Illinois 04-05

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Illinois 04-05

Post by Admiral »

I was in a discussion with a few people over the coming season, and thought I would start thinking about the top teams in Illinois this year.

1. Wheaton North (they may not be as good as last year, but it will likely take a year for everyone to stop being afraid of them)

2. Rockford-Auburn (they don't seem to ever rebuild...just reload)

3. Lincolnshire-Stevenson (see Auburn...these top three may be very interchangeable)

4. New Trier (I have no idea how good/bad they really will be....they're never bad, so this is as good a place as any)

5. Morton (I saw these guys at a tournament, and they have real potential)

6. Decatur-MacArthur (Wonderboy + improved support = wins)

7. Fenwick (though they only seem to qualify for state every other year....this might be their off year)

8. Loyola (see New Trier...not sure where they were last year)

9. Hoffman Estates (see Rockford-Auburn)

10. Lincoln-Way East (or whoever the token southside of Chicago team is)

Others of note: Chicago-St. Ignatius, Palatine-Fremd, Lincoln, Park Ridge-Maine East, Wheaton South, Chicago-Marist, Normal West, Bloomington, Rockford-Guilford, Moline (the usual suspects)
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Re: Illinois 04-05

Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh »

Admiral wrote:I was in a discussion with a few people over the coming season, and thought I would start thinking about the top teams in Illinois this year.

1. Wheaton North (they may not be as good as last year, but it will likely take a year for everyone to stop being afraid of them)

2. Rockford-Auburn (they don't seem to ever rebuild...just reload)

3. Lincolnshire-Stevenson (see Auburn...these top three may be very interchangeable)

4. New Trier (I have no idea how good/bad they really will be....they're never bad, so this is as good a place as any)

5. Morton (I saw these guys at a tournament, and they have real potential)

6. Decatur-MacArthur (Wonderboy + improved support = wins)

7. Fenwick (though they only seem to qualify for state every other year....this might be their off year)

8. Loyola (see New Trier...not sure where they were last year)

9. Hoffman Estates (see Rockford-Auburn)

10. Lincoln-Way East (or whoever the token southside of Chicago team is)

Others of note: Chicago-St. Ignatius, Palatine-Fremd, Lincoln, Park Ridge-Maine East, Wheaton South, Chicago-Marist, Normal West, Bloomington, Rockford-Guilford, Moline (the usual suspects)
I see a real problem with this list. Of the 21 schools listed, how many are Class AA?

All of them.

Where's the Latin School of Chicago? They've won state multiple times the past few years, including last year, and are always a force to be reckoned with, including with the Class AA teams.

There are others, such as the Big Northern Conference powerhouses of Byron, Winnebago, and Stillman Valley, each of whom have a state championship recently. Bago and Byron have incredibly strong classes of '06, and Stillman's '05 is very good.

I'm leaving some out selectively. Give me an argument, because Class A has been forgotten for too long. Give them some respect, it's still quizbowl, and there are still good teams.

Anyway, if Wheaton North is ever to lose a state championship game, it will be this year. The 4 seniors are gone, they're rebuilding. If Wheaton North is going to be a true dynasty, they'll have to prove it now.

Rockford Auburn is losing Casarotto, an All State standout, among many other seniors. Their sophomore class consisted of 2 stars that played varsity already, so the reinforcements aren't on their way: they're already here. Their senior class this year is surprisingly small, just a few players. They're losing and not replenishing much. Training is in order if they're going to take advantage of WN's weak year.

If Sterling (unmentioned...wonder why? Is it because Jaya and Paul graduated? Hmmm...) wins even a regional, it's a true testament to their abilities. Jaya and Paul are leaving behind skid marks after not getting out of a sectional with Rockfords Auburn and Guilford.
Last edited by Irreligion in Bangladesh on Thu Nov 18, 2004 12:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Admiral »

1. I'm not an expert...merely displaying an opinion.

2. I don't get to see many Class A team throughout the year, and regretfully with the exception of Latin downstate, the few I do see tend to get battered pretty badly. That is not an indictment against Class A schools, it just means I am drawing from a small amount of experience. Latin won State last year, and while they have placed, you need to go back a quite a few years for their last state championship. Perhaps it is a not-so-bad thing that there has been no one Class A team that has grabbed the State Title and held on to it for several years in a row. I have seen the Latin School. In a good year, they are as good or better than almost any Class AA school. In a bad year, they are only as good as 90% of Class AA schools......actually with your talk of Class A schools, I am surprised you left off Carterville which has placed at State twice in the past three years......I am presuming you left Litchfield and Bunker Hill off because (like Sterling), their star players are leaving.

3. I was going to talk around to some friends who catch Class A schools a little more than I do to catch the prevailing winds, but Styxman has taken care of that for me.

4. I agree on your assessment of Sterling.....if they can win a Regional, it would be a testament to the strength of the program and fine coaching (both of which they have had for years). I did not include them on my list because they have just lost one very good player and one player of legend.....I think it is tough to cope with that.....Auburn, on the other hand, has seemed to be a far more balanced team. Yes, CC was a tremendous player, but everytime I saw the team play, there was no one standout player...I think that is their strength, and I think that is why they will remain sharp.....I still think that a Stevenson or a Wheaton North could beat them, but overall, I think Class AA will be somewhat weak this year. I think that last year (with Auburn, Stevenson, and Wheaton North as big exceptions), Class AA was already showing signs of weakness.
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Re: Illinois 04-05

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styxman wrote:...Give me an argument, because Class A has been forgotten for too long...
One argument, coming up. Actually, you make a good point but, from observation of the past three years, my own impression of the state tournament has been that, with the exception of Stillman Valley two years ago, the A champion would have been near or below the median in the AA bracket. Now, that's certainly nothing to sneeze at, but it does mean that, off hand, it doesn't seem unreasonable to me that no A team would be in the state top 10. Certainly, one shouldn't look past or forget class A or any given school therein, but, realistically, class AA appears consistently better at every level I've ever observed (and why not? It has all the advantages.) Also, smaller class sizes in class A schools should, ceteris paribus, lead to a greater degree of variability in class A programs' goodness from year to year, which makes forcasting their performance an uncertain proposition indeed.
Then again, this is all just conjecture, so take it for what it's worth. I, for one, am excited to see the season begin regardless of whether it bears out or tramples my predictions.

