Kentucky 09-10

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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by mkanu »

Maybe the best test would be to actually play on HSAPQ state tournament. One with greater attendance than NAQT "State" last year. That would be the best test of skill. I mean Quick Recall is a good measure and all but honestly it's not pyramidal.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) »

Hey guys, stop talking about whether or not the best teams on speed questions are the best at pyramidal questions. The reason there is some overlap is simply because teams that prepare on pyramidal questions have a better likelihood of knowing everything that will come up in a speed based round, and thus they get more chances to win a buzzer race. It's that simple really. The hard facts though are that while often teams that are good at pyramidal questions happen to luck out and place highly in speed tournaments, many of the teams who place highly are not good, and can luck out and place higher than a team that knows more. When the questions suck (and boy does Governor's Cup suck) everything is based on chance.
Making the decision for sending a team to a pyramidal national tournament, much less one that is written to be harder than any other high school tournament in the year, based on the results of a really crappy tournament that is little better than declaring a winner by picking names out of a hat, is a horrendous idea, and the fact that people here are remotely trying to acknowledge that a tournament full of one-line questions has any legitimacy is extremely troubling.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Huang »

ericblair wrote: An all-star selection would likely take the top 6 to 8, the most dedicated and knowledgeable players who almost always perform well in both quick recall and quiz bowl.
Why would anyone even consider quick recall for this HSAPQ tournament? I guess we should pick our next Olympic swimming team with diving tryouts since the best swimmers must obviously also be the best divers (oh no, sports analogy).
ericblair wrote: Sure, it's very possible that number one in quick recall might be number 4 in quiz bowl, and number six in quick recall be number two in quiz bowl, but in the end a similar team will emerge from both tests.
I guarantee you that the "number one player in quick recall," whoever that might be (I think it's a safe bet to assume no Dunbar player would be considered for this title) will be shocked and terrified if they played in HSAPQ's tournament. Most Kentucky teams, with the exception of Dunbar and duPont Manual so far (I'm sure more teams will be added to this list as more teams quit focusing on quick recall), just aren't ready yet to play quizbowl at a high level. Based on the results of this past year's NAQT State tournament, it's clear that a significant number of "powerhouse" quick recall teams are far from being "powerhouses" at quizbowl even on relatively easier pyramidal sets (I think NAQT State is easier than the target difficulty of HSAPQ's tournament).
ericblair wrote: I reiterate, though, that because of the freak chance that someone be the fiftieth best player in the state in quick recall and one of the top eight in quiz bowl, the two all-star selection processes should be used for their respective purposes.
I still see little reason why anyone would even consider the quick recall list.

Your assumption, that all the best Kentucky players are also the best at both quick recall and quizbowl because that's what they've played since forever, is wrong.
Also, how would anyone make a list of "top 50 quick recall players" when stats aren't kept?
I'll also reiterate that I wouldn't oppose any team KAAC chooses. If their goal is to reward players who are good at Gov Cup, then I guess their assumed selection process would accomplish that goal. Although, it would be unfortunate for Kentucky to have a poor showing at the tournament due to a poor selection process.

And Dees pretty much sums up what I've been failing to get across:
Jeremy Gibbs Free Energy wrote: Making the decision for sending a team to a pyramidal national tournament, much less one that is written to be harder than any other high school tournament in the year, based on the results of a really crappy tournament that is little better than declaring a winner by picking names out of a hat, is a horrendous idea, and the fact that people here are remotely trying to acknowledge that a tournament full of one-line questions has any legitimacy is extremely troubling.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by The King's Flight to the Scots »

Huang wrote:
ericblair wrote: An all-star selection would likely take the top 6 to 8, the most dedicated and knowledgeable players who almost always perform well in both quick recall and quiz bowl.
Why would anyone even consider quick recall for this HSAPQ tournament? I guess we should pick our next Olympic swimming team with diving tryouts since the best swimmers must obviously also be the best divers (oh no, sports analogy).
ericblair wrote: Sure, it's very possible that number one in quick recall might be number 4 in quiz bowl, and number six in quick recall be number two in quiz bowl, but in the end a similar team will emerge from both tests.
I guarantee you that the "number one player in quick recall," whoever that might be (I think it's a safe bet to assume no Dunbar player would be considered for this title) will be shocked and terrified if they played in HSAPQ's tournament. Most Kentucky teams, with the exception of Dunbar and duPont Manual so far (I'm sure more teams will be added to this list as more teams quit focusing on quick recall), just aren't ready yet to play quizbowl at a high level. Based on the results of this past year's NAQT State tournament, it's clear that a significant number of "powerhouse" quick recall teams are far from being "powerhouses" at quizbowl even on relatively easier pyramidal sets (I think NAQT State is easier than the target difficulty of HSAPQ's tournament).
ericblair wrote: I reiterate, though, that because of the freak chance that someone be the fiftieth best player in the state in quick recall and one of the top eight in quiz bowl, the two all-star selection processes should be used for their respective purposes.
I still see little reason why anyone would even consider the quick recall list.

