2012 NAQT HSNCT: Congratulations to Bellarmine!

Dormant threads from the high school sections are preserved here.
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2012 NAQT HSNCT: Congratulations to Bellarmine!

Post by Important Bird Area »

naqt.com wrote:NAQT is pleased to announce that its 2012 High School National Championship Tournament will be held at the Hyatt Regency Atlanta hotel on Memorial Day weekend, May 25-27, 2012.

The field for the tournament is limited to 240 teams.
Full details

Qualified teams may now register online.

The current field is listed here.
Jeff Hoppes
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former HSQB Chief Admin (2012-13)
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Re: 2012 NAQT HSNCT: May 26-27, Atlanta

Post by TheDoctor »

Has any thought been given to helping this year's readers deal with this?
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Re: 2012 NAQT HSNCT: May 26-27, Atlanta

Post by AKKOLADE »

I don't know why anyone would need help dealing with one of the most spe-spe-spe-spe-spe-spe-spe-spe-CTACTULAR events of the year.
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Re: 2012 NAQT HSNCT: May 26-27, Atlanta

Post by o'b »

Is any information available yet in regards to signing up as a staff member?
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Re: 2012 NAQT HSNCT: May 26-27, Atlanta

Post by Important Bird Area »

NAQT is now accepting wildcard bids for the 2012 HSNCT.

Please send a summary of your season and tournament results to hsnct (at) naqt.com. We will respond during the week of February 6th.
Jeff Hoppes
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Re: 2012 NAQT HSNCT: May 26-27, Atlanta

Post by Important Bird Area »

I am pleased to announce that the 2012 HSNCT field has been expanded to 240 teams.
Jeff Hoppes
President, Northern California Quiz Bowl Alliance
former HSQB Chief Admin (2012-13)
VP for Communication and history subject editor, NAQT
Editor emeritus, ACF

"I wish to make some kind of joke about Jeff's love of birds, but I always fear he'll turn them on me Hitchcock-style." -Fred

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Re: 2012 NAQT HSNCT: May 26-27, Atlanta

Post by Down and out in Quintana Roo »

Is NAQT planning on using the same scheduling as in previous years, even with more teams attending this tournament? By that i mean the standard 10 preliminary games with multiple byes, and accepting every team 6-4 and better into the playoffs.
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Re: 2012 NAQT HSNCT: May 26-27, Atlanta

Post by Important Bird Area »

Yes, we plan to use the same format.
Jeff Hoppes
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Re: 2012 NAQT HSNCT: May 26-27, Atlanta

Post by Important Bird Area »

Reminder that today is the no-penalty drop deadline; if you would like to cancel your team's HSNCT registration, please contact us as soon as possible.
naqt.com wrote:As of 23:59:59 ET on April 27, 2012, the acceptance of invitations will be considered final. Should a team cancel after that date, it will still be liable for one-half of its base registration fee.
Jeff Hoppes
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former HSQB Chief Admin (2012-13)
VP for Communication and history subject editor, NAQT
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Re: 2012 NAQT HSNCT: May 26-27, Atlanta

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The Hyatt Regency Atlanta is now full for HSNCT weekend. We expect to announce an overflow hotel in the near future.
Jeff Hoppes
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Re: 2012 NAQT HSNCT: May 26-27, Atlanta

Post by Whiter Hydra »

Chris Chiego and I will be running the blog and liveblog for this year's HSNCT, which can be found here.
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Re: 2012 NAQT HSNCT: May 26-27, Atlanta

Post by Important Bird Area »

Reminder: registration for this tournament closes on Monday, May 21st.
Jeff Hoppes
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Re: 2012 NAQT HSNCT: May 26-27, Atlanta

Post by The Stately Rhododendron »

bt_green_warbler wrote:We expect to announce an overflow hotel in the near future.
Has the hotel been announced?
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Re: 2012 NAQT HSNCT: May 26-27, Atlanta

