ICT and Friday night games
- Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)
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ICT and Friday night games
I sent NAQT an email about this topic today and want to get some board feedback because I don't feel like it's been discussed enough, but am I the only person out there who feels like ICT should somehow change their schedule to eliminate Friday night rounds and either run it all at once or move some games over to Sunday? To me it seems like there are no apparent benefits to the current setup, yet there are lots of negatives. Friday night rounds force you to have to leave to travel a lot earlier than you otherwise would have (and given that there are still a lot of places that take some kind of attendance that factors into your grade, it's not as cut and dry as "you can afford to miss a day of class if you really want to play" for everyone), and they also lead to nonsense like having to miss games if your flight is delayed for later in the evening, most notable when Eric Mukherjee last year missed the important game against UC-Irvine in the prelims. It just seems to me that we should make Friday a day strictly for travel so that some teams can get in later than others and not have to worry about missing games, and that given the ICT's nature as a national championship this should be the case even more so that they can accommodate the field better. I want to see if anyone else on the board feels this way, and if so maybe this is something we can band together and convince NAQT to change, especially if it goes well at ACF Nationals.
Charlie Dees, North Kansas City HS '08
"I won't say more because I know some of you parse everything I say." - Jeremy Gibbs
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Re: ICT and Friday night games
IMO, if it's possible for either NAQT or ACF to run everything on a Saturday, then everything should be run on a Saturday, and the fear of running late should simply not be a factor- playing games until 8 or 9 is preferable to playing games over two days. As it so happens, this directly affects us- we're actually going to have one of our players miss the first 2-3 rounds because he can't get out of lab until 3.
Chris White
Bloomfield HS (New Jersey) '01, Swarthmore College '05, University of Pennsylvania '10. Still writes questions occasionally.
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Re: ICT and Friday night games
Plus, not having games on friday would give people time to recuperate from the trip if they have traveled a great distance. Having games or Saturday and Sunday works well for HSNCT, and it avoids the issues with school absences.
Douglas Graebner, Walt Whitman HS 10, Uchicago 14
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Re: ICT and Friday night games
I'm a staunch opponent of two-day tournaments, whether ACF Nationals or ICT. However, the Friday/Saturday combination is much worse than the Saturday/Sunday one. Getting a day off is often a non-trivial thing even for students.
Jerry Vinokurov
ex-LJHS, ex-Berkeley, ex-Brown, sorta-ex-CMU
presently: John Jay College Economics
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- Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)
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Re: ICT and Friday night games
So since someone voted to keep things the same, can you please post a brief rationale for why you don't see any problem? Since right now all there are only people in this thread giving their reasons for wanting a different system, if someone is willing to articulate their belief in why we are wrong, please post it so we can actually know a reason someone likes Friday night rounds, because I haven't heard one yet.
Charlie Dees, North Kansas City HS '08
"I won't say more because I know some of you parse everything I say." - Jeremy Gibbs
"At one TJ tournament the neg prize was the Hampshire College ultimate frisbee team (nude) calender featuring one Evan Silberman. In retrospect that could have been a disaster." - Harry White
"I won't say more because I know some of you parse everything I say." - Jeremy Gibbs
"At one TJ tournament the neg prize was the Hampshire College ultimate frisbee team (nude) calender featuring one Evan Silberman. In retrospect that could have been a disaster." - Harry White
Re: ICT and Friday night games
I have no difficulty skipping Friday classes, and being able to fly back Saturday night after everything ends is nice, since I means I'll be back at school all of Sunday to catch up on work. If the games ran Saturday / Sunday, then Friday and Sunday would both end up being travel days, and the tournament would eat the entire weekend.
Re: ICT and Friday night games
I generally agree with what Dan said. Also, in my previous experiences, it's easier (and cheaper) to fly in the morning.
Billy Beyer, formerly of FSU
Re: ICT and Friday night games
Hi Everyone,
Before Jeff Hoppes makes a longer response (and before I respond to Charlie's e-mail), I wanted to chime in as an ICT organizer to highlight the distinction between 2010 onward and 2009.
The biggest reasons why a change to the 2009 schedule is unfeasible, in no particular order:
1. Sunday games are out of the question because many teams and staff have already booked early Sunday return flights.
2. Saturday evening games would depend on getting some sort of waiver on the timing when we ostensibly lose the meeting rooms. I don't know whether that's possible at this late date.
3. The basic schedule has been posted at http://www.naqt.com/ict/2009/details.html since at least February 12; changing it after March 7 would hose some teams who had already read and relied on that post.
The biggest reason why the 2009 schedule is such is that the year N ICT has generally had a similar timetable to the year N-1 ICT.
On the other hand, for what it's worth, the most recent post-ICT survey included this question [and responses]:
How would you most like to see the ICT arranged on a weekend?
