Rules on Pronunciation
Rules on Pronunciation
How lenient should moderators be on pronunciation when accepting answers? I always tell my students that, while ideally they would pronounce all words correctly, their answers should be accepted as long as they are phonetically possible. However, we have been on both sides of this... moderators haven't accepted answers that were phonetically possible (for example, a moderator last year did not want to accept "Roanoake" when it was pronounced as 2 syllables instead of 3) and we have seen other teams awarded points on answers that were absolutely not phonetic possibilites (a moderator once accepted Phoenician pronounced FA-NIN-SEE-AN in spite of my attempt to point out that the middle syllable only has one "n" in it, not two.)
Cathy Hirsch
Chamblee Middle School (2013-present)
Central Gwinnett High School (1997-2012)
Chamblee Middle School (2013-present)
Central Gwinnett High School (1997-2012)
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Re: Rules on Pronunciation
I've always abided by the phonetic rule. However, I don't think that many readers are aware of this (at least from my experience)
Favorite example:
Given: Large Hadron (with a short 'a') Collider
Moderator: Sorry, the answer is Large Hadron (with a long 'a') Collider. Neg-5.
Favorite example:
Given: Large Hadron (with a short 'a') Collider
Moderator: Sorry, the answer is Large Hadron (with a long 'a') Collider. Neg-5.
Amit Bilgi
Southside '11
Fun fact: The "l" comes before the "g" in my last name.
Southside '11
Fun fact: The "l" comes before the "g" in my last name.
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Re: Rules on Pronunciation
I think you have the right idea and most sets of rules agree with you. Reasonable phonetic renderings of an answer should generally be accepted (and, I hope, are.) I think everyone probably has some horror stories of over-punctilious (usually completely wrong, "RIH-churd WHAG-nur" for Richard Wagner-type) moderator pronunciation requirement tartuffery.
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Mike Sorice
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Re: Rules on Pronunciation
As a Chinese person, I'd like to say that the pronunciation of the Chinese words can get a bit anglicized - sometimes in packets they even write the Romanization of Chinese words wrong ("long" means dragon, not "lung"). I think this could be fixed just with a little more preparation on the packet-writers/moderator's account, although it's not exactly too big of an issue considering the fact that there's not many Chinese questions in sets.
Webster Guan
California Institute of Technology (2012-)
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Re: Rules on Pronunciation
I... think you may have missed the point of this thread.
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Mike Sorice
Former Coach, Centennial High School of Champaign, IL (2014-2020) & Team Illinois (2016-2018)
Alumnus, Illinois ABT (2000-2002; 2003-2009) & Fenwick Scholastic Bowl (1999-2000)
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Former Coach, Centennial High School of Champaign, IL (2014-2020) & Team Illinois (2016-2018)
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Re: Rules on Pronunciation
what about berlioz pronounced with a "silent z"?
Is that wrong?
Is that wrong?
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Re: Rules on Pronunciation
? I have never head it with a silent z. I'd say correct since he has clear knowledge.New York Undercover wrote:what about berlioz pronounced with a "silent z"?
Is that wrong?
Mike Perovanovic
University of Ill.-Chicago '13
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Re: Rules on Pronunciation
If you learn things by reading books, you're often going to be left with words that you have learned and memorized, but that you've never heard pronounced, yet alone pronounced correctly. The inevitable result of this, I think it's fair to say, is that many players will be outright guessing as to how some answers are pronounced.
Thus I favor extremely liberal rules. To bring up an infamous protest from the recent past (pompadou/pompadour), I'd even accept incorrect but reasonable mispronunciations like not saying the last syllable of a French word whose last syllable is actually pronounced.
Thus I favor extremely liberal rules. To bring up an infamous protest from the recent past (pompadou/pompadour), I'd even accept incorrect but reasonable mispronunciations like not saying the last syllable of a French word whose last syllable is actually pronounced.
