HSAPQ: Fall Tournaments Sets Available

[Adventure Temple Trail]

Moreover, is NSC-2 going to be available on the webpage?

[master15625]

It probably will be, but we do not know when they will post it. But the last time it was used is I believe May 16th, 2009

[The Toad to Wigan Pier]

NSC2 now online

[The King's Flight to the Scots]

15. Rossetti depicted this man executing a portrait of a friend in his [this man] Painting the Portrait of
Dante Alighieri. This student of Cimabue surpassed his teacher in depicting facial expression and realistic
draperies, such as in his late work The Mourning of St. Francis. The Uffizi currently holds a work by this
man in which a black-robed Mary holds a red-clad Christ, the Ognissanti Madonna. This artist is best
known for a fresco cycle including The Marriage at Cana and The Kiss of Judas. For 10 points, name this
early Italian Renaissance painter who did a fresco cycle for Padua’s Arena Chapel.
Ans: Giotto
Does "student of Cimabue" come too early here? I thought that was commonly known, but then again, that's pretty much all I know about Giotto.

EDIT: Aaaaaaaaaand I suck at HTML.

[at your pleasure]

It probably does, and the rest of that clue is none too spectacular either. "More realistic emotions/draperies" could really apply to loads of 13th and 14th century Italian painters. If you wanted a non-works clue, something about how his Last Judgement is influenced by Pietro Cavallini's would be better. In general, and I've said this before, questions about art prior to 1450 or so have to be really careful about their clues since so many of the paintings are so similar.

[Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)]

I think a vast majority of high school quizbowl players have never heard of Cimabue in their life.

[at your pleasure]

He's still probably more famous than the Death of St. Francis.

[cvdwightw]

I think a vast majority of high school quizbowl players have never heard of Cimabue in their life.

I got bored one day last year and started flipping through my brother's AP Art History review book. That Giotto was the student of Cimabue was about the only thing I still remember from my skimming of pages. That said, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that being a middle clue. I'd say it's maybe a line too early, and that's just because of the whole "it's in the review book, therefore people might know it" thing.

[The King's Flight to the Scots]

I only know it from a passage in the Purgatorio that references them.

[Captain Sinico]

Does "student of Cimabue" come too early here?

I think it does. I'd put that as a second-to-last or last clue.

MaS

[Down and out in Quintana Roo]

I don't really know how often people look at each packet in its entirety (compared to a whole set), but i really want to see if i'm off base here.

I got one person to agree with me so far but i'd like more so i don't seem, i dunno, off base or something.

http://hsapq.com/nsc108/Round_10_HSAPQ_NSC1.pdf

To me, this packet is just ridiculously hard. Read the last eight tossups... pulsars, rebellions of Ireland, D.H. Lawrence, Visigoths, Madame Bovary, J.M.W. Turner, potassium ion channels, Dionysus... now i know we're all professionals here (or whatever) and these all seem easy to us but they are clearly not to the average or below-average high school team. I could imagine reading these to plenty of teams in Delaware and (please read the questions, they are harder than the answers indicate) seriously getting possibly one or none of these final tossups right. That's not supposed to happen.

While we complain a lot about NAQT's wacky distribution, i just want to register one of my few complaints about HSAPQ: varying difficulty of packets. Some are very easy (see Round 1 for example) and then some are really just too hard. I hope these sorts of things can be fixed a little by possibly more play-testing or heavier editing/checking.

[ihavenoidea]

Seriously? I mean Madame Bovary, Dionysus, and to a degree D.H. Lawrence seem like perfectly good tossup ideas to me.

[Down and out in Quintana Roo]

I'm not saying that they're hard singularly, but all-encompassingly they are... believe me i read to a lot of mediocre teams this year who might honestly know none of those at all. All those questions, on the surface, are fine... but in a row like that, it's brutal. Again, read Round 1 and compare. It's a different world.

[Important Bird Area]

I don't think either of the history tossups in that sequence (Ireland and Visigoths) is at all hard.

