) to do boardscore, which resulted as being often a tossup or more behind...one was very belligerent about not timing, though all she was doing was keeping boardscore (and not doing a very good job on that, as mentioned before).

The pools were horrendous. Our pool had no one of any difficulty (yet)...Rock Island (who admitted that we were their first game this year), Princeton (who talked constantly, and gave up by tossup four in every game they played), Hoffman Estates' B team, Dixon (coached by a teacher's aide who had never moderated before in his life, and {not suprisingly} cost us a tossup by reading the answer out loud when he tried to recognize me), and Harlem, a team that is on the path to being good if their coach, Jeremy Bois, follows the path he is apparently following. They're a young team, and they could be good if he pushes them. These five teams scored a combined 2500 points: the same as Auburn (without Tyler, as mentioned) and Bago (without Madeline Dillner, our super-sophomore and biology player) combined.

Speaking of Auburn, it is a testament to that entire team that they were able to dismantle their pool so handily without Tyler. Their pool consisted of two lesser teams, plus Auburn, IMSA, Maine South, and Streator; three of these teams could have won any pool they were put in, and Streator could have put together a wild-card bid had they been in a pool that allowed them to score points. Maine South was unable to score points due to the abnormally large quantity of even matches, and lost out on a wild card spot. IMSA was only marginally better points-wise, and did get a wild card spot, but due to the number of close games, they only mustered a seven-seed. They were able to beat teams like Maine South and Streator (This is a guess, as the wins and losses were not posted, only points...you could not tell who had played whom without a schedule and some luck), and were given a seven seed, whereas Hoffman Estates was able to score points against lower teams and walk into a five seed. There is nothing that anyone can argue that says Hoffman Estates is a better team than IMSA, and that was proven when Patrick Shanley and (I don't know who the other player was) beat them in the quarterfinals, the same packet where IMSA defeated us. Had we played any other team (other than Auburn, but no amount of corruption could place 1 vs. 2 in the first round), we would have scored 200 or more, much higher than any non-Auburn score. Our 155 points, forty less than IMSA, is not indicative of anything other than IMSA was better at that packet of questions than we were.

Which brings me to my final point, the point many of you have known was coming all along (if you have experience with the Boylan tournament or others in the area): the questions. This is not just an argument of "IMSA won because the questions were trivial/obscure/not well written/anything". This is an argument that every packet I played in that tournament was a travesty, littered with typos that math players were astounded at, especially when moderators believed them as truth (see above). This is not Boylan's problem, it is the question supplier's problem. The questions asked were pointless, as usual: no one in Scholastic Bowl cares what the process of wetting and pressing wool is called, nor does anyone care what a balance sheet is, nor does anyone care (anymore) about how many years one must be a US citizen to become a Representative, the author of Maggie, the orders certain species belong to, or (and this is a big one) how to do derivatives. Winnebago scored 75 points in the morning rounds simply on finding the first derivative and (sometimes) setting it equal to zero and solving. What's worse is that half of my team has just finished this in their Algebra 2.5 class, and Scholastic Bowl considers it Calculus.

The questions we play are moronic and juvenile. They offer a single clue most of the time, and this clue provides a simple buzzer race among good players and dumbing silence to bad players. These questions offer nothing to study, as you cannot go in-depth in study when the in-depth information will not come up in matches. For the very seldom questions that run two sentences long, the first sentence contains "clues" that do not narrow down the list of potential answers, and in some rare cases, eliminate the actual answer itself before asking the question.

There are better questions out there. Apparently NAQT sent a mailing to all coaches, saying that A: NAQT will write in our format, B: they have fifty packets available for practice at a total of 135 dollars (less than 3 dollars per packet!), and C: they will write in our format for tournaments. They sent a sample packet along with the mailing to allow coaches and players to judge the quality of the questions for themselves. My friends, this packet was at absolutely the level of play we should be striving for. I'm convinced that every tossup was an academic subject taken straight from an IHSA packet, but elaborated on, expanded, so that knowledge could be applied to answer it before the FTP note, where the original question was asked. Math questions were all story problems, requiring knowledge of the process AND listening skills to understand the problem. This is what we should be working for. This is what we should be playing, teaching our students.

What does it say when we still ask spelling questions? Shouldn't high schoolers know how to spell rationale? What does it say when we ask THREE questions in five rounds on distance between points? Shouldn't we know the distance formula? What does it say when we ask questions about farming and carpentry? Shouldn't we realize that those who answer tossups in Scholastic Bowl are intellectually advanced beyond the lower class of menial jobs? What does it say when math questions can be acceptable like this: "In the curve y=2sin(6x+15pi), find the magnitude of the phase shift? *BUZZ* 2.5 pi "Incorrect, I'll finish the question: Give your answer as an improper fraction."? Are we really that asinine? Are we really inferior to the point that we can't even put rules on answering at the beginning of the question? Are we really that subpar?

I will give you my answer: No, we are not that subpar. My reasoning?

We involves myself.

I'm done with Scholastic Bowl if this trend continues much longer. I have always intended on staying involved, either by coaching, moderating, or the like, after I graduate, but at the moment, the most appealing prospect is that of starting a group at one of the two local colleges to host Scholastic Bowl tournaments every Saturday not already taken by an NAQT tournament or the like for those teams that wish to play good questions.

