2020 ACF Winter - Specific Question Discussion

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2020 ACF Winter - Specific Question Discussion

Post by Quinctilius Varus »

This is the thread to discuss specific questions from 2020 ACF Winter, which will be posted to the archive later this week.
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Re: 2020 ACF Winter - Specific Question Discussion

Post by warum »

Here are two questions that I wrote down for negative reasons while playing the set. There are a much larger number of questions that I enjoyed, which I might comment on once I see the packets.

There was a bonus about Massachusetts in literature that seemed to refer to The Crucible as being set in a state. It's definitely set in a colony before the United States existed.

One of the early clues in the Architecture tossup on "opera houses" referred to the facade of a building in Valencia designed by Santiago Calatrava. I found this frustrating because Calatrava also designed a science museum in the same large cultural complex in Valencia. I negged with "museum" because I thought of that building immediately and didn't remember the opera house at the same time. Given the details about the facade, the clue was definitely uniquely identifying, but it still seemed to punish me for having real knowledge to a certain extent.
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Re: 2020 ACF Winter - Specific Question Discussion

Post by Zealots of Stockholm »

warum wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 9:17 pm Here are two questions that I wrote down for negative reasons while playing the set. There are a much larger number of questions that I enjoyed, which I might comment on once I see the packets.

There was a bonus about Massachusetts in literature that seemed to refer to The Crucible as being set in a state. It's definitely set in a colony before the United States existed.
Ah yes this is my bad, I should've said "modern-day state" at least. mea culpa.
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Re: 2020 ACF Winter - Specific Question Discussion

Post by reindeer »

I enjoyed reading this set! There were a lot more good ideas than I could list, but I remember particularly enjoying the bonus on fantasy coffins and the tossup on creoles.
Bonus H.9 wrote:[10] In the guru–shishya system, students lived at gurukulam while supposedly using these scriptures to learn mathematics and astronomy. These four scriptures include the magical Atharva and the ancient Rig.
ANSWER: Vedas
What's "supposedly" doing here? I don't actually know anything about this, but a quick search indicates that the guru-shishya system is/was intended to be a serious learning tradition, so it seems odd to editorialize in this way.

Also, bonus C.12 appeared to be primarily themed around rape in ancient Rome. To me this is a surprising and, honestly, dubious choice so I'm curious--what was the process that led to its inclusion? Was this a considered decision, or an oversight, or something else?
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Re: 2020 ACF Winter - Specific Question Discussion

Post by whatamidoinghere »

I greatly enjoyed the vast majority of the questions in this set, but I was a little confused as to why there wasn't a prompt on either aldose or ketose on the bonus part about reducing sugars, since from what I heard the bonus part discussed free carbonyl groups, which both aldoses and ketoses have.
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Re: 2020 ACF Winter - Specific Question Discussion

Post by db0wman »

Could I see the tossup on virtue in packet J? thanks!
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Re: 2020 ACF Winter - Specific Question Discussion

Post by tiwonge »

I staffed the tournament and didn't play, but there were still some things I particularly enjoyed.

I enjoyed the bonus on Native American art, and the native clues (particularly the Navajo monster slayer twins clue) in the spider myth question. (Also the Mississippian culture question.) Thank you for including them! I'm always happy to see native content.
Packet H, Tossup 20 wrote:It’s not war, but Ammon Hennacy’s opposition to this practice led Dorothy Day to argue that Christians should defy it in The Catholic Worker.
This opening clue would have baffled me had I been playing. I know that Dorothy advocated that the Catholic Worker houses not take advantage of the tax-exempt status for nonprofits, but this seemed to be saying that Christians should defy it, and it doesn't make sense to say that Christians should defy being tax-exempt. At the same time, especially when comparing it to war, it makes sense that it's talking about not paying taxes. (I don't know Ammon Hennacy, but I do know that the practice of tax resistance is something that people in this movement might do.) So, I couldn't decide if it was talking about paying taxes or not paying taxes. I don't know if I would have buzzed in at this point with taxes or not, because I wasn't sure which way it was going, and wouldn't have known what to do if prompted. I probably would finally have figured out that it was just talking about tax in general on the third clue (The second clue was about the widow's mite, and I don't associate the widow's mite with taxes, since she's donating to the temple, not giving to the state.) Don't get me wrong, I loved the Catholic Worker opening clue, but it wasn't as helpful as it could have been. I don't know if using the word "resistance" instead of "opposition" would have been too much of a giveaway, but it probably would have clarified it for me.
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Re: 2020 ACF Winter - Specific Question Discussion