[ 42% ] Friday evening through Saturday afternoon (the current system)
[ 11% ] Saturday morning through Saturday afternoon (a short day)
[ 32% ] Saturday morning to Saturday night (a long day)
[ 25% ] Saturday morning through Sunday noon
[ 13% ] I don't care.
(Yes, the "begin Saturday" sentiment outnumbers the "begin Friday.")
None of the above settles anything for 2010 of course. (Partly because of travel logistics from the West Coast, I would strongly prefer that future ICTs be Saturday-only myself, but that obviously hasn't been the NAQT consensus.)
Before Jeff Hoppes makes a longer response (and before I respond to Charlie's e-mail), I wanted to chime in as an ICT organizer to highlight the distinction between 2010 onward and 2009.
The biggest reasons why a change to the 2009 schedule is unfeasible, in no particular order:
1. Sunday games are out of the question because many teams and staff have already booked early Sunday return flights.
2. Saturday evening games would depend on getting some sort of waiver on the timing when we ostensibly lose the meeting rooms. I don't know whether that's possible at this late date.
3. The basic schedule has been posted at http://www.naqt.com/ict/2009/details.html since at least February 12; changing it after March 7 would hose some teams who had already read and relied on that post.
The biggest reason why the 2009 schedule is such is that the year N ICT has generally had a similar timetable to the year N-1 ICT.
On the other hand, for what it's worth, the most recent post-ICT survey included this question [and responses]:
How would you most like to see the ICT arranged on a weekend?
[ 42% ] Friday evening through Saturday afternoon (the current system)
[ 11% ] Saturday morning through Saturday afternoon (a short day)
[ 32% ] Saturday morning to Saturday night (a long day)
[ 25% ] Saturday morning through Sunday noon
[ 13% ] I don't care.
(Yes, the "begin Saturday" sentiment outnumbers the "begin Friday.")
None of the above settles anything for 2010 of course. (Partly because of travel logistics from the West Coast, I would strongly prefer that future ICTs be Saturday-only myself, but that obviously hasn't been the NAQT consensus.)
Matt Bruce
Harvard '96, Boston University School of Law '99
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Re: ICT and Friday night games
I have nothing to add to Matt's post, other than that this survey appears to account for 123% of ICT participants. I've asked R. to clarify the numbers.matt979 wrote: How would you most like to see the ICT arranged on a weekend?
[ 42% ] Friday evening through Saturday afternoon (the current system)
[ 11% ] Saturday morning through Saturday afternoon (a short day)
[ 32% ] Saturday morning to Saturday night (a long day)
[ 25% ] Saturday morning through Sunday noon
[ 13% ] I don't care.
(Yes, the "begin Saturday" sentiment outnumbers the "begin Friday.")
Jeff Hoppes
President, Northern California Quiz Bowl Alliance
former HSQB Chief Admin (2012-13)
VP for Communication and history subject editor, NAQT
Editor emeritus, ACF
"I wish to make some kind of joke about Jeff's love of birds, but I always fear he'll turn them on me Hitchcock-style." -Fred
President, Northern California Quiz Bowl Alliance
former HSQB Chief Admin (2012-13)
VP for Communication and history subject editor, NAQT
Editor emeritus, ACF
"I wish to make some kind of joke about Jeff's love of birds, but I always fear he'll turn them on me Hitchcock-style." -Fred
- grapesmoker
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Re: ICT and Friday night games
There's no reason for ICT to take two days anyway. Everything could be done on Saturday, and in any case, you can't spare one weekend to attend a national tournament? Saturday and Sunday aren't work days, which is why having the tournament happen on those days is optimal, rather than forcing people to beg for days off.dschafer wrote:I have no difficulty skipping Friday classes, and being able to fly back Saturday night after everything ends is nice, since I means I'll be back at school all of Sunday to catch up on work. If the games ran Saturday / Sunday, then Friday and Sunday would both end up being travel days, and the tournament would eat the entire weekend.
Jerry Vinokurov
ex-LJHS, ex-Berkeley, ex-Brown, sorta-ex-CMU
presently: John Jay College Economics
code ape, loud voice, general nuissance
ex-LJHS, ex-Berkeley, ex-Brown, sorta-ex-CMU
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Re: ICT and Friday night games
Upon looking at the schedule, it seems like it would be perfectly feasible to run the tournament over one (long) day. If people need Sunday to catch up, they can fly back late Saturday( or fly out Sunday morning and bring schoolwork with them). My original post advocating a Saturday/Sunday breakup was on the assumption that the field was significantly larger than it will, in fact, be.
EDIT: Schaefer, I assume you accounted for the fact that if you do not miss Friday, you will have less work to catch up on.
EDIT: Schaefer, I assume you accounted for the fact that if you do not miss Friday, you will have less work to catch up on.