MaS

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Post by Admiral »

<<<my own impression of the state tournament has been that, with the exception of Stillman Valley two years ago, the A champion would have been near or below the median in the AA bracket>>>

If you are strictly refering to the State Championship bracket, I would agree (just based on scoring comparisons in similar matches)....but there have been some very good Class A teams.

--Stillman Valley (as you mentioned) was a right powerful team....might have legitimately finished second in Class AA that year.

--back when Jim Davis (moment of silence) was at Latin, there was one year they could have been the legit #1.

--Byron had a kid that darn near won the whole State Tournament single handedly....one man gangs rarely work at that level but I think he nailed 14 TU in the final match! They were a legit top team, irregardless of class.

I would never look past Class A schools.....they may not (typically) have the resources or the numbers to draw from, but as the saying goes "its the size of the heart that matters"...and the will to practice and refine your talent.


<<<Then again, this is all just conjecture, so take it for what it's worth. I, for one, am excited to see the season begin regardless of whether it bears out or tramples my predictions. >>>

October 2??? I'm not even out of bed for the school year yet!.....Though I offer props for the Steve Buschemi avatar.
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Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh »

If I were an expert, I wouldn't have left Carterville off. I left them off because I've never seen them play, and generally know nothing about them. Just like Litchfield and Bunker Hill. I wasn't able to go downstate to watch the tourney this year: I had to decide between watching our Boys Basketball the weekend before or other teams Scholastic Bowl teams the next weekend. When a referendum hinges on the outcome of the Bball tourney (Schobowl on the chopping block with a failure), I had more incentive to go to it instead.

Class A Big Northern is all I get to see regularly, because I wasn't on varsity last year, so it's Stillman this year, Bago and Byron the next two years, and unless there is some power in the middle schools right now, not much out of those 3 after '06. In fact, Stillman drops off at '06. Both Bago and Byron have problems with their '06 class: so much strength, it scares potential players away. Rockford Lutheran went from a Sat. tourney pushover in midseason to a stones throw from a Regional championship (scared the heck out of our varsity), all because they trained...we all know what training can do in good hands. Oregon is a mystery...they could place in the afternoon at one tournament and dropout 1-4 in the next. Same goes for Marengo.


Rockford Auburn will most likely remain sharp, but they could drop off at the beginning of the year. They could win state, but if they don't work at it, they could lose in sectionals. I doubt it, with their power juniors Kerr and Powers, but they could.

Sterling...anyone know where Jaya's going for college?

And whatever happened to IMSA? For an incredibly gifted private school that dominated the 1990's, where did they go? I notice that coaching changes affected most of the tail end of their run, but for a school like that, the coaching shouldn't mean as much as the sheer talent of the players. Can someone fill me in on where they've been the past few years? (And if it's just because they're in Wheaton North's Sectional, I completely understand.)

Anyway, with Wheaton North pulling a full reload, Auburn about a half, anyone could pull away with it...

Generally, Class A can't hold a buzzer to Class AA teams. Winnebago's fresh-soph had only 7 losses: Auburn, IMSA, Conserve of WI, Moline (Twice), Sterling, and Byron. 5 Class AA, 1 Wisconsin school, and a Byron team that we beat 6 other occasions. That's just fresh-soph, where a majority of the questions are Jeopardy-style trash. (That's another topic.)

When a Jim Davis or a Kelly Tourdot comes along to a Class A school, there's hope for beating the good AA teams. Otherwise, Class A doesn't stand a chance. This still doesn't mean that Class A teams aren't quality teams, it's just that most of the time, the coaching isn't there, the number of students you need to get a good base of students isn't there, and the support generally isn't there. It's still Scholastic Bowl, however. It's still worth playing the matches, which is why I'm hoping I can convince our coach to travel to U of I for the Early Bird tourney.

Admiral: You say you haven't seen an Auburn standout player? Watch a match this year...Tyler Kerr will blow you away. He led Auburn's A team in TU's off and on, sharing with CC, as a sophomore. Now that CC's gone, and it's pretty much Tyler and Colleen's team, you'll see some one-man fireworks out of him.

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Post by Admiral »

<<<Bowl teams the next weekend. When a referendum hinges on the outcome of the Bball tourney (Schobowl on the chopping block with a failure), I had more incentive to go to it instead. >>>


This can happen to Class A or AA, but I think it tends to hit the Class A schools more....hoops has a bad season (financially) so let's cut scho bo / chess / debate / anything involving use of the mind....goodness forbid the school look cultured or like it was accomplishing its #1 mandate. It stinks! Until there are as many scho bo players as hoopsters, and the parents have as much clout....that is the way things will be. I'm sorry you had to go through that.



<<<And whatever happened to IMSA?>>>

I 've heard a number of theories.....some mob bosses from Wheaton (which has a lot of mob ties....not) went to IMSA and told them to stop winning.....seriously, I'm not sure.....they have had a lot of coaches, but it never seemed to hurt them in the past. I'm sure the talent is there, but they may no longer be refining it. It is true that they have had to go through Wheaton North for the past three years.....if Wheaton North does one day weaken, IMSA may be back (I think George Lucas' next film is Star Wars: Episode III: Revenge of the IMSA)


<<<Winnebago's fresh-soph had only 7 losses: Auburn, IMSA, Conserve of WI, Moline (Twice), Sterling, and Byron>>>


If that is the case, then Winnebago will be a top team....Those are some good teams......I'm sure Winnebago will not sit on their laurels...they will get even better than that.