Bruce
Harvard '10 / UChicago '07 / Roycemore School '04
ACF Member emeritus
My guide to using Wikipedia as a question source
Harvard '10 / UChicago '07 / Roycemore School '04
ACF Member emeritus
My guide to using Wikipedia as a question source
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Re: Rules on Pronunciation
What about the replacement of "Lara" with "Laura" where the error leads to a noticeably different answer?
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Re: Rules on Pronunciation
Ah, I recognize this one. It was the finals of the Norcross Prison Bowl Mirror, and the question was asking about the lover of Dr. Zhivago. I am interested to see what other people think about it.Andrew's a Freshman wrote:What about the replacement of "Lara" with "Laura" where the error leads to a noticeably different answer?
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Re: Rules on Pronunciation
You've got to be kidding. Most people would pronounce the two of those things the same and it shows no knowledge gap whatsoever no matter how you pronounce either one of them for any answer.AlphaQuizBowler wrote:Ah, I recognize this one. It was the finals of the Norcross Prison Bowl Mirror, and the question was asking about the lover of Dr. Zhivago. I am interested to see what other people think about it.Andrew's a Freshman wrote:What about the replacement of "Lara" with "Laura" where the error leads to a noticeably different answer?
Mr. Andrew Chrzanowski
Caesar Rodney High School
Camden, Delaware
CRHS '97-'01
University of Delaware '01-'05
CRHS quizbowl coach '06-'12
http://crquizbowl.edublogs.org
Caesar Rodney High School
Camden, Delaware
CRHS '97-'01
University of Delaware '01-'05
CRHS quizbowl coach '06-'12
http://crquizbowl.edublogs.org
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Re: Rules on Pronunciation
I have to disagree...I don't think most people would say them the same. One is LAH-ra and the other is LO-ra. In this example though, I would probably ask them to spell it.Carangoides ciliarius wrote:You've got to be kidding. Most people would pronounce the two of those things the same and it shows no knowledge gap whatsoever no matter how you pronounce either one of them for any answer.AlphaQuizBowler wrote:Ah, I recognize this one. It was the finals of the Norcross Prison Bowl Mirror, and the question was asking about the lover of Dr. Zhivago. I am interested to see what other people think about it.Andrew's a Freshman wrote:What about the replacement of "Lara" with "Laura" where the error leads to a noticeably different answer?
BJ Houlding
Winnebago '04
Saint Joseph's College '08
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Winnebago '04
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Re: Rules on Pronunciation
I pronounce Laura, if not completely like Lara, then at least close enough that you couldn't distinguish them in a game.
Charlie Dees, North Kansas City HS '08
"I won't say more because I know some of you parse everything I say." - Jeremy Gibbs
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"I won't say more because I know some of you parse everything I say." - Jeremy Gibbs
"At one TJ tournament the neg prize was the Hampshire College ultimate frisbee team (nude) calender featuring one Evan Silberman. In retrospect that could have been a disaster." - Harry White
Re: Rules on Pronunciation
Yeah, these should be indistinguishable, and I would accept either of the pronunciations that BJ listed as correct.
Auroni Gupta (she/her)
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Re: Rules on Pronunciation
I mean...who cares? Why are we looking for ways to screw over people with knowledge? Someone who says "Laura" clearly knows what they're talking about, since they didn't say "Katerina" or "Elizabeth," but something within a margin of error of the actual answer. Games get heated: people make slight mispronunciations or remember answers imperfectly within the time limit, regardless of the completeness of their knowledge. While we shouldn't accept incorrect responses, we should be merciful to knowledgeable players who stumble a little bit in giving their answers. ACF tournaments accept any response with the consonants in the right place, a compromise which maintains the game's academic rigor without toolishly punishing knowledge in favor of gamesmanship.Dresden_The_Moderator wrote:I have to disagree...I don't think most people would say them the same. One is LAH-ra and the other is LO-ra. In this example though, I would probably ask them to spell it.Carangoides ciliarius wrote:You've got to be kidding. Most people would pronounce the two of those things the same and it shows no knowledge gap whatsoever no matter how you pronounce either one of them for any answer.AlphaQuizBowler wrote:Ah, I recognize this one. It was the finals of the Norcross Prison Bowl Mirror, and the question was asking about the lover of Dr. Zhivago. I am interested to see what other people think about it.Andrew's a Freshman wrote:What about the replacement of "Lara" with "Laura" where the error leads to a noticeably different answer?
