Illinois 04-05

mlaird · Post by **mlaird** » Tue Nov 30, 2004 8:34 pm

Not goes, went. Now I'm the frosh/soph coach. It's kind of fun trying to figure out who everyone is. I still don't know who the Admiral is. Cause my theory of Egan was shot out of the water.

Tegan · Post by **Tegan** » Wed Dec 01, 2004 9:03 am

An Admiral, I am not....just a humble ensign.

(but I would like to know as well...AHEM!)

Richards is always interesting.......a lot of the not-so-ususal suspects....especially from the SICA come out (Richards, B-B, and the L-W's are pretty much the usual SICA suspects).....but you get to finally see teams like Sandburg and such. Also, it is one of the few touranments where Thee IMSA is permitted to attend.

I like the change in format (without actually "changing the format").....and I like the fact that the "B" teams play "B" teams......let 'em beat each other up rather than serving as fodder for Fremd (as my "B" team did a few weeks ago)......schools like Fremd can beat up on the "A" teams and still get all of their wins.

dtaylor4 · Post by **dtaylor4** » Wed Dec 01, 2004 11:47 am

Tegan wrote: I like the change in format (without actually "changing the format").....and I like the fact that the "B" teams play "B" teams......let 'em beat each other up rather than serving as fodder for Fremd (as my "B" team did a few weeks ago)......schools like Fremd can beat up on the "A" teams and still get all of their wins.

First of all, where did your "B" team get beat by Fremd? My first guess would be the kickoff, but other than that, I did not know of any tournaments taking place up there recently. Also, what makes you think IMSA will live up to expectations when they didn't even win a kickoff? Don't count D Mac out either.

Tegan · Post by **Tegan** » Wed Dec 01, 2004 12:40 pm

DaGeneral wrote:First of all, where did your "B" team get beat by Fremd? My first guess would be the kickoff, but other than that, I did not know of any tournaments taking place up there recently. Also, what makes you think IMSA will live up to expectations when they didn't even win a kickoff? Don't count D Mac out either.

It was at the kickoff at VonSteuben. Fremd brought their "A" game, and they were quite good.

As for IMSA, I was not attempting to judge, necessarily, how good or bad they were. In fact, when I had a short handed team last year, we came 30 points away from beating IMSA (of course, maybe they were short handed too). It is a matter of saying that IMSA, because of its "special status," does not receive as many open invitations to tournaments. While they have not been the juggernaut of 8 years ago, many coaches feel (I am not one of them) that IMSA should not be permitted to particiapte in academic competition, since academic acheivement is a prerequisite for attendance.

I'm not even sure what format of advancement Richards will use, or its seeding format. In years past, they had six champions. Sometimes all of the good teams are placed in one bracket, and all of the weaker teams are placed in another. In some ways, it is the most difficult touranment to predict the outcome of.....it is where Wheaton North picked up the "1" in their 95-1 record last year.......I think some school in Wilmette beat them.

mlaird · Post by **mlaird** » Wed Dec 01, 2004 5:26 pm

.....it is where Wheaton North picked up the "1" in their 95-1 record last year.......I think some school in Wilmette beat them.

Regina Dominican?

Gordon Gekko · Post by **Gordon Gekko** » Wed Dec 01, 2004 11:26 pm

DaGeneral wrote: Also, what makes you think IMSA will live up to expectations when they didn't even win a kickoff? Don't count D Mac out either.

Although I would say that expectations for IMSA were not mentioned, you have to admit they have been flying under the radar for a while. Just by the nature of the school itself you have to consider them at least a marginal threat whenever they enter a tournament. In a way there is less pressure on them, being in the same sectional as the three time state champion and arguably one of the best (if not the best team) of all time.

As for counting teams out, I think there a lot of teams that can't be counted out as has been mentioned upsets are likely to happen here due to the nature of the questions....while i think the top 4 rankings this far are accurate, they are at this point of the season ....meaningless...the head to head among the top teams are a lot more important...

dtaylor4 · Post by **dtaylor4** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 10:13 am

Gordon Gekko wrote: Although I would say that expectations for IMSA were not mentioned, you have to admit they have been flying under the radar for a while. Just by the nature of the school itself you have to consider them at least a marginal threat whenever they enter a tournament. In a way there is less pressure on them, being in the same sectional as the three time state champion and arguably one of the best (if not the best team) of all time.

it's funny because the year before wn's three-peat they were not in the same sectional and in fact finished second to imsa that year then all of a sudden they are in the same sectional and wheaton pounds them three straight times at sectionals

potato0328 · Post by **potato0328** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 2:56 am

so, looks like the results are in from today's Richards tournament.