Post by cwasims »

db0wman wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 10:12 pm Could I see the tossup on virtue in packet J? thanks!
Pack J wrote: After the “life of growth” and “life of perception” are ruled out in one text, this concept is discussed as a possible function for man. A book titled for this concept claims that the “state of grave disorder” of its author’s field is due to a focus on emotivism instead of teleology. One thinker implicitly contrasted craft expertise with four “intellectual” examples of this concept. The “aretaic turn” refers to the recent popularity of this concept, which is discussed in an Alasdair MacIntyre book titled After [this concept]. Attaining this concept requires achieving a “golden mean” between excess and deficiency, according to Aristotle’s Nicomachean Ethics. Deontology and utilitarianism are often contrasted with, for 10 points, an ethical approach named for what type of positive character trait?
ANSWER: virtues [accept virtue ethics or variety of excellence; accept arete until “aretaic” is read]
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Re: 2020 ACF Winter - Specific Question Discussion

Post by db0wman »

cwasims wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 11:56 pm
db0wman wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 10:12 pm Could I see the tossup on virtue in packet J? thanks!
Packet* J wrote: After the “life of growth” and “life of perception” are ruled out in one text, this concept is discussed as a possible function for man. A book titled for this concept claims that the “state of grave disorder” of its author’s field is due to a focus on emotivism instead of teleology. One thinker implicitly contrasted craft expertise with four “intellectual” examples of this concept. The “aretaic turn” refers to the recent popularity of this concept, which is discussed in an Alasdair MacIntyre book titled After [this concept]. Attaining this concept requires achieving a “golden mean” between excess and deficiency, according to Aristotle’s Nicomachean Ethics. Deontology and utilitarianism are often contrasted with, for 10 points, an ethical approach named for what type of positive character trait?
ANSWER: virtues [accept virtue ethics or variety of excellence; accept arete until “aretaic” is read]
Thanks for posting this! I buzzed on the first line here with "rational principle" since I read this passage from Nicomachean Ethics for a class this semester. In the text, Aristotle doesn't define virtue as the function of man, but rather states that man's virtue lies in performing his function with excellence and goes on to define man's function as use of rational principle. The exact quote from my translation is "Let us exclude, therefore, the life of nutrition and growth. Next there would be a life of perception, but it also seems to be common even to the horse, the ox, and every animal. There remains, then, an active life of the element that has a rational principle."
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Re: 2020 ACF Winter - Specific Question Discussion

Post by cwasims »

db0wman wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 12:28 am
cwasims wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 11:56 pm
db0wman wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 10:12 pm Could I see the tossup on virtue in packet J? thanks!
Packet* J wrote: After the “life of growth” and “life of perception” are ruled out in one text, this concept is discussed as a possible function for man. A book titled for this concept claims that the “state of grave disorder” of its author’s field is due to a focus on emotivism instead of teleology. One thinker implicitly contrasted craft expertise with four “intellectual” examples of this concept. The “aretaic turn” refers to the recent popularity of this concept, which is discussed in an Alasdair MacIntyre book titled After [this concept]. Attaining this concept requires achieving a “golden mean” between excess and deficiency, according to Aristotle’s Nicomachean Ethics. Deontology and utilitarianism are often contrasted with, for 10 points, an ethical approach named for what type of positive character trait?
ANSWER: virtues [accept virtue ethics or variety of excellence; accept arete until “aretaic” is read]
Thanks for posting this! I buzzed on the first line here with "rational principle" since I read this passage from Nicomachean Ethics for a class this semester. In the text, Aristotle doesn't define virtue as the function of man, but rather states that man's virtue lies in performing his function with excellence and goes on to define man's function as use of rational principle. The exact quote from my translation is "Let us exclude, therefore, the life of nutrition and growth. Next there would be a life of perception, but it also seems to be common even to the horse, the ox, and every animal. There remains, then, an active life of the element that has a rational principle."
Very sorry about that - re-reading the passage, I guess when I was writing I inadvertently skipped to the end of the paragraph where Aristotle discusses virtue specifically. Your answer was completely correct at that point and I'm sorry you weren't rewarded for your knowledge on this topic.
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Re: 2020 ACF Winter - Specific Question Discussion