Compare the middle-and-end of that Visigoths tossup:

"Ultimately defeated by Muslim forces, Septimania was their last Gallic stronghold, and their chieftain Wallia died after their settlement of Aquitaine. Ataulphus led them into Spain, and Euric codified their laws. For 10 points name this Germanic group led by men such as Alaric and Theodoric I that separated from the Ostrogoths in the 4th century."

with this tossup that I wrote for NAQT IS #82A:

"This people's kings included Reccared, who converted them to Catholicism. Although they ruled Spain for almost three centuries, they first entered the (*) Roman Empire over the Danube. For 10 points--name this barbarian group who sacked Rome in 410, the former neighbors of the Ostrogoths."

[Kouign Amann]

I mean, it basically gives you "name these Goths who aren't the Ostrogoths." It doesn't get any easier than that.

[dtaylor4]

pulsars, rebellions of Ireland, D.H. Lawrence, Visigoths, Madame Bovary, J.M.W. Turner, potassium ion channels, Dionysus

Offhand, I see at most three that might go dead in a room with two average teams: Ireland, Turner, and the ion channels.

Any half-decent lit player should convert Lawrence and Bovary. Except for Hestia (which should be rarely tossed up due to the dearth of extant information compared to other deities/figures), any major Olympian is askable.

Those who study ancient Rome will encounter the Visigoths, and I'd guess the Irish rebellions tossup had a decent giveaway.

[The King's Flight to the Scots]

pulsars, rebellions of Ireland, D.H. Lawrence, Visigoths, Madame Bovary, J.M.W. Turner, potassium ion channels, Dionysus

Offhand, I see at most three that might go dead in a room with two average teams: Ireland, Turner, and the ion channels.

Any half-decent lit player should convert Lawrence and Bovary. Except for Hestia (which should be rarely tossed up due to the dearth of extant information compared to other deities/figures), any major Olympian is askable.

Those who study ancient Rome will encounter the Visigoths, and I'd guess the Irish rebellions tossup had a decent giveaway.

I have to side with Mr. Chrzanowski on this one. You're right that most decent teams would be able to get most of those by the giveaway. However, I would say that people know less about the Visigoths than, say, Martin Luther or the Moon; I would also posit that people would get most of the questions in packet 10 later than in packet 1. Although none of the questions in packet 10 are exceedingly difficult, they are noticeably more difficult than the questions in packet 1.

Nevertheless, HSAPQ's questions remain far better than NAQT's.

[Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)]

True fact: when I read that tossup on the moon, it went dead in the game.

[dtaylor4]

I have to side with Mr. Chrzanowski on this one. You're right that most decent teams would be able to get most of those by the giveaway. However, I would say that people know less about the Visigoths than, say, Martin Luther or the Moon; I would also posit that people would get most of the questions in packet 10 later than in packet 1. Although none of the questions in packet 10 are exceedingly difficult, they are noticeably more difficult than the questions in packet 1.

Nevertheless, HSAPQ's questions remain far better than NAQT's.

True fact: when I read that tossup on the moon, it went dead in the game.

This is an example of where your line of reasoning fails, and I meant to include this in my previous post: the answers in and of themselves do not dictate difficulty. They certainly affect conversion rates, but the clues themselves have a greater impact on conversion.

Another example (these come to mind since there are a number of them): common link myth tossups on "sun," "moon," "creation myths," etc. Such tossups can be written such that they are converted in a large number of rooms, but depending on what level they're written for, may include Elamite or Native American mythologies.

[The King's Flight to the Scots]

I have to side with Mr. Chrzanowski on this one. You're right that most decent teams would be able to get most of those by the giveaway. However, I would say that people know less about the Visigoths than, say, Martin Luther or the Moon; I would also posit that people would get most of the questions in packet 10 later than in packet 1. Although none of the questions in packet 10 are exceedingly difficult, they are noticeably more difficult than the questions in packet 1.

Nevertheless, HSAPQ's questions remain far better than NAQT's.

True fact: when I read that tossup on the moon, it went dead in the game.