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Re: Rules on Pronunciation
Either can (and actually maybe should) be pronounced the same as the other. In fact, I wouldn't be too shocked if there are some English translations of Zhivago that render the character's name as Laura. At any rate, any reasonable pronunciation of Laura should be accepted as a reasonable attempt at pronouncing Lara and, even if you disagree, it's questionable whether they're properly distinct names.
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Mike Sorice
Former Coach, Centennial High School of Champaign, IL (2014-2020) & Team Illinois (2016-2018)
Alumnus, Illinois ABT (2000-2002; 2003-2009) & Fenwick Scholastic Bowl (1999-2000)
Member, ACF (Emeritus), IHSSBCA, & PACE
Former Coach, Centennial High School of Champaign, IL (2014-2020) & Team Illinois (2016-2018)
Alumnus, Illinois ABT (2000-2002; 2003-2009) & Fenwick Scholastic Bowl (1999-2000)
Member, ACF (Emeritus), IHSSBCA, & PACE
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Re: Rules on Pronunciation
Aside from the quizbowl aspect, I've just always thought of them as two different names with different pronunciations. Maybe it's a regional thing? I just know I would never pronounce Lara Croft and Laura Ingalls Wilder the same. Regardless of the answer acceptability, I'm just curious to know how people would pronounce them.Captain Sinico wrote:Either can (and actually maybe should) be pronounced the same as the other. In fact, I wouldn't be too shocked if there are some English translations of Zhivago that render the character's name as Laura. At any rate, any reasonable pronunciation of Laura should be accepted as a reasonable attempt at pronouncing Lara and, even if you disagree, it's questionable whether they're properly distinct names.
M
BJ Houlding
Winnebago '04
Saint Joseph's College '08
IHSSBCA Certified Moderator
Winnebago '04
Saint Joseph's College '08
IHSSBCA Certified Moderator
Re: Rules on Pronunciation
Yes, if you have a midwestern accent you're pretty unlikely to pronounce them exactly the same (neither Ed nor I do, for example). At any rate, I agree with Mike.Dresden_The_Moderator wrote:Aside from the quizbowl aspect, I've just always thought of them as two different names with different pronunciations. Maybe it's a regional thing? I just know I would never pronounce Lara Croft and Laura Ingalls Wilder the same. Regardless of the answer acceptability, I'm just curious to know how people would pronounce them.Captain Sinico wrote:Either can (and actually maybe should) be pronounced the same as the other. In fact, I wouldn't be too shocked if there are some English translations of Zhivago that render the character's name as Laura. At any rate, any reasonable pronunciation of Laura should be accepted as a reasonable attempt at pronouncing Lara and, even if you disagree, it's questionable whether they're properly distinct names.
M
Susan
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Re: Rules on Pronunciation
FIFYmyamphigory wrote:Yes, if you have a midwestern lack of accent you're pretty unlikely to pronounce them exactly the same
It's pretty clear (to this midwesterner at least) that Lara and Laura have distinct and different pronunciations. However, the point about this being a name rendered in translation is valid. The point about accents varying regionally is also a good one. The names are more or less interchangeable in the quizbowl-answer sense.
Brian Weikle
I say what it occurs to me to say when I think I hear people say things. More, I cannot say.
I say what it occurs to me to say when I think I hear people say things. More, I cannot say.
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Re: Rules on Pronunciation
I apologise. It's obvious how much you dislike sarcasm. I'll make sure my next question is completely serious.Carangoides ciliarius wrote:You've got to be kidding. Most people would pronounce the two of those things the same and it shows no knowledge gap whatsoever no matter how you pronounce either one of them for any answer.