Post by Chimango Caracara »

tiwonge wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 11:43 pm
Packet H, Tossup 20 wrote:It’s not war, but Ammon Hennacy’s opposition to this practice led Dorothy Day to argue that Christians should defy it in The Catholic Worker.
This opening clue would have baffled me had I been playing. I know that Dorothy advocated that the Catholic Worker houses not take advantage of the tax-exempt status for nonprofits, but this seemed to be saying that Christians should defy it, and it doesn't make sense to say that Christians should defy being tax-exempt. At the same time, especially when comparing it to war, it makes sense that it's talking about not paying taxes. (I don't know Ammon Hennacy, but I do know that the practice of tax resistance is something that people in this movement might do.) So, I couldn't decide if it was talking about paying taxes or not paying taxes. I don't know if I would have buzzed in at this point with taxes or not, because I wasn't sure which way it was going, and wouldn't have known what to do if prompted. I probably would finally have figured out that it was just talking about tax in general on the third clue (The second clue was about the widow's mite, and I don't associate the widow's mite with taxes, since she's donating to the temple, not giving to the state.) Don't get me wrong, I loved the Catholic Worker opening clue, but it wasn't as helpful as it could have been. I don't know if using the word "resistance" instead of "opposition" would have been too much of a giveaway, but it probably would have clarified it for me.
I'm sorry that this clue was confusing. It was specifically supposed to be about pacifist Catholic Worker opposition to paying taxes that supported wars such as the Vietnam War; I mentioned Hennacy to contextualize the rest of the clue because I think he is probably best known for his tax resistance, although since Dorothy Day is far more famous I can see how it could be confusing if you haven't heard of him.

This tossup did conflate tribute/tithe given to churches/temples and taxation rendered to the state; both types of payment were explicitly accepted in the answerline.
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Re: 2020 ACF Winter - Specific Question Discussion

Post by ganman0305 »

warum wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 9:17 pm One of the early clues in the Architecture tossup on "opera houses" referred to the facade of a building in Valencia designed by Santiago Calatrava. I found this frustrating because Calatrava also designed a science museum in the same large cultural complex in Valencia. I negged with "museum" because I thought of that building immediately and didn't remember the opera house at the same time. Given the details about the facade, the clue was definitely uniquely identifying, but it still seemed to punish me for having real knowledge to a certain extent.
Damn! Good Calatrava knowledge! I did not know that the opera house was located in a complex with other buildings by him - I should have added in a "It's not..." to narrow the scope of that clue. I apologize for punishing you for this!
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Re: 2020 ACF Winter - Specific Question Discussion

Post by Bhagwan Shammbhagwan »

Could I see the bonus on Brahmans whose first part was flowers? The middle part confused us a lot - my teammates and I were under the impression that upanayana represent part of the transition to becoming a Brahmin, and we were quite confused when the answer was schooling. I'm not sure that the clue is specific enough to narrow it down to schooling, and the prompt on "coming of age" seems a bit misleading and could have maybe used some direction.

Otherwise, we greatly enjoyed the increased content of East and South Asian religion in the set.
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Re: 2020 ACF Winter - Specific Question Discussion

Post by warum »

If I remember correctly, the tossup on "sepoys" mentioned "blowing from a gun" in the first or second clue. I think that clue should have been moved later in the question, since the Indian Sepoy Mutiny of 1857 is the most famous historical period for use of that method of execution. It's possible that I'm misjudging how widely known that clue is, though.
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Re: 2020 ACF Winter - Specific Question Discussion

Post by Grace »

cwasims wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 1:15 am
db0wman wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 12:28 am
cwasims wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 11:56 pm
db0wman wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 10:12 pm Could I see the tossup on virtue in packet J? thanks!
Packet* J wrote: After the “life of growth” and “life of perception” are ruled out in one text, this concept is discussed as a possible function for man. A book titled for this concept claims that the “state of grave disorder” of its author’s field is due to a focus on emotivism instead of teleology. One thinker implicitly contrasted craft expertise with four “intellectual” examples of this concept. The “aretaic turn” refers to the recent popularity of this concept, which is discussed in an Alasdair MacIntyre book titled After [this concept]. Attaining this concept requires achieving a “golden mean” between excess and deficiency, according to Aristotle’s Nicomachean Ethics. Deontology and utilitarianism are often contrasted with, for 10 points, an ethical approach named for what type of positive character trait?
ANSWER: virtues [accept virtue ethics or variety of excellence; accept arete until “aretaic” is read]
Thanks for posting this! I buzzed on the first line here with "rational principle" since I read this passage from Nicomachean Ethics for a class this semester. In the text, Aristotle doesn't define virtue as the function of man, but rather states that man's virtue lies in performing his function with excellence and goes on to define man's function as use of rational principle. The exact quote from my translation is "Let us exclude, therefore, the life of nutrition and growth. Next there would be a life of perception, but it also seems to be common even to the horse, the ox, and every animal. There remains, then, an active life of the element that has a rational principle."
Very sorry about that - re-reading the passage, I guess when I was writing I inadvertently skipped to the end of the paragraph where Aristotle discusses virtue specifically. Your answer was completely correct at that point and I'm sorry you weren't rewarded for your knowledge on this topic.
Thank you for clarifying here! I also buzzed in (later in the question, but thinking about that first clue) with “life of contemplation,” because that’s how it was translated in my long-ago read of Nichomachaen Ethics. I do like the idea of the tossup, though, and I knew in my heart even as I buzzed that surely “contemplation” was not a tossup answerline at the Winter level, haha.
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Re: 2020 ACF Winter - Specific Question Discussion

