New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

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New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by jonah »

The 2009 New Trier Varsity: ANTACID (A New Trier Academic Competition In December) will take place on December 19 on a set written by a group led by me and consisting mostly of recent high school graduates. We are shooting for a difficulty slightly above that of the usual Illinois high school tournament.

We hope to have a field of at least 32 teams (last year’s number) and will be glad to accommodate as many as are interested. Teams from out of state are strongly encouraged to attend: we typically attract a very strong field. This tournament is also available for mirroring; contact me for more information.

Registration/Contact. Contact David Reinstein <[email protected]> to register. Contact me <[email protected]> for anything else, such as to apply to moderate or otherwise work. Staff receive $40 and lunch.

Distribution. The distribution will be as follows:
  • 4/4 literature, including at least 1/1 each of United States, British, and world
  • 4/4 history, including at least 1/1 each of United States, European, and world
  • 4/4+1 question science, including at least 1/1 each of physics, chemistry, biology, and one question on noncomputational math
  • 2/2+1 question fine arts
  • 2/2 religion, mythology, philosophy
  • 1/1 social science
  • 1/1 current events, geography
  • 1/1 trash, maybe some interdisciplinary
Tournament Format. The format will be dictated by the field size. It will be announced here and by email to registered teams when it is decided. Lunch, consisting of Lou Malnati’s pizza and other delectable delights, will be served at an appropriate point. Some to-be-determined number of individual awards and team trophies will be given.

Rules. We will use ACF rules except that teams of five are permitted (per Illinois norms). We may also have powers.

Fees. $70 per team; teams traveling long distances should contact David Reinstein for a discount. Illinois teams are expected to bring functional buzzer systems able to accommodate five players on each of two sides unless otherwise arranged. Staff discounts are arranged by having your staffer apply to be a staffer as above; we can credit the $40 to your entry fee if you want.

edited to note that some previously uncertain rule decisions have been made
Last edited by jonah on Mon Dec 07, 2009 8:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by AKKOLADE »

Are questions previous iterations available anywhere online?
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by Mechanical Beasts »

This page either links to questions directly or says where they're available.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by jonah »

The questions from the missing year are here.

2008 is the only year that should be used to judge what this year's tournament will look like in terms of question quality. Notable differences from that is the elimination of computation, an effort to shorten questions (target length: 6-7 lines), and tighter difficulty control. I've also learned more about writing and editing since then and hope that will be reflected in the 2009 set.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by jonah »

Bumping this. For a good time, email David Reinstein <[email protected]> to register. For a good hosting time, email me to mirror.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by Stained Diviner »

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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by jonah »

Field (will be updated continuously):
Auburn x4
Barrington x2
Boylan Catholic
Carbondale x2
Carmel x2
Crete-Monee x2
Detroit Catholic Central
Fenton
Fenwick x2
Fremd x2
Geneva
Hoffman Estates x2
Latin
Leyden
Libertyville
Lisle x2
Loyola x3
Maine East
Maine South
Marian Central Catholic
McHenry
Naperville North
Niles West
Northmont (OH)
OPRF
Springfield
St. Ignatius
Stevenson x2
Wheaton Academy x2
Wheaton North
Wheaton-Warrenville South x2
Winnebago

(48)
Last edited by jonah on Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:50 pm, edited 26 times in total.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by jonah »

Hey guys, you should register for this.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by jonah »

Following this tournament will be Dan Donohue's VIOLATEDD, which is notably open to anyone (current or former players of any age, coaches, random hobos off the street, whatever), and which you should all play.

At this writing, we have 30 teams signed up for NTV itself. I would like to have more—lots more. Please register.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by the return of AHAN »

Put Barrington down for two teams. Nothing to stir interest in the next tournament better than to actually ask the kids when they've just played in one!
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by jonah »

Done. We are now at 32 teams. While in past years our field has been of that size, I have no intention of capping it at that number this year. Let's try to hit 40 or more! Please register, people.