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Communi-Bear Silo State wrote:Chris Chiego and I will be running the blog and liveblog for this year's HSNCT, which can be found here.
Will there be games webcast on iHigh like there were last year?
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Re: 2012 NAQT HSNCT: May 26-27, Atlanta

Post by trackman32 »

I have a question about buzzers. Has anyone had a problem with getting them through security with carry-on luggage? I am wondering as we bringing buzzers for the first time. Thanks for any advice or suggestions!
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Re: 2012 NAQT HSNCT: May 26-27, Atlanta

Post by Mike Bentley »

trackman32 wrote:I have a question about buzzers. Has anyone had a problem with getting them through security with carry-on luggage? I am wondering as we bringing buzzers for the first time. Thanks for any advice or suggestions!
I've generally not had problems taking buzzers on a plane. I've brought them with me in their own container and packed with my other stuff and it's been fine.
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Re: 2012 NAQT HSNCT: May 26-27, Atlanta

Post by Cheynem »

We took the Judge with us to Nationals last year. It received a brief bit of inspection, but was finally pronounced to be a "lie detector" and allowed to go through.
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Re: 2012 NAQT HSNCT: May 26-27, Atlanta

Post by AKKOLADE »

Every time Mike Cheyne buzzes in, it's a lie.
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Re: 2012 NAQT HSNCT: May 26-27, Atlanta

Post by Whiter Hydra »

The first of the team previews are up! Spoiler alert: We expect Bellarmine to make the playoffs.
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Re: 2012 NAQT HSNCT: May 26-27, Atlanta

Post by Important Bird Area »

quantumfootball wrote: Will there be games webcast on iHigh like there were last year?
Yes, there will be (link here).
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Re: 2012 NAQT HSNCT: May 26-27, Atlanta

Post by Whiter Hydra »

Will NAQT post a playoff bracket like they did last year? It'd be nice to get a match tracker up for Sunday again.
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Re: 2012 NAQT HSNCT: May 26-27, Atlanta

Post by Important Bird Area »

Communi-Bear Silo State wrote:Will NAQT post a playoff bracket like they did last year? It'd be nice to get a match tracker up for Sunday again.
We can do that. (Ask tonight at check-in if you don't get a copy sooner.)
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former HSQB Chief Admin (2012-13)
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Re: 2012 NAQT HSNCT: May 26-27, Atlanta

Post by Whiter Hydra »

I am liveblogging a few scrimmage games, which you can find here.
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Re: 2012 NAQT HSNCT: May 26-27, Atlanta

Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh »

Good luck today, everybody!
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Re: 2012 NAQT HSNCT: May 26-27, Atlanta

Post by Brian Ulrich »

May the odds be ever in your favor!
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Re: 2012 NAQT HSNCT: May 26-27, Atlanta

Post by Whiter Hydra »

Liveblog is up. I will be paying close attention to #hsnct on Twitter, so use it to tweet results.
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Re: 2012 NAQT HSNCT: May 26-27, Atlanta

Post by Whiter Hydra »

There will also be streams of games going on at http://ihigh.com/naqt.
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Re: 2012 NAQT HSNCT: May 26-27, Atlanta

Post by Stained Diviner »

Here are the morning pools. Each pool will produce one 4-0 team, four 3-1 teams, six 2-2 teams, four 1-3 teams, and one 0-4 team. The pools only hold for the morning matches.

Pool 1: Stoneman Douglas, Georgetown Day B, Dorman A, O’Connor, Early College, Fisher Catholic, Champaign Centennial, Chaska B, Hawken, Half Hollow Hills West, Mound City, Wilmington Charter B, Canyon Crest, Tulsa Central, Marist A, State College B

Pool 2: Georgetown Day A, Belvidere North B, Woburn, Kent City, Phillips Exeter, Clark, Pope John Paul II, Hoover B, Stevenson B, Chaska A, Beachwood, Desert Vista B, Kealing Middle, Millburn, Enloe, Riverdale

