VETO 2014

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VETO 2014

Post by minusfive »

Not that I'm the organizer, or anything, but just figured I'd put this here as it doesn't seem to get put on this forum much (apart from stimulating discussions about gumballs and chopsticks). It also might help avoid (or encourage, I suppose) scheduling conflicts.

This year's VETO will be held on July 12th, at the University of Toronto and the University of British Columbia.

It's free, a fun way to travel, and last year there were some pretty good prizes (I believe the top scorer in the West got a pair of handcuffs). As the tournament is packet submission, submitting a packet (even if you don't play) is extremely helpful. You might also learn things about Canada you will literally be better off not knowing.

I don't have a website to direct you to (yet), but if you're interested, feel free to send me a message.

Cheers!
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by adosreme »

While it is overwhelmingly likely that it will in fact occur on July 12, it is not 100% confirmed that the Toronto mirror will be on this date.

I might as well use this post for a Toronto field update. Based entirely on what I've heard from various people over the last little while:

Carleton/Nick et al. (1)
Ottawa/Dennis et al. (1)
Toronto/Meghan et al. (1)
Waterloo/Christine et al. (1)
The Indomitable Amy of Jay Misuk/Jay + Westmount (1)
McMaster/ Leslie et al. (1)
Lisgar Alumni/Patrick et al. (1)
Waterloo Alumni/Huma et al. (1)
B.E.E.R./Brock et al. (1)

It would be preferable to have an odd number of teams if possible. If you want to confirm your registration for this tournament, then feel free send me to an email at [email protected]
Last edited by adosreme on Tue Jul 01, 2014 10:34 pm, edited 8 times in total.
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by naan/steak-holding toll »

I'm thinking about going to this, since I'm on campus taking classes over the summer and may be inclined to make the road trip (with or without a friend) or fly out, assuming I can find reasonably priced tickets and/or get the school to fund the trip. In any case, are open teams allowed?
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by cruzeiro »

gamegeek2 wrote:I'm thinking about going to this, since I'm on campus taking classes over the summer and may be inclined to make the road trip (with or without a friend) or fly out, assuming I can find reasonably priced tickets and/or get the school to fund the trip. In any case, are open teams allowed?
Open teams are the norm at VETO.
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by Peter13 »

I would love to go, but no good team in their right mind would put me on their list. I don't know what to expect with VETO. I expect the sets to be guerrilla as always, and range from poor to excellent as they have done for the last couple iterations. I hope that over the summer I do a Subash, but I don't know how that is going to go. Anyways, hope to see you guys there.
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by naan/steak-holding toll »

Peter13 wrote:I would love to go, but no good team in their right mind would put me on their list. I don't know what to expect with VETO. I expect the sets to be guerrilla as always, and range from poor to excellent as they have done for the last couple iterations. I hope that over the summer I do a Subash, but I don't know how that is going to go. Anyways, hope to see you guys there.
Assuming I can make it, I'd play with you. I need somebody who can get points on bonuses that ask for three Canadian senators or something like that.
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by Peter13 »

gamegeek2 wrote:
Peter13 wrote:I would love to go, but no good team in their right mind would put me on their list. I don't know what to expect with VETO. I expect the sets to be guerrilla as always, and range from poor to excellent as they have done for the last couple iterations. I hope that over the summer I do a Subash, but I don't know how that is going to go. Anyways, hope to see you guys there.
Assuming I can make it, I'd play with you. I need somebody who can get points on bonuses that ask for three Canadian senators or something like that.
Thanks Will, but I don't think Canadians care as much on our senators, as I don't remember even in Reach or other very Canadian content rich packets about them. But there will be questions on weird Canadian geography or history which I might get.
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by vetovian »

We now have an official VETO website, here:
http://caql.org/events/veto14.html
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by vetovian »

gamegeek2 wrote:I need somebody who can get points on bonuses that ask for three Canadian senators or something like that.
For VETO in 2005, I wrote a visual bonus asking for Canadian senators, but most teams did poorly on it, even though they could choose from any of them:
http://quizbowl.stanford.edu/archive/ve ... df#page=14
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by adosreme »