Your assumption, that all the best Kentucky players are also the best at both quick recall and quizbowl because that's what they've played since forever, is wrong.
Also, how would anyone make a list of "top 50 quick recall players" when stats aren't kept?
I'll also reiterate that I wouldn't oppose any team KAAC chooses. If their goal is to reward players who are good at Gov Cup, then I guess their assumed selection process would accomplish that goal. Although, it would be unfortunate for Kentucky to have a poor showing at the tournament due to a poor selection process.

And Dees pretty much sums up what I've been failing to get across:
Jeremy Gibbs Free Energy wrote: Making the decision for sending a team to a pyramidal national tournament, much less one that is written to be harder than any other high school tournament in the year, based on the results of a really crappy tournament that is little better than declaring a winner by picking names out of a hat, is a horrendous idea, and the fact that people here are remotely trying to acknowledge that a tournament full of one-line questions has any legitimacy is extremely troubling.
Just pointing out that the team selected by the KAAC doesn't have to be the Kentucky All-Star team. Obviously, I'm not a member, but as I understand it, HSAPQ evaluates separate bids and accepts the team it expects to do best. In other words, if KAAC decides on a team of speedcheck players, then a combined team of Dunbar/Dupont Manual sends in a bid, HSAPQ can (and likely would) admit the latter.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Scott »

I believe that pretty much everything you guys said was right.
Kentucky does, however need to decide how we are to go about selecting an effective team for the tournament.
I would hate to see as much potential as we have to place at a high level go to waste.

Dunbar has recently done an excellent job of promoting quiz bowl across the state.
Between their encouragement and attending ACE 3 times, I think our team has started to shift in a positive direction that will hopefully lead us to excel in national pyramidal tournaments.

However other teams that have been exposed to pyramidal questions should try to do a better job of trying to promote high quality quiz bowl to the teams who are currently successful in KAAC.
(I'm not saying that Grayson is doing this more than anyone else; we need to work on converting the western part of the state.)
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Huang »

Journey to the Planets wrote: In other words, if KAAC decides on a team of speedcheck players, then a combined team of Dunbar/Dupont Manual sends in a bid, HSAPQ can (and likely would) admit the latter.
Oh, please don't misconstrue my statement as "only Dunbar and duPont Manual players should be considered for this high level pyramidal tournament." There are certainly good individual players at other schools, but their coach/teammates unfortunately don't provide enough support for them so they can compete at tournaments like PACE NSC. So the teams of these good individual players might not be able to compete at a high level, but with other good quizbowl players from around the state; they certainly could. Heck, last year, two of the best history players in our state were from Henry Clay, a school located in the same city as Dunbar. Their coach unfortunately didn't seem to care too much about anything besides Gov Cup though.

Edit: Much needed clarification
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by ericblair »

Jeremy Gibbs Free Energy wrote:Hey guys, stop talking about whether or not the best teams on speed questions are the best at pyramidal questions.
Haven't others been warned or suspended from posting for trying to tell people what they can and can not talk about when it is of importance to some quizbowlers?
Jeremy Gibbs Free Energy wrote:the fact that people here are remotely trying to acknowledge that a tournament full of one-line questions has any legitimacy is extremely troubling.
AND
Huang wrote:Why would anyone even consider quick recall for this HSAPQ tournament? I guess we should pick our next Olympic swimming team with diving tryouts since the best swimmers must obviously also be the best divers (oh no, sports analogy).
No one is saying that a quick recall all-star team selection SHOULD be used for a HSAPQ national all-star tournament. At least I haven't seen anyone say this. Maybe I skipped over it. I made myself clear that separate selection processes should be used. It was merely said that the results of both selections would likely be similar if a selection based on individual results was taken in some yet non-existent test using each format.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Mechanical Beasts »

ericblair wrote:
Jeremy Gibbs Free Energy wrote:Hey guys, stop talking about whether or not the best teams on speed questions are the best at pyramidal questions.
Haven't others been warned or suspended from posting for trying to tell people what they can and can not talk about when it is of importance to some quizbowlers?
I understood what he said to be "it is nonsense to consider this question" and then he elucidated why this was nonsense. He didn't seem to be literally saying "sir, stop making posts on these subject." Your concern is appreciated, but as moderators we remember what the rules of the forum have been and still are, and we don't need to be reminded in order to enforce them in the future.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by ericblair »

Norman the Lunatic wrote:
ericblair wrote:
Jeremy Gibbs Free Energy wrote:Hey guys, stop talking about whether or not the best teams on speed questions are the best at pyramidal questions.
Haven't others been warned or suspended from posting for trying to tell people what they can and can not talk about when it is of importance to some quizbowlers?
I understood what he said to be "it is nonsense to consider this question" and then he elucidated why this was nonsense. He didn't seem to be literally saying "sir, stop making posts on these subject." Your concern is appreciated, but as moderators we remember what the rules of the forum have been and still are, and we don't need to be reminded in order to enforce them in the future.
Entendido. Because of his various attacks on quick recall format in past discussions I felt he was indeed frustrated with hearing the discussion of quick recall and really wished it would stop. In fact, I would go to the length to say he is so extreme about it that he would like to see quick recall cease to exist, and with it all discussion and reminders of it. That was my subjective view of it all. You obviously have your subjective view which differs, and yours is the one that counts in the end, chief. I will trust in your fair and balanced actions (or lack of action) as moderator from here on out.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Huang »

ericblair wrote: It was merely said that the results of both selections would likely be similar if a selection based on individual results was taken in some yet non-existent test using each format.
Short version of my past few posts in this thread: You're wrong. Stop lying.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by ericblair »