Pool 3: Findlay, Maumee Valley, Brophy A, Brookwood, Novi A, North Hollywood, EO Smith, Dunbar B, Cistercian B, Early College B, International Academy East, St. Thomas, Drummond, Chaminade-Madonna A, Ladue A, IMSA B

Pool 4: Stoughton, Ranney, Macomb, Westminster B, George Marshall, Bainbridge, Arcadia A, Novi C, High Tech, Ransom Everglades, Park Hill South, Harmony Science, Dorman B, Wando, LASA C, Ladue B

Pool 5: Highland Park, Troy, Ardsley, Ransom Everglades B, DuPont Manual C, Wayzata B, Coronado, IMSA A, Centralia, Arcadia B, Raleigh Charter B, Richard Montgomery B, Athens Academy, West Salem, Benton, Mounds Park A

Pool 6: Richard Montgomery A, Cistercian A, Mills, Chariton, Novi B, Wilmington Charter A, Arkansas M&S, Camp Hill, South Forsyth, Brophy B, Hopkins, St. Joseph’s, Belvidere North A, Solon A, Southern Fulton, Logan-Rogersville

Pool 7: Aynor, Maggie Walker A, Loyola, Culver A, East Brunswick, Green Hope, St. John’s C, Savannah, Kinkaid, Wayzata A, Flowery Branch, Myers Park, Columbia (AL), Ridge View, Solon B, Torrey Pines

Pool 8: Chattahoochee B, DCC A, Pilot Grove, St. Paul Central, Oakland Mills, Great Neck South, Maggie Walker B, East Chapel Hill, DeWitt, Danville, LAMP, Bellarmine B, LASA E, Bellaire A, Lowellville, Farragut

Pool 9: Carrboro A, Watson Chapel, Cedar Shoals, LASA A, MLK Magnet, St. John’s D, Sycamore, Winchester Thurston, Muldrow, Rosemount, Carbondale, Hoover A, Creekland, Santa Monica, LaCrosse Logan, Mediapolis

Pool 10: Kearsley, St. John’s A, Walter Johnson, James W. Robinson, Raleigh Charter A, St. Pius X, Wayzata C, Arcadia C, Parkview A&S A, DuPont Manual A, State College A, BASIS, Mountain Lakes, Eastside, Crystal Springs Uplands, Rockford Auburn

Pool 11: Chaminade-Madonna B, Glasgow, Bellarmine A, Kellenberg A, Christianburg, Bridgeport, Hanover, Hume-Fogg, Eden Prairie, Eastview, Desert Vista A, Westmont, LASA D, Norman North B, Chattahoochee A, Dunbar A

Pool 12: Fenton, Robbinsdale Armstrong, Walker, Norman North A, Helias, Olmsted Falls, Cave Spring, Carrboro B, Centennial, Athens, El Paso, Temple, Ransom Everglades A, Rancho Bernardo, Ezell-Harding, St. Andrew’s

Pool 13: St. Joseph, Stevenson A, Culver B, Caesar Rodney, Marist B, Irvine, Norcross, Mounds View, Plymouth, Ballard, Skyline, St. Mark’s, Oak Ridge, St. Anselm’s, DuBois Area, Bauxite

Pool 14: North Miami, Southside, Desert Vista C, Jefferson (MO), Walton, Lafayette, Ottawa Hills, Menlo, Treasure Valley, Hunter A, Early College A, Buchholz, Warren Harding, DCC B, DuPont Manual B, LASA B

Pool 15: Bellaire B, St. John’s B, Truman, Northmont, Collins Hill, NCSSM, Hunter B, Thomas Jefferson S&T, Irondale, Covenant Christian, Grosse Pointe North, Springfield, Hoover C, Westminster A, Mounds Park B, North Kansas City
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Re: 2012 NAQT HSNCT: May 26-27, Atlanta

Post by AKKOLADE »