Also, please note that the above linked page is pretty much used every year. As far as I know, there isn't actually an application process for playing in VETO that involves an invitation system. If you want to play, then just find a team, write a packet, and play.
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by Masked Canadian History Bandit »

vetovian wrote:
gamegeek2 wrote:I need somebody who can get points on bonuses that ask for three Canadian senators or something like that.
For VETO in 2005, I wrote a visual bonus asking for Canadian senators, but most teams did poorly on it, even though they could choose from any of them:
http://quizbowl.stanford.edu/archive/ve ... df#page=14
I think most teams did poorly because you only gave them 15 seconds!
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by Peter13 »

I am just worried about the "Application process". I have never written questions before for an actual quizbowl tournament, so I couldn't email two old packets. What alternative could I do so I can have the opportunity to play?
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by Bartleby »

adosreme wrote:Also, please note that the above linked page is pretty much used every year. As far as I know, there isn't actually an application process for playing in VETO that involves an invitation system. If you want to play, then just find a team, write a packet, and play.
Peter: see above.

Emphasis mine.
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by Peter13 »

Sorry Brian. I just spent a while combing through the website, so the comments slipped through my grasp. Also, since we are talking about this, how often are "hidden themes" used? Thanks again.
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by minusfive »

Not very often. And DON'T. It's tough to do well and skews the game towards the side which figures out the theme, regardless of skill. If you must (and nobody has for quite a while), keep it to a theme that isn't guessable until the 17th toss-up or later. Ignoring this advice earns ignominy.

And there was a toss-up last year on Canadian (Conservative) senators, which I wrote.
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by Peter13 »

Don't worry, I won't do it. I feel it cheapens the fun of VETO. I just hope there isn't too many difficulty swings.
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by Deepika Goes From Ranbir To Ranveer »

Every Waterloo pack will have multiple hidden themes. Ignominy is my middle name.
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by Fado Alexandrino »

I'm going to put myself as a free agent for this; I know most sciences and can fake some fine arts and willing to contribute a fair share to a packet.

EDIT: I am writing a packet for this tournament with Nicholas Penner and Charles Korwin. Whether I am playing or not depends on my job, travel plans for Chicago Open, and the availability of rides, the latter two depend on the prices and times of VIA rail tickets.
Last edited by Fado Alexandrino on Sun May 18, 2014 8:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by minusfive »

Now that everyone's had time to plan, are there any teams formed? I plan on going to play in BC-any British Columbian/Washingtonian teams formed?
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by Mike Bentley »

minusfive wrote:Now that everyone's had time to plan, are there any teams formed? I plan on going to play in BC-any British Columbian/Washingtonian teams formed?
There will be 2ish Seattle teams attending. Shoot me an e-mail at [email protected]
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by Peter13 »

Do to a recent finding, my supposed sort-of set up team has now disintegrated, so I am now a free agent. My new mission is not be on the lowest scoring team, and not be the among the three lowest scoring players. Having a team that gets over 100 PPG (including bonuses) and individually scoring 5 PPG should do the trick.
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by Senator_Jay »

I could use a team for this. I've heard some interest from various peeps both on and off these forums. Anyone feel like joining my terrible team of troublemakers?
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by vetovian »

Peter13 wrote:I am just worried about the "Application process". I have never written questions before for an actual quizbowl tournament, so I couldn't email two old packets. What alternative could I do so I can have the opportunity to play?
Your best option would be to find teammates who qualify. If you're playing in Vancouver, we do require that every team have people who have previously written questions for a quizbowl tournament. We instituted this rule because there's no central editing, and we had some bad experiences with packets written by people who had never written a quizbowl packet before. Both the writers and the players of those packets felt bad about them. But I understand that in the Ontario mirror, this rule is not followed.
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by vetovian »