Post by Jack »

Could I see the tossup on the 1960s? I believe it was just our moderator accidentally skipping over parts of the question (they stopped and then continued to read during the first line), but, from what they read, the first line seemed to be extremely ambiguous and not uniquely identifying.
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Re: 2020 ACF Winter - Specific Question Discussion

Post by Iain.Carpenter »

I found the Pointillism tossup super confusing given the pronoun "this style." I buzzed on the description of the Portrait of Felix Feneon with the answer portrait, because when I hear the phrase "this style" I think of traditional forms like portraiture, abstraction, history paintings, or nudes rather than something like Impressionism, Symbolism, Cubism, or Fauvism that is better indicated by "this genre" or "this movement." I think that Pointillism falls into the latter category and would clear up that confusion. At the very least, I think portraits should be promptable on that specific clue.
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Re: 2020 ACF Winter - Specific Question Discussion

Post by SortesVirgilianae »

reindeer wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 9:51 pm Also, bonus C.12 appeared to be primarily themed around rape in ancient Rome. To me this is a surprising and, honestly, dubious choice so I'm curious--what was the process that led to its inclusion? Was this a considered decision, or an oversight, or something else?
Agreed re bonus C.12 - especially given that the lead-in focused on child rape, I found this bonus set deeply unpleasant to listen to and be forced to play. I similarly would like to know what justified its inclusion, and I think that (even if we assume that the subject matter was interesting and important enough to justify it) there must have been more tasteful ways to frame it.

On a different note, I would like to see the tossup on Poland from (I think) either current events or recent history. As far as I remember, this tossup began "A three-time chess world champion from this country..." I found this deeply confusing, as there has never been a chess world champion (three-time or otherwise) from Poland.
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Re: 2020 ACF Winter - Specific Question Discussion

Post by Chimango Caracara »

Bhagwan Shammbhagwan wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 12:08 pm Could I see the bonus on Brahmans whose first part was flowers? The middle part confused us a lot - my teammates and I were under the impression that upanayana represent part of the transition to becoming a Brahmin, and we were quite confused when the answer was schooling. I'm not sure that the clue is specific enough to narrow it down to schooling, and the prompt on "coming of age" seems a bit misleading and could have maybe used some direction.

Otherwise, we greatly enjoyed the increased content of East and South Asian religion in the set.
ACF Winter wrote: 9. The ten sacred Dasapushpam (“da-sa-PUSH-pum”) and other varieties of these objects are formed into rangoli called pookkalam for the Ōṇaṁ (“oh-nahm”) festival. For 10 points each:
[10] Name these objects that include the palash used to create colored dyes for Holi. Prasāda (“pra-SOD”) features the distribution of food, water, and powder along with these objects, which are tossed as pūjā (“POO-jah”) offerings in pushpānjali (“push-PON-juh-lee”).
ANSWER: flowers [accept petals or blossoms or garlands or similar; accept specific kinds of flowers; prompt on plants]
[10] Initiates may wear flower garlands while becoming one of these people in the upanayana (“oo-puh-NAY-uh-nuh”), or sacred thread ceremony. The Vidyāraṃbhaṃ (“vid-YAH-rum-bum”) and Samāvartana sanskāra bookend this role, corresponding to the Brahmacharya ashrama.
ANSWER: student [or pupil or similar; accept entering a guru’s school or getting an education or equivalents; prompt on coming of age]
[10] In the guru–shishya system, students lived at gurukulam while studying these scriptures along with topics like mathematics and astronomy. These four scriptures include the magical Atharva and the ancient Rig.
ANSWER: Vedas [accept the Rigveda or Atharvaveda; accept the Vedic age or Vedic period]
<Religion>
This question seems to have caused problems for many people, so I'm sorry about that. Originally, that bonus part said "this stage of life" explicitly, but playtesters thought it made more sense to say "these people." The question was supposed to be asking what role people serve in in the Brahmacharya stage of the four-stage ashrama system.
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Re: 2020 ACF Winter - Specific Question Discussion

Post by naan/steak-holding toll »