IHSA has honestly ruined my life. The game that I play every Saturday from October to March has always been this, but I was secluded from the outside world by their restrictions on packets, travel, and the like. ACE camp, the Scobol Solo, podcasts of last year's NAQT HS nationals, the Stanford archive, they all opened my eyes, and I cannot return to the darkness. The knowledge that I have helped to foster a love of something so wretched is a horrible pain on my mind. It kills me to have this knowledge, that I have wasted my high school career doing something so asinine when there is something higher, and it kills me to know that I cannot change anything this late in a year, when I hold no power other than my voice. I know that this year is most likely lost; I have one last hope, that I can convince the coaches either at Auburn, Harlem, Boylan, or Guilford to host an NAQT tournament on such late notice, to expose this area to something Chicagoland is starting to pick up on. It is all I have left to strive for in Scholastic Bowl. What is the point of succeeding, when I know it is poisonous to touch such degrading material?

I ask of you, the coaches and players on the boards, to help me get the movement going in Northern Illinois. If we can convince the strong teams around here (NIC-9, Big Northern) to play NAQT or the like, the rest will follow, as all they could play would be NAQT. These smaller schools would understand the benefits, and spread the word to other small schools around the state. If the movement can get started here, we can win this battle. I need your help. Please, for all that is still good in this game, help win this battle so that others' lives are not ruined the way mine has been.

[solonqb]

Dude. First of all, I feel your pain. OAC was much like this in Ohio. But BREAK UP YOUR POSTS! Not so long.

Secondly, you are taking the right course of action. The only thing that will get IHSSBCA to listen is competition. I helped start a parallel NAQT circuit in my state when I was sick and tired of OAC questions. You guys have the starting material, and I look forward to seeing what comes out if IL HS NAQT in the next few years. Perhaps you can get UChicago to give back to the high school game and host a tournament.

The questions asked were pointless, as usual: no one in Scholastic Bowl cares what the process of wetting and pressing wool is called, nor does anyone care what a balance sheet is, nor does anyone care (anymore) about how many years one must be a US citizen to become a Representative, the author of Maggie, the orders certain species belong to, or (and this is a big one) how to do derivatives. Winnebago scored 75 points in the morning rounds simply on finding the first derivative and (sometimes) setting it equal to zero and solving. What's worse is that half of my team has just finished this in their Algebra 2.5 class, and Scholastic Bowl considers it Calculus.

You will find much of those topics in NAQT, don't bash them. Stick to bashing the style. One you discover ACF, you'll think the same about some of NAQT's math tossups and their notable "chromosome in painting" and "sounds alike" bonuses.

What does it say when we ask questions about farming and carpentry? Shouldn't we realize that those who answer tossups in Scholastic Bowl are intellectually advanced beyond the lower class of menial jobs?

Well-written questions on things involving those jobs can be just as rewarding regardless of their meniality. Thet's not the best attitude to take, although I understand it is colored by your anger.

[mlaird]

The only thing that will get IHSSBCA to listen is competition.

Hey, the IHSSBCA isn't the driving force behind truncated questions and buzzer races. The tournaments that the IHSSBCA runs are well written (thank you Mr. Egan) and run well. The IHSA, the entity that runs the state tournament for scholastic bowl and all other sports, must be what you are thinking of.

What does it say when we ask questions about farming and carpentry? Shouldn't we realize that those who answer tossups in Scholastic Bowl are intellectually advanced beyond the lower class of menial jobs?

I'd say that these questions should be as acceptable as any other misc. questions, as long as they are in moderation. As long as they're replacing questions about Avril Lavigne and The O.C. and not questions about Kafka.

[dtaylor4]

Don't farming and carpentry go under Miscellaneous-Voc Ed anyway? I'm surprised those appeared at a tournament up there. When I was in HS, we got them down here all the time. As for better questions, thank god NAQT is getting involved. UChicago would probably draw a huge pool of teams if they ran tournaments. Down here in Chambana, I personally was surprised at the ratio of northern:(central and southern) teams.

[Summoned Skull]

^ We actually got very few agriculture or carpentry type questions this year Donald, but there was an unusual amount of questions pertaining to local places or events (eg, the Krekels question).

[mrs. dalloway]

I have to admit that we did have Tyler early in the day, like when we played IMSA. He had to leave early, but he did help us rack up enough points to be on our way to first seed.

Brad, I feel the same way...I loved IHSA until ACE camp, the Earlybird, etc. But don't let badly run tournaments get in the way of your enjoyment of your last year of what I know has been a very important and rewarding activity for you. Yeah, Boylan was bad, in general, but it wasn't the fault of any one person or group.

The main problem I see, which has been discussed elsewhere on the boards, is moderator ability. Obviously the moderator you dealt with was inexperienced and ill-informed. The moderator we had in our room was a retired quiz bowl coach, so he knew a bit more (at least he was willing to listen when we had issues with the math, which sadly was quite frequently), but we still had some slip-ups.

And the other issue: keeping the whole tournament on time. IHSA is horrible about that.

I'll mention the NAQT idea to Ms. Greene.

[Stained Diviner]

This was very possibly the worst organized event I have ever attended.

This board just went through a similar issue on the Brindlee Mountain thread. This one won't turn into a flame war because the tournament director does not participate on this board, but it still is a mistake.

When you criticize, you need to be careful. TD's work very hard organizing tournaments, and some people will complain no matter what they do. I have never attended a tournament at Boylan, and for all I know some of your criticisms may be valid, but it is a real mistake to overstate your complaints like that.