Huang wrote:
ericblair wrote: It was merely said that the results of both selections would likely be similar if a selection based on individual results was taken in some yet non-existent test using each format.
Short version of my past few posts in this thread: You're wrong. Stop lying.
Elaborate please. I want to understand why you believe the way you do using evidence based on experience or actual hard proof (not hear "You're wrong) that more times than not the top 6 or 8 in KY wouldn't make up both all-star teams. It seems totally plausible to me considering the years that I observed players in KY, which ended a few years ago. I followed quiz bowl and quick recall in high school for three years and then a year or two after while I was in college, and in KY, what I claim almost always proved true. The top 8 players were always versatile in both formats and put up the best KY numbers when counted in quick recall and quiz bowl--even when they weren't counted it was obvious they were the dominant ones in both realms. I have some kids in mind: Swathi Rao and Josh from Johnson Central (although they always seemed to value very pathetically buzz words), John Zhang and Elliot from Dunbar, Abhinav from DuPont Manual, Peter, Brandon and Monica from Russell, Ryan Taber from Daviess County, and perhaps myself and Ben Stewart from Pikeville.

I will use my senior year as an example example. Most people would claim that myself, Abhinav, John, Monica, Peter, Brandon, Faraz (a computational guy on my team), and Josh were the top eight quick recall players in no particular order. With the exception of Faraz, the other seven proved to be the most solid KY players in quiz bowl. In a quiz bowl selection Faraz would have probably been replaced by Ryan from Daviess County. This phenomenon, if you will, occurred other years as well, and will likely occur this year.

Unless this has drastically changed in the last three years or so then I am not a liar. I have fair grounds on which to believe this. If it has changed then forgive me for my failure to keep up with the Joneses.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Rococo A Go Go »

Eric, you're in the right patch of the woods, but you're barking up the wrong tree. You're correct in saying that the best teams and players in quick recall are generally good at quizbowl, and vice versa. But the two are still very different games and at times there is a great difference between one's performance in the two formats. Great quick recall players aren't ALWAYS great quizbowl players, and great quizbowl players aren't ALWAYS great quick recall players. That is why that the HSAPQ team would need to be based on quizbowl performance, because the exact top quizbowl players can't be 100% accurately told from quick recall results.

Let me use a personal, albeit poor, example. Last year at NAQT State I finished 4th in individual scoring. While there were probably 5 or 6 players absent that would have beaten me had they been present, that still would suggest I was one of the higher performing indivduals in the state. However, at quick recall, I was nowhere near that good, and including me on any top 15 list for QR or whatever would have been completely wrong. In Quick Recall matches, I did pretty good last year, and I usually scored about the same amount per match as my teammate Scott did. BUT, at KY NAQT Scott scored half of the points per game that I did. He was clearly better at quick recall than quizbowl last year (perfectly understandable for a freshman though), while I was better at quizbowl than quick recall.

Now, that's not perfect because NAQT isn't HSAPQ, not all the best players were at KY NAQT, and I'm not a good enough player to be making this distinction on anyway. But I think you can understand my core point here.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by ericblair »

Yes, Nick, I do understand your core point that the two formats are different and one player can be better at one format than another, because I too believe that. I have been around long enough to see this. I have never denied that nor tried to argue against it. And also I have never said that the top players in KY quick recall will ALWAYS ( you assumed I said the infamous word ALWAYS) be the top players in KY quiz bowl. Only that most of them will. I pointed out in my first post or two about this that most players would be. I thought I made it even more clear with my example from my senior year, which suggested that one player who was amazing at quick recall was rather mediocre at quiz bowl. And in nearly all of my posts I have supported both selection processes for the separate formats.

If I can make one suggestion to all it would be to read carefully what I have said so I won't have to repeat myself over and over again. I have never said that number one from quick recall will be number one in quiz bowl. Nor visa versa. Only that the teams chosen from both selections (if based on merit in the two different formats) will look simliar.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Whiter Hydra »

Also, TJ has never won the It's Academic TV show, despite having won four HSNCTs and one NSC. When you get to the top teams, the Quick Recall-esque formats turn into little more than buzzer races between top teams, and pyramidal Quizbowl is all about not making it a game of reflexes.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by mkanu »

So we all agree that we need to base an all-star team on HSAPQ questions.