<<<Tyler Kerr will blow you away>>>

I'll keep an eye on him...and thanks for the Big Northern area scouting report. I will hae to try to keep an eye out for those teams as well.
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Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh »

Admiral wrote:<<<Bowl teams the next weekend. When a referendum hinges on the outcome of the Bball tourney (Schobowl on the chopping block with a failure), I had more incentive to go to it instead. >>>


This can happen to Class A or AA, but I think it tends to hit the Class A schools more....hoops has a bad season (financially) so let's cut scho bo / chess / debate / anything involving use of the mind....goodness forbid the school look cultured or like it was accomplishing its #1 mandate. It stinks! Until there are as many scho bo players as hoopsters, and the parents have as much clout....that is the way things will be. I'm sorry you had to go through that.
The referendum was going to cut EVERYTHING. Scholastic Bowl, Math Team, WYSE Team (no chess or debate here anyway...no interest), Band, Chorus (there goes the culture, no shock there), Middle School Sports (not a good thing, but it is reasonably expendable...can't cut all the teachers), High School Sports (wait, what the heck?!?!?!), EVERYTHING. Basketball, Football, everything. A whole bunch of people went through it, not just schobowl.

What's worse than that is, there were 4 or 5 referendums up to vote the same night. Ours was the only one that passed. So many people lined up to vote to keep money from our schools, end children's enrichment, just so they could save a couple hundred bucks...

About IMSA...Wheaton North is weakened. If any year, this year. Just have to keep saying that. Wheaton North shall be brought down.

Also, the year Stillman and Wheaton won state, Stillman and Wheaton played in the final of the Winnebago Tournament. Stillman won, I do believe, in the greatest ending I've ever seen. 4 point difference and a disputed final bonus. I'm just sad I was moderating the 3rd place game. Stillman and Wheaton were evenly matched, which is saying something, because there were NO AA teams evenly matched with Wheaton.

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Post by Admiral »

I'm just sad I was moderating the 3rd place game. Stillman and Wheaton were evenly matched, which is saying something, because there were NO AA teams evenly matched with Wheaton.
That would have been a great match to see......Wheaton North was tougher than tough....but really had not run away with things yet......there were other teams who could beat them (unlike last year wher they went 95-1...Loyola beat them at Richards, but that was it.....Stevenson was very good, but really was no threat at the State Final).....Stillman was very tough that year...definitely one of the five all-time best Class A schools (up there with one or two of the Wiinebago and Latin teams...and maybe that one Byron team).

About IMSA...Wheaton North is weakened. If any year, this year. Just have to keep saying that. Wheaton North shall be brought down.
I wuoldn't want to see that yet. IMSA ruled for a long time....and frankly there was more than just rumor that some kids were initially contacted to attend IMSA because of their scholastic bowl skills (which to me is too close to "recruiting"). I have seen Wheaton North on many occasions, and aside from being top notch players, they seem to be a pretty nice group of people.......they will come to filet you, but they will not make you feel bad about it when its over. I've seen too many schools that were pretty good (win 60-70% of the time) and had no class whatsoever, from the coach down. Wheaton North, in my opinion, has always acted with class.

The other thing with IMSA is that their run of luck seemed to end when Yogesh Raut graduated.....he was top of the line. No doubt they had great players before him, but perhaps they have been unable to get players of his caliber afterwards....
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Post by kevinatcausa »

IMSA is a public school, not a private one.

I for one was never "recruited" for my scholastic bowl skills (or my math skills, for that matter), nor have I ever heard of that happening to anyone. On the other hand, it makes sense that IMSA attracts many of the same people who happen to be good at Scholastic Bowl.

I wish I knew what happened to the IMSA team as well. I think it may have just fallen victim to apathy on the part of both the students and the coaches (no matter what your knowledge, if you don't get organized and start practicing, you're going to lose to a more experienced team).

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Post by Admiral »

IMSA is a public school, not a private one.

Yes it is......but........yes it is.

I for one was never "recruited" for my scholastic bowl skills (or my math skills, for that matter), nor have I ever heard of that happening to anyone.

I did not mean to imply that the whole team was recruited....nor to imply that IMSA was violating any state rules. I know of two students (years ago) who received letters asking them to apply, and the letter mentioned their skill in scholastic bowl as being a skill that they could develop. I only meant what I said...in those two cases, there was an appearance of recruiting.....nothing more. As you said, IMSA naturally attracts some of the very best talent in Illinois....and a consequence of that talent is that the potential pool of excellent scholastic bowl players is staggering. [/code]
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Post by ktour84 »

Styxman I felt bad for everyone who participated in extraciriculars at Winnebago and that is was so depressing to know that the only reason the refereredum passed was because the boys' basketball team happened to be good that. I'm originally from Stillman and I played on the team that beat Wheaton by 4 points. In my experience and in that match specifically, they were not very good sports. They brought a rule book along and when an answer didn't go their way, the protested that it was right according to the rule book. They managed to delay the match 10 minutes. In the semis, when they played Rockford Guildford, they managed to delay that match a half hour over a rule dispute. Wheaton missed the final tossup and we were leading by 4 points before that. After they missed, one of my teammated rang in with a bs answer. It felt so good beating them that way.

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Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh »

I scored that Guilford/Wheaton match with the disputed answer! It was so interesting, hearing just how upset they were that that answer wasn't correct. I'm pretty sure it had something to do with Ottoman rulers, and they were not even close, but they had a rule book, a history book, an atlas, and another book out defending that answer. It took forever to get that match going again, and Guilford's coach (who has generally come off to me as a fair coach, a good coach, except when his team was done over in that blithering manner) had one thing to say to the Wheaton coach: "I'm glad that answer didn't come into play," before walking out of the room. I don't think he shook the coaches hand.

Also, I'm thinking about that game, isn't Wheaton North the team that goes outside the room during halftime? I know that I saw it happen at least once at that tourney, and it was either Wheaton or Guilford. I've played/scored Guilford many times, so I'm thinking it's WN. That always came off as paranoid and pretentious to me.

By the way, you're Kelly Tourdot, right? The one game I played against you, you absolutely blew us out of the water (just like the ones I didn't play in). I was a freshman that year, so I didn't play varsity except for the masonic regional tournament, when we didn't get the full varsity team to go because of a play practice. You guys just picked us apart that year, time after time. It's good to see that Wheaton North isn't invincible, especially to a Class A team. They'll have to remember that this year, if they (gasp!) don't win state for a change.