Most TD's would put Winnebago in an easy bracket because Winnebago is one of the best-run programs in Illinois and has a stronger team than usual this year. Most tournaments in Illinois make the coaches moderate most of the time. It is hard to find qualified moderators--I usually have trouble getting two of them when I host a Regional. Most people do care what a balance sheet is, and a lot of people care about the Constitution, Stephen Crane, taxonomy, and calculus. If you don't like first derivatives, then stop moving. (Note: Bad joke by me)

Please do not take anything above personally. I agree with a lot of your opinions, and I hope you are serious about improving the activity because you probably could do some good. I just hope that everybody will show some respect to people who run tournaments--the work never ends and the pay never starts. People on this board should also keep in mind that we are generally in the minority in our opinions. When you have two teams that love scholastic bowl and a good moderator, NAQT questions are great. When you have teams that like getting through as many questions as possible or a bad moderator, NAQT questions might not be the way to go.

I have a lot of respect for you, and I often get pretty frustrated myself after tournaments for some of the same reasons you describe. I do not wish you any ill will--in fact, quite the opposite.

[Irreligion in Bangladesh]

Thanks to everyone who posted, and I'm sorry for coming off harshly on the Boylan tournament. While nothing is perfect, the aftertaste it left me was very unfavorable, and it turned into the target of my objection, and for about 95% of it, this was unwarranted; in a smaller percent, I even disagree with myself, as I listed Boylan as a hopeful school to assist with running a good tournament in the future. The tournament was definitely not terrible along the lines of running late, nor formatting, nor most things. I got heated up about the question quality and a few bad moderating errors and started picking hairs out of spite. It was an unfortunate overstatement, and were Boylan here to have seen it, I would apologize to them.

Also, the points everyone made about question topic vs. question style are very valid; I just haven't seen tossups on some of the more questionable topics in NAQT packets before. (Of course, I haven't seen many NAQT packets, so there you go) For the rant about the constitution v. Crane v. bio v. math, I was picking at the style, though you couldn't tell it because I left a big portion of the argument out when I got on about the derivatives: Who cares about these things when you can go in depth. It's in there later, of course, but without it there, I look like I hate all academic fields :)

Don't farming and carpentry go under Miscellaneous-Voc Ed anyway? I'm surprised those appeared at a tournament up there.

Don't forget, Donald, we're not exactly all suburbians up here. We've got about as many small farm communities as you do, so they do come up often; maybe not as much as in central/southern Illinois, but I cannot be sure of that.

Anyway, to keep this from becoming another epic (And I'm sorry about that Noah, I just launched into a stream of conciousness rant and didn't have time to edit it), I'm going to cut it off here. Thank you for all your comments, and sorry again for overblasting Boylan. They really didn't deserve it. (By the way, Mr. Reinstein, I'm using that derivative joke in Calculus sometime this week. It ups my 'Calculus Humor Stockpile' to three, with one joke and two really bad pickup lines.)

[Matt Weiner]

This board just went through a similar issue on the Brindlee Mountain thread. This one won't turn into a flame war because the tournament director does not participate on this board, but it still is a mistake.

I don't think criticizing an event for being terrible and providing copious examples to back that up is the same as accusing someone of cheating based on nothing. It's really not even comparable.

[Tegan]

Comments on the Boylan Tournament:

1. Sorry we (Maine South) was running late. Our bus broke down, but we arrived at 8:55, and the tournament was nice enough to hold. It started a mere five minutes late on the clock.

2. This is the third (and likely final) year we attend. Each of the past three years we attended, we have been in a pool with IMSA and Auburn. Are the pools based on student population? No! Streator and Ottawa were in our pool, and they are much smaller than Maine East and Hoffman Estates and Guilford. Is it based on how "good" a team is. No..... Hoffman, Maine East, Moline, and Winnebago are stellar teams....dare I say, many years, state caliber teams! It has become an exercise of: drive an hour and a half, go 3-2/4-1, and go home while 2-3 lesser teams advance because they faced far easier roads. The total of three wild cards further makes this futile. I know that the Boylan folks work hard to run their tournament...they obviously don't just throw it together, but I can only suspect that the Boylan people have some kind of agenda against my team to do this, and I will not subject them to this in the future. I don't mind tough competition, nad I don't mind losing to superior teams, but this constant dangling the cheese and yanking it away is going to end.

3. I was also a bit befuddled as to why they would not start a round until all other rounds were through. Even though we arguably started later than anyone in round 1, we were always waiting to start after that (and in our rounds we answered an average of 18 out of 20 toss-ups). I can't complain about the timers/scorers. We took some time to educate them, and they were fine the rest of the day. Again though: I (personally) would rather have coaches score and time than people who don't know what to do.

4. To cap off the day (I'm throwing myself under the bus here), Maine South only had one team entered even though I swore that I entered two. The result was that I felt a little guilted into letting others play. I started my reserves against Streator. Big mistake! We only scored 160 points. Homewood-Flossmoor held us to 165 (at least we won). We were glad to get 135 on Auburn. But since I had been to this tournament before, and had seen our team score more and win more, and not advance, I figured our day was over. I played the "B" team for the entire final match against a short handed Ottawa team, and won, 95-75.....only to find out that we finished 5 BLOODY POINTS behind IMSA for a wildcard spot. The same IMSA team we defeated walking away 220-125, running into the room at the last minute in round #1! I wanted to throw a heavy object against the wall, spit nails, and otherwise go David Banner. Now that I see IMSA finished third, I am tearing things off the wall (just tore down some dry wall there, time to stop). A fine example of how NOT to coach a tournament.