I could use a few more good staffers. You get lunch and some money.

edit: or more!
Last edited by jonah on Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by David Riley »

Er...,.do you anticipate enough staffers for a field of 40 + ?
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by jonah »

David Riley wrote:Er...,.do you anticipate enough staffers for a field of 40 + ?
I think I'll be able to get what I need. If people reading this can help out, they should let me know, though.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by jdeliverer »

Count Latin in for one team - I've gotten confirmation from 4 of our 5 starters, so we should be at pretty much full strength. Should be a lot of fun!

Either Dr. Bardoe or I will submit an entry form later this week.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by jonah »

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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by jonah »

We're at 39 teams, and I'm pretty sure of a 40th. That's a lot, but 48 is more. I have a dream! And it involves 8 (or more) additional teams.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by Maxwell Sniffingwell »

That's quite a few staffers.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by jonah »

Presently I have more offers to staff than I need. It's pretty awesome.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by jonah »

We're pleased to welcome our second out-of-state team, Detroit Catholic Central. Perhaps this will encourage more out-of-state teams to register?
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by Brian Mellon »

I talked to our kids, and many would like to come. I'm waiting until Friday afternoon to get a head count. Would it still be ok to register one (or more likely two) teams at that point?

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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by jonah »

Yes. We will hold two spots for you through Saturday; please let me know as soon as you know.

We currently have 42 teams registered, plus two spots held for Carmel. Unless I hear otherwise from Reinstein, I think 48 teams is going to be the cap. Four more, anyone?
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by mlaird »

Yo, how is rebracketing being handled at this tournament? How many teams are going to be in contention after lunch? I'm trying to make my picks for my bookie.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by jonah »

When I have a final team count, I will post the format.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by David Riley »

mlaird wrote:Yo, how is rebracketing being handled at this tournament? How many teams are going to be in contention after lunch? I'm trying to make my picks for my bookie.

Now we know why you needed that substitute teaching job....
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by Stained Diviner »

The current plan is to have sixteen teams in contention in the afternoon, who would play four rounds of power matching and then extra rounds until every team had at least two losses for the day. If we have power matching, that would be all 5-0 and 4-1 teams plus a few 3-2 teams with high PPB. If we have round robins, choosing 16 gets a little trickier, but we hope it would include at least all 5-0 and 4-1 teams. The format is still being discussed and is dependent on the number of teams we end up with, so I would warn bookies not to take bets yet.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by jonah »

Note that teams who cannot win the tournament will still be playing the afternoon rounds, unless they have a note from their mother excusing them.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by Whiter Hydra »

Shcool wrote:The current plan is to have sixteen teams in contention in the afternoon, who would play four rounds of power matching and then extra rounds until every team had at least two losses for the day. If we have power matching, that would be all 5-0 and 4-1 teams plus a few 3-2 teams with high PPB. If we have round robins, choosing 16 gets a little trickier, but we hope it would include at least all 5-0 and 4-1 teams. The format is still being discussed and is dependent on the number of teams we end up with, so I would warn bookies not to take bets yet.
So it's basically double-elimination?
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by JackGlerum »

Just looked over the lit and art for this tournament and it was pretty solid. Certainly won't be flawless, but it'll be the best house-write in Illinois in a long time. Yall should be pumped to play it.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by Stained Diviner »

Earthquake wrote:So it's basically double-elimination?
It's not set in stone yet, but I like the philosophy that the team that goes the longest before taking its second loss is the champ, at least with one-day large tournaments. Teams with two losses will keep playing for other places, and teams that take two losses in the morning (first five rounds) but are in the top 16 will be treated as though they only took one morning loss, but that's the general idea.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by Brian Mellon »

Carmel rolls 10 deep. We will have 2 teams. I'll have the registation in ASAP.

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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by jonah »

Three spots left.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by jonah »

We currently have 45 teams. If we have 45 or 47 on the day of, we will form a chimera team to get to 46 or 48, respectively.