To avoid belaboring the "space" tossup elsewhere:
cwasims wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 4:19 pm
Iain.Carpenter wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:43 pm
naan/steak-holding toll wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 2:57 am For the "space" tossup, I probably should have figured out that because the question was in the philosophy distribution - answers like "reference frame" wouldn't really make sense and "relative position / location" was probably not likely to be what it was going for. Still, since I'm mainly familiar with the bucket argument, etc. from something my AP physics teacher brought up when discussing different concepts of relativity, it was rather hard to make that leap from the clue given, as opposed to realize it was Newton's conception of absolute space (there probably was some kind of wording there to pin that down).
I think this is exacerbated by the fact that in the Principia, Newton refers to “motion relative to the fixed stars” as he believed the fixed stars were at rest with respect to absolute space causing me to confusedly neg with stars once the tossup mentioned Newton’s conception of “motion relative to this concept” or however the tossup worded it.
For reference, this is the tossup:
Pack A wrote: The claim that this concept is the “sensorium of God” was attacked as heretical because it implied that the essence of God contains parts. Immanuel Kant claimed that this concept’s corresponding mathematical science is the [emphasize] analogue of mechanics, not arithmetic, as part of an argument that this concept is a pure form of “outer intuition,” in contrast to an alphabetically-later counterpart. In a lengthy correspondence, the “absolute” and “relational” theories of this concept were defended, respectively, by Samuel Clarke and Gottfried Leibniz. This concept makes up three-quarters of the “block universe.” Isaac Newton used a “bucket argument” to claim that all motion occurs relative to a rigid Euclidean example of this concept. For 10 points, name this concept that is united with time in special relativity.
ANSWER: space [prompt on geometry; prompt on answers including space and time by asking “which of those concepts?”]
Being not extremely well-versed in physics myself, I largely relied on the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy entry on this topic (https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/spac ... heories/#4). I think in retrospect I focused a bit too much on what people might say in the earlier clues than in the later ones - there probably should've been some kind of prompt on "reference frame" or the like. I don't think "fixed stars" or the like is acceptable at that point because it seems that the bucket argument is about absolute space generally and not about fixed stars specifically, at least based on what the SEP and other articles say (obviously, stars are also neither a "concept" nor remotely correct for any of the previous clues). Ideally, though, I would've foreseen some of these potential confusions and re-worded that clue somewhat.
I think this is right - the first two sentences look good, but several of the other clues suggest multiple answers. Looking at the Leibniz clue, it seems like "motion" is still a reasonable answer - looking at the SEP article quoted:
SEP wrote:Newton's proposal for understanding motion solves the problems that he posed for Descartes, and provides an interpretation of the concepts of constant motion and acceleration that appear in his laws of motion. However, it suffers from two notable interpretational problems, both of which were pressed forcefully by Leibniz (in the Leibniz-Clarke Correspondence, 1715–1716) — which is not to say that Leibniz himself offered a superior account of motion (see below). (Of course, there are other features of Newton's proposal that turned out to be empirically inadequate, and are rejected by in relativity theory: Newton's account violates the relativity of simultaneity and postulates a non-dynamical spacetime structure.) First, according to this account, absolute velocity is a well-defined quantity: more simply, the absolute speed of a body is the rate of change of its position relative to an arbitrary point of absolute space.
The "block universe" clue also strikes me as misleading - by "makes up three-quarters" I take it that you mean that it's three of four dimensions, but in the sense of physics/mathematics this statement doesn't make much sense IMO.

To take away a constructive conclusion - I think Chris was right when he said it was a bit too ambitious. In general, writers need to be really careful when wading into realms where multiple disciplines overlap and be extremely careful to make sure you're not confusing people who are coming at the subject from a totally different angle than yourself - reading a writer's mind is very challenging.
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Re: 2020 ACF Winter - Specific Question Discussion

Post by Chimango Caracara »

reindeer wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 9:51 pm I enjoyed reading this set! There were a lot more good ideas than I could list, but I remember particularly enjoying the bonus on fantasy coffins and the tossup on creoles.
Bonus H.9 wrote:[10] In the guru–shishya system, students lived at gurukulam while supposedly using these scriptures to learn mathematics and astronomy. These four scriptures include the magical Atharva and the ancient Rig.
ANSWER: Vedas
What's "supposedly" doing here? I don't actually know anything about this, but a quick search indicates that the guru-shishya system is/was intended to be a serious learning tradition, so it seems odd to editorialize in this way.
I'm glad you liked the creoles question and the Ghanaian art bonus (I wrote it initially but Chandler changed the focus to include fantasy coffins)!