Leucippe and Clitophon wrote:Here are the morning pools. Each pool will produce one 4-0 team, four 3-1 teams, six 2-2 teams, four 1-3 teams, and one 0-4 team. The pools only hold for the morning matches.
Does it then split into straight power matching for the remaining six games?
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Re: 2012 NAQT HSNCT: May 26-27, Atlanta

Post by Stained Diviner »

It's power matching all the way through, morning and afternoon. It's actually straighter in the morning when teams are guaranteed to play opponents with exactly the same record.
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Re: 2012 NAQT HSNCT: May 26-27, Atlanta

Post by AKKOLADE »

Right, I probably should have said "power matching between all teams" or something more clear.
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Re: 2012 NAQT HSNCT: May 26-27, Atlanta

Post by Stained Diviner »

In teams' 5th matches (Rounds 7 & 8), the pools were combined into 1-8-15, 2-14, 3-13, 4-12, 5-11, 6-10, and 7-9.

In teams' 6th matches (Rounds 8 & 9), the pools were combined into 1-2-7-8-9-14-15, 3-6-10-13, and 4-5-11-12.

After that, it's just one big pool.
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Re: 2012 NAQT HSNCT: May 26-27, Atlanta

Post by Whiter Hydra »

High Tech is about to play Dorman. If Dorman wins, they will finish the day 10-0, otherwise both teams will be 9-1.
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Re: 2012 NAQT HSNCT: May 26-27, Atlanta

Post by Stained Diviner »

The winners of the two Round 14 matches on iHigh will likely be the other 9-1 teams: Centennial vs Hunter A and DCC A vs Christianburg
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Re: 2012 NAQT HSNCT: May 26-27, Atlanta

Post by Stained Diviner »

David Reinstein
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Re: 2012 NAQT HSNCT: May 26-27, Atlanta

Post by Down and out in Quintana Roo »

If i see an error in individual statistics, how can that be rectified?
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Re: 2012 NAQT HSNCT: May 26-27, Atlanta

Post by Important Bird Area »

Statistics for today's games are now available. 91 teams will advance to tomorrow's playoffs.
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Re: 2012 NAQT HSNCT: May 26-27, Atlanta

Post by Important Bird Area »

Down and out in Quintana Roo wrote:If i see an error in individual statistics, how can that be rectified?
Email us ([email protected]); we'll fix it at some point next week.
Jeff Hoppes
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VP for Communication and history subject editor, NAQT
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Re: 2012 NAQT HSNCT: May 26-27, Atlanta

Post by Whiter Hydra »

The playoff bracket for tomorrow! It will be updated throughout the day.
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Re: 2012 NAQT HSNCT: May 26-27, Atlanta

Post by AKKOLADE »

Communi-Bear Silo State wrote:The playoff bracket for tomorrow! It will be updated throughout the day.
Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay. I am glad to see this back this year.
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Re: 2012 NAQT HSNCT: May 26-27, Atlanta

Post by Aaron Goldfein »

I'm curious, why does NAQT have double byes in the winners bracket, and how do they determine how many teams get them?
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Re: 2012 NAQT HSNCT: May 26-27, Atlanta

Post by quizbowllee »

For what it's worth, based entirely on what I heard today and without pouring over the questions in scrutiny, I believe that this might have been the absolute best set of questions I've ever heard. It was definitely the best set of HSNCT questions in my opinion. Kudos to NAQT for putting this set together.
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Re: 2012 NAQT HSNCT: May 26-27, Atlanta

Post by matt979 »

Aaron Goldfein wrote:I'm curious, why does NAQT have double byes in the winners bracket, and how do they determine how many teams get them?
Good question. The best way to answer it (and pardon the length here) involves the conceptual differences between NAQT's playoff bracket and a standard 64-team double elimination bracket (i.e. what you'd find if you googled that term).

Most obviously we have way more than 64 teams at 6-4 or better; this year, 91 to be exact*. Everyone reading this forum is probably familiar with the route we took here: All teams at exactly 6-4 are already on the brink of elimination. That buys us some space: For example, if your first playoff round has 64-N teams in the Winners' bracket and 2N teams already in the Losers' bracket, you're a round of obvious pairings away from having 32 teams in each bracket. Unfortunately starting this year we have too many teams to hit 32 + 32. (I've realized this since the plane ride back from '11 HSNCT.)