Now the question becomes who is going to hold a tournament? UofL? or someone could hold it at a school. Somewhere centrally located, with enough space for a "state-level" tournament. It would, I guess, run like regional QR except with a larger field.
Any volunteers?
What's the field going to be like?
Will it be elimination or round-robin? (though on that note I think it should be round-robin as the point is to find the best individual scores)

OR

Someone could run subject specific tournaments, like ACE, designed to see who knows the most in each subject area, that way making sure that the KY team is the most balanced. If we went with that idea we would need Lit, Fine Arts, Science, Social Studies, Math (non-computational) and Math (computational) tournaments. But, unlike ACE, I think people should be able to compete in as many tournaments as they want to compete in.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Nine-Tenths Ideas »

Earthquake wrote:Also, TJ has never won the It's Academic TV show, despite having won four HSNCTs and one NSC. When you get to the top teams, the Quick Recall-esque formats turn into little more than buzzer races between top teams, and pyramidal Quizbowl is all about not making it a game of reflexes.
Bingo. We beat TJ last year, and there's absolutely no way our team last year could be considered "one of the best."
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by David Riley »

We haven't workeed out the full logistics yet, but will probably do something similar to what we did for Panasonic: a centrally located(Lexington in your case?) tryout, several rounds (probably including both subject rounds and mixed rounds), one-on-one vs. group rounds. With Panasonic, we had a selection committee who decided the team, but not sure how that will work in this incarnation.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by ericblair »

mkanu wrote: Math (computational) tournaments. But, unlike ACE, I think people should be able to compete in as many tournaments as they want to compete in.
I haven't taken a look at many HSAPQ sets yet, but I don't remember there being much computation. I am not sure that would be necessary.

And yes, students should be able to try out in as many different subject areas as possible so as to ensure the best possible selection. Each player's maximum potential should be tapped in an all-star selection process in which they will represent their state.

Also, the distribution of HSAPQ packets should be taken into consideration when determining the selection. For example, one student may dominate every philosophy question (and answer almost nothing else), but that's only 1/1 a packet at the most--40 points per match. However, the science student may not answer correctly all 5/5 of science in the distribution but he will maybe get 3 out of the 5. In this case the science player would assist in getting the team around 120 points, even though he doesn't master his category like the philosophy player.

Ideally, and what will probably happen, is that those players selected as all-stars in the main categories (History, Science, Literature, Fine Arts) will be able to compensate for the minor categories of social science, geography, etc.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) »

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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by at your pleasure »

Yet another example: Noted really good player Shantanu Jha was never good enough on speedchecks to make our TV team.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by ericblair »

Doink the Clown wrote:Yet another example: Noted really good player Shantanu Jha was never good enough on speedchecks to make our TV team.
Beating a dead horse. It was made clear earlier that this isn't the case with other states. No one has claimed that, therefore, examples like this are unnecessary. This phenomenon seems to happen, to the best of my knowledge, only in KY for some reason. The reason for KY exceptionalism is still up in the air for debate. I'd like to hear more views on why the best KY players normally manage both quiz bowl and quick recall well, although perhaps unequally well, and why other states don't.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by dbarman »

ericblair wrote:
Doink the Clown wrote:Yet another example: Noted really good player Shantanu Jha was never good enough on speedchecks to make our TV team.
Beating a dead horse. It was made clear earlier that this isn't the case with other states. No one has claimed that, therefore, examples like this are unnecessary. This phenomenon seems to happen, to the best of my knowledge, only in KY for some reason. The reason for KY exceptionalism is still up in the air for debate. I'd like to hear more views on why the best KY players normally manage both quiz bowl and quick recall well, although perhaps unequally well, and why other states don't.
At least nowadays, I feel like it is not even true in Kentucky. I believe the best way to determine HSAPQ All-stars would be to have a selection procedure completely separate from the KAAC one. We may see a few repeat players, but honestly, I really feel like there would be less than 3-4 repeats out of 8 players on both All-star teams.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by ericblair »

dbarman wrote:
ericblair wrote:
Doink the Clown wrote:Yet another example: Noted really good player Shantanu Jha was never good enough on speedchecks to make our TV team.
Beating a dead horse. It was made clear earlier that this isn't the case with other states. No one has claimed that, therefore, examples like this are unnecessary. This phenomenon seems to happen, to the best of my knowledge, only in KY for some reason. The reason for KY exceptionalism is still up in the air for debate. I'd like to hear more views on why the best KY players normally manage both quiz bowl and quick recall well, although perhaps unequally well, and why other states don't.
At least nowadays, I feel like it is not even true in Kentucky. I believe the best way to determine HSAPQ All-stars would be to have a selection procedure completely separate from the KAAC one. We may see a few repeat players, but honestly, I really feel like there would be less than 3-4 repeats out of 8 players on both All-star teams.
That's really interesting that you say it has changed so much. I really can't judge that because I haven't kept up with it in a while. Perhaps my reasoning is outdated, which is very much possible. I am just anxious to see what comes of it all at the end of the year.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Scott »