Mike Bentley wrote:
minusfive wrote:Now that everyone's had time to plan, are there any teams formed? I plan on going to play in BC-any British Columbian/Washingtonian teams formed?
There will be 2ish Seattle teams attending. Shoot me an e-mail at [email protected]
There will also be a team of UBC alumni, I believe a team of Oregon alumni and a team of SFU alumni, and my team. So that's 3 or 4 more.
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by Cody »

vetovian wrote:We instituted this rule because there's no central editing, and we had some bad experiences with packets written by people who had never written a quizbowl packet before. Both the writers and the players of those packets felt bad about them. But I understand that in the Ontario mirror, this rule is not followed.
Yeah, this rule leads to truly stellar packet quality.
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by minusfive »

Pretty excited for a post-VETO Modern World shakedown...with sufficient levels of informality to comment on the set's avowed crappiness...
Cody wrote:Yeah, this rule leads to truly stellar packet quality.
The rule was instituted so that people would have to write (not a common thing in Canada) while trying to ensure a baseline of quality. Whether it works is a whole other question, but its motives are good. Plus, (as I've said for many years now), the real antidote to a perceived lack of enjoyment of VETO (which is in the eye of the beholder) is for "good quizbowl" practitioners to write packets and play...
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by Fado Alexandrino »

When will details be provided for packet submission? Who is directing this tournament and in charge of logistics and packet organization?

Also, I will be writing 10 or so meta questions or questions about things I like that are so silly they would never be tossed up in even an event like VETO; pending TD approval this will be used as tossup 0 much like the Cane Ridge Revival mirror.
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by Masked Canadian History Bandit »

I plan on playing this with Di Xiao (formerly of Lisgar and Berkeley) and anyone who wants to chip in on our packet and play with us is appreciated.
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by adosreme »

I've edited my post above (the second one in this thread) to be a field update for the Toronto site in case people have missed it. At this point, if you want to confirm a registration for the Toronto mirror, then feel free to shoot me an email at [email protected]

Edit: I will confirm at our meeting this week that the rooms have been/are in the process of being booked.
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by minusfive »

Do we have any sort of (prospective) team list for this? As far as I know, the Vancouver site is looking good: who's playing with whom in Ontario?

PS: I heartily encourage amusing team names (don't just be "Waterloo, Mac, etc...")
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by Fado Alexandrino »

adosreme wrote:
Carleton/Nick et al. (1)
Ottawa/Dennis et al. (1)
Toronto/Meghan et al. (1)
Waterloo/players unconfirmed (1?)
McMaster (Alumni?)/Jay et al. (1)
Lisgar Alumni/Patrick et al. (1)
Waterloo Alumni/Huma et al. (1)
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by minusfive »

Normally I'd hang my head in shame, but:
adosreme wrote:Based entirely on what I've heard from various people over the last little while:
So nope, this isn't a list. Nor is it a list of players.

Troll fail.
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by minusfive »

minusfive wrote:
So nope, this isn't a list. Nor is it a list of players.

Troll fail.
Overly harsh and essentially incorrect, my apologies, Joe. But an expanded/verified list would be appreciated. I guess in late June, when the "deadline" is?

Also, who's planning on coming to VancouverETO?
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by Peter13 »

I am sad to see that my name has not been added to the list. I have recently finished my packet, and now I am just in the reviewing stage to make sure it is up to quality standards. So how will that work, will I just be a free agent? I really wish someone adds be to their team.
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by adosreme »