Douglas Graebner, Walt Whitman HS 10, Uchicago 14
"... imagination acts upon man as really as does gravitation, and may kill him as certainly as a dose of prussic acid."-Sir James Frazer,The Golden Bough
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Re: ICT and Friday night games
Your experience, not so universal. I can sure skip them, but I can't skip the midterm I have Friday morning before the ICT. Sometimes real life is real.dschafer wrote:I have no difficulty skipping Friday classes, and being able to fly back Saturday night after everything ends is nice, since I means I'll be back at school all of Sunday to catch up on work. If the games ran Saturday / Sunday, then Friday and Sunday would both end up being travel days, and the tournament would eat the entire weekend.
Andrew Watkins
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Re: ICT and Friday night games
Apologies for the fact that we seem to have mixed percentages with raw numbers of votes.bt_green_warbler wrote:I have nothing to add to Matt's post, other than that this survey appears to account for 123% of ICT participants. I've asked R. to clarify the numbers.matt979 wrote: How would you most like to see the ICT arranged on a weekend?
[ 42% ] Friday evening through Saturday afternoon (the current system)
[ 11% ] Saturday morning through Saturday afternoon (a short day)
[ 32% ] Saturday morning to Saturday night (a long day)
[ 25% ] Saturday morning through Sunday noon
[ 13% ] I don't care.
(Yes, the "begin Saturday" sentiment outnumbers the "begin Friday.")
The correct values are:
[ 42% ] Friday evening through Saturday afternoon (the current system)
[ 8% ] Saturday morning through Saturday afternoon (a short day)
[ 23% ] Saturday morning to Saturday night (a long day)
[ 18% ] Saturday morning through Sunday noon
[ 9% ] I don't care
Jeff Hoppes
President, Northern California Quiz Bowl Alliance
former HSQB Chief Admin (2012-13)
VP for Communication and history subject editor, NAQT
Editor emeritus, ACF
"I wish to make some kind of joke about Jeff's love of birds, but I always fear he'll turn them on me Hitchcock-style." -Fred
President, Northern California Quiz Bowl Alliance
former HSQB Chief Admin (2012-13)
VP for Communication and history subject editor, NAQT
Editor emeritus, ACF
"I wish to make some kind of joke about Jeff's love of birds, but I always fear he'll turn them on me Hitchcock-style." -Fred
Re: ICT and Friday night games
Work for me is pretty much "homework/projects" at this point; missing Friday means missing lectures, while missing Sunday means missing lots of potential homework/project time. For people for whom work means, well, "work", missing Friday would obviously be more difficult.Anti-Climacus wrote:Upon looking at the schedule, it seems like it would be perfectly feasible to run the tournament over one (long) day. If people need Sunday to catch up, they can fly back late Saturday( or fly out Sunday morning and bring schoolwork with them). My original post advocating a Saturday/Sunday breakup was on the assumption that the field was significantly larger than it will, in fact, be.
EDIT: Schaefer, I assume you accounted for the fact that if you do not miss Friday, you will have less work to catch up on.
Yeah, I understand completely; if I had a midterm or major assignment due, I'd feel the same way.everyday847 wrote:Your experience, not so universal. I can sure skip them, but I can't skip the midterm I have Friday morning before the ICT. Sometimes real life is real.dschafer wrote:I have no difficulty skipping Friday classes, and being able to fly back Saturday night after everything ends is nice, since I means I'll be back at school all of Sunday to catch up on work. If the games ran Saturday / Sunday, then Friday and Sunday would both end up being travel days, and the tournament would eat the entire weekend.
Honestly, I'm not sure which schedule I believe is best for all parties involved. For my particular situation for this particular year, though, the Friday-Saturday schedule ended up being ideal, and I figured I'd toss that out there as an example of where the Friday-Saturday schedule would work out.
- Captain Sinico
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Re: ICT and Friday night games
You do realize that you've by definition polled people for whom the current schedule works, right?
MaS
MaS
Mike Sorice
Former Coach, Centennial High School of Champaign, IL (2014-2020) & Team Illinois (2016-2018)
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Re: ICT and Friday night games
In response to Mike's post, would it be feasible to poll this year's SCT attendees (emailing team contacts, or whatever) for a decision about the 2010 ICT? (I'm assuming that polling attendees of the 2010 SCTs wouldn't leave enough time to make a decision about that year's ICT.)
The Friday-Saturday setup of the ICT has struck me as a holdover from the earlier days of the circuit (for example, I recall that both ELVIS and Deep Bench used such a schedule back in the day) that I would be glad to see go. I strongly prefer one long Saturday tournament, if possible (and I don't see why it shouldn't be possible), but if a two-day tournament is inevitable, I prefer Saturday/Sunday to Friday/Saturday.