1. Fremd
2. Maine South
3. Wheaton North
4. Maine East

Also, Stevenson B won the B division.

it was a good tournament, lots of fun and good competition. fremd (where i'm from) had a solid day and managed to win a close match against wheaton north in the afternoon. anybody have comments on the tournament?

Tegan · Post by **Tegan** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 6:03 pm

Being from Maine South it's hard for me to complain either. My team had some lights out play against some decent competition, and played well (with a little luck at one point in the match) against Stevenson. Libertyville played great, and I was glad to see little Evergreen Park play about as good as they've ever played in the last several years (beat Libertyville, lost to us by 20).

Anyone out there who does not believe: Fremd IS for real....as real as a block of concrete falling on your head.

HAHAHA · Post by **HAHAHA** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 6:25 pm

Being from Fremd, I was quite pleased with our performance. I was a little disappointed that we didn't get to play New Trier, Stevenson, or D-Mac, as I have yet to play those teams this year, but I was impressed by several teams we played (notably Maine South).

I also enjoyed playing IMSA, as they are a team I have never, as far as I can remember, played against, or even been in a tournament with.

solonqb · Post by **solonqb** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 8:11 pm

How many of you guys plan on playing out of state (for Nationals or otherwise)?

HAHAHA · Post by **HAHAHA** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 8:17 pm

Well, I'm pretty sure my team won't be, so Team Illinois will be my only opportunity. As far as I know, not too many teams do national tournaments, but I could be wrong.

mlaird · Post by **mlaird** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 9:36 pm

Loyola used to go to Chip' (

)'s tournament in D.C. .... and then we stopped. This year there is opportunity for Illinois teams to go to NAQT nationals as Loyola will be hosting the Illinois NAQT state qualifier on February 26, 2005. Everyone is welcome! For info contact [email protected]

No Sollositing On Premise · Mon Dec 06, 2004 1:11 am

at last summer's PACE we (TJ B) beat New Trier in the playoffs, in what I remember to be a close game. They were pretty good, but they were the only Illinois team I have ever seen in my four trips to national tournaments.

Tegan · Post by **Tegan** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 9:10 am

We qualified for NAQTfinished in the top 4 at Conserve (Wisconsin), and we plan on attending Loyola this year, and perhaps one out of state tournament in either Minnesota or Indiana (NAQT). It is likely that we will not go to the Nationals (even if we do somehow qualify again) due to time and money constraints.

Illinois has a great tradition of strong teams (Loyola won the Iowa State Championship last year, but did not even win their own Regional in Illinois....Read as: ranked #6-11 in Illinois is good enough for #1 in Iowa). However, with only a few exceptions, Illinois does not have any tradition of attending national tournaments.

Part of this reason is because, for many years, we were explicitly banned by the state (thanks to a couple of downstate principals who pushed through the legislation). That ban is now overturned, but there is not a great deal of publicity in telling coaches this.....partially because there is concern that someone may attempt to put the ban back in place.

dtaylor4 · Post by **dtaylor4** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 11:04 am

[quote="HAHAHA"]Being from Fremd, I was quite pleased with our performance. I was a little disappointed that we didn't get to play New Trier, Stevenson, or D-Mac, as I have yet to play those teams this year, but I was impressed by several teams we played (notably Maine South).
(/quote]

Stevenson is for real. In the last morning round, my team had to beat stevenson to win the group. it was tied 60-up after the first, tied 110-up after the second, and in the third period they got five tossups and got every single part of every bonus except one. we only managed one tossup but swept the bonus. against all the others in the group (including fenwick), we played pretty damn well.

dtaylor4 · Post by **dtaylor4** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 11:05 am

Tegan wrote:We qualified for NAQTfinished in the top 4 at Conserve (Wisconsin), and we plan on attending Loyola this year, and perhaps one out of state tournament in either Minnesota or Indiana (NAQT). It is likely that we will not go to the Nationals (even if we do somehow qualify again) due to time and money constraints.

Illinois has a great tradition of strong teams (Loyola won the Iowa State Championship last year, but did not even win their own Regional in Illinois....Read as: ranked #6-11 in Illinois is good enough for #1 in Iowa). However, with only a few exceptions, Illinois does not have any tradition of attending national tournaments.

Part of this reason is because, for many years, we were explicitly banned by the state (thanks to a couple of downstate principals who pushed through the legislation). That ban is now overturned, but there is not a great deal of publicity in telling coaches this.....partially because there is concern that someone may attempt to put the ban back in place.

why would any downstate coaches want to ban teams from attending national tournaments? in years past d-mac has finished as high as 8th at the tournament in lake forest

Stained Diviner · Post by **Stained Diviner** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 1:40 pm

Schools banned national tournaments and practicing outside of season because they didn't like losing by 300 points to teams that practiced out of season. Those same schools are still losing by 300 points if they are still competing at all.