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Post by Admiral »

ktour84 wrote:Styxman They brought a rule book along and when an answer didn't go their way, the protested that it was right according to the rule book. They managed to delay the match 10 minutes. In the semis, when they played Rockford Guildford, they managed to delay that match a half hour over a rule dispute.

I can't say I saw this match, but I will say a few things on it, based on your recollection here.

1. Every coach should have the rule book with them at a match. They should know when to use it, and how to use it. I have seen far too many homer moderators in my time, and far more who simply were ignorant of the rules. You've got to be able to defend your team in those situations (though I do not know that this was one of them......from your recollection it doesn't seem so).

2. It sounds like this moderator didn't know the rules......disputes have a maximum time limit of three minutes...if any coach was dragging out a dispute for ten minutes or a half an hour, then the moderator was ignorant of the rules....they should have stopped the protest and rendered summary judgement on the spot (and if it had been me, I would have upheld my original decision if new information hadn't been brought to light)......Had the Stillman Valley coach had their rule book handy, this would have been a time to show it to the moderator and force a decision. This brings up the other reason to have the rule book handy, and to know its contents.....if another coach tries to pull anything, you can back it up with the rules.

3. A good tournament host should put their prime moderator in a room wher you are going to see a good match (and SV v. WN in that year was as good a match as any in the past several years). If that was the best moderator, it doesn't say much for the quality of moderating there. Many a time I've been pulled from a particular room to allow a better moderator to take over, or I have been assigned a room because I the host hought I was the best moderator available....especially for close matches or matches involving tempermental coaches and players. This happens in high school sports all of the time, and I wish it would happen more often in scholastic bowl.

3. More and more high school players in Illinois are going into College Bowl (such as yourself), and I for one am thrilled to see that they are becoming very successful (and profs to U of I for winning the undergrad National Championship!).....some may eventually return to coach....but even if that is not the case, I would hope that those players strongly consider getting into officiating. I think that this will raise the bar on the standards of moderating quite a bit.....right now, from what I can tell.....very few moderators have ever played, and simply don't keep up on rules (and there have been a ton of changes in the last five years. Last year I was moderating a match with an old time coach who got very upset when another coach asked to protest an answer. She had never heard of the rule change because she never bothered to read the rules updates.
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Post by Gordon Gekko »

Admiral wrote:
1. Every coach should have the rule book with them at a match. They should know when to use it, and how to use it. I have seen far too many homer moderators in my time, and far more who simply were ignorant of the rules. You've got to be able to defend your team in those situations (though I do not know that this was one of them......from your recollection it doesn't seem so).
As a former player and now moderator and part time coach, I was wondering if anyone knows where I can get the most recent copy of the IHSA rule book. I have a very very old one and think I am up on most of the changes, but wouldn't want to head into the season without the most recent version, which I can't seem to find on the IHSA site. Thanks!

Reading the previous posts I was curious as to what constituted a dynasty in Illinois...I would think 4 straight state finals with three wins would pretty much put Wheaton North in a dynasty class. Although I do think they may be vulnerable this year as well, they have shown a remarkable ability to stay at the top. I do think anyone in that top 10 could challenge this year and it should be a lot of fun to watch!

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Post by Admiral »

I was wondering if anyone knows where I can get the most recent copy of the IHSA rule book.
The guy to eventually contact is Ron McGraw at the IHSA.....I'm not sure you can download it from the site, but in any event the new book is not ready yet.....it usually isn't ready until December or later (which I never understood).

Reading the previous posts I was curious as to what constituted a dynasty in Illinois
I suppose that is a matter of opinion......but here are some thoughts

IMSA: 1989-94 1st (three times), 2nd, 4th
IMSA: 1996-2001 1st (four times)
Byron: 1997-2000 1st, 2nd, 4th
Carbondale: 1994, 96-97 4th (twice), 2nd
Carterville: 2001, 02, 04 2nd (twice)
MacArthur: 1991-86, 98-99 2nd (twice), 3rd (twice)
St. Teresa (Decatur): 1997-2000 1st, 2nd
Stevenson: 2000-01, 03-04 1st, 2nd, 3rd
U-High (Normal): 1999-2000, 02-03 1st, 2nd, 3rd
Auburn: 2002-04 2nd, 3rd, 4th
Quincy: 1987-89, 91, 93-97, 2000 1st (three times), 3rd (twice), 4th
Streator: 1998-2000 3rd, 4th (twice)
Wheaton North: 1999-2004 1st (three times), 2nd


But the undisputed dynasty of dynasties:

Latin: 1992-2004 1st (4 times), 2nd (twice), 3rd (three times), 4th
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Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh »

Here's another thought.

Winnebago, 1989-96: 6 State Qualifying teams, 1 3rd, 2 1sts. Also, a National Championship team in 1995 and an 8th place National team in '96.

Without a doubt, though, Latin is the definition of consistent Scholastic Bowl success.

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Post by Admiral »

:oops:
After being knocked around for ignoring Class A teams, I feel like an idiot. I actually did have Winnebago on my list (because I really do think they were a legit dynasty), but left them off when I typed them in.
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Post by Gordon Gekko »

I am going to throw one more in here just for good measure.....

Sullivan 88-93 only a 4th place finish at state in 1993, but a second in the nation at Texaco, back when it was all one big tournament, and 350 wins in that span...

I will say that Latin just seems to go under the radar for some reason, I knew they were good but I didn't realize they had all that success until I looked it up again.

Where did Winnebago win their national title in 1995? I just don't remember hearing about this one and I would have thought word would have spread more when a team from the state did well at nationals.

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Post by fuzzmaster »

I'm originally from Stillman and I played on the team that beat Wheaton by 4 points. In my experience and in that match specifically, they were not very good sports. They brought a rule book along and when an answer didn't go their way, the protested that it was right according to the rule book. They managed to delay the match 10 minutes.
Ohhhh man, that was a great match. Actually, I didn't see it because I think we (Sterling) were playing for third in a different room. But the moderator was our own Timmy T, who, in my opinion, is the best damn moderator in the state. Honestly, the guy painstakingly goes through every question and checks them with reference books. And he's not afraid to lay the smack down on a whiny coach.