Best comment:
"Wow...I thought Auburn was a two person team."
My response: "If you count their starting five as one person, and the next five as another, they are a two person team."

[First Chairman]

As Noah and others have mentioned, the best way to make change in this format is to stay involved after you are no longer high-school eligible. Learn about the game and run tournaments when you are in college. Learn to write questions properly. Develop a critical eye without developing a too-critical tongue (something many of us still work on). Dare to be constructive with criticism and innovative with ideas. Keep your ideals and dreams high, but recognize that change occurs in small steps. And network with others who share your concerns, whether it's with IHSSBCA, ACF, or PACE (we'd love to have you too).

If we get enough people to really care about improving and promoting this activity, perhaps we can really get some things accomplished. :) We know that many of us who have been at it for years would like having the additional allies.

P.S. In reading the comments about this and other tournaments, there is a reason why I am the only person who runs a national who encourages teams to attend the OTHER nationals. It lets me appreciate how well our event is run and focus on improving it further.

And believe it or not, there are tournaments that are worse than this one.

[David Riley]

Brad and others: I will be hosting an Illinois NAQT Sate Qualifier on February 25, 2006. This has been on the IHSSBA Calendar for months, yet no one has mentioned it in this thread. I hosted the first one last year, figuring it was high time we had an NAQT State Qualifier of our own. Last year I "imported" a moderator from Northwestern; wanted to import the guys from U if I but they weren't available. Mr. Egan and Mr. Laird also moderated, and they are experienced. Talk it up! I only had eight teams last year (due to, among other things, a potential Science Bowl conflict), but we had a great time.

On a more personal note, I too feel your pain. I would love it in many ways if my team and I did nothing but NAQT tournaments, there are just two problems: 1) I believe in supporting local tournaments, and the ones at Auburn, Fremd , Fenwick, and Wheaton North, and now New Trier and Maine South, among others, are usually well-run, even though they don't use NAQT questions, and 2) in order to play those NAQT tournaments at present, we would have to go to more out-of-state tournaments. While my adminstration is very supportive, I don't think they would permit me to go to such tournaments, say, every other weekend when there is a tournament twenty miles away--regardless of quality, it wouldn't be cost-effective for the school, much less my budget.

Some time ago, I sugested to some of the more competitive teams that we secede from IHSA. Several of these teams were willing, but then the IHSA leadership changed amd we thought we'd give them a chance. While there is still a lot to do, I have been pleased with the general direction of the IHSA since that time. Let's hope and work for the best.


"This is a revolution, damn it! We're going to have to offend somebody!"

--John Adams in "1776"

[Tegan]

Results from Rockford Boylan (12/10):

1: Auburn (without Tyler, I must add)
2: Maine East (without Erin Li)
3: IMSA
4: Byron (with two people! but wait, one was Patrick Shanley)

Winnebago, Moline, and Boylan also made it to the afternoon; right now I can't remember the last team from the top 8, sorry.

Maine South was unable to score points due to the abnormally large quantity of even matches, and lost out on a wild card spot. IMSA was only marginally better points-wise, and did get a wild card spot, but due to the number of close games, they only mustered a seven-seed. They were able to beat teams like Maine South and Streator (This is a guess, as the wins and losses were not posted, only points...you could not tell who had played whom without a schedule and some luck), and were given a seven seed, whereas Hoffman Estates was able to score points against lower teams and walk into a five seed. There is nothing that anyone can argue that says Hoffman Estates is a better team than IMSA,

As I mentioned in the previous thread (and you qualified yourself), Maine South whomped IMSA. Having played, and been whomped, by Hoffman Estates, I will qualify that Hoffman is better than IMSA, though based on one match at one tournament, that is difficult to say. Hoffman may have been missing people. IMSA may have been missing people. It's always a bit tricky.

I will resound with others Dr. Fischer by saying I too feel the pain. I am not crazy about one liners. I prefer the more pyramidal style of NAQT. There are touranments that do this, and one that I will recommend:
Fenwick runs a touranment in February that they are always looking for teams to sign up for. The competition is right up your alley (in hte past, competitors have included Fenwick, Marist, St. Ignatius, and Fremd, just to drop a few names, though I guarrantee none of them except for Fenwick), and the style of the questions is NAQT. The coaches typically moderate, but since vritually every coach is pretty experienced, there are few complaints. Urge your coach into looking into Fenwick's tournament (based on your previous posts, you might want to not mention the NAQT inspired style).

[potato0328]

I'm not sure if the Fenwick tournament is run through invite or what, but I know that our coach put it on our team's schedule this year, meaning that, as long as nothing weird comes up, we're going.
I can also vouch that Fenwick does have some of the best questions I've come across throughout IHSA, and the small group of teams means that you're playing quality teams all day (similar to Loyola Ultima).

[Trevkeeper]

We played a very close match against a very good Deerfield team today. Going into the last tossup we were down 345-338, and then got the tossup and swept the bonus. Deerfield is a very good team, with a class act too. It's more fun to play against teams like that.

The moral of the story: Deerfield is very good.