This is an example of where your line of reasoning fails, and I meant to include this in my previous post: the answers in and of themselves do not dictate difficulty. They certainly affect conversion rates, but the clues themselves have a greater impact on conversion.

Another example (these come to mind since there are a number of them): common link myth tossups on "sun," "moon," "creation myths," etc. Such tossups can be written such that they are converted in a large number of rooms, but depending on what level they're written for, may include Elamite or Native American mythologies.

Still, if you look at the actual tossups, the packet 1 questions are still far easier than the packet 10 questions. The giveaway for "moon" was "body that orbits the earth", so I'm assuming Charlie wasn't exactly reading for State College and Charter, or that the Freshman Fallacy kicked in.

It's kind of difficult to debate this over this forum, since that would involve posting direct comparisons of a number of tossups, but I've noticed this trend in other HSAPQ sets (namely, acf4) as well. Again, the quality of the questions they produce is still admirable for their first year as an organization.

[master15625]

It's kind of difficult to debate this over this forum, since that would involve posting direct comparisons of a number of tossups, but I've noticed this trend in other HSAPQ sets (namely, acf4) as well. Again, the quality of the questions they produce is still admirable for their first year as an organization.

I do agree that the quality is good, but there are some things outside of question writing that they should improve upon, particularly in their communications.

ACF 4-I agree with that statement. Packet 1 was like completely easier compared to some of the double digit packets. That may be a good thing, because an increase in difficulty is needed to distinguish teams as a tournament moves along.

[Mechanical Beasts]

Can you provide specifics for ACF-4?

[wd4gdz]

an increase in difficulty is needed to distinguish teams as a tournament moves along.

This is exactly what I believe, although there's definitely not a consensus about it. Actually, I think most people disagree with this, unfortunately.

[Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)]

That however is unfeasible for a company like NAQT or HSAPQ because of the wildly different playoff formats used by different tournaments. I think everyone can agree that keeping the prelim matches fairly constant is a good thing - it just is impossible for a company to dictate to hosts what packets should be used when, and how. If you make the first 5 packets easy and then make the next 5 harder, then what do you do with 7 round prelim formats? Similarly, unless you use a single elimination format, it makes no sense to run a round robin and have some games be arbitrarily harder than others but count the same assuming you incrementally increase each packet's difficulty. Because of the unknowable nature to all of this, even if everyone did agree that increasing difficulty is a good thing (which I'll be honest, I don't because I feel that every game in a tournament should logically tie to the others through consistency), it is undeniable that it would be impossible to pull of in a way that benefits all customers.

[master15625]

Can you provide specifics for ACF-4?

I guess I consider it somewhat easier is that lots of famous clues come somewhat earlier on in the questions than I feel they should. I should revise the statement completely easier to just somewhat easier, as I realize that the questions in Packet 1 are not completely easier than the double digit.

I will give some examples of what I felt as somewhat easier/earlier.
From Packet 1,

Question 1. In one play by this author, Serafina delle Rose ends a three-year mourning period when she meets a
truck driver, and in another of his plays a disgraced minister becomes a tour guide in Mexico. In addition
to The Rose Tattoo...

Question 2. Works for solo piano by this composer include Visions fugitives and Suggestion diabolique. He
included the movement “The Evil God and the Dance of the Pagan Monsters” in his Scythian Suite...

Question 15. After rebounding an Allen Iverson shot, this player scored the winning basket in the 2006 NBA All-
Star Game. Before Cole Aldrich, this player was the last to have a triple-double in the NCAA tournament,
doing so in 2003 for Marquette...

Question 17. An early prime minister of this region was Gerrit P. Judd, and its monarchy was forced to accept the
1887 Bayonet Constitution. John L. Stevens was its first American leader, and this region was annexed as
a US territory under Sanford Dole...

Question 20. He expanded his nation's Muslim population in his conquests of Astrakhan and Kazan, two Tatar
states. He founded the Oprichniki...

Wherever the ellipsis come, I feel that those clues are where teams should be able to buzz in, as this information has come up a lot in previous tournaments and are somewhat famous clues that teams know from previous tournaments.