This seems to summarise most of the points that were brought up. Thanks.Coelacanth wrote:FIFYmyamphigory wrote:Yes, if you have a midwestern lack of accent you're pretty unlikely to pronounce them exactly the same
It's pretty clear (to this midwesterner at least) that Lara and Laura have distinct and different pronunciations. However, the point about this being a name rendered in translation is valid. The point about accents varying regionally is also a good one. The names are more or less interchangeable in the quizbowl-answer sense.
Norcross High School '11
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Re: Rules on Pronunciation
I think foreign names should get a little bit of leeway in pronunciation. Aside from that, phonetically correct should be acceptable. Even if you think some kid is dumb for pronouncing Berlioz BURLYOZZ or even if you think he/she is doing it on purpose, it still has to be acceptable since it still shows knowledge of that noun.
Kay, Chicago.
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Re: Rules on Pronunciation
BURLY O's--Worst. Cereal. Ever.Arsonists Get All the Girls wrote:I think foreign names should get a little bit of leeway in pronunciation. Aside from that, phonetically correct should be acceptable. Even if you think some kid is dumb for pronouncing Berlioz BURLYOZZ or even if you think he/she is doing it on purpose, it still has to be acceptable since it still shows knowledge of that noun.
BJ Houlding
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Saint Joseph's College '08
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Re: Rules on Pronunciation
That's far too vague. The question is "Leeway how?" After all, demonstrating some knowledge is not and cannot be sufficient to have an answer accepted: there has to be some level at which the demonstrated knowledge is sufficient and below which it isn't.
"Either a form of the correct answer, or a plausible phonetic rendering given the the printed answer" is the only such standard I can think of off-hand that I like at all. That is to say, when judging someone's answer, if it's not exactly one of the correct answers to your ear, consider whether they (or, really, any educated person who can read and talk) would give the answer that way if you gave them a printed form of the answer and a moment to consider and told them to read it aloud. If so, take it; if not, don't; and if not sure, inquire further.
M
"Either a form of the correct answer, or a plausible phonetic rendering given the the printed answer" is the only such standard I can think of off-hand that I like at all. That is to say, when judging someone's answer, if it's not exactly one of the correct answers to your ear, consider whether they (or, really, any educated person who can read and talk) would give the answer that way if you gave them a printed form of the answer and a moment to consider and told them to read it aloud. If so, take it; if not, don't; and if not sure, inquire further.
M
Mike Sorice
Former Coach, Centennial High School of Champaign, IL (2014-2020) & Team Illinois (2016-2018)
Alumnus, Illinois ABT (2000-2002; 2003-2009) & Fenwick Scholastic Bowl (1999-2000)
Member, ACF (Emeritus), IHSSBCA, & PACE
Former Coach, Centennial High School of Champaign, IL (2014-2020) & Team Illinois (2016-2018)
Alumnus, Illinois ABT (2000-2002; 2003-2009) & Fenwick Scholastic Bowl (1999-2000)
Member, ACF (Emeritus), IHSSBCA, & PACE
Re: Rules on Pronunciation
As usual, I think Mike's solution makes the most sense.
Mike Cheyne
Formerly U of Minnesota
"You killed HSAPQ"--Matt Bollinger
Formerly U of Minnesota
"You killed HSAPQ"--Matt Bollinger
Re: Rules on Pronunciation
Thread over. This solution wins.Captain Sinico wrote:That's far too vague. The question is "Leeway how?" After all, demonstrating some knowledge is not and cannot be sufficient to have an answer accepted: there has to be some level at which the demonstrated knowledge is sufficient and below which it isn't.
"Either a form of the correct answer, or a plausible phonetic rendering given the the printed answer" is the only such standard I can think of off-hand. That is to say, when judging someone's answer, if it's not exactly one of the correct answers to your ear, consider whether they (or, really, any educated who can read and talk) would give the answer that way if you gave them a printed form of the answer and a moment to consider and told them to read it aloud. If so, take it; if not, don't; and if not sure, inquire further.
M
Kay, Chicago.