Man, many players from _____________ are not and never have been excellent. Even if they have placed high in quick recall tournaments for the past 10 years that doesn't mean jack. Teams from ____________ just do not try to excel on deeper levels. They learn a few generic ass buzz phrases and beat up some teams in quick recall tournaments in KY and get big heads, when really it just proves how stupid they are for thinking that makes them the ****. I became pretty **** good at that shameful art of BSing knowledge in a span of one year. A monkey's *** could do that. Sure, not everyone from ____________ fits this category, but I've known several and this is certainly the case. I really hope that your "promise" of_______________ getting better goes in the direction I'm referring to (towards in depth knowledge that will help in quiz bowl). Then perhaps _________________ would get respect that you THINK they deserve.
I do not want to invoke an argument, but it is clear from this that your opinions have changed somewhat on the issue of players from Kentucky being good at both quick recall and quizbowl.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by ericblair »

grayson77 wrote:
Man, many players from _____________ are not and never have been excellent. Even if they have placed high in quick recall tournaments for the past 10 years that doesn't mean jack. Teams from ____________ just do not try to excel on deeper levels. They learn a few generic ass buzz phrases and beat up some teams in quick recall tournaments in KY and get big heads, when really it just proves how stupid they are for thinking that makes them the ****. I became pretty **** good at that shameful art of BSing knowledge in a span of one year. A monkey's *** could do that. Sure, not everyone from ____________ fits this category, but I've known several and this is certainly the case. I really hope that your "promise" of_______________ getting better goes in the direction I'm referring to (towards in depth knowledge that will help in quiz bowl). Then perhaps _________________ would get respect that you THINK they deserve.
I do not want to invoke an argument, but it is clear from this that your opinions have changed somewhat on the issue of players from Kentucky being good at both quick recall and quizbowl.
No, not so much. The only thing that has changed is tone. I still believe that being excellent at quick recall doesn't necessarily mean you are excellent at quiz bowl. I have already addressed that several times but people seem to keep reading it over it. Isn't there some technical term for this reading only what you want to believe? Maybe limited-effects theory? The quote you just posted was directed towards those who get a big head because they do very well at quick recall but significantly perform worse when it comes to a real test of knowledge. This doesn't happen so often with the best Kentucky players, but it does happen, as was the case with my former teammate (minus the big head part). Yes I exaggerated a bit in my past post. It was mainly frustration at a few and intended to flame people, which I regret doing. The truth though is that their is quite a bit of overlap in the two with KY teams, however, quiz bowl gives the most accurate outcome, for it is a real test of knowledge.

What is at hand is the fact that most of the best quiz bowlers from KY tend to be good at quick recall as well. It was the case for myself and others in the list that I mentioned. No, none of the people that I listed were excellent at quiz bowl. And by excellent, I mean top ten in the nation. I think very few from KY have been able to reach this level. But the people I refered to could put up respectable numbers and maybe be in the top 30 of the nation, which is still a feat considering all the players in the country.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by mkanu »

Moving along from that debate. Here are some more interesting questions yet to be answered:

Who would coach an"all-star" team?
Would said team have the opportunity to practice a few times as a team?
If they do practice, where would they meet?
Who would provide questions?
If we want teams turned in by March 18th don't we need to organize the tournament before then?
If we do hold a tournament what would the entry fee be? or would there even be an entry fee?
Who's going to actually decide who's on the team?
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Huang »

ericblair wrote:
dbarman wrote: At least nowadays, I feel like it is not even true in Kentucky. I believe the best way to determine HSAPQ All-stars would be to have a selection procedure completely separate from the KAAC one. We may see a few repeat players, but honestly, I really feel like there would be less than 3-4 repeats out of 8 players on both All-star teams.
Perhaps my reasoning is outdated, which is very much possible.
Then I'll be the second (?) person to tell you your reasoning is outdated. You graduated in 2004 when pyramidal quizbowl just started improving in terms of writing. The game has certainly changed to make it alot harder to be both a good speedchecks player and a good quizbowl player.

Edit: Added a key word
Last edited by Huang on Wed Oct 07, 2009 1:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Scott »

The way I see things a player who has a large knowledge base is going to be good at both speed checks and quiz bowl.
However, when playing in a competitive environment (between top 10 in state) the differences in knowledge will be far more noticeable in pyramidal questions.

This is just a made up example, not meant to be taken literally.
It is for two teams, but could be applied to individuals:

Case 1
Grayson plays Dunbar on a set of quick recall questions.
Dunbar and Grayson split many of the questions because they are buzzer races.
Dunbar gets quite a few questions because they have a larger breadth of knowledge than us.
Dunbar beats Grayson 50-35.
Who the best team is is evident, but not how much better they are.

Case 2
Grayson plays Dunbar on a set of HSAPQ questions.
Dunbar gets nearly every tossup on us because they have a greater depth of knowledge.
Dunbar beats Grayson 400-60
The difference in the levels of the teams is much more evident.