If I am underestimating the difficulty, I am sorry, I just feel that this is true.

[Not That Kind of Christian!!]

Can you provide specifics for ACF-4?

I guess I consider it somewhat easier is that lots of famous clues come somewhat earlier on in the questions than I feel they should. I should revise the statement completely easier to just somewhat easier, as I realize that the questions in Packet 1 are not completely easier than the double digit.

[examples]

Wherever the ellipsis come, I feel that those clues are where teams should be able to buzz in, as this information has come up a lot in previous tournaments and are somewhat famous clues that teams know from previous tournaments.

If I am underestimating the difficulty, I am sorry, I just feel that this is true.

I think some of these are accurate (Oprichinki, for instance), but you're also underestimating the difficulty for the large majority of teams, if not yourself. There are certainly players for whom a clue like Scythian Suite is too early, but for the average player and for an easy set like ACF-4, Scythian is a good early-middle clue for Prokofiev.

[Cheynem]

Difficulty is variable--I would hope good teams who have heard a lot of questions and studied packets would be able to buzz at some of those points. I don't see that as inherently a problem because I'm pretty sure there's still going to be a lot of teams who couldn't buzz there (plus a few teams who would buzz before your "famous clues" anyway).

[wd4gdz]

If I am underestimating the difficulty, I am sorry, I just feel that this is true.

I think you are underestimating the difficulty. You are a very, very, very good high school player, and in getting to that level, you might have read college-level packets like EFT 2008 and/or ACF Fall 2008. Both of those tournaments had tossups on Prokofiev, and both mentioned the Scythian Suite -- in lines 1 and 3, respectively. Once in a while, pat yourself on the back for your knowledge.

[Mechanical Beasts]

Yeah, I see what you mean for each of them: each of those clues is knowable, so you should buzz there [if you have learned that clue]. The issue is that 90% of our audience doesn't know the first-line clues, and 75% doesn't know the second-line clues, and 50% doesn't know the third-line clues... You are, it seems, good at quizbowl.

[master15625]

Difficulty is variable--I would hope good teams who have heard a lot of questions and studied packets would be able to buzz at some of those points. I don't see that as inherently a problem because I'm pretty sure there's still going to be a lot of teams who couldn't buzz there (plus a few teams who would buzz before your "famous clues" anyway).

I guess "famous" doesn't really work here, but what I was trying to say by famous was that teams who play a lot and prepare for these tournaments should be able to get there.

And yeah, people would buzz in before, but I was just giving the location at where teams who play a lot and prepare for tournaments should be able to get.

[Down and out in Quintana Roo]

If I am underestimating the difficulty, I am sorry, I just feel that this is true.

I think you are underestimating the difficulty. You are a very, very, very good high school player, and in getting to that level, you might have read college-level packets like EFT 2008 and/or ACF Fall 2008. Both of those tournaments had tossups on Prokofiev, and both mentioned the Scythian Suite -- in lines 1 and 3, respectively. Once in a while, pat yourself on the back for your knowledge.

Neil, in case if wasn't clear, you do this a lot. You've pointed out questions/clues that are too easy that simply are absolutely not. It's not really a bad thing, but it just means that you're pretty awesome and things should be easy for you at times.

[gyre and gimble]

I would agree that Scythian Suite is pretty obscure, but I'd also say that it is used very frequently as an early clue on Prokofiev tossups. Just something I've noticed, but I haven't paid close enough attention to point out where. (I haven't read EFT or ACF 2008, btw).

On the other hand, Scythian Suite is probably the first work by Prokofiev that I had become familiar with; it's in Emerson, Lake, and Palmer's "In Concert" album.

[Down and out in Quintana Roo]

Answer the following about some named items from Norse myth, for 10 points each.
[10] The sword known as Nothung, Balmung, or Gram was owned by this son of Sigmund, killer of Fafnir,
and hero of the Volsungcycle.
ANSWER: Sigurd [or Sigfried; prompt on “Hart“]
[10] Examples of these items include Frey's Skidbladnir, which could fold up and fit in a pocket, and
Hrym's Naglfar, which was made of clipped fingernails and toenails.
ANSWER: ship [accept equivalents]

Where is the "easy" part here?