minusfive wrote: Overly harsh and essentially incorrect, my apologies, Joe. But an expanded/verified list would be appreciated. I guess in late June, when the "deadline" is?
The field list has been updated. So far, Dennis has sent me confirmation and Toronto as well as both Waterloo teams are in the process of writing. All other teams are, as far as I know, coming but I can't confirm anything beyond that. I am also not posting rosters yet because (a) I don't know what they are, (b) I'm sure they won't be final until much closer to the tournament date, and (c) if the teams themselves haven't posted their rosters for whatever reason, I'm not going to preemptively post them based on hearsay.
Peter13 wrote:I am sad to see that my name has not been added to the list. I have recently finished my packet, and now I am just in the reviewing stage to make sure it is up to quality standards. So how will that work, will I just be a free agent? I really wish someone adds be to their team.
I've added your name to the field update. I wasn't aware that you were currently playing by yourself. Right now, we're looking at 8 teams, but we really need to have an odd number to ensure that we have byes. If this doesn't change, then we usually do some team merging/splitting to ensure that the schedule works out.
minusfive wrote:Troll fail.
Trolling...I do not think it means what you think it means.
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by Senator_Jay »

So from the looks of things, I'm playing with some Westmount people, and there is a separate McMaster team of Leslie et al. That's all I can confirm at this point, other than I am in the process of writing another delicious pack for yall. The bonuses will be written by the high schoolers, so if you can get any tossups, there'll be some sweet points to get on those!
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by adosreme »

The field post has been updated. At this point I'd like to preserve the bye so I'm going to ask that, in the (in my estimation) unlikely event that another team wants to sign up, that they will have to do so in a way that keeps the field at an odd number of teams. (whether that is finding another team to join as well, though both will have to write, or merging with a team already in the field)

Information regarding where to send your packets and specific tournament location will be added when I have gotten it finalized.
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by Cody »

Senator_Jay wrote:No one has any obligation to play in any tournament. Either you allow for creativity and doing generally un-quizbowl-like things at a tournament like this, or you don't. Likewise, if you don't like VETO or the packets being made for it, then don't participate.
Hey, here's a thought: be creative, do "un-quizbowl-like things" (whatever that means), and write questions people will enjoy! Plenty of [side] events venture off the beaten path and manage to create good questions that are fun to play, somehow. What you're doing is antithetical to the whole pursuit of quizbowl. Don't try to excuse your obviously awful behavior with truisms that smack of Chip Beall.
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by the third garrideb »

Bartleby wrote:If people want a good summer tournament in Canada that is produced by Canadians, they should create one. Playing VETO and writing a good pack, and hoping against hope that everyone else does too is not the answer. The answer is to create something better, independently.
There was this, a while ago, that never got finished, but that I at least am still interested in working on: viewtopic.php?f=21&t=13887&p=253821&hil ... tournament

Whether Canada Cup gets picked up again, or whether people want to work on something new, I am also in favour of helping add more good, Canadian-produced tournaments to our schedule.
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by minusfive »

I played (and liked) last year's packet by Jay, but I see why other people don't like it (just as I see why some people don't like quizbowl itself). I have more concerns with the writing style than the answer lines, which, of course, don't necessarily meet the criteria for DI SCT level.

What I will take issue with here are a few things:

1) The smugness: People can't write as well as you. They tried, but what's better than beating up a newb for their incapacities? Not everyone fits into this example, and many people have non-judgmentally tried to help people get better at writing, but at the end of the day, there isn't much more destructive than destructive criticism. I didn't write the gumballs bonus, but if I had my worst example of writing posted and re-posted and re-posted every year, I would probably ignore the people who did that, too. Looking at this thread, there are a lot of glass houses, but I don't want mine damaged, so I'll leave it at that.

2) The apathy: Every year, if I post an announcement, I ask for people to attend, or failing that, to help write, VETO. It is a free tournament, and they aren't going to turn down the amazing pack you just wrote for practice. But instead of doing that, why not just throw stuff at it? The number of people who can get away with the "we tried once in 2009 but it failed" is relatively small (and most of them are generous-minded enough and care about quizbowl enough to not hold that grudge). If *you* don't like the system, there are better options than just complaining. Again, a lot of the critics on here have either never read VETO, never been to VETO, or have never recently been to VETO. And the last "alternative to VETO" tournament saw its organizer skip the editing process and go lawnbowling the day of.