In response to the things being said about Sterling:

Regional title to prove anything? At this point I'm hoping those kids don't completely blow it at Conference (Sterling hasn't lost a game at the conference meet since 2001). The kids coming in (remember, only one returning varsity player) didn't make a single afternoon round all of 03-04.

There's definitely some great potential in the new freshmen-- Paul's little brother Tom, Eric Frederick's (yeah, way back to 1997) younger sister, and another girl who went to Catholic school up 'til now. But they'll need time to gel with each other and gain confidence.

The factor that I think is essential to a successful hs team is experience, and the more of it the better. Sterling has no elementary or junior high teams in the public school, but the St. Mary's junior high has a great program (they went to state this year, e.g.). So we get these random freshmen who have no idea what schol bowl is...and still don't know by the end of the year. The only good players I've ever known have had practice by the time they get to high school. So the three freshmen I mentioned have a definite advantage over Sterling's f/s teams of the last few years, and I don't think they'll let that go to waste. With some practice, I think they can help reignite a strong Sterling team (in a year or two).

I'm at the University of Michigan, btw.
Last edited by fuzzmaster on Sun Sep 05, 2004 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by leprechauns! »

I'm not sure what Lincoln-Way East is going to do this year... though as far as I know they will remain the dominant south side presence, since Bradley will be weakened. That said, I'm hoping that they end up at state.

Garrett was my right hand man last year, and no doubt he will run the show this year. That kid really surprises me with some of the stuff he comes up with. Some other people will probably be seeing a lot more face time, since we lost a good deal of seniors, but there are plenty of new ones to replace them. I know we had a few kids that didn't see much time for seniority reasons that might end up surprising a few people.

Cohen isn't coaching this year, however, so I'm not sure how the new coach will affect the team. Look for Garrett at the solo though, if they attend. He took a few categories last year as a junior, and ended up losing a tiebreaker to Mr. Decatur Macarthur (due to a mispronounced Thucydides). But garrett will turn a few heads this year, for sure.
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Post by Admiral »

fuzzmaster wrote:
The only good players I've ever known have had practice by the time they get to high school. I didn't play on a team, but I practiced with the hs varsity team twice a week my entire eighth grade year. So the three freshmen I mentioned have a definite advantage over Sterling's f/s teams of the last few years, and I don't think they'll let that go to waste. With some practice, I think they can help reignite a strong Sterling team (in a year or two).

From the IHSA Constitution and By laws:

"JUNIOR HIGH PLAYERS ON HIGH SCHOOL TEAMS
Q. May students who are not yet in high school practice or participate on high school teams?
A. No."


Fuzzmaster,

I strongly urge you to avoid admitting in public that your coach violated the IHSA by-laws to avoid any potential investigation being launched against the coach and team. While I personally don't think it is the world's biggest deal, anyone out there who holds any kind of a grudge could have a field day with this. In the future, make sure you check the rules before posting this publicly. The IHSA has invoked some pretty nasty penalties on teams that have broken their rules in the past, and I wouldn't want to see anyone get hurt needlessly.

Just some friendly advice!
"The first rule of quiz bowl is that you do not talk about quiz bowl.....Second Rule...last names only!"

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Post by fuzzmaster »

Thanks for the tip, Ad. Do you know when that rule was enacted?

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Post by Admiral »

Do you know when that rule was enacted?
I can't say for sure, but I seem to think it has been around for some time.....I could be wrong. It might be very recent. The document wasn't dated, and all I have is the most recent.
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Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh »

Gordon Gekko wrote:Where did Winnebago win their national title in 1995? I just don't remember hearing about this one and I would have thought word would have spread more when a team from the state did well at nationals.
Scholastic Showdown in St. Louis, 1995, by The Griffin Experience...not around anymore, I don't think.

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Post by HAHAHA »

BUMP

After about a month of tournaments, what do you guys feel the current rankings are?

I've heard that unofficially, the rankings are:

1. Auburn
2. Stevenson
3. Fremd
4. New Trier

the rest I dont know.

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Post by Sebastian »

I heard that Stevenson didn't show well at the New Trier individual tournament. Both Fremd and New Trier had two in the final round, so that should count for something. Buffalo Grove, from what I hear, had one kid in the finals and another taking the desperation shot. Has anyone heard anything about them? They could be a sleeper.
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Post by G_Unit »

Just wondering, but has anyone in the state heard any buzz about any teams in Southern Illinois? By southern, of course, I mean below Decatur. We've had a smattering of good teams before (someone mentioned the Carbondale teams of old, and the recent rise of Carterville is fun to watch in the small schools division), but are there any teams that have a decent chance at contending in either class? I used to play in the deep south, and I remember hating all northern Illinois schools with a passion, and then when I got to college I realized that it didn't matter anymore, but I still would like to see a southern underdog make a run at the title.

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Post by Tegan »

HAHAHA wrote:BUMP

After about a month of tournaments, what do you guys feel the current rankings are?

I've heard that unofficially, the rankings are:

1. Auburn
2. Stevenson
3. Fremd
4. New Trier

the rest I dont know.

My opinion would be that these four are running at the head of the pack (at least in Class AA)....the exact ranking might be open for debate....New Trier won the Loyola Ultima, BUT, Auburn was supposedly shorthanded. Fremd has shown some wicked awesome potential this year....might be their best team in years (and that is saying something). Stevenson is Stevenson, and they seem to be at least as good as last year when they were state runners-up. It is sad that Fremd and Stevenson will likely have to play each other in Sectionals...so that only one makes it down state (My thoughts are that these four really deserve to make the trip...at least for now).

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Post by Tegan »

Sebastian wrote:I heard that Stevenson didn't show well at the New Trier individual tournament. Both Fremd and New Trier had two in the final round, so that should count for something. Buffalo Grove, from what I hear, had one kid in the finals and another taking the desperation shot. Has anyone heard anything about them? They could be a sleeper.
New Trier had one player in the finals.....Cliff Chang. the only undefeated player, but finished second. Fremd had two, both finishing in the top five.