I hope that more Illinois teams will enter national tournaments. I wish that ASCN allowed a cheaper entry fee for commuting teams, and I don't mind Mr. Beall coming to town. My team will probably got to NAQT or PACE, depending on which one fits into our schedule better, though nothing is guaranteed at this point.

Good teams in Illinois should not think that they have to win or place in a particular tournament to go to Nationals. There are plenty of at-large spaces for teams willing to apply. Nothing against Cheeseheads, but if NAQT can take five teams from Wisconsin then they should be willing to accept fifty from Illinois. (Nothing against NAQT either--we patronize them often and are happy with the product.)

As to the Richards results, it's looking more and more like Fremd is the team to beat this year. Congrats to everybody from Palatine and Park Ridge.

Admiral · Post by **Admiral** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 9:44 pm

Well......last year, Richards is where Wheaton North lost before winning everything else.......I didn't see the finals, but it looks like "the usual suspects" (except for Fremd) all got upset at some point.

While Fremd looks pretty darn good, I don't know if I would go putting these Maines ahead of Wheaton North, New Trier, and Stevenson just yet...

AND....who knows what would have happened if the Knights had shown up.

gosaints · Post by **gosaints** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 10:20 pm

Why didn't more Illinois teams show up for the NAQT tournament at Northwestern? Just curious.

Gordon Gekko · Post by **Gordon Gekko** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 11:41 pm

Admiral wrote:Well......last year, Richards is where Wheaton North lost before winning everything else.......I didn't see the finals, but it looks like "the usual suspects" (except for Fremd) all got upset at some point.

While Fremd looks pretty darn good, I don't know if I would go putting these Maines ahead of Wheaton North, New Trier, and Stevenson just yet...

AND....who knows what would have happened if the Knights had shown up.

I think that is what makes Richards so interesting is the fact the upsets happen. I don't know if I would put the Maine's up there at this point but I would defintely not overlook them either, two coaches who know how to coach both will have their teams ready come March. Remember Maine South pulled an upset in the Regional last year. If anything else March is going to be interesting as the list of possible contenders grows. I would still say there are only a few I would put at the top of the list, but anything can happen....
I wish I would have stuck around to see Fremd play the final, I can't comment on them since I haven't seen them play but based on everyone's views here, sounds like they are a very dangerous team....

Stained Diviner · Post by **Stained Diviner** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 7:42 am

My response to gosaints--

The problems many coaches have with Northwestern is that it is sometimes disorganized (one year especially so, though it sometimes is exceptionally well organized), it charges more than other tournaments, it often lasts too long, and the format/questions are not what we are used to. At most Illinois tournaments, the cost is $50-60, you go home by 12:30 if you don't do well, the format is 5-on-5 with 20% of the questions in math, and weaker teams don't have to listen to long tossup intros they know nothing about. (Why go into all that stuff about the Blackhawk War when you could have just asked who the 16th President was?

)

Of course, I am the wrong person to answer the question because I love the tournament and always try to send two teams.

Tegan · Post by **Tegan** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 9:25 am

One of the big debates I have with Dr. Riley at Loyola is that of timing. For reasons of philosophy, I will not start Maine South's season before the last week of October. That is when Northwestern has their tournament (traditionally), and is well past when UIUC has their earlybird. Bot hgreat tournaments, and my team has come to love NAQT style (and I have loved it for a long time). But it is just too early for most teams. Many schools do not start their seasons until late November-early December....and a few won't even start until January. If it were moved later in the season (as it used to be) they would easily draw 50-60 teams. mostly from Illinois.

The problem is, there are some coaches who consider it the height of sacrilege to announce a tournament date that is already "occupied". I say competition is good, and will improve the quality of tournaments. I think this is part of the reason why these tournaments have been relegated to so early in the season, and they really don't have to be.

In addition, unlike athletics, there seems to be some taboo about running a tournament on a holiday (like Veterna's Day, Winter Break, Thanksgiving, Winter Break, MLK Day, President's Day, etc). I think tournament offerings on those days would have a limited draw, but could be supported.

dtaylor4 · Post by **dtaylor4** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 10:38 am

Tegan wrote:One of the big debates I have with Dr. Riley at Loyola is that of timing. For reasons of philosophy, I will not start Maine South's season before the last week of October. That is when Northwestern has their tournament (traditionally), and is well past when UIUC has their earlybird. Bot hgreat tournaments, and my team has come to love NAQT style (and I have loved it for a long time). But it is just too early for most teams. Many schools do not start their seasons until late November-early December....and a few won't even start until January. If it were moved later in the season (as it used to be) they would easily draw 50-60 teams. mostly from Illinois.