[TeachMe]

Trevkeeper,

I think the impression of Deerfield was that it would be nothing without Michael Bilow. While Michael was the best player the Deerfield team has ever known, its current team is definitely strong, as is your team.

[Heilsmoochie]

Results from Peoria County @ Farmington today:

Varsity:
1. Peoria Heights
2. IVC
3. Elmwood
4. Peoria Notre Dame

Peoria Heights barely nipped Elmwood in the Semi-finals. Alex Davis was very good, as expected, but they had a girl on their team that killed us on math. They came out with nine toss-ups to our six (we ran out of bonus-questions, so the match ended after 15) but we were able to convert on bonuses much better than they did. I don't know how much IVC beat PND by, but the championship match was down to the wire, with us edging them out 161-129. On a side note: this is the first time the Heights has ever won the county tournament.

All-Tourney:

1. Dylan Troxel, Peoria Heights - 25
2. Brett Sick, IVC - 18
3. Mike Hahn, IVC - 16
4. Alex David, Elmwood - 11
5. ???, PND - 9

The JV championship went to Limestone by 5(I believe, but I'm not 100% sure on this, but I know it was close) over IVC. First place all-tourney went to a limestone team member with 14. There was a three-way tie for second at 13, I don't remember the other two, but Zack Troxel of Peoria Heights was one.

A well run tournament by Farmington, and on very short notice at that.

[Trevkeeper]

Results:

1. Bloomington
2. Rockford Auburn
3. Wheaton North A
4. Loyola

Individuals:

1. Brad, Winnebago
2. Greg, Wheaton North
3. Justin, Carbondale
4. Matt, Loyola
5. Kristina, Bloomington
5. Brooks, Fenwick

Thank you to all the teams who participated, and to all the moderators (especially Mike Sorice, who came out and did a great job even though he isn't associated with New Trier) as well. Also, thank you to the workers who kept the event running smoothly.

I hope you all had playing as I did moderating/directing, and I hope to see you next year!

[dtaylor4]

How close was the final? I would be surprised if anyone picked Bloomington to win before the tourney started.

[Stained Diviner]

Finals:
Bloomington 207, Auburn 196

Also, we discovered that Tyler from Auburn should have been on the All-Tournament Team.

[GreyGhost06]

The JV championship went to Limestone by 5(I believe, but I'm not 100% sure on this, but I know it was close) over IVC. First place all-tourney went to a limestone team member with 14. There was a three-way tie for second at 13, I don't remember the other two, but Zack Troxel of Peoria Heights was one.

Yeah, IVC lost by five. They lost five points earlier in the match because one of the players blurted an answer. There goes the five points and the match. Jeff Nudd from IVC was on the JV all tournament team as well.

On the varsity side, IVC's lack of a coach on the varisty level cost them in the championship. It's quite difficult to make your case when your coach isn't even in the room and the captain isn't allowed to speak. Quite an interesting spectacle to see.

I believe Sarah Davis from PND was the last Varisty all tournament member

[Irreligion in Bangladesh]

Finals:
Bloomington 207, Auburn 196

Also, we discovered that Tyler from Auburn should have been on the All-Tournament Team.

Yeah, I was surprised he wasn't on...how many tossups did he have?

ETA: Tyler had 22 TU's, I found it on NT's site. Thanks!

Other notes, a hearty congratulations to everyone involved in this tournament. The tossups were the best I've ever played, immense kudos to Carlo, Nick, and Ed. The PLEASE MAKE FUN OF ME BECAUSE I SPEAK NEITHER LATIN NOR ENGLISH were rather easy (I've never seen us sweep 10+ PLEASE MAKE FUN OF ME BECAUSE I SPEAK NEITHER LATIN NOR ENGLISH in a match before, something we did in round 3), but it did not detract from the overall experience. The organization was supreme as always, and huzzah to Lou Malnati's stuffed pizza. That stuff is ambrosia.

Still more...congratulations to Bloomington for doing several things I didn't believe could be done...advancing as well as you did through one of the stronger fields (Fremd and New Trier were (I think) the only big no-shows, NT for an obvious reason)...defeating Auburn (in the finals, no less)...being the first team to do it (Fremd at Ultima doesn't count, in my opinion...we beat Fremd and Bloomington in the same game in that format, it's way too out of whack to consider it a loss), and not being a private/Chicago/both school...and beating Auburn on questions indicative of what is good in quizbowl. You truly benefitted the most of any Illinois team from ACE camp, there cannot be any doubt of this anymore. Kudos to you, and enjoy your year - it should be an amazing run for you guys.

Trev, Carlo, one last congratulations. This tournament was everything I hoped it would be, and everything I hope future tournaments statewide will be. (On that note, an aside to mlaird: I'm not usually on AIM, but you can email me at (my AIM name) at gmail dot com.) I strongly urge -nay, beg- for all teams on the boards to use the packets in practice (when they're posted on NT's site) to see what I ranted about for four hours a few posts ago and join the revolution.

[harpersferry]

The NT tournament went fairly smoothly and I will agree with Brad that the tossups were very good, but the PLEASE MAKE FUN OF ME BECAUSE I SPEAK NEITHER LATIN NOR ENGLISH did not match. Unfortunately for us, Auburn got stung by speed and silly errors several times and it cost us that rather large trophy. I will say good show by Bloomington and I will agree that ACE did wonders for that team. We will need to work on certain things and keep our eye on them, because we've known for a while they could play a good match and this time they won.