[Down and out in Quintana Roo]

Also, this is in the same packet:

20. Its school in Edessa was closed by imperial edict, and this sect was condemned by one council for
denying the title of Theotokos, or God-Bearer, for the Virgin Mary. The Indian portion of this sect was
known as the Christians of St. Thomas, and its namesake was an early bishop of Constantinople.
Sometimes called the Assyrian Church and the Church of the East, those who reunited with the Roman
church in 1551 were called Chaldeans. Condemned at the councils of Ephesus and Chalcedon, for 10
points, name this Christian set that stressed the independence of the human and divine natures of Jesus
Christ.
ANSWER: Nestorianism

That is too hard for a tossup, really.

[Unicolored Jay]

Answer the following about some named items from Norse myth, for 10 points each.
[10] The sword known as Nothung, Balmung, or Gram was owned by this son of Sigmund, killer of Fafnir,
and hero of the Volsungcycle.
ANSWER: Sigurd [or Sigfried; prompt on “Hart“]
[10] Examples of these items include Frey's Skidbladnir, which could fold up and fit in a pocket, and
Hrym's Naglfar, which was made of clipped fingernails and toenails.
ANSWER: ship [accept equivalents]

Where is the "easy" part here?

Sometimes it seems as if bonuses in the Related Tossup/Bonus section in PACE formats vary from easy/medium to medium/hard to easy/hard, but that's just me. I guess Sigurd is the easier part as he is more asked-about than ships in Norse mythology; as a decent mythology player I only got the first part the first time I read it.

[master15625]

Answer the following about some named items from Norse myth, for 10 points each.
[10] The sword known as Nothung, Balmung, or Gram was owned by this son of Sigmund, killer of Fafnir,
and hero of the Volsungcycle.
ANSWER: Sigurd [or Sigfried; prompt on “Hart“]
[10] Examples of these items include Frey's Skidbladnir, which could fold up and fit in a pocket, and
Hrym's Naglfar, which was made of clipped fingernails and toenails.
ANSWER: ship [accept equivalents]

Where is the "easy" part here?

Isn't Sigfried a famous hero in Norse Mythology? Wouldn't that be somewhat a well known and important part?

[Self-incompatibility in plants]

Answer the following about some named items from Norse myth, for 10 points each.
[10] The sword known as Nothung, Balmung, or Gram was owned by this son of Sigmund, killer of Fafnir,
and hero of the Volsungcycle.
ANSWER: Sigurd [or Sigfried; prompt on “Hart“]
[10] Examples of these items include Frey's Skidbladnir, which could fold up and fit in a pocket, and
Hrym's Naglfar, which was made of clipped fingernails and toenails.
ANSWER: ship [accept equivalents]

Where is the "easy" part here?

Isn't Sigfried a famous hero in Norse Mythology? Wouldn't that be somewhat a well known and important part?

Does the fact that you are asking if he is the answer your second question? I'm not saying that it is too hard of a question, but it is not easy enough to be the easy part of a bonus at this level.

[master15625]

Isn't Sigfried a famous hero in Norse Mythology? Wouldn't that be somewhat a well known and important part?

Does the fact that you are asking if he is the answer your second question? I'm not saying that it is too hard of a question, but it is not easy enough to be the easy part of a bonus at this level.

I misstated my question, I meant to say for my second question wouldn't that be an alright question to ask and a fair one as well?

I mean, all questions cannot always have an easy part to it, sometimes there are going to be questions that are going to have as its easiest question as the medium difficulty, which is important in distinguishing teams.

Round 11 is one of those later rounds, so it could be a reason why the bonus may have been harder than some think it should have.

[Kouign Amann]

I think the wonkiness of the old NSC format also plays into this. What exactly were the conversion targets for a two-part bonus? No one really ever said. That's why this format was eliminated.

[Down and out in Quintana Roo]

Isn't Sigfried a famous hero in Norse Mythology? Wouldn't that be somewhat a well known and important part?