Around here, in our "league", we have 3-team "triangulars" on the first four tuesday nights in october, and the following two saturdays for the v and jv tournaments. As to Reinstein's comment, most teams would practice if there were more downstate tournaments. there's the kickoff, any athletic conferences, charleston, any tournaments run by the u of i or eiu, masonic, and state series. that's not much. d-mac is really the only team from central or further downstate to compete in more than a handful of tournaments

David Riley · Post by **David Riley** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 12:15 pm

Dr. Egan might have a point about the timing, but I think Dr. Reinstein's comment about "what we are used to" is more on target. I register my team for tournaments in several different formats. In almost all cases, the only Illlinois teams I see are the same ones--for example, Wheaton North, New Trier, Stevenson, Decatur MacArthur, and a handful of others--that I see whenever there is a format that is different from the one used for the Illinois State tournament series.

This Feburary, I will be hosting the NAQT state qualifier for Illinois. I'm not expecting more than sixteen teams--I hope I have more and am proved wrong!

pblessman · Post by **pblessman** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 9:27 pm

ReinsteinD wrote:Nothing against Cheeseheads, but if NAQT can take five teams from Wisconsin then they should be willing to accept fifty from Illinois.

Hello? Nothing against cheeseheads, but...? May I point out that those teams (Wausau West, Wayland Academy, Rufus King and Conserve A and B) were VERY competitive in the Illinois tournaments they entered, especially Conserve and Rufus King? At the Northwestern NAQT tournament three of the top eight teams were Rufus King, Conserve A and B... And Conserve won two opf the three Frosh/Soph tournaments we entered... Rufus King also did very well in Illinois tournaments and backed all that up with a fantastic 8th place finish at NAQT nationals (Wausau West placed 19th, Conserve 25th and Wayland and Conserve B both went 4-6).

Anyway... Illinois has a much stronger circuit than Wisconsin (or Indiana), but last year Wisconsin had some legitimate national caliber teams, and there are not even close to FIFTY IL teams that could have competed with Conserve or Rufus King. Sorry about the rant, but I felt I had to defend the honor of Wisconsin (and I don't even live there anymore...) and to a degree also of the NAQT HSNCT- if what you were saying is true, (fifty IL teams are NAQT NAtionals caliber) then what does that say about the quality of the tournament?

Stained Diviner · Post by **Stained Diviner** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 7:58 am

Conserve and Rufus King were very good last year, but five teams from Wisconsin is almost a majority. There are fewer than 20 Scholastic Bowl schools in Wisconsin, and more than 500 in Illinois.

Conserve and Rufus King did well at NU, but the team that simultaneously took 1st and 4th at NU last year (and whose B Team beat Conserve's A Team on the last question in a morning match) came in third place in its IHSA Sectional.

I don't want to start a flame war here. I have a lot of respect for Mr. Blessman, who put together in one month a team that was able to take my team into overtime and who has done a lot for Quiz Bowl in the Midwest. I am willing to concede that my remark above used some hyperbole, but there are a lot of Illinois teams better than the fifth best Wisconsin team. Mr. Blessman is correct that the fifth best Wisconsin team did respectably at Nationals.

Tegan · Post by **Tegan** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 8:40 am

Gentlemen,

I certainly don't want to see a war of words between two such esteemed coaches, both of whom I proudly call colleagues for their work and dedication to young people.

I can only speak in terms of 03-04, as that is the last time I saw teams from Wisconsin and Illinois. Rufus King (Milwaukee) and Conserve (Land O'Lakes) were not only the best teams in Wisconsin, but two of the best in the nation. That was an honor earned by great players and good coaching.

As Coach Blessman noted, Wisconsin lacks the level of organization (and as Coach Reinstein noted, the level of particiaption) that Illinois is blessed with. Certainly, if that level of organization and involvement existed in Wisconsin, I would believe that, in a very short time, the level of competition would be equal.

My Maine South team was at the very well run Conserve Tournament last year. Maine South was a lucky regional champion and finished fourth in its sectional in Illinois. At Conserve, we defeated a great many "B", "C", and "D" teams by large margins, but did manage to comfortably (not blow out) the team then ranked as #3 in Wisconsin. We were then blown completely out of the water by RK and Conserve. I think that it is important to note that wile any state can have some truly outstanding teams, the amount of particiaption may limit or enhance the number of "second and third teir" teams. In that case, the number of "second and third teir teams" is likely greater in Illinois, but that is only because of the now nearly two decades of expansion and organization. I have little doubt (and I'm sure Dr. Reinstein agrees) that if Wisconsin was ever more organized, the number of great teams there would increase beyond the handful that are there now.

Just don't get me started on those Hoosiers!

pblessman · Post by **pblessman** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 11:12 pm

ReinsteinD wrote:I am willing to concede that my remark above used some hyperbole... Mr. Blessman is correct that the fifth best Wisconsin team did respectably at Nationals.