Buffalo Grove is among the more underrated teams in Illinois, because they are always playing in the shadow of Fremd (due west), Stevenson and Libertyville (due north). They never seem to get their props, but they should! If Buffalo Grove were in almost any other Sectional, they would likely be making more routine trips down state. I never like it when my team draws BG in a tournament....

As for Stevenson, I was as surprised as anyone. Some of their best players were there, but no one qualified for the finals. I would not take this as a sign of being overrated. Stevenson has been and continues to be the real deal! I would chalk this up to there being an inordinate number of very close matches with very tough questions this year. I had one player who lost three times by a grand total of four points, and each of his losses was to a finalist (one was in overtime). I think that, at least as far as the Solo is concerned, any really good player could have won just about any match that day. A few of the greats won, a few didn't, and a few on the cusp of greatness had good days and advanced.

Wheaton North was in the same boat.....a few of their players won subject area awards, but no one made the finals. They are still a great team, I just think on that day......it wasn't in the cards.

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Post by Tegan »

G_Unit wrote:Just wondering, but has anyone in the state heard any buzz about any teams in Southern Illinois? By southern, of course, I mean below Decatur. We've had a smattering of good teams before (someone mentioned the Carbondale teams of old, and the recent rise of Carterville is fun to watch in the small schools division), but are there any teams that have a decent chance at contending in either class? I used to play in the deep south, and I remember hating all northern Illinois schools with a passion, and then when I got to college I realized that it didn't matter anymore, but I still would like to see a southern underdog make a run at the title.
What I am going to write may be unpopular, but I personally believe it to be the truth.....which is to say that it is not a fact, just an opinion.

Among my jobs, I coordiante the Octangular tournaments throughout Illinois. Last year was our first year, and I sent out surveys to get coaches' reactions to the tournaments and questions.

Invariably, the Southern Illinois coaches (and I don't mean to overgeneralize...this is just an overall impression) felt the questions were too hard. One coach even wrote back saying that there were too many "trivial" questions, and that there needs to be more questions on vocational ed. There were also multiple complaints about the questions being "too long". The questions followed IHSA distribution, and I have to say that I disagree with the questions being too trivial.

I went to the octangular at (Oak Park) Fenwick H.S. I volunteered to moderate, and it was like watching a herd of tiger in a flock of antelope. They just wiped the floor with these same questions. I actually moderated a match where EVERY toss-up was answered. In ten years, I had never seen that before.

Having been to some "out of Chicago" tournaments, the questions tend to be what I would call "buzzer beaters".

I think that there is a philosophical gulf in how to approach scholastic bowl (again, I don't mean to overgeneralize). More downstate coaches want quick, short questions that don't allow for much thinking. The northen coaches (not all, but more than downstate), prefer the NAQT style "pyramid" questions that favor the thinker. When the IHSA questions became more pyramid in style about five years ago. The northern teams adapted their tournaments to favor those questions, but it seems that Southern Illinois is resistant to that change. Part of this resulted in the Southern Illinois sponsored change in IHSA legislation which barred Illinois teams from participating in tournaments out of season. That ban has since been modified to allow for limited out of season work, but it angered a few coaches up in the north.

My guess would be that if more Southern schools attended more tournaments with more "pyramid" style questions, we would see more Southern Illinois teams doing well again. Interestingly, I think Carterville does attand a few tournaments like that, and as a result does quite well at the State Finals.

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Post by G_Unit »

Tegan wrote:What I am going to write may be unpopular, but I personally believe it to be the truth.....which is to say that it is not a fact, just an opinion.
Tegan wrote:More downstate coaches want quick, short questions that don't allow for much thinking.
Actually, I agree completely, now that I'm far enough removed to be more objective. In my original post, I mentioned that we hated the northern schools with a passion, which, at the time, we attributed to better funding upstate, coming from a larger tax base (the old bigger towns = better schools argument). In reality, we simply weren't participating at the same level of a Stevenson or New Trier. Our questions were easier, our matches were more laid back, and our competitions rarely went outside our region.

My team managed to win IHSA Sectionals 3 years in a row, only to get stomped in the IHSA State Tournament. Two years, we got kicked out with a first round loss, then when they changed the format to pool play, we went 1-2.

Also, the remark about coaches complaining about questions that were too hard is endemic to the system down here as a whole. When my sister was in eighth grade, it was customary to write a small (3-5 page) research paper for our science class. Truly not a difficult assignment. The parents in the community, however, called the school to complain and as a result got the assignment yanked. So rather than challenge their children and allow for the possibility of failure, our school decided to take the easy road out. It might be misguided, but I always imagined the northern schools not doing this, and that was one of the reasons I disliked them (I always wanted a better challenge).

If I still had any influence with the southern coaches, I'd kick them in the ass and tell them to start competing, and stop letting northern schools run over them because it's easier.

That's all for this rant.

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Post by HAHAHA »

Tegan wrote: My opinion would be that these four are running at the head of the pack (at least in Class AA)....the exact ranking might be open for debate....New Trier won the Loyola Ultima, BUT, Auburn was supposedly shorthanded. Fremd has shown some wicked awesome potential this year....might be their best team in years (and that is saying something).
Fremd also was playing shorthanded, without their captain and another starting 5 member.

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Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh »

Lincoln Way East (there's a dash there somewhere) crushed Auburn A first afternoon round of a tournament a couple weeks ago. Their seeding was due to their captain taking the ACT in the morning and showing up for the afternoon. LWE should be in that group. Not sure where, having seen no tournaments yet (apart from the Scobol Solo), but they're up there.

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Post by Tegan »

I only got to see Fremd play once when I moderated at Ultima....they did not win that match, but impressed me. If Fremd was also short handed, then they undisputedly deserve to be in the elite grouping right now.

As for Lincoln-Way East, if they beat Auburn A then that makes them pretty for real in my book.....a couple of their players had good showings at the Scholbo Solo.....

.....Lincoln-Way has almost always had great teams....they have had the worst run of luck downstate.....I remember the year they finally ended up in a tie to win their pool....only to lose the three-way tie breaker.