That being said, I did not enjoy playing two different teams twice in the same day. A dependent (whether its modified swiss or a recycled bracket) pairing system in the morning will lead to the better teams playing each other. This not only makes for a rough morning, but then in the afternoon bracket they have to play again. Thus we had to play Bloomington twice (we won the first time) and IMSA twice as well. However, we didn't see Wheaton at all. IMO, the normal structure of pools is better even though pool strength can vary. The fact is that swiss works best with a larger pool and no bracket showdown afterwards. Also, the winner of the tournament may not end up with the best record, most points, or a bettter head to head on the second place team. Again, I am not complaining, simply making a point.

Also, the distribution was a bit off. While each category was represented in each round, the difficulty and the subcategories were not. In the first few morning rounds almost every math question was calc, whereas later the distribution favored lower levels. I don't mind either kind per se, but it should be consistent. Also the level of lit did not match that of science or math, especially in PLEASE MAKE FUN OF ME BECAUSE I SPEAK NEITHER LATIN NOR ENGLISH.

Again, I'll say good job to Nick and Carlo. The style and quality they strove for is hard to hit, but it was overall a good experience.

and IHSSBCA questions. wow, can you tell they were written by quiz bowl kids?

[Stained Diviner]

I did not enjoy playing two different teams twice in the same day.

This is a fair criticism, and I must admit to causing a problem with the fourth round pairings that caused a lot of 1-2 teams to replay their first match. We did warn coaches that we might alter the seedings to avoid repeat pairings in the afternoon, but Auburn, the only 5-0 team, had already played all three 3-2 teams that qualified for the afternoon. Part of this is a consequence of our combining power matchups with a single elimination, as you say, and some of it is a consequence of having a small tournament. That's why you played IMSA a second time. As to playing Bloomington a second time--when it comes down the Final, you play whatever other team is still standing. There were two times during the day when Bloomington played Wheaton North, with the winner facing Auburn in the next match. In both cases, Bloomington won (Round 4 and the semis). Wheaton North ran up big scores against everybody except Bloomington.

Personally, I think power matchups create a better day. Had we gone with round robin divisions, you would have spent your morning winning every match by 200 points with maybe one exception. I don't think that is a good experience for you or the teams you play. Keep in mind that though you had a very challenging morning, your team could have lost a match or two and still made the afternoon. With divisions, you would not have played Carbondale or Winnebago.

As far as your problems with the questions, keep in mind that this was a beginning effort for the writers, led by two high school juniors. The subcategories were pretty well distributed--keep in mind that the final tossup was a calculus tossup. The bonuses were uneven in difficulty, and this is a fair criticism. However, it is extremely difficult to write even bonuses, especially when the writing is done by committee. Also, keep in mind that when Auburn and Bloomington are in the room, all the lit questions seem real easy--when Wheaton North Greg or Carbondale Justin is in the room, all the math questions seem real easy. (Edit: It's not that those teams or people only do one thing, but they do some things particularly well.)

We hope to improve for next year, though we won't get everything perfect then either.

and IHSSBCA questions.

Maybe someday I'll get my own icon

[Tegan]

From the remanants of the Maine South Frosh-Soph (24 teams):

1. Wheaton-Warrenville South
2. Loyola Academy
3. Deerfield
4. Sterling

Quarterfinals:
W-WS def Oswego East
Loyola def Fenwick
Deerfield def Libertyville
Strling def Lake Zurich

Round of 16:
W-WS def Fenwick B
Loyola def Bradley A
Deerfield def Homewood-Flossmoor
Sterling def Lincoln-Way Central
Oswego East def Loyola B
Fenwick def Marist
Libertyville def Maine South
Lake Zurich defSt. Ignatius

All-Tournament (based on 5 rounds, 22 TU/round):
Curt from Wheaton-Warrenville South (26)
Greg from Loyola (25)
Jaob from Bradley (21)
Jim from Loyola (21)
Karen from Deerfield (18)
Breanna from Sterling (17)
William from Marist (17)
Jenny from Leyden (16)
Praki from Wheaton-Warrenville South (16)
Dan from Leyden (15)

[Tegan]

On the Maine South Fr-Soph:

1. While we were not the longest running tournament in the state this year, there was a major screw up that put us behind schedule by at least minutes, which was my fault.

2. I was concerned about question difficulty. A few teams mentioned that they would not score on the team bonuses at all. In the third place match between two solid teams, they only scored four of the first twelve. Admittadly, they were among the hardest questions of the tournament. I think many of the teams were clearly not good at answering NAQT style questions.

3. If I can fix our big "delay" for next year, and if I can entice some of the teams to come back, it should be OK. I have been working on a plan overnight to fix some of the problems for next year.

I want to publilcly thank our guest moderators (Dennis from Maine East, Mike frmo Fenton, Laura from Northwestern, Dan and Alex from UIUC, and Dan from Augustana). The Maine South varsity team went above and beyond, and my assistant coach Mike was a rock in the water!

[mlaird]

All-Tournament (based on 5 rounds, 22 TU/round):
Jim from Loyola (21)

That's Tim.

Also, I have nothing but good things to say about the questions from the NT Varsity Tournament. The only beef I really had was with the goofy tournament format. WN 'B' ended up only playing three teams in the morning, playing LA and Evanston twice. The pseudo-swiss pairs are a well intentioned idea, but I think we'll need more teams before it can be executed with great success. I liked this tournament; has the possibility to be the best of the season.