I will interpret this as a concilliatory tone and will likely try to strike the same. I guess my request is to let Illinois stand on its own merits- is Illinois REALLY one of the top Quiz Bowl states in the nation? I (personally) believe that it is, but nationally IL has NO reputation, and I think that this should be seen as a challenge to Illinois Quiz Bowl. The only way Illinois can prove how good quiz bowl really is in the fair Land of Lincoln is to go out and prove it "on the field of battle."

Unfortunately, very few Illinois teams ever make it beyond state borders for national or other tournaments. Why is this? Aside from the previous "ban" on competing at National tournaments, I understand that NAQT and other formats are different from Illinois format and that out-of-state tournaments can eat up considerable time and financial resources, but I would think that mixing things up a bit would be of interest to top IL programs. David mentions "500 quiz bowl programs" in Illinois, but let's be realistic- only fifty of these schools truly take quiz bowl seriously enough to commit to what most people nutty enough to read this message board would consider a solid schedule (e.g. at least 6 or 7 varsity tournaments), so in the course of a season the top IL teams end up playing the same teams at a variety of tournaments over and over again... Why not subsititute one IL tournament for an out-of-state event in Indiana, Michigan or even Virginia (Thomas Jefferson runs a really competitive tournament)?

My request is therefore clear: There is no need to bash other states' programs, even if they are as pathetic on a general level as Wisconsin's has been. Let everybody stand on their accomplishments! As it stands right now, Rufus King can point to a very impressive National performance, while Wheaton North and the other IL powerhouses have to ponder what-if scenarios and stake their claims through state supremacy, rather than based on a head-to-head match-up against national powerhouses, be it Dorman, TJ, State College, DCC or other names which are nationally recognized as being top-notch.

I hope this is seen as concilliatory (yet challenging). I have always held a great affection for Illinois quiz bowl, during my time as coach of the Latin School, and then while working for Conserve School and now Culver Academies... but I want to challenge the top IL teams to step out of the IL bubble and take some risks, because that's what awaits: Now that the door to National Competition is open, IL teams have the opportunity to prove that they can rightfully claim to be a leading QB state, but this will have to be done by entering teams in interstate and national competitions, not simply extrapolating from IL success to national potential.

(<- See? It's a happy challenge!)

Skepticism and Animal Feed · Sun Dec 12, 2004 12:35 am

Please don't say "Illinois Quiz Bowl" unless you are refering to a program at the University of Illinois.

At the high school level, it is SCHOLASTIC BOWL.

Stained Diviner · Post by **Stained Diviner** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 8:26 am

Congratulations to Culver Academy for knocking out New Trier yesterday at the Loyola Frosh/Soph.

Last year, New Trier went to PACE and tied for ninth out of forty. Though we got blown out by TJ, MW, and St. John's, we were very proud to make the cut for the Championship Rounds.

Rockford Auburn went to Chip Beall New Orleans. They were the number one seed after the preliminary matches but lost to the 16 seed in a tournament where most of the top seeds were quickly eliminated.

Illinois has also held its own at PAC, reaching the final match in 4 of the last 7 years.

I think there will be more of an Illinois presence at Nationals in the future, though you never know.

One problem with the Illinois season is that it's exhausting. Without ever driving more than an hour, I can pretty much enter a tournament every weekend from mid-October through mid-March (and I pretty much do). By the end of the season, I often feel like me an my students have had our fill. That being said, there is a good chance we'll be at NAQT this year.

Matt Weiner · Post by **Matt Weiner** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 11:46 am

Bruce wrote:Please don't say "Illinois Quiz Bowl" unless you are refering to a program at the University of Illinois.

At the high school level, it is SCHOLASTIC BOWL.

Different areas of the country use a plethora of names. For the purpose of this board it's a lot more convenient to use a standardized set of terms.

No Sollositing On Premise · Sun Dec 12, 2004 12:02 pm

You never played TJ A, but you played TJ's B team in the playoffs and lost by a hundred points. I think that if there are a lot of teams of New Trier's caliber in Illinois then they are probably a fairly strong quiz bowl state, but not as strong as VA/MD/DC last year.

New Trier had a very solid tournament overall, losing only to ER and Gov in their prelims bracket, which didn't really have any other top tier teams. After qualifying for the playoffs, they lost to Gov A and TJ B by a decent margin (~100 points), got blown out by St. Johns and State College A (~200 points), and beat Raleigh Charter by 15 points.

I think that if New Trier had attended a few mid-atlantic tournaments last year they would consistently make the playoffs and quarters but probably not make it farther than the semis. With TJ squared, Gov, ER, RM, Gonzaga, Blake, C-ville, and PA all having very strong years it wasn't usually easy to advance in big tourneys last year.