I moderated many a sectional down in New Lenox and later in Frankfort.

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Post by dtaylor4 »

G_Unit wrote:
Tegan wrote:What I am going to write may be unpopular, but I personally believe it to be the truth.....which is to say that it is not a fact, just an opinion.
Tegan wrote:More downstate coaches want quick, short questions that don't allow for much thinking.
Actually, I agree completely, now that I'm far enough removed to be more objective. In my original post, I mentioned that we hated the northern schools with a passion, which, at the time, we attributed to better funding upstate, coming from a larger tax base (the old bigger towns = better schools argument). In reality, we simply weren't participating at the same level of a Stevenson or New Trier. Our questions were easier, our matches were more laid back, and our competitions rarely went outside our region.

My team managed to win IHSA Sectionals 3 years in a row, only to get stomped in the IHSA State Tournament. Two years, we got kicked out with a first round loss, then when they changed the format to pool play, we went 1-2.

Also, the remark about coaches complaining about questions that were too hard is endemic to the system down here as a whole. When my sister was in eighth grade, it was customary to write a small (3-5 page) research paper for our science class. Truly not a difficult assignment. The parents in the community, however, called the school to complain and as a result got the assignment yanked. So rather than challenge their children and allow for the possibility of failure, our school decided to take the easy road out. It might be misguided, but I always imagined the northern schools not doing this, and that was one of the reasons I disliked them (I always wanted a better challenge).

If I still had any influence with the southern coaches, I'd kick them in the ass and tell them to start competing, and stop letting northern schools run over them because it's easier.

That's all for this rant.
In early october and november, my team competes against these southern schools on a regular basis. The reason that the southern schools want more voc ed is because it comes up a lot in middle school and it is something they know. the teams that support more voc ed rarely get any lit though. plus, as G_Unit said, they don't go anywhere because there are few tournaments that have the kinds of questions these teams want. There is a tournament every year in Charleston in December that always has a "holiday" category every round. these teams want frivolous questions that are buzzer beaters. as g_unit said, these teams need to buckle down and actually study to improve themselves, not complain to get the questions dumbed down.

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Post by dtaylor4 »

HAHAHA wrote:
Tegan wrote: My opinion would be that these four are running at the head of the pack (at least in Class AA)....the exact ranking might be open for debate....New Trier won the Loyola Ultima, BUT, Auburn was supposedly shorthanded. Fremd has shown some wicked awesome potential this year....might be their best team in years (and that is saying something).
Fremd also was playing shorthanded, without their captain and another starting 5 member.
How New Trier beat all those other teams at Ultima is beyond me. In the first round, it was D Mac v NT v Fremd and D Mac smoked em. D Mac missed out on 4th by i think 20-30 points. Fremd took 4th. At Solo, Fremd had two in the finals, New trier had the morning champ, auburn didn't even go, and i was there. someone from maine south, not bg, won the desperation shot. I can't wait until december 4th rolls around.

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Post by Tegan »

I didn't get to see the Dmac-NT-Fremd match, but I heard it was a doozy! It would be incorrect to list the best in the State of Illinois and not list MacArthur. They are a defending Sectional Champion and State Tournament Qualifier. That in and of itself would not qualify it for "elite" status, but the fact that the lineup is essentially intact from last year, and there are indications of improvement make it a team to keep a close eye on.

Not to mention.......one of the best, if not the best coach in the state of Illinois. Period, end of sentence.

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Post by potato0328 »

I agree that Lincoln-Way East is a good team (beating Auburn is impressive), but I have to point out that LWE met up with Fremd (where I'm from) in the finals of that same tournament. The results... were not pretty. I think it was about a 150 point victory for Fremd. But I guess it'll take a head-to-head between these top 4 to really see how they match up.
directly from Fremd High School...

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Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh »

I like how we have a Fremd player mentioning how LWE got creamed by a certain top 4 school and a MacArthur player mentioning how New Trier and Fremd got creamed by a certain school. Makes for some nonbiased viewpoints :)

All I have to say on the subject is that Wheaton North has not been mentioned as a top tier team. They will become either the 2004 Atlanta Braves or the 2002-2004 Yankees. Can they win when they're not supposed to, or will they fizzle now that Paul et al. are gone?

Here's a toast to a new champion in Class AA, hopefully one who loses to multiple Class A teams over the year.

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Post by potato0328 »

haha. yes, i'm from fremd, but i'm just relating the facts. we also played wheaton north in that tournament. they were pretty solid, but not spectacular like last year. we won by about 60-70 if i remember correctly. and i don't mean to trash talk guys. hopefully this will all be settled at the buzzers, lol.
directly from Fremd High School...

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Post by dtaylor4 »

potato0328 wrote:haha. yes, i'm from fremd, but i'm just relating the facts. we also played wheaton north in that tournament. they were pretty solid, but not spectacular like last year. we won by about 60-70 if i remember correctly. and i don't mean to trash talk guys. hopefully this will all be settled at the buzzers, lol.
wheaton north has devon and now chris on math and that's about it. d mac played moline and wn at the same time and we won by about 120.

and Tegan is absolutely right about our coach.

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Too early to tell...

Post by morpheus »

Hmm. This forum seems to have become a place where players from their respective teams come to make the case for why their team deserves to be given "elite" status. Well, I guess it's my turn. I am on the Fremd scholastic bowl team, so I do have to mention that Fremd did win the LWE tournament two weeks ago, and also did pretty well at the Loyola Ultima and the New Trier individuals. Therefore by the standards of the official rankers (or whatever you call the people who rank teams), I believe Fremd deserves to be ranked as one of the best teams in the state.

As for the other top teams, I definitely think Auburn is the team to beat. I have horrible memories of losing to them two years ago at the Wheaton North Frosh-Soph tournament on the last question. And I'm pretty sure Auburn has almost the same lineup that beat us two years ago on varsity now. As for the other teams like New Trier, Stevenson, and "D Mac," I really can't say that I know where they should be ranked, only that they are all good teams. And I still think Wheaton North is a team to be respected, after all they do have the human calculator, Devin. And to my knowledge, they stuck close to Fremd before the last few questions (I was taking the SAT IIs that day).