I have changed the wording of the Vedas bonus part; I understand that this was a serious educational system and I'm sorry that it sounded dismissive. I included the word "supposedly" as a qualification because some modern people (such as Bharati Krishna Tirtha) have traced mathematical knowledge to the Vedas in ways that are not really justified (similar to creationist interpretations of the Bible that reject evolution).
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Re: 2020 ACF Winter - Specific Question Discussion

Post by Lake Winnipesaukee Mystery Stone »

I thought almost all the history in this tournament was excellent, with some interesting lead ins and well organised clue orders - I will be pointing new writers towards some questions as 'how to do it' in the future.

Only big erratum I spotted was this question:
18. Members of this body were required to pass the dokimasia test to determine if they were fit for office. For 10 points each:

[10] Name this democratic council created to replace the more aristocratic gerousia. Despite its importance, it never eclipsed the Areopagus in the city in which it started.

ANSWER: boule [accept Council of 400 or Council of 500]

[10] This man expanded the number of people in the boule to 500 from the old 400 determined by Solon. This “father of democracy” is most often credited with introducing the practice of ostracism.

ANSWER: Cleisthenes [or Kleisthénis]

[10] Cleisthenes developed his political ideas as leader of this city-state. Cleisthenes was the uncle of Agariste, mother to Pericles, a future leader of this city.

ANSWER: Athens [or Athínai]

<Other History>
The first part of this question is completely mangled history. Unless I am very much mistaken, the only Athenian gerousia so named is established at the end of the Antonine period. Indeed, to quote the Oxford Classical Dictionary
OCD wrote:Probably the council was called simply boulē (‘council’) at first, and was named after the hill when a second council from which it had to be distinguished was created, probably by Solon.
Perhaps more importantly, the dokimasia is a general process that applied to generals, archons, members of the council and to the law courts (within Athens, the term can be even broader outside of Athens). Boulai are attested, by my count in the index of the Inventory of Archaic and Classic Poleis, at least 95 different Greek cities, so writing as if it is an Athenian-exclusive institution is wild. As to what is meant by 'eclipsing the Areopagus', I think most historians (though not all) would say that from ~460 to the middle of the 4th century the Areopagus *is* eclipsed by the boule and the strategoi.
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Re: 2020 ACF Winter - Specific Question Discussion

Post by Zealots of Stockholm »

Iain.Carpenter wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:57 pm I found the Pointillism tossup super confusing given the pronoun "this style." I buzzed on the description of the Portrait of Felix Feneon with the answer portrait, because when I hear the phrase "this style" I think of traditional forms like portraiture, abstraction, history paintings, or nudes rather than something like Impressionism, Symbolism, Cubism, or Fauvism that is better indicated by "this genre" or "this movement." I think that Pointillism falls into the latter category and would clear up that confusion. At the very least, I think portraits should be promptable on that specific clue.
I do sympathize with your neg here, at least a bit, and think adding a prompt on portrait for that line specifically might be reasonable (the actual best solution here is to start the second sentence with "a portrait in this artistic style"). However, I do believe that "artistic style" is the best identifier for a tossup on Pointillism. "This genre" would definitely not be appropriate, as past usages of that identifier in art questions have referred to things like portraiture, landscapes, still lifes, etc. Also, calling Pointillism a "movement" would be inaccurate, at least to the best of my knowledge. Pointillism/DivIsionism is simply a style that artists from the Neo-Impressionist movement used to paint, so to say this movement the correct answer would have been Neo-Impressionism, which seems a bit insane to tossup/require players to say at this level. I am sorry this question confused you but I do think "artistic style" is the best identifier to use for this tossup.
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Re: 2020 ACF Winter - Specific Question Discussion

Post by Perturbed Secretary Bird »

I also have issues with the 1960s question- there was a very notable Stolen Generation in Australia, and that occurred from the 1930's-70's I believe. It was not a unique clue at all.

I also negged the Calatrava with "museum" :'( but that was more on me for not remembering which building's facade was falling off.