Dan Greenstein · Post by **Dan Greenstein** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 6:50 pm

Matt Weiner wrote:
Bruce wrote:Please don't say "Illinois Quiz Bowl" unless you are refering to a program at the University of Illinois.

At the high school level, it is SCHOLASTIC BOWL.
Different areas of the country use a plethora of names. For the purpose of this board it's a lot more convenient to use a standardized set of terms.

I concur with Mr. Weiner. First of all, the University of Illinois team's official name is "UIUC Academic Buzzer Team." Secondly, it is not difficult to tell from the context of the thread, not to mention the forum in which the thread is located, that we are talking about the high school circuit of Illinois.

Captain Sinico · Post by **Captain Sinico** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 8:53 pm

Dan Greenstein wrote:
Matt Weiner wrote:
Bruce wrote:Please don't say "Illinois Quiz Bowl" unless you are refering to a program at the University of Illinois.

At the high school level, it is SCHOLASTIC BOWL.
Different areas of the country use a plethora of names. For the purpose of this board it's a lot more convenient to use a standardized set of terms.
I concur with Mr. Weiner. First of all, the University of Illinois team's official name is "UIUC Academic Buzzer Team." Secondly, it is not difficult to tell from the context of the thread, not to mention the forum in which the thread is located, that we are talking about the high school circuit of Illinois.

Hey, I know, let's fight about it! Anyway, quizbowl is actually the most appropriate term, since Scholastic Bowl is rigorously defined by the IHSA, and anything else isn't Scholastic Bowl. That, actually, is why Illinois teams can compete at nationals. None of the national tournaments play Scholastic Bowl; they're quizbowl tournaments. As a representative of the ABT, I do hereby relinquish all rights to the name in question: let it mean what it actually means, I say.

Also, I want to agree with more or less everyone that Illinois is a vast and untapped region, as far as quizbowl talent goes. However, one thing that I know to be true is that Scholastic Bowl aptitude or success is not a very reliable predictor of quizbowl success (that understood to mean quizbowl in a format somewhat more like what's used at the national tournaments, or in college.) In my experience, there are only two types of players whose success at Scholastic Bowl translates to quizbowl success: players with an extraordinary proclivity for study and memorization and willingness, time, guidance, and ability to learn the new material necessary to excel at quizbowl; or players whose success is a result of a large body of deep and encyclopedic knowledge of one or more areas of study that they have independent of Scholastic Bowl. I'll flatter myself to say I'm an example of the former, though I wasn't very good in high school (and am not very good in college, either;) whereas Kelly Tourdot with respect to art is a good example of the latter, as she was already probably one of the top five collegiate art players the moment she arrived on campus, so she had the immediate advantage of at least 2-3 questions per packet that she'll get 90% of the time, or more.

There are doubtlessly other important factors, and probably there are exceptional players whose results will defy these criteria (if tested.) However, it is important to realize that the skill sets required for success in and knowledge tested in quizbowl differ from those in Scholastic Bowl. There is also the issue that, even could one rank the best quizbowl teams in Illinois authoritatively, one would be necessarily unsure what this rank means nationally (as laszlow brings-up by implication) but, from the prospective of a coach attempting to make a nationals-worthy program, this is secondary, since the team can be made better via the right preparation and recruitment of the right type of players. Since there is such a large number of programs and dedicated coaches in Illinois, this should be our focus, not a hopeless attempt to make a comparison between Illinois teams and those from other states or regions in the past.

Mike Sorice

Tegan · Post by **Tegan** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 9:16 pm

ReinsteinD wrote:Congratulations to Culver Academy for knocking out New Trier yesterday at the Loyola Frosh/Soph.

One problem with the Illinois season is that it's exhausting. Without ever driving more than an hour, I can pretty much enter a tournament every weekend from mid-October through mid-March (and I pretty much do).

And you could REALLY do that many tournaments if the bloody CSL would do what practically every other League did and held triangulars or modified quads, instead of doing 11 one-on-ones (well......actually only ten since one team left)...I'm sure that makes the season even more tiring.

BTW......has the CSL (or more appropriately, has any school in the CSL) made another motion this year to permanently block Maine South from coming back?

Stained Diviner · Post by **Stained Diviner** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 8:28 am

Maine South is always welcome and has always been welcome. Honest. If you want to discuss this further, let's do it less publicly.

David Riley · Post by **David Riley** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 9:59 am

My $0.02 worth re Phil's comment about Illinois teams at nationals:

1) With regard to substituing a national tournament for an Illinois tournament, I think budget may come into play here. As you know, we have a choice of tournaments virtually every weekend--I can see how an administrator would be loathe to finance a trip to a national tournament when the tournament down the road would cost a lot less money. I have had some coaches tell me they barely have enough a budget for a $39 entry fee, so this seems feasible.