[Tegan]

All-Tournament (based on 5 rounds, 22 TU/round):
Jim from Loyola (21)

That's Tim.

Maybe if the coach had written neatly

.....if there was a mix up on the medal, we'll provide one gratis. It was likely one of the minor screwups of the day.

[Trevkeeper]

So, at essentially the halfway point of the season, what does everyone think the top 5 or 10 are?

In alphabetical order, these are my top 6:


Bloomington
Loyola
Maine East
Palatine Fremd
Rockford Auburn
Wheaton North

I'm sure I'm forgetting someone. I didn't want to rank them; there are too many good teams to slight one by not putting them at the top.

[dtaylor4]

I can think of two:

Carbondale
Fenwick

[TeachMe]

I would like to compliment Maine South on a nice Freshman-Sophomore tournament. I cannot imagine all of the efforts it takes to organize a tournament, and then to have to change all of the pairings at the last minute becuse three teams don't show up and don't bother to call. The "major screwup" that Tom Egan mentioned was the pizza not arriving anywhere near time, which was pretty much out of his hands. While the pizza was great when it arrived, I'm sure Tom will have a new vendor next year. Overall, the format was great, and my team loved it. The moderators were great, and it was a wonderful experience for the kids. They got to see a format different than IHSA, and got to answer many questions that were challenging, but not impossible. I especially loved that the science questions, for instance, were in physical science, biology, and chemistry, courses in which freshmen and sophomores would typically be enrolled. I also liked that Tom had medals for the high scorers.

While the tournament ran long, I am sure that next year it will run much more smoothly, and overall I want to give Tom and his Maine South team a thank you for putting forth such a great effort. Unfortunately, too many of our team members were gone on vacation for us to enter the New Trier varsity tournament, and at that, we didn't have our normal team for the fresh-soph. I would have loved to see the efforts of high school juniors organizing a tournament, and supported them in those efforts.

TeachMe

[Irreligion in Bangladesh]

So, at essentially the halfway point of the season, what does everyone think the top 5 or 10 are?

In alphabetical order, these are my top 6:


Bloomington
Loyola
Maine East
Palatine Fremd
Rockford Auburn
Wheaton North

I'm sure I'm forgetting someone. I didn't want to rank them; there are too many good teams to slight one by not putting them at the top.

10. Winnebago
9. New Trier
8. Maine East
7. Carbondale
6. Fenwick
5. Loyola
4. Wheaton North
3. Fremd
2. Bloomington
1. Auburn

**WARNING** Huge post ahead...tread at your own mercy for details.

With the strong showing by all regions at New Trier, plus very good finishes by all teams involved throughout the year, from Earlybird until now, the top 10 have to be these teams, in this order (ties due to the common theme in tournaments these days: no consolation brackets*!)

10: Winnebago. With the exception of Latin, the only notable Class A team as of yet, as many have not yet played a game outside of the kickoff. Fairfield, Peoria Heights, and Chillcothe IVC look to be good so far, but haven't really played top caliber AA teams as of yet past Bloomington and Carbondale, with no apparent successes. It strongly looks as though the Class A champion will be below at least 75% of the Class AA Sweet 16.

(and to be not-so-Class A-bashing, we have (kinda) earned it - we beat Stevenson, Fremd, and Bloomington at Ultima (with 2 people), took Auburn to TU 20 at Kaneland, and beaten all the decent (read: second tier) local AA teams (Boylan, Sterling, Moline, Guilford, Streator, etc.))

(Finally, because the rest of my top ten is AA, I feel it kind of odd to have 1 Class A team here, when I could just fake being a coach of some form and mail this to IHSSBCA for a top 10 AA rankings...so if I were forced to, the 10th best AA team right now would be Deerfield, based on their strong "rebuilding" following Bilow's graduation. I don't think most people saw THAT one coming.)

10 (9): New Trier. Yes, they're slipping a bit at the moment, but they've got dedication, coaching, 2 Solo finalists, a promising future, and the knowledge that at least they'll be good next year with Carlo and Trev as Seniors. They got 3rd at Ultima, 5th at Earlybird, 3rd (over WN) at Kickoff, and are by no means a pushover.

5 (8): Maine East. I haven't heard enough about anything other than Erin Li. After a very good showing at Solo and some good tourney finishes, they're good; but without some more information, I can't prove that they're good enough to get over the hump into the top 4.

5 (7): Carbondale. Some very good players, including Justin, who basically owns Southern Illinois in math. Have played well at all tournaments I've seen them in, and they could, with some luck in the poolings and in other sectionals, do very well at state.

5 (6): Fenwick. There is a very close tie between Fenwick and Loyola (just like in the quarterfinals at NT :)), broken by Loyola's increased activity, better placings at a majority of similar tournaments, and Loyola's high showing at Northwestern NAQT. Fenwick's good, don't get me wrong - very quick with the buzzer against us at NT - but Loyola's got the better year so far.

5 (5): Loyola. As mentioned before, they're simply more active, and better at it (perhaps?) because of it. Besides, Katie and Matt could own any duo other than Tyler/Colleen.