Overall, though, I enjoyed the set a lot! I thought it had a nice amount of diversity and was well-written.
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Re: 2020 ACF Winter - Specific Question Discussion

Post by Quinctilius Varus »

reindeer wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 9:51 pm Also, bonus C.12 appeared to be primarily themed around rape in ancient Rome. To me this is a surprising and, honestly, dubious choice so I'm curious--what was the process that led to its inclusion? Was this a considered decision, or an oversight, or something else?
The horrific treatment of actresses in ancient Rome, and the attempt by one to accuse a prominent politician of sexual assault, is historically significant. However, given the sensitive topics dealt with in the question, this bonus could definitely have been handled with more tact, and I sincerely apologize if the treatment of the subject matter made anyone uncomfortable.
Jack wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:24 pm Could I see the tossup on the 1960s? I believe it was just our moderator accidentally skipping over parts of the question (they stopped and then continued to read during the first line), but, from what they read, the first line seemed to be extremely ambiguous and not uniquely identifying.
In this decade, thousands of Indigenous children were “scooped” from their homes and adopted by white families. Near this decade’s beginning, doctors in Saskatchewan went on strike after universal health care was introduced. Jean Lesage’s election as a member of the Liberal Party at the beginning of this decade ushered in the Quiet Revolution. During this decade, Canada adopted the maple leaf flag design and celebrated its centennial under Lester Pearson. In this decade, the statement “Vive le Québec libre!” was made by Charles de Gaulle at the World Expo in Montreal. Near the end of this decade, Pierre Trudeau first became Prime Minister. For 10 points, name this decade when many draft dodgers fled to Canada to avoid serving in the Vietnam War.
ANSWER: 1960s [or the Sixties]
<Other History>

The leadin refers to the "Sixties Scoop." The sentence should have specified that it happened in Canada to provide more context. Sorry about that!
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Re: 2020 ACF Winter - Specific Question Discussion

Post by naan/steak-holding toll »

Lake Winnipesaukee Mystery Stone wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:03 pm I thought almost all the history in this tournament was excellent, with some interesting lead ins and well organised clue orders - I will be pointing new writers towards some questions as 'how to do it' in the future.

Only big erratum I spotted was this question:
18. Members of this body were required to pass the dokimasia test to determine if they were fit for office. For 10 points each:

[10] Name this democratic council created to replace the more aristocratic gerousia. Despite its importance, it never eclipsed the Areopagus in the city in which it started.

ANSWER: boule [accept Council of 400 or Council of 500]

[10] This man expanded the number of people in the boule to 500 from the old 400 determined by Solon. This “father of democracy” is most often credited with introducing the practice of ostracism.

ANSWER: Cleisthenes [or Kleisthénis]

[10] Cleisthenes developed his political ideas as leader of this city-state. Cleisthenes was the uncle of Agariste, mother to Pericles, a future leader of this city.

ANSWER: Athens [or Athínai]

<Other History>
The first part of this question is completely mangled history. Unless I am very much mistaken, the only Athenian gerousia so named is established at the end of the Antonine period. Indeed, to quote the Oxford Classical Dictionary
OCD wrote:Probably the council was called simply boulē (‘council’) at first, and was named after the hill when a second council from which it had to be distinguished was created, probably by Solon.
Perhaps more importantly, the dokimasia is a general process that applied to generals, archons, members of the council and to the law courts (within Athens, the term can be even broader outside of Athens). Boulai are attested, by my count in the index of the Inventory of Archaic and Classic Poleis, at least 95 different Greek cities, so writing as if it is an Athenian-exclusive institution is wild. As to what is meant by 'eclipsing the Areopagus', I think most historians (though not all) would say that from ~460 to the middle of the 4th century the Areopagus *is* eclipsed by the boule and the strategoi.
Yeah, I was also deeply confused by this bonus lead-in - the fact that the question mentioned a gerousia made me think this was looking for some kind of Spartan assembly. This was further reinforced by the question stating that the body in question never eclipsed the Areopagus, as the major accomplishment of Ephialtes was to do exactly that, so I stuck with the notion that this was some kind of Spartan body I'd never heard of.

Tl;dr - interpretive clues are good but they should be phrased very carefully and with plenty of contextual information.
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Re: 2020 ACF Winter - Specific Question Discussion

Post by whatamidoinghere »

I'd like to see the tossup on "Twins" in literature as well as the bonus that talked about Serge Gainsbourg (not sure which packet this was in). Both felt like very interesting topics and I was pretty happy to hear them in the set.

I also felt like the enclosure tossup was pretty hard for something around 2 dot level but I am also not very well versed in that time period of history.

I was also curious as to whether the "Light" question in science was physics, chemistry, or other science.
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Re: 2020 ACF Winter - Specific Question Discussion

Post by naan/steak-holding toll »

whatamidoinghere wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 9:07 pm I'd like to see the tossup on "Twins" in literature as well as the bonus that talked about Serge Gainsbourg (not sure which packet this was in). Both felt like very interesting topics and I was pretty happy to hear them in the set.

I also felt like the enclosure tossup was pretty hard for something around 2 dot level but I am also not very well versed in that time period of history.