3) The doublethink:
I laud plans to make a new tournament. But why are you trying to destroy an old one at the same time?
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by minusfive »

And I will say, Jay cut the best quizbowl heel promo I have seen in a while.
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by Fado Alexandrino »

Bartleby wrote:Here's an idea: stop playing this atrocious waste-of-time tournament.

I mean, I don't really think Jay's out of line to do whatever the hell he wants in his VETO packet; as he points out, this is a tournament that once had a bonus asking people to pick up candy with chopsticks. But, the very fact that this tournament encourages this type of ridiculousness should be a sign to everyone that it needs to be put out to pasture.

We have a Canadian quiz bowl circuit that's really coming into its own. Last year we hosted more tournaments and got better attendance at those tournaments than I can ever remember. If people think this tournament is fun, then they should absolutely do it -- I'm trying to avoid making a value judgement on this tournament compared to 'good' quiz bowl. When we have posts like Joe's, though, which basically accept a baseline level of terrible for VETO even if everyone writes at a consistent level of difficulty, I question how many people find this to be 'fun', and how many people do it because it's what's on offer, and better than nothing.

If people want a good summer tournament in Canada that is produced by Canadians, they should create one. Playing VETO and writing a good pack, and hoping against hope that everyone else does too is not the answer. The answer is to create something better, independently. I would certainly assist with and support such an attempt. If people want to keep playing VETO, then they should do that too. Let's just go into this with no illusions that VETO can or ever will be anything different than it is.
Just move Ottawa Hybrid to Summer, giving us a Canadian fun-but edited to the best of the editors ability-tournament and opening up a space in March to play real quizbowl! I would not have enjoyed playing unedited versions of the Ottawa Hybrid torunament, and VETO packets have the same problems. I think this idea can work out because 1) Hybrid allows more Trash than VETO does, allowing people to actually explore weird ideas without sacrificing any adacemic content and 2) Writers and Editors would probably have more time to make a better written tournament. 3) Let's Canadians, instead of writing and editing their own tournaments during the school year with no guidance, join a big project as a freelance writer to get experience with writing while being mentored by someone experienced who has produced exemplary sets in the past.
Cody wrote: Don't try to excuse your obviously awful behavior with truisms that smack of Chip Beall.
I've had enough experience with :chip: like questions in the past to want to attend VETO. I'm sure experienced people will have decent packets, but too much of the questions there will be of subpar quality. I'm reading the packets for 2012 VETO and there's a tossup on MS that begins with "Characterized by the gradual destruction of myelin".
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by Bartleby »

minusfive wrote: 3) The doublethink:
I laud plans to make a new tournament. But why are you trying to destroy an old one at the same time?
My own personal opinions (that VETO isn't fantastic and probably shouldn't exist any more) aside, I think I made it pretty clear that as long as people continue to enjoy VETO for what it is (something that only, in the vaguest sense of the term, resembles a quiz bowl tournament), it should continue to exist. What I seriously question is whether or not a great many people who participate actually enjoy it, and at least a couple of posts by others in this thread would suggest that I'm not totally off-base.

My broader point is this: every year in Canada, people complain that VETO is terrible, and then go and play it anyway. The mindset seems to be that it might be terrible, but it's the best we have. I don't think we're going to turn the pumpkin into a carriage any time soon, because people seem to have wildly different ideas of what constitutes an appropriate submission for VETO. I'm sure there are plenty of packets that more or less follow 'good' quiz bowl standards, and then we have ones like Jay's, which, frankly, does not. And that's fine (again, as long as people are having fun), because that's what VETO is! My proposal is simply that people who want VETO to magically become a consistently 'good' tournament should abandon the idea that it could ever happen, and work instead to create a 'good' tournament. And again, if those people (or anyone else!) wanted to keep playing VETO as well, all the power to them!