The last four (Bloomington, Auburn, Fremd, Wheaton North) require a tiny bit of analysis. Let's go over the tournaments they've been to:
Earlybird: Auburn 1, Bloomington 3
Ultima: Auburn 1, Fremd 2, Bloomington and Wheaton North lower
NW NAQT: Auburn 1, others not top 4
Kaneland: Auburn 1, WN 2
Kickoff: Auburn 1, WN 4, other not top 4
Richards: Fremd 1
NT: Bloomington 1, Auburn 2, WN 3

For most of the year, Bloomington has dominated Central/Southern Illinois while other tournaments were being held.

When you consider that Bloomington sent most of the team to ACE camp, Fremd sent a good deal of the team as well, and Colleen won the SEMO lit competition, and Wheaton North sent no one, extra points must be added to the other three. Fremd has a bonafide captain - Wheaton North has the best math player in the state - Bloomington has owned most of the circuit and done well for themselves against the Chicago dogs - Auburn is Auburn...

It's hard to sort out, but...

4: Wheaton North. If Auburn loses either of the big two (Tyler at Boylan, Colleen at Kaneland, etc.), they're still fine. Likewise with Bloomington, they're not a one-player team in any way, shape, or form. Wheaton North simply looked silly without Greg at Ultima.

3: Fremd. The same reason - drop Beata, drop games. Lots of them. They're still good, don't get me wrong...but without Beata, they would suffer greatly. They have performed well this year, however, and did beat Auburn at Ultima, so it is close between them and #2...

2: Bloomington. In three playoff games, this team defeated Goliath South (Carbondale), Goliath Northeast (Wheaton North), and Goliath North (Auburn). A magnificent team that should bring home some hardware at state. As it matures, it could be very, very good, as I don't believe that many of their players are seniors.

1: Auburn. Of course. Still no argument here, and that won't change at all this year. I don't care if they don't win state, it still probably wouldn't change the rankings.


*no consolation brackets: what is it with teams not offering consolation brackets for tournaments the last few weeks? Boylan never does, and NT didn't this past weekend. It's kind of sad to eat lunch, play one game and be done with it...the afternoon should be at least three games long for all teams. I'm not saying give everyone plaques...I'm saying, if they've earned top 8 status, give them three more packets :)

**End of long rant** You may return to your normal thread.

[David Riley]

I understand why you like consolation brackets, but keep in mind that many teams do not like playing for eighth place.

Just my $0.02

[dtaylor4]

styx, some things:

the only senior i know of on bloomingtion is vikram karamdikar, hunter's a sophomore, the others are juniors. i'm pretty sure on this since i did play them quite a bit.

As for Goliath South (Carbondale), keep in mind Mac might (and i stress MIGHT) make a good comeback once their best player is actually in illinois (Jared Carter, who went to ACE, is a page over in DC and won't be back till january).

first, you claim that ultima doesn't count, then you're using it to reason your rankings. i don't mean to antagonize, but please stay consistent.

personally, i think it should not be used to determine a team's strength. i remember my junior year my team finished dead last (unfamiliarity with the format) and my senior year we beat both fremd and new trier in the same match. but fremd beat us out by i think 30 aggregate game points to take 4th while nt won the whole thing

i don't mean to disregard the tournament, but the performances by a team should never be used to indicate something about their strength.

EDIT: addressing consolation, i know that Sterling does consolation, but they also give hardware for the top 8

[Tegan]

As for consolation brackets, I do like them from the standpoint that typically, you get three matches against quality teams (no one likes playing for 5th place, or seventh place), but it does help build metal stamina, and you the opponents in the afternoon are typically stronger than your morning. That can make it worth while.....The only tournaemnt I know of with consolation is Kaneland (though I am likely beingignorant of others).

As for using Ultima as a ranking tool:
1. It is an early season touranment. I don't care as much what you did in early October....its what you are doing in January that counts more towards seeding in my book (though consistent play is definitely important)
2. It doesn't necessarily give you strong rankings because if Team A beats Team B, and Team B has done this format before (or practiced in it), they gain an advantage...play in Illinois format, the outcome can be quite different.
3. The teams at Ultima are based upon the previous season's standings, and do not always reflect the top teams (though, hisotrically, the top Ultima teams have been that seasons better teams).
4. You can never use a single tournament or match in deciding how teams rank. The questions, the lack of certain players....heck, if a top player has a head cold that day, they can be slow.
5. Certain top teams will not attend Ultima because of the format, because of the teams, and because certain teams just don't go to tournaments where the host writes the questions (not to cast aspursions).....so you need to be careful in using a single tournament like this. Heck, the competition at Fenwick's annual "Bloodbath" has in some years been almost as good as the Ultima (except it is played in February, in Illinois format with NAQT style questions).

[First Chairman]

Usually teams disappear when consolation play comes around when the students on the team have other commitments. Can't help it if a couple of your team members are in band, orchestra, or that evening's play. On the other hand, if it is made clear that all the games are paid for...

When I ran Buzzerpalooza in 1995-96, I gave every one of the 24 teams involved 7 preliminary games and 5 pooled final games. (3 divisions of 8 regrouped to 4 divisions of 6). Had prizes for every single winner of each of the pooled groups too. Maybe you need people to get that type of attitude, because future years of Buzzerpalooza we gave everyone a minimum of 9 prelim games before playoffs.

[GreyGhost06]

Styxman. After Winnebago, who would be your top ten class A teams this year? since Winnebago is head and shoulders above the rest, just wondering? Anyone else feel free to comment as well.

[Summoned Skull]

St. Teresa looks pretty good this year when they have their whole team. Take away Ben, though, and they lose most of their power.