I was also curious as to whether the "Light" question in science was physics, chemistry, or other science.
Not sure if AP Euro curriculum has changed, but we covered it in AP Euro - I think it's plenty fine for a tossup at this level.
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Re: 2020 ACF Winter - Specific Question Discussion

Post by Chimango Caracara »

whatamidoinghere wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 9:07 pm I was also curious as to whether the "Light" question in science was physics, chemistry, or other science.
Chemistry.
whatamidoinghere wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 10:03 pm I greatly enjoyed the vast majority of the questions in this set, but I was a little confused as to why there wasn't a prompt on either aldose or ketose on the bonus part about reducing sugars, since from what I heard the bonus part discussed free carbonyl groups, which both aldoses and ketoses have.
I'm sorry; those should have been prompted.
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Re: 2020 ACF Winter - Specific Question Discussion

Post by warum »

Some questions that I remember really enjoying were:
Wolves tossup
Turkey in opera tossup
Supermodels bonus
Paraphilias bonus

I remember being confused that tossup on "tragedy of the commons" used "this model" as a pronoun. I've always thought of the tragedy of the commons being more of a general scenario, which could be formally modeled in multiple ways.
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Re: 2020 ACF Winter - Specific Question Discussion

Post by Chimango Caracara »

warum wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 11:44 am I remember being confused that tossup on "tragedy of the commons" used "this model" as a pronoun. I've always thought of the tragedy of the commons being more of a general scenario, which could be formally modeled in multiple ways.
Sorry about that, while the tossup generally called it a "concept," there was one line that called it an "influential model" (in quotes) because the Elinor Ostrom book discusses it in a section entitled "Three Influential Models," so I thought that phrasing might be helpful for people who had read that book.
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Re: 2020 ACF Winter - Specific Question Discussion

Post by warum »

Chimango Caracara wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 12:13 pm Sorry about that, while the tossup generally called it a "concept," there was one line that called it an "influential model" (in quotes) because the Elinor Ostrom book discusses it in a section entitled "Three Influential Models," so I thought that phrasing might be helpful for people who had read that book.
That sounds like a perfectly reasonable phrasing now that you've described the context. But I guess this is a case in which the use of quotes in the written question wasn't recognizable in the Discord audio.
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Re: 2020 ACF Winter - Specific Question Discussion

Post by TaylorH »

This set was very good and I enjoyed nearly all of the questions from content and style perspectives. I jotted down some notes on questions that stood out to me, either for positive or negative reasons:
-The question on "The Idiot" felt like something of a rehash of of the same conceit of a question at Sun God, though this question probably isn't as memorable to most people.
-The "space" phil TU dropped Kant + relational/absolute kind of early, the later clues feel harder to me than connecting those ideas.
-The bonus about Sri Lanka felt longer than most and probably could due without a line or two of clues.
-Cluing the Bridge of the Drina for "Bosnia" felt a little hosey since its written in Serbo-Croatian, which I bet is the only thing most player know about it at least for a lit perspective. My teammate negged with Serbia on this clue and I would have too.
-The Chaucer question felt a little harder than most other lit questions.
-The salt science question was very good and interesting.
-The bonus on patent law was great, as were the rest of the more law oriented SS questions.
-I really liked the class in linguistic question, though I suspect it played hard.
-The prohibition bonus felt harder than most other AmHist.
-Loved the "7" in music TU. Future writers should look to this question as an exemplary music theory TU, which we should have more of.
-The opera house TU felt quite hard for the first half.
-Really liked the blue jeans question.
-Really liked the French pop music question.
I didn't like the m/h part(?) on "objections" in philosophy. Having the come up with that word didn't feel exactly fair, since plenty of people are familiar the idea, but coming up with that exact word felt forced.
-Loved the planting trees TU
-"Twins" could have used a directed prompt on "siblings" or "brother/sister". Something like "what more specific relation do they have?"
-I liked the CT geography question. I felt like it had a nice cultural theme.
-A fluid mechanic bonus had parts on both "laminar" and "turbulent" which are both quite fine as easy parts imo.
-The Langston Hughes question felt pretty easy compared to most of the other poetry bonuses.
-the TU on Dept of Transportation was cool
-The TU on pharaohs was almost painfully transparent from context clues
-I think the question on sarcophagi could have used a prompt on "tombs"
-To my knowledge, the kala pani taboo is not unique to sepoys. In the context I learned about the taboo it was applied to the Indian diaspora in general, causing me to enter a prompt trains on Hindus->Indian people->?. I think a directed prompt here could have helped.
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Re: 2020 ACF Winter - Specific Question Discussion

Post by jmarvin_ »

TaylorH wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 6:17 