I don't think this is doublethink in the least. People should do what they want -- they just shouldn't hold the idea that VETO is the only option.
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by Cody »

minusfive wrote:2) The apathy: Every year, if I post an announcement, I ask for people to attend, or failing that, to help write, VETO. It is a free tournament, and they aren't going to turn down the amazing pack you just wrote for practice. But instead of doing that, why not just throw stuff at it? The number of people who can get away with the "we tried once in 2009 but it failed" is relatively small (and most of them are generous-minded enough and care about quizbowl enough to not hold that grudge). If *you* don't like the system, there are better options than just complaining. Again, a lot of the critics on here have either never read VETO, never been to VETO, or have never recently been to VETO. And the last "alternative to VETO" tournament saw its organizer skip the editing process and go lawnbowling the day of.
I've read plenty of VETO (incl. the most recent) and would never ever play or contribute a single question to it. I don't play quizbowl so I can be punished by the absolute stupidest variety of questions (and I don't mean the Canadian flavor, which I am always delighted by: it's part of why I love reading Ottawa Hybrid every year) - I play quizbowl to have fun. But my problems with VETO have little to do with my problems with Jay Misuk's stated predilections except insofar that it indulges them.

Plenty of guerilla tournaments have met some standard of acceptability, but VETO never will because of who participates and organizes it. That can't be fixed with the existing system. Burn it to the ground.
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by adosreme »

Final details cross-posted from the Facebook event for the Toronto mirror:

For Toronto teams, once your packets are done, send them to Peter McCorquodale at tak_seorangpun at yahoo dot com with your packet and any other files (audio clips, pictures, etc.) as attachments. Note that the due date is still at a reasonable hour on Friday, where reasonable is defined as early enough that he can chase you down if he needs to and still get the packets to me by Saturday morning. (Vancouver teams should send their packets to me at (my username)@gmail.com)

The tournament will be in Sidney Smith hall, with the control room being SS2101. For those of you that attended ACF Regionals, this is the same building that we were in for that tournament and the control room is that same double room as last time.

The tournament will be starting at 9am. All teams should show up in SS2101 no later than 8:30 so that we can get the games going by 9. We only have the rooms until 6pm and VETO rounds tend to take a little longer than traditional quizbowl rounds, so please, please, please, please don't be late.

If you have any questions or concerns, please let me know. Otherwise, see you all on Saturday!

Edit: Toronto packets should also be sent to josoo -at- me -dot- com in addition to Peter's email address above. Jo will be compiling the Toronto packets with Peter serving as a backup in case anything goes wrong.
Last edited by adosreme on Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by theMoMA »

Packet discussion split and moved to the discussion forum here: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=16085

A couple posts were so inane as to be FZ'd.
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by Peter13 »

I would like to thank everyone involved at the Ontario site for a fun and esoteric summer tournament that I really enjoyed. I feel like everything was very well done and ran on a pretty tight-ship as guerrilla tournaments go, but that did not take away from its charm. My only regret was to make the packet a bit harder.
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by adosreme »

We had 9 teams at the Toronto site. After the round robin, the leaders were the Masked Canadian Victory Bandits with a 7-1 records, followed by a tie between B2ER and I've Got 72 Revolutions But A Bitch Ain't One at 6-2. 72 Revolutions won the tiebreaker and ended up facing the Victory Bandits down a game in the advantaged final. After losing the first game, the Bandits came back and won the second game 275-250 to take the 2014 VETO East title.

I'd like to thank everyone who showed up and put up with me through the various logistic difficulties that arose. I hope you all had fun and I also hope to see you again next year!

Stats can be found within the tournament listing at http://www.hsquizbowl.org/db/tournaments/2273/
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by Fado Alexandrino »

Could you please include round report? I'm curious to see the difficulty variance in these packets.
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Re: VETO 2014

Post by p-vs-vp »

Thanks Aaron for directing, and everyone for both staffing and writing enjoyable packets! It was my first VETO, and I had a really fun time.
Last edited by p-vs-vp on Mon Jul 14, 2014 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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