So, egos may have been bruised by the rankings, and maybe they are indeed incorrect, but I'm going to say that the only real indicator of an elite team is whether it can consistently win head-to-head matchups with other elite teams. And at this point, these matchups haven't occured. So these rivalries are going to have to wait until the next big tournament, or maybe even the sectional/state series.

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Post by Admiral »

I would never put much weight in those rankings that get published....while not every selector does so, a lot of them just vote for local teams....or whatever team recently beat them (because they would HAVE to be pretty good to beat us).

There are tons of underrated teams that never get a lot of play:

Fenwick has a pair of State Trophies from the past three years, and I heard that they got out and out cheated in the sectionals in that middle year (the team that beat them placed)......that would make three trophies in three years.....admittadly all 4ths, but that's more trophies than some other teams.

Morton doesn't get respect because they are "outside the I-294 beltway"....throw in Carterville as another downstate team (Class A) that deserves some credit.

Libertyville has been downstate, but seems to always be one step behind Stevenson (at least they have made it downstate)...they are very good.

Wheaton North at their weakest is still at least a top 10 team...if not higher.

Though they have never been downstate, Marist can be very tough to beat at times....might even be one of the best schools to not go downstate.

Never count out a Winnebago team....ever!

Lyons is a good team, but they really lack experience...every so often they go down state and place fourth....I only see them at State, and they are just so slow!

Wheaton Warrenville South will also win a lot more than they lose......just always one step behind Wheaton North.


A lot of these schools never get mentioned. I see some schools get ranked but these schools never go anywhere.....the West Suburban League used to be powerhouses, but not anymore. If you take away New Trier, that league has also gotten weak. Deerfield went downstate last year and fell to pieces.
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IHSSBCA Kickoff Results

Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh »

These should help some to determine good teams, at least in regions.

Northwestern Region, Partial Results:
Division A:
1st: Auburn A
2nd: Bettendorf, IA
3rd: Winnebago
4th: IMSA
5th: Rock Island
6th: Naperville Central
7th: Moline
8th: Streator

Pool C featured Bago, Rock Island, Naperville, and Moline, along with 2 other teams (these 2 teams did not beat any of the 4 mentioned)

Pool Play results for Pool C: Bago beat all except Naperville to go 4-1. Rock Island beat all except Bago to go 4-1. Naperville beat all except Moline to go 4-1. Moline only beat Naperville to go 3-2.

In Division 2, Byron beat Rockridge for the championship. Both teams went 5-0 in morning pool play.

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Re: Too early to tell...

Post by dtaylor4 »

morpheus wrote:Hmm. This forum seems to have become a place where players from their respective teams come to make the case for why their team deserves to be given "elite" status. Well, I guess it's my turn. I am on the Fremd scholastic bowl team, so I do have to mention that Fremd did win the LWE tournament two weeks ago, and also did pretty well at the Loyola Ultima and the New Trier individuals. Therefore by the standards of the official rankers (or whatever you call the people who rank teams), I believe Fremd deserves to be ranked as one of the best teams in the state.

As for the other top teams, I definitely think Auburn is the team to beat. I have horrible memories of losing to them two years ago at the Wheaton North Frosh-Soph tournament on the last question. And I'm pretty sure Auburn has almost the same lineup that beat us two years ago on varsity now. As for the other teams like New Trier, Stevenson, and "D Mac," I really can't say that I know where they should be ranked, only that they are all good teams. And I still think Wheaton North is a team to be respected, after all they do have the human calculator, Devin. And to my knowledge, they stuck close to Fremd before the last few questions (I was taking the SAT IIs that day).

So, egos may have been bruised by the rankings, and maybe they are indeed incorrect, but I'm going to say that the only real indicator of an elite team is whether it can consistently win head-to-head matchups with other elite teams. And at this point, these matchups haven't occured. So these rivalries are going to have to wait until the next big tournament, or maybe even the sectional/state series.
An application of your "head-to-head" test took place at the Tolono Unity Kickoff. D Mac beat up on Morton 320-145 to take first. The next tests will take place at Richards, boy that will be interesting.

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Re: Too early to tell...

Post by mlaird »

DaGeneral wrote:An application of your "head-to-head" test took place at the Tolono Unity Kickoff. D Mac beat up on Morton 320-145 to take first. The next tests will take place at Richards, boy that will be interesting.
Well, Richards will indeed be interesting, it always is because of the format and questions too. I say, that is a tournament where titans can be toppled, as was the case last year when mighty Wheaton North beat Amy Minas by only 4 points, before we came in. What proceeded was indeed a spectacle. It was Wheaton North's only loss that season (granted our overall record against them that year was 1-4).

And hey! Don't count out my team for state!

Oh, and Ken Jennings! :kenj: And I nominate Chip to replace that awful woman on Millionaire! :chip:

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Post by potato0328 »

Well, Richards will indeed be interesting, it always is because of the format and questions too. I say, that is a tournament where titans can be toppled, as was the case last year when mighty Wheaton North beat Amy Minas by only 4 points, before we came in. What proceeded was indeed a spectacle. It was Wheaton North's only loss that season (granted our overall record against them that year was 1-4).

And hey! Don't count out my team for state!
what school are you from mlaird? i don't think i missed it, unless i'm going blind or something. also, what do you mean by the question format? i've never been to richards before, and i'm really looking forward to the competition.[/quote]
directly from Fremd High School...

mlaird
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Post by mlaird »

Well, I wasn't about to brag about beating WN or anything so I was avoiding mentioning what school I was from (but if you look up at what the Admiral said at the top of the post, you'll know where I'm from).

As for the format at Richards, last year it was 15 tossups, then 6 alternating bonuses, and then a set of 10 regular questions with tossups and bonuses. It's different. It's also pretty fun, and the questions can be about some kind of wierd topics.

HAHAHA
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Post by HAHAHA »

mlaird goes to Loyola, no?

I remember the look of shock on the faces of WN after that match.

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