The Friday-Saturday setup of the ICT has struck me as a holdover from the earlier days of the circuit (for example, I recall that both ELVIS and Deep Bench used such a schedule back in the day) that I would be glad to see go. I strongly prefer one long Saturday tournament, if possible (and I don't see why it shouldn't be possible), but if a two-day tournament is inevitable, I prefer Saturday/Sunday to Friday/Saturday.
Susan
UChicago alum (AB 2003, PhD 2009)
Member emerita, ACF
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Re: ICT and Friday night games
Yes, we know. I've asked R. to expand future surveys to include the teams that decline ICT bids as well. I can't think of an easy way to identify individual players who have schedule conflicts, but if you're in this situation, please write to us. We're open to changes for 2010.Captain Scipio wrote:You do realize that you've by definition polled people for whom the current schedule works, right?
MaS
Edit: I cross-posted with Susan. Polling this year's SCT attendees seems like a fine idea. I'll suggest it to R.
Jeff Hoppes
President, Northern California Quiz Bowl Alliance
former HSQB Chief Admin (2012-13)
VP for Communication and history subject editor, NAQT
Editor emeritus, ACF
"I wish to make some kind of joke about Jeff's love of birds, but I always fear he'll turn them on me Hitchcock-style." -Fred
President, Northern California Quiz Bowl Alliance
former HSQB Chief Admin (2012-13)
VP for Communication and history subject editor, NAQT
Editor emeritus, ACF
"I wish to make some kind of joke about Jeff's love of birds, but I always fear he'll turn them on me Hitchcock-style." -Fred
Re: ICT and Friday night games
I strongly prefer a one-day tournament. If it has to be stretched out for two days, I guess I would prefer Saturday-Sunday because it's never cool to have to play the night you've driven in.
Mike Cheyne
Formerly U of Minnesota
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Re: ICT and Friday night games
This is why I for one am not going to ICT – I know I could just skip class, it's what everyone does and all, but (even though none of my classes this semester are the kind where every absence costs you a percentage point or whatever from your average) I don't feel comfortable doing so.Jeremy Gibbs Free Energy wrote:Friday night rounds force you to have to leave to travel a lot earlier than you otherwise would have (and given that there are still a lot of places that take some kind of attendance that factors into your grade, it's not as cut and dry as "you can afford to miss a day of class if you really want to play" for everyone)
M(ir)ia(m) Nussbaum
Former player for Ithaca High School, Cornell, MIT
Former player for Ithaca High School, Cornell, MIT
Re: ICT and Friday night games
This is an excellent idea, with the side benefit that it will confirm that NAQT has the right e-mail contacts for the teams in question. (SCT hosts were expected to give us their e-mail contacts for each of this year's teams; not all hosts actually did so promptly.)myamphigory wrote:In response to Mike's post, would it be feasible to poll this year's SCT attendees (emailing team contacts, or whatever) for a decision about the 2010 ICT?
Matt Bruce
Harvard '96, Boston University School of Law '99
Harvard '96, Boston University School of Law '99
Re: ICT and Friday night games
To add to what others were saying, as a grad student and TA, I teach a class. My class meets on Friday afternoon, and while I could potentially find somebody to cover the class for me, it's not something I want to do. I suppose this is something that affects DI teams more than DII teams.
Colin McNamara, Boise State University
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Re: ICT and Friday night games
Yeah, I guess I should add my perspective, too. I'm going to have to call in some favors to have someone else run my lab Thursday evening (since we're driving, we've got to leave then.)
MaS
MaS
Mike Sorice
Former Coach, Centennial High School of Champaign, IL (2014-2020) & Team Illinois (2016-2018)
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Re: ICT and Friday night games
This shouldn't even be subject to polling. It's actually very simple: Saturday and Sunday are the weekend, and that means that people who work don't work then. That's it, that's the only justification you need to have the tournament on those days and have Friday night available to travel.
Jerry Vinokurov
ex-LJHS, ex-Berkeley, ex-Brown, sorta-ex-CMU
presently: John Jay College Economics
code ape, loud voice, general nuissance
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Re: ICT and Friday night games
Eh, I can think of justifications to hold the tournament on Friday/Saturday, even if I don't really think it's optimal. Flying out on Saturday night, for instance, is generally cheaper than flying out on Sunday at any point. You also save money on a hotel room, since you only need to book one for Friday night, rather than Friday and Saturday night.
That being said, there are also many valid arguments for hosting on just Saturday or, if necessary, Saturday and Sunday.
That being said, there are also many valid arguments for hosting on just Saturday or, if necessary, Saturday and Sunday.
Mike Bentley
Treasurer, Partnership for Academic Competition Excellence
Adviser, Quizbowl Team at University of Washington
University of Maryland, Class of 2008
Treasurer, Partnership for Academic Competition Excellence
Adviser, Quizbowl Team at University of Washington
University of Maryland, Class of 2008