Does the fact that you are asking if he is the answer your second question? I'm not saying that it is too hard of a question, but it is not easy enough to be the easy part of a bonus at this level.

I misstated my question, I meant to say for my second question wouldn't that be an alright question to ask and a fair one as well?

I mean, all questions cannot always have an easy part to it, sometimes there are going to be questions that are going to have as its easiest question as the medium difficulty, which is important in distinguishing teams.

Round 11 is one of those later rounds, so it could be a reason why the bonus may have been harder than some think it should have.

Rounds aren't supposed to get harder. Or, at least, HSAPQ never stated that this was the case. It would be nice if they said so, one way or another, now.

[Magister Ludi]

HSAPQ is sorry that some overly difficult questions (e.g. Nestorianism) were included in our sets. The rounds are meant to be evenly difficult and are not designed to become progressively harder as the tournament goes on. Just over this past year our writers have gained a stronger grasp of appropriate answer selection and there is constant internal discussion within HSAPQ about controlling difficulty and making next year's sets more accessible than the questions from this year. One of our primary goals is having the most accessible questions possible and next year we will have far more stringent controls on tossup difficulty.

Also HSAPQ has discontinued the NSC set that had the two part bonuses, which suffered from ambiguous definitions of the difficulty for the two parts. I think this ambiguity for two-part bonuses led to the overly difficult Siegfried bonus cited above.

[Down and out in Quintana Roo]

Also HSAPQ has discontinued the NSC set that had the two part bonuses, which suffered from ambiguous definitions of the difficulty for the two parts. I think this ambiguity for two-part bonuses led to the overly difficult Siegfried bonus cited above.

It did. Thanks Ted. That answered/addressed pretty much everything i pointed out.

[Tanay]

[10] Name this state, the home of Crater Lake, with capital at Portland.
Answer: Oregon

^^ that question is in HSAPQ ACF2 Round 3...bonus 4

I don't think any American state has a capital at Portland...

[Self-incompatibility in plants]

[10] Name this state, the home of Crater Lake, with capital at Portland.
Answer: Oregon

^^ that question is in HSAPQ ACF2 Round 3...bonus 4

I don't think any American state has a capital at Portland...

Oh my...

[master15625]

The person who was doing that question was obviously very sleepy...i hope. But luckily the problem was minor, since Crater Lake is pretty big in Oregon.

[Kouign Amann]

The person who was doing that question was obviously very sleepy...i hope. But luckily the problem was minor, since Crater Lake is pretty big in Oregon.

I hear Portland is pretty big as well.

[master15625]

The person who was doing that question was obviously very sleepy...i hope. But luckily the problem was minor, since Crater Lake is pretty big in Oregon.

I hear Portland is pretty big as well.

Portland is really big in Maine as well, so that is why we can't really consider it as the main defining clue for Oregon.

[Kouign Amann]

The person who was doing that question was obviously very sleepy...i hope. But luckily the problem was minor, since Crater Lake is pretty big in Oregon.

I hear Portland is pretty big as well.

Portland is really big in Maine as well, so that is why we can't really consider it as the main defining clue for Oregon.

Crap, I always forget about Maine. Never mind then. Carry on.

[master15625]

I was just wondering. Which ACF-style this year was intended to be the hardest of the four? It seems as if ACF-3 was the hardest of the four, so I was wondering if because of the power marks that this was the reason why ACF-3 was intentionally made the hardest?

Thanks

[Down and out in Quintana Roo]

One part of this initiative was the creation of the Department of Transportation and this also led to the creation of the Center for Public Broadcasting and National Public Radio. The Elementary and Secondary Transportation Act set the precedent of national funding for public schools and this program created the Head Start preschool system. Other reforms under this sweeping moniker include Food Stamps, Medicare, and the Civil Rights Act of 1964. For 10 points name this set of domestic reforms initiated by Lyndon B. Johnson.
ANSWER: Great Society

Probably just a typo, but i'm pretty sure that's supposed to be "The Elementary and Secondary Education Act."