My next approach there was to aim for 24 + 48 (arbitrary round numbers), where eight teams would get second-round byes, so that we'd begin the *third* playoff round at 16 + 32. The first draft of the playoff bracket actually did that. Second-round byes sound odd, but if teams who get those byes also had first-round byes... well, those would be the very best teams in the field anyway. Coincidentally I've heard the (quite reasonable) complaint that in past years teams that went 8-2 or 9-1 didn't have all that big a pairing advantage over 7-3 teams.

What we found was that some teams would get second-round byes who hadn't had first-round byes; and more notably, this means that a big underdog could upset its way to a bye even though a team seeded immediately above that underdog team wouldn't have that opportunity. So having exactly six teams get second-round byes turned out to be the sweet spot where we avoid that problem.

*- EDIT: We know now that it's 91. Before the Saturday games actually happened there was a range of possibilities; I gave Harry White the exact #s from an e-mail thread yesterday (this morning?), and David Reinstein also has those #s.
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Re: 2012 NAQT HSNCT: May 26-27, Atlanta

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) »

Can you please fix the huge problem in the card system that led to NKC literally having four matchups against teams that had one more win than them? They went 5-5 with an absurdly difficult schedule, mostly because they played DCC, Oakland Mills, Ardsley, AND Hawken when their records weren't the same. Four games. That's insane and speaking as an alum I'm pretty upset for them. I get it, imbalanced matches have to happen. But why can't you at least make sure it only happens once for each team? How on EARTH did it happen to the same team FOUR times?
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Re: 2012 NAQT HSNCT: May 26-27, Atlanta

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Re: 2012 NAQT HSNCT: May 26-27, Atlanta

Post by Whiter Hydra »

Also, if someone would be willing to help me fill in the playoff bracket, let me know.
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Re: 2012 NAQT HSNCT: May 26-27, Atlanta

Post by Stained Diviner »

The short version of Matt's answer is that in the last year or two, NAQT has tried to move the Sunday byes to the first few rounds rather than spread them out throughout the day.

The short answer to Charlie's question is that it cannot be done. When two teams with different records play each other, then you don't know what record the card corresponds to afterwards. When a 4-0 team plays a 3-1 team, which is what happened in this case, then you don't know whether the winner of the match will be 5-0 or 4-1, and you don't know whether the loser will be 4-1 or 3-2. That uncertainty travels with the card the rest of the day, and it travels in the same direction for the rest of the day. Therefore, if a 3-2 team has a card that corresponds to a 4-1 or 3-2 record, then they have to play with that uncertainty the rest of the day. I tried to go gentle on those teams, as will be seen in my long answer below, but the only method I saw for getting rid of the problem was rejected by NAQT (see next paragraph).

This problem corresponds to having a number of teams that is not great for the system. 10 rounds of power matching works perfectly with 1024 teams and imperfectly with any other number. It works a lot better with 256 teams than 240--with 256 teams, the maximum number of uneven matches any team would have is 2, and it's very possible that no teams would even have that many. One of the suggestions I made to NAQT was that they play 240 teams on a 256 team schedule, but that suggestion was rejected because it meant having a few matches where both teams get credited with a win, which NAQT did not want to do. The upside of such a system would have been that no team would have been put in NKC's situation.

Another point I want to make, just to make sure everyone is clear on this, is that no team was targeted to get a difficult schedule. When I made the card schedule, I had no idea which team was going to be assigned to which card. Matt Bruce wrote a Perl program that randomly assigned teams to card numbers in a way that took seeding into account so that elite teams didn't play each other for the first few rounds. (The tournament was actually seeded completely, and the randomness is done so that the seeds are hidden.) Also, had NKC gotten to 3-1 in any order other than WLWW, this would not have happened to them. I'm not blaming them--I'm just making clear that they were not targeted.