So, the way I see it, quick recall is an effective way to separate good teams from average teams.
However, pyramidal questions are much more effective in actually testing knowledge and distinguishing between more competitive teams.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by at your pleasure »

I propose the following alternate scenario.
Team A is strong on lit, fine arts, social sciences, philosophy and European/non-western history.
Team B is weaker than team A overall and weak in the above-mentioned areas, but strong in American history, geography, mathcalc, and general knowledge/trash/vocabulary.
Team A and B play a set of speedchecks with less lit, philosophy and arts, and more American history, geography, and mathcalc(this is hardly implausible for most speedchecks). Team B gets ever so slightly more mathcalc ,GK, and geography, and team A gets ever so slightly more lit, philosophy, and fine arts. They split American history and possibly the remaining academic categories. This scenario would seemingly lead to a team B victory, even though team A was the stronger team. This scenario may even be a bit biased twards speedchecks, since I don't all but hand mathcalc to team B(even though in places like Illinois, a team with a good mathcalc player can really dominate the category), mostly ignore subjects that appear in local formats but not in mainstream quizbowl, and assume that the questions give some shred of advantage to the more knowledgable team.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) »

The problem with your scenario, Scott, is that it presumes the more knowledgeable team will still eke out a victory no matter what. This is extremely flawed, as many examples in this thread alone about TJ, the best team in the country at the time, not winning the It's Academic gameshow demonstrate. I also lost a number of games to Liberty high school my junior year despite the fact that they, a team that went 4-6 at the HSNCT, were much more average than us, a team that went 8-2 at the same event.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Scott »

That's true, especially when both teams are at a "formidable" level.
That is why I really wish KAAC would try a little bit harder in their effort to make their questions more pyramidal.
It is also a responsibility of the states upper tier of teams to both focus on both improving at pyramidal questions and spreading a good image for high quality quiz bowl
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by David Riley »

Just curious, as a former born-and-bred Kentuckian (Atherton HS class of 1974), about certain schools (both quick recall and quiz bowl):

Are any Louisville schools other than duPont Manual or Ballard active participants?
What about the other Lexington area schools--Tates Creek, Lafayette, etc.?
Then, what about schools in Ashland/Boyd, Paducah/McCracken, other Kentucky urban areas?

Again, just curious.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Huang »

David Riley wrote: What about the other Lexington area schools
Most Lexington schools are active, in the sense that they compete in Gov Cup.
Usual contenders in the region include Henry Clay and Lexington Catholic in addition to Dunbar. Other schools who compete include Bryan Station, Lafayette, Sayre, and Tates Creek. Main problem in getting these schools to care about anything besides Gov Cup is a lack of enthusiasm from their coaches/sponsors coupled with the fact that most of the players choose to be rather obedient/dependent.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by David Riley »

Interesting comment. For many years I was criticized in some quarters for not being more of a "hands on" coach. My stance has been that the students generally (should) know what they're doing, and I don't need to interfere unless they're totally off-track. Recently, my students have taken much more ownership of the team--I coordinate the paperwork, transportation, etc., and certainly support them always and guide them when needed, but they do most of the other work themselves.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Huang »

David Riley wrote:Interesting comment. For many years I was criticized in some quarters for not being more of a "hands on" coach. My stance has been that the students generally (should) know what they're doing, and I don't need to interfere unless they're totally off-track. Recently, my students have taken much more ownership of the team--I coordinate the paperwork, transportation, etc., and certainly support them always and guide them when needed, but they do most of the other work themselves.
Yeah, more teams need independent minded players
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Rococo A Go Go »

In Louisville, there is starting to be more participation among certain schools. Obviously Manual and Ballard are active, and Eastern and PRP have started to attend a few quizbowl tournaments. Trinity, St. X., and Kentucky Country Day seem to be more interested in quick recall, and have all 3 started to see a little bit of success in that. Just about every school in the city competes in Gov Cup.

Sandy gave a pretty good rundown for Lexington.

Northern Kentucky is highly populated (something like 300,000 or 400,000 when you combine the population figures) and all of the schools have active quick recall/Gov Cup programs. A few teams are active in quizbowl like Campbell County, and especially Simon Kenton. SK had a very solid team last season.

For the 3rd largest city in Kentucky, you've got the Owensboro/Daviess County area. Owensboro, Daviess County, Apollo, and Owensboro Catholic all have very active quick recall programs, and both Owensboro and Apollo have become more active in quizbowl over the last couple of years. The local league is called the "Pennyrile Academic Association" that many of the teams in our area (including Grayson County) compete in, and recently the questions have become much more pyramidal.

The 4th largest city in Kentucky is Bowling Green has active quick recall teams at Greenwood, Warren Central, Bowling Green, and Warren East. They compete in a league (alongside Grayson) called the “South Central Kentucky Academic Association”, which is run on some of the most god-awful quick recall questions in all of humanity. None of the schools have made it to many quizbowl tourneys (Greenwood has a really good team this year too) although Edmonson County just to the north does go. Hopefully my residence in Bowling Green will eventually create a good quizbowl environment here if I ever get a quizbowl club kick started at WKU. A new HS named Warren South will come about next year, and we’ll wait and see what direction they go.

The Paducah area has a few good quick recall programs, and all of the schools do Gov Cup. Lone Oak and Marshall County are the most successful Purchase teams. However, as for quizbowl, they’re a little cut off from the rest of the state and it’s more difficult for a Paducah team to go all the way to Lexington or Louisville. Tourneys in Missouri should recruit these teams though, and if Carbondale (IL) hosts a tourney they should contact those schools as well. Grayson County will try to get some of them to do more quizbowl, although I’d say Madisonville could have more effect if they ever host a tournament.