2) Then, as I've pointed out elsewhere on this board, a number of Illinois coaches do not like anything that doesn't resemble Illinois state format. They don't like NAQT format because it doesn't follow the IHSA distribution of subjects and they prefer quick-recall (as ipposed to pyramid-style) questions. Not that NAQT, PACE, or any of the national tournaments should change thier formats.

At any rate, this may explain why so few Illinois teams participate in national tournaments.

dtaylor4 · Post by **dtaylor4** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 10:43 am

David Riley wrote:My $0.02 worth re Phil's comment about Illinois teams at nationals:

1) With regard to substituing a national tournament for an Illinois tournament, I think budget may come into play here. As you know, we have a choice of tournaments virtually every weekend--I can see how an administrator would be loathe to finance a trip to a national tournament when the tournament down the road would cost a lot less money. I have had some coaches tell me they barely have enough a budget for a $39 entry fee, so this seems feasible.

2) Then, as I've pointed out elsewhere on this board, a number of Illinois coaches do not like anything that doesn't resemble Illinois state format. They don't like NAQT format because it doesn't follow the IHSA distribution of subjects and they prefer quick-recall (as ipposed to pyramid-style) questions. Not that NAQT, PACE, or any of the national tournaments should change thier formats.

At any rate, this may explain why so few Illinois teams participate in national tournaments.

To respond to the money question, to raise money to go to a national tournament, the team could do a fundraiser or use money won in the masonic state tournament. Secondly, those teams that do not like pyramid questions do not deserve to go to national tournaments and probably not good enough. Thirdly, back before the ban, I know for a fact that D Mac had gone to the tournament at Lake Forest consistently and placed as high as 8th one year. As to the comparison to Illinois teams to others around the country, no one can say for sure unless more teams start going to more out-of-state tournaments.

David Riley · Post by **David Riley** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 10:59 am

Hold on, you're making a couple of erroneous assumptions here.

First, teams may not be able to fundraise. For example, I can host tournaments all I want, but my school will not permit my team to have bake sales, car washes, etc. Several private schools have a similar policy.

Then, a preference for quick-recall questions does not gurantee a weak team. A perfect example is Streator: during the "Ben Ricca age", quick-recall questions were their specialty, and as I recall they did fairly well in the natonal tournaments that they attended. And keep in mind, not all national tournaments feature pyramid questions.

dtaylor4 · Post by **dtaylor4** » Thu Dec 16, 2004 11:20 am

David Riley wrote:Hold on, you're making a couple of erroneous assumptions here.

First, teams may not be able to fundraise. For example, I can host tournaments all I want, but my school will not permit my team to have bake sales, car washes, etc. Several private schools have a similar policy.

I'm sorry, I did not know about that. Around here, there is a private religious school that does a widely-publicized raffle every year that raises tens of thousands of dollars.

Admiral · Post by **Admiral** » Thu Dec 16, 2004 10:36 pm

Well, we're about to close the 2004 part of the 04-05 season.......any thoughts on the top of the charts now?

From what I've seen and heard (class AA): Fremd, Auburn, New Trier, and MacArthur are all in the mix.......Stevenson? Libertyville? Fenwick? Maine South? Wheaton North? who am I leaving off from the big schools?

HAHAHA · Post by **HAHAHA** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 7:11 pm

I'd agree with that list. But considering that Stevenson beat D-Mac at Richards, I'd be inclined to rank Stevenson higher. But as I didn't watch the match, and the Richards tournament is known for upsets, so I could be totally wrong.

One thing that I do hope is that we (Fremd) get to play more of these teams, as I have yet to play Auburn, Stevenson, New Trier, or D-Mac. So I'm looking forward to 2005 to give me a better indication of how our team truly compares to these other teams. Maybe at our tournament...

dtaylor4 · Post by **dtaylor4** » Sun Dec 19, 2004 3:41 am

HAHAHA wrote:I'd agree with that list. But considering that Stevenson beat D-Mac at Richards, I'd be inclined to rank Stevenson higher. But as I didn't watch the match, and the Richards tournament is known for upsets, so I could be totally wrong.

One thing that I do hope is that we (Fremd) get to play more of these teams, as I have yet to play Auburn, Stevenson, New Trier, or D-Mac. So I'm looking forward to 2005 to give me a better indication of how our team truly compares to these other teams. Maybe at our tournament...

First off, about the D-Mac/Stevenson match, it was tied after the first and second periods, then they beat us on the tossups and swept every bonus sent their way. Second, there are I think four big tournaments up north in January, and D-Mac will be at three, so hopefully we will have our long-awaited match, along with others.

Sebastian · Post by **Sebastian** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 4:37 pm

Does anyone know good sites to get study aids for Scholastic Bowl? Literature help would be much appreciated.

(DaGeneral, I know you're a Lit buff. Can you help a fellow Illinoisian out?)

Matt Weiner · Post by **Matt Weiner** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 5:15 pm

Sebastian wrote:Does anyone know good sites to get study aids for Scholastic Bowl? Literature help would be much appreciated.

http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/indeksi.htm

First Chairman · Post by **First Chairman** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 9:29 pm

I know I have yet to catch up to the entire thread here... but...

ReinsteinD wrote:Good teams in Illinois should not think that they have to win or place in a particular tournament to go to Nationals. There are plenty of at-large spaces for teams willing to apply. Nothing against Cheeseheads, but if NAQT can take five teams from Wisconsin then they should be willing to accept fifty from Illinois. (Nothing against NAQT either--we patronize them often and are happy with the product.)

It's hard to say this, but in my opinion, if participation in nationals is up to the dedication of the coach and the kids. There are a lot of good teams in Ohio that prior to me showing up in Cleveland, seldom attended nationals. (There was a small tradition, but not a consistent one.) As much as I tell people they should do what they can to go for nationals, the same problems will hamper anyone's effort to go. You'll always have to balance issues of funding, of scheduling around exams or summer jobs, or finding time to practice.

If you want to go to nationals, in general, you'll probably do whatever you can to prepare for it and get the funding to go. If you are that committed to gaining experience to compete in nationals, I'm sure most TD's for the regular invitationals (ie., not Panasonic where the rules are different) will take you. I've said this enough times: even if you have no shot to win, it's a good idea to get the exposure for the younger kids and the coaches to interact with those people who do prepare for nationals. The Steinhice rules apply, and in the long run, we want everyone to shoot for attending a national as a programmatic goal... because it only makes the experience of competing more fun and worthwhile.

So yeah, if you Illinois coaches think your state's qb programs are that much better than Wisconsin's, then 1) play against the Wisconsin teams a ton, and 2) play at nationals. I can suspect that in due time, the Wisconsin teams, no matter how small in number they are, will begin to improve to a point that it won't be so easy to stomp on them. I can only hope that will be the case in North Carolina... in a few years.

Sebastian · Post by **Sebastian** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 5:38 pm

Matt Weiner wrote:http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/indeksi.htm

Thanks for your help.

Tegan · Post by **Tegan** » Fri Dec 24, 2004 12:53 am

E.T. Chuck wrote:So yeah, if you Illinois coaches think your state's qb programs are that much better than Wisconsin's, then 1) play against the Wisconsin teams a ton, and 2) play at nationals. I can suspect that in due time, the Wisconsin teams, no matter how small in number they are, will begin to improve to a point that it won't be so easy to stomp on them. I can only hope that will be the case in North Carolina... in a few years.

I hope so as well. I took my team up to Conserve last year, and finished fourth (we beat the team that finished 3rd, but lost to the 5th place team).

What worries me is that the 2 clearly superior programs in Wisconsin (Conserve and Rufus King) are in a bad place now....Conserve lost its tremendous coach (Wisonconsin's loss is Indiana's gain)....I'm not sure they are still particiapting like they used to. Rufus King also lost its coach, and as I understand it, has disolved (I hope I'm wrong on that). There are no really big Wisconsin tournaments anymore, and even of there were, they tend not to advertise south of the border. We invite teams from Wisconsin, but Conserve and Rufus King were the only teams who ever came.

I fully agree that any state, given teams willing to work to improve can be as good as any other state. Sure, Illinois has plenty of lazy coaches, poor administrations who do nothing to help nurture programs, and on the flip side do everything to set up roadblocks, and kids that are apathetic (doing this to look good on the college apps), but I would say that Illinois has as many quality teams as any other state. More than most, fewer than some. Almost every time Illinois teams have played out of state teams (KMO, Panasonic, etc) they tend to do well (and that is true even when we are playing in an alternative format to our own). I would never say "Illinois is #1", but I think we're right there. I don't think we need to have extensive participation in nationals to prove that.

jewtemplar · Post by **jewtemplar** » Fri Dec 24, 2004 3:06 pm

Tegan wrote:I would never say "Illinois is #1", but I think we're right there. I don't think we need to have extensive participation in nationals to prove that.

What proves that? A large league circuit and decent showings at KMO and Panasonic? I can imagine no way to prove a state's quiz bowl merit other than nationals participation, but perhaps that's just me.
No offense to Illinois, mind you. I do think that a consistently powerful Panasonic all star team is a reasonable indicator, just not a foolproof one.

The Quizbowl Resource Center

Illinois 04-05

Northwestern???

Cheeseheads vs. Flatlanders

Calling Out Illinois Quiz Bowl!