I will now give a long answer to Charlie's question. Before I do so, I have laid out the card schedule for everybody here. If people want to fill in the results, that's great, but only do so if you can do it well: make sure you understand how the spreadsheet is set up and how the card system works, use full names of teams (copy and paste is recommended), and put the team that has the left card number on the left and the right card number on the right. Unlike last year's Google Doc, this does not advance teams automatically.

After each team had played four matches, there were 15 teams that were 4-0, so one of them had to play a 3-1 team. NKC had the misfortune of being that 3-1 team, and they lost to 4-0 DCC A.

After each team had played five matches, there were 2 cards that had records of either 4-1 or 3-2. One was NKC's, and the other belonged to Oakland Mills. Oakland Mills was the lucky counterpart to unlucky NKC. While 3-1 NKC was losing to a 4-0 team, 3-1 Oakland Mills was beating a 2-2 team (Georgetown B). Going strictly by the card system (meaning that I am not judging their strength but just looking at the card schedule), Oakland Mills should have been either the weakest 4-1 team or one of the strongest 3-2 teams. In fact, the card system had NKC ranked slightly higher, and NKC won the match.

After six matches, NKC had a card that could have belonged to a 5-1 or 4-2 team, and they were in fact 4-2. The only other such card was the 8 card, which had just lost to the 2 card (held by 5-1 DCC A, who had just lost to Hunter A). Because there were 21 cards that belonged to teams known to be 5-1, and there were an even number of cards that were at least potentially better than 5-1, a known 5-1 team had to play down. If they played a known 4-2 team, it would have increased the number of uncertain cards, which would have increased the overall number of mismatched games and the potential number of playoff teams. (Increasing playoff teams could increase the number of Sunday rounds, which NAQT does not want to do so that teams can sleep Sunday morning and catch planes Sunday night.) Furthermore, there was no way for me to assign NKC's card to an opponent which I knew would have the same record, since I didn't know what record NKC's card would correspond to--if Oakland Mills had won their match, then the card would have belonged to a 5-1 team. I didn't want the 5-1 team to play the 8 card, which potentially could have belonged to a 4-2 team that had played a brutal schedule, so I picked what should have been the weakest known 5-1 team and had them play NKC. This turned out to be Ardsley, and I have no idea whether or not they were in fact the weakest such team--I just tried to pick the weakest such card, which often does not correspond to the weakest such team.

After NKC lost to Ardsley, it played Belvidere North A. Both teams had cards that could have been 5-2 or 4-3, and both teams were in fact 4-3.

After eight matches, NKC had a card that corresponded to either 5-3 or 4-4, and once again I needed a team to play down. The decision as to which team should play up was based to some extent on avoiding the possibility of repeat matches as much as possible. NKC played the weakest card belonging to a team that was definitely 5-3, which turned out to be Hawken, who had to win twice to get from 3-3 to 5-3. Looking at Hawken's performance, they were the toughest luck 5-3 team rather than the weakest, with their 3 losses by a combined 50 points and their wins by about an average of 300 points, but that's not something that could have been seen when I was making the schedule.

After that loss, NKC had a match with the weakest known 4-5 card, but by then it was too late to make the playoffs, and they won to finish 5-5.
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Re: 2012 NAQT HSNCT: May 26-27, Atlanta

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) »

Ladue beats Hunter!
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Re: 2012 NAQT HSNCT: May 26-27, Atlanta

Post by Lightly Seared on the Reality Grill »

Aw, I should've made the joke about High Tech losing their first match out of pure :chip:-fueled irony that I was planning to make last night.
EDIT: No offense meant though.
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Re: 2012 NAQT HSNCT: May 26-27, Atlanta

Post by jonpin »

The Super Seven are Bellarmine (winner's bracket), Hunter vs LASA, DCC vs Ladue, Centennial vs Auburn. Centennial wins and will play Bellarmine; DCC and LASA will play in the other Final Four game.
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