Ashland has several quick recall programs in the area (we played Ashland Blazer at state last year) and Russell is a county over. Russell is a very good program in QR and quizbowl, and most everyone in the nation knows something about them.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by akinney »

It's weird Nick should mention the possibility of Madisonville hosting a tournament. We were actually thinking about hosting a tournament with either house written questions or NAQT questions. But our team is still very new to the idea of writing questions so that's not really likely. But this was all just a possibility, and in no way suggests that we actually WILL (or conversely, won't). We wanted to get some of the western Kentucky schools interested in quiz bowl, so we could compete with the big boys at state.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by FCPanther »

I'm glad to read that Madisonville and Grayson are looking into the possiblities of adding tournaments within the state. We had hoped to get to Grayson's tournament this year. The addition of more tournaments, with different formats certainly adds a great deal of flavor to the state's competition, and should add to the number of active teams.

At Fleming Co. we are in the VERY EARLY stages of looking into adding some type of quizbowl tournament, probably in the fall, which means it won't happen this year. I do have several issues that we would need to resolve:

1. I don't want to set a conflicting date with someone else: i.e. Danville, Russell (if they revive that tournament), Dunbar and U of L in particular.

2. Need to see what others in the state are doing and avoid oversaturating things with NAQT or HSAPQ. (thus I'm not sure with format we'd go with).

3. Our winter quick recall tournament has always drawn fairly well, is our biggest fundraiser, and has provided many teams particulary in the eastern half of the state (although we do get Daviess and MVNH up here with some regularity) with one last tournament before Gov. Cup. I can't burn out my officials and my former players that come back to help out.

In other words...we need to strike some sort of balance to keep teams in the area involved and expand that involvement. Any suggestions to make help make adding something in the fall feasible, without hurting the tournament that we already have. Basically we can make it to 3 or 4 tournaments a year (on top of league and Gov. Cup) as it stands. We'd like to be able to earn enough to add more tournaments. Thoughts?

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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by akinney »

Mr. Grannis,

Madisonville has always enjoyed, as you said, competing in one last pre-Gov Cup tournament, and it is usually the FCAT. However, the questions as well as the long distance (basically across the state) have always been a source of discontent for us. If you hosted another, more quiz bowl-style tournament, Madisonville would definitely go. I do not know, however, if we would keep going to the current one.

The best thing to do is discount prices for each reader/judge/scorekeeper every team brings. Say, knock 10 dollars off of my team's fee if we brought a reader. That's the best way I know of as far as limiting how many local volunteers is required.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by FCPanther »

Aaron,

I appreciate the input concerning the FCAT. I can tell you that I am aware of the issues relating to the questions, and have changed sources for this upcoming tournament. If the competition sets are comparable to the samples then the quality should be better. It is difficult to find "good" quick recall questions. (which is part of the reason I'd like to add another tournament).

The suggestions for discounts are something I definitely will consider. I'm not sure if it's feasible to make those changes before the upcoming tourney, just because I already have several commitments, but I'll see if it's workable.

thanks,

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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by akinney »

I'm glad you changed. I believe the others were Patrick's Press, and to be honest, they are the worst questions ever. :lol:
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by FCPanther »

They weren't Patrick's Press. They were actually produced in Kentucky...but you're right they weren't very good.

I've got a new source from out of state that should be better.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by akinney »

Oh, I'm sorry. Maybe I confused that with the Hart County tournament (which I am sure is PP).
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by David Riley »

Pardon this intrustion by an Illinois interloper:

With regard to the earlier posts about additional tournaments in Kentucky. This is a good trend; as the "keeper of the calendar" for Illinois and a seasoned coach, please allow me to offer the following unsolicited advice (as my students will tell you, my favorite kind! :grin:)

1) Is there a coaches' association, perhaps something outside of KAAC? If so, you might want to consider an annual meeting to iron out calendar issues (In Illlinois, we have started the process as early as April of the year before, as there are by this point many claimed dates). John Bennet should probably be involved in this, as well as other key people throughout Kentucky, including a rep or two who is an active player.

2) Avoiding conflicting tournaments in the same region is fine--if you can do it. If tournaments become popular this might become increasingly difficult.

3) Be clear what questions the tournament espouses: quick recall, NAQT, HSAPQ, housewrites, whatever.

4) Don't be lulled into thinking bigger is better. If you can run a 60-team tournament with quality moderators, then more power to you. Otherwise, there is nothing wrong with hosting a small tournament.

5) For many years I used volunteer (read: community) moderators, and you may have no chioice. If so, have one or more training sessions for them, and be especially clear that tournaments need to run like clockwork. I once had a moderator who was finishing round #3 when everyone else had started round #5!!!