(never mind — format still under serious consideration)

Like I said, three more spots. Email me or Reinstein to register.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by Maxwell Sniffingwell »

When do you expect this tourney to finish?
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by jonah »

Reinstein should be able to address your question better than I can, Greg. We're doing 10 rounds plus finals and have a pretty solid moderating crew.

Because of the way we're probably going to handle the format (which I will post here about shortly when the details are figured out), registration is now closed to teams from new schools. Additional teams can be registered up to three more.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by Wackford Squeers »

I notice Carbondale is listed as having two teams, while I'm reasonably sure this is not the case. We're not even going to have all of our starters in attendance, and last I heard we're taking a teeny-tiny van, which would indicate we're bringing only one team. I'm e-mailing Frau Lorinskas about it, but I thought it should be pointed out.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by Charley Pride »

Chametz wrote:We're not even going to have all of our starters in attendance
WHY NOT?!
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by Boeing X-20, Please! »

Oliver Ellsworth wrote:
Chametz wrote:We're not even going to have all of our starters in attendance
WHY NOT?!
Are at least you and Jeremiah both going to be there?
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by jonah »

Chametz wrote:I notice Carbondale is listed as having two teams, while I'm reasonably sure this is not the case. We're not even going to have all of our starters in attendance, and last I heard we're taking a teeny-tiny van, which would indicate we're bringing only one team. I'm e-mailing Frau Lorinskas about it, but I thought it should be pointed out.
She emailed me Thursday saying she'd be bringing 9 players and would like to split them into two teams. If something has changed since then, she should email me or Reinstein.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by Wackford Squeers »

Oliver Ellsworth wrote:
Chametz wrote:We're not even going to have all of our starters in attendance
WHY NOT?!
I've asked the same question my self many times. People apparently have places to be. I believe we'll be fielding Srinivas, Allison, Ankai, and me. In addition we're brining 6 juniors, who I haven't seen yet at a tournament with quality questions. No Jeremiah, Mrinalini, or Sofia. But yeah, it turns out we are brining a B team, it was my mistake.
Last edited by Wackford Squeers on Tue Dec 15, 2009 1:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by Wackford Squeers »

ignore me
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by jonah »

Here's the tournament format:

The morning rounds will consist of two divisions. The 32 A teams/teams from schools that only sent one team will play five power-matched rounds in one division. At the same time, the 16 B and C teams will play a warm-up round that does not count toward their overall records, then four power-matched rounds, in the other division. After these five rounds is lunch in the cafeteria; delicious Lou Malnati’s pizza will be served. Tom Egan will administer said pizza to Jack Glerum by whatever means necessary.

For the afternoon, we will have eight brackets of 6. The top one will consist of the one 5–0 team and the five 4–1 teams from the A teams division, with their records carrying over. This bracket will play a round robin, then an ACF final if need be, plus matches as appropriate for 3rd and 5th place.

There will be two top consolation brackets, drawn from the following 12 teams: the 10 that were 3–2 in the A teams division, the 1 that was 4–0 (excluding the warmup match) in the B/C teams division, and the 1 team that was 3–1 in Division the B/C teams division with the highest points per bonus (PPB). Their morning records do not carry over. Those 12 teams will be divided into two brackets at the tournament directors’ discretion, with a goal of balance and avoiding rematches. Each bracket will play a round robin, and then the winners thereof will play a one-game consolation championship. If necessary, the following tiebreaking procedure will take place within each bracket:
  • If there is a two-way tie, a one-game playoff will occur to determine the bracket’s winner.
  • If there is a three-way circle of death, the two teams with lower PPB will play a half packet; the winner will face the team with the highest PPB to determine the bracket’s winner.
  • If there is a five-way circle of death, the two teams with the second- and third-highest PPB will play a half-packet; the winner will play the team with the highest PPB to determine the bracket’s winner in a half-packet.
The remaining consolation brackets will be constructed primarily by PPB, merging the remaining teams from the two morning divisions, such that teams play others similar to them. Exceptions to the PPB ranking may be made at the tournament directors’ discretion to avoid rematches. These teams’ morning records will not carry over. Every team is expected to stay for all afternoon rounds unless extenuating circumstances prevent it; if enough teams have such circumstances, chimera teams may be disbanded and a bracket dropped. Each bracket will play a round robin.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by jonah »

I need one more reader. You will be compensated with $40, pizza, and my gratitude. Email me if you can do this, please.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by David Riley »

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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by Stained Diviner »

I expect the tournament to end for most teams by 4:00. Teams involved in various tiebreakers will probably be going until 4:30 or 5:00. And I am now in possession of Carbondale A & B rosters. Because we have good moderators and are not bouncing back bonuses, this should go quickly, and there is a chance it will end before these times, but I can't make any promises.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by Edward Elric »

jonah wrote:I need one more reader. You will be compensated with $40, pizza, and my gratitude. Email me if you can do this, please.
Hey i can Read for You guys.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by Maxwell Sniffingwell »

jonah wrote:format stuff
Wait, so the B and C teams will never be eligible for the tourney win? And will, in fact, never even get to PLAY the best teams?

It looks to me like you've devised a tournament format in which half of the field is eliminated prior to the tourney start.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by JackGlerum »

jonah wrote:Tom Egan will administer said pizza to Jack Glerum by whatever means necessary.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWaLxFIVX1s

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And yeah, in an age when many B teams beat A teams, I'm not sure the proposed format makes sense. That said, I have no solution because I'm lazy.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by Whiter Hydra »

What about 8 brackets of 6, and the top teams plus four wild-card teams play in two parallel championship brackets of 6 (and consolation brackets of 6 for teams outside the top 12? It would take the same amount of rounds (though it could possibly make tiebreakers a bit of a mess), and all 48 teams would be in contention for the entire time.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by Mechanical Beasts »

Earthquake wrote:What about 8 brackets of 6, and the top teams plus four wild-card teams play in two parallel championship brackets of 6 (and consolation brackets of 6 for teams outside the top 12? It would take the same amount of rounds (though it could possibly make tiebreakers a bit of a mess), and all 48 teams would be in contention for the entire time.
But you could potentially be eliminated from the nth bracket by losing n times! Also: ILLINOIS.
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Re: New Trier Varsity (12/19/2009) at New Trier (Winnetka, IL)

Post by the return of AHAN »

cornfused wrote:
jonah wrote:format stuff
Wait, so the B and C teams will never be eligible for the tourney win? And will, in fact, never even get to PLAY the best teams?

It looks to me like you've devised a tournament format in which half of the field is eliminated prior to the tourney start.
According to IHSSBCA protocol, the A team is supposed to have the top 5 players. Is there a team coming to NTV with enough depth that their B squad is better than the 85% of the A team field?
Given the strength of the field, I can say that there's realisticaly no way Barrington's B team (all frosh/soph) can possibly finish high enough to qualify for the championship bracket if pitted against A teams (not that that'd stop us from coming, FWIW). But, I'm actually looking forward to seeing how they fare when playing other B teams, as those kids fared well against other, varsity B squads @ Kickoff, even those with upperclassmen. Ultimately, we know the elites are going to run our B team out of the room and don't need to get belted by a 500-point spread to know it, unless the questions are hosey/tricky/bad.

For my MS tourney, I've spun off B teams into their own bracket and own set of trophies for the past few years to a universally happy response. That said, I've ALSO had schools with multiple teams in the 'A' brackets, too.
Jeff Price
Barrington High School Coach (2021 & 2023 HSNCT Champions, 2023 PACE Champions, 2023 Illinois Masonic Bowl Class 3A State Champions)
Barrington Station Middle School Coach (2013 MSNCT Champions, 2013 & 2017 Illinois Class AA State Champions)
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