Good luck!
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Huang »

FCPanther wrote: 2. Need to see what others in the state are doing and avoid oversaturating things with NAQT or HSAPQ.
NAQT tournaments in Kentucky last year: 3
Louisville hosted 2
Dunbar hosted 1

HSAPQ tournaments in Kentucky last year: 0

NAQT tournaments in Kentucky this year: 2
Louisville will presumably again host 2
Dunbar is still undecided for its spring tournament

HSAPQ tournaments in Kentucky this year: 1
Danville hosted 1


So as far as I can tell, over-saturation of NAQT and HSAPQ shouldn't be a concern for a tournament host.
I'm curious, how much do speedcheck companies charge for their questions?
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by FCPanther »

Sandy,

I've looked at those numbers too (tournament breakdowns) and think it's possible to get something going in this part of the state. That's assuming Russell doesn't revive their tournament, or someone else east of I-75 and North of I-64 doesn't add an event (with a little better geography than us).

We want to make certain to avoid other dates that have been claimed both in state, and those tournaments that tend to draw Kentucky teams (Vandy, Wright State, Dunbar, U of L, Danville, etc.) so it's a little more than just those tournaments that are within Kentucky's geographic borders.

Now about the speed check sets...it really depends on what you want. The one liners (that Aaron correctly commented on) where very inexpensive, and very poor questions. Those questions were $17 per round (100 questions in quick recall format) and I don't think they'd been edited or updated since I was playing quick recall in the late 1980s. The sets I'm purchasing for the upcoming FCAT are considerably more expensive, but based on the samples and the set I purchased for a couple of scrimmages last year SHOULD be much better.

Anyway...we do plan on keeping the quick recall tournament where it is because it is a good Governor's Cup tuneup, and there are many teams that want that quick recall experience heading into district and regional play. If we add an NAQT or HSAPQ tournament (again I need to assess manpower and feasibilty concerns) it would probably be in the fall, and that gets back to potential conflicts with other tournaments that draw teams from the Commonwealth.

Thoughts?

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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Huang »

Oh yeah, I did forget about out of state tournaments

How many rounds does your tournament typically do?
I understand that HSAPQ charges $16 per team and NAQT charges $18 per team.
If the questions you're ordering this year are significantly more expensive than $17 per round, it might be financially safer to go with maybe one of the pyramidal question providers.

I can understand the reason for a tournament as a tuneup for Gov Cup. Without Gov Cup, our state would probably be much worse off since KAAC has been key in at least fostering academic competition throughout the state. Even if I disagree with its current state of being, I at least know that John Bennett and co. are trying as hard as they can to overcome organizational inertia.

But yeah, definitely check out which fall date will work for you guys next year. It's always nice to just have to travel within state for a vendor set than to travel out of state for the same vendor set.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Rococo A Go Go »

David Riley wrote: Is there a coaches' association, perhaps something outside of KAAC?
I don't think there is one at the moment, but it's something I'd love to see. I'm not a real coach, so I'm not really in a position to say we should get an organization like this together. I'll say this though: If I reach my goal of teaching and coaching in a few years and a coaches organizations doesn't exist yet, I will start saying that we need to get one together.

Also, how cool is it that Kentucky has a tournament getting mirrored by so many other areas of the quizbowl community? If DAFT and its many mirrors are successful, this may end up being Kentucky's best contribution to good quizbowl in quite a while.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by CALClass82 »

J C Bennett wrote:Everything hinges on having writers who either (a) know our format and understand the concept of multiple clues in descending order of difficulty or (b) know the concept of multiple clues in descending order of difficulty and can follow the format instructions we provide.
I sincerely appreciate KAAC Director John Bennett's posting in this forum. As a coach for over 15 years and having served as contest manager numerous times for district and regional competitions, I applaud his efforts to revise the question writing. Things have improved in recent years. Yes, some one or two-line buzzer race questions still exist in Quick Recall, but they are not the norm. Already this year, I've read KAAC QR sets where many/most of the questions were four to six lines with "multiple clues in descending order of difficulty." Some of the "CLOOS" issues may exist, but it's clear progress is being made.

The competition format may not change and the questions won't suddenly transform into NAQT or HSAPQ, but credit should be given where it is due. Some on this forum may wish for the latter changes to happen immediately. However, I would suggest that at this point in time, it's good to know that KAAC is responsive and that the overall direction toward pyramid-style questions should help all participants, including those preparing for NAQT tournaments as well as Governor's Cup.
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Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by CALClass82 »

soaringeagle22 wrote:In Louisville, there is starting to be more participation among certain schools. Obviously Manual and Ballard are active, and Eastern and PRP have started to attend a few quizbowl tournaments. Trinity, St. X., and Kentucky Country Day seem to be more interested in quick recall, and have all 3 started to see a little bit of success in that. Just about every school in the city competes in Gov Cup.
It may be worth noting that there has been a Non-Public School Quick Recall League in the Louisville area for at least the last two decades.
Current league teams: Assumption, Christian Academy of Louisville, Collegiate, DeSales, Kentucky Country Day, Mercy, Providence (IN), Sacred Heart, St. Francis, St. X, and Trinity

As KAAC moves closer to pyramid-style questions for Quick Recall competition, it will be interesting to see if local schools decide to compete in more Quizbowl tournaments utilizing NAQT, including my own team of students with on-again, off-again commitment over the years. Travel would be a concern, but some already head to the Vandy tournament and there was an NAQT tournament scheduled for today at the University of Louisville. With the right group of students/parents, that obstacle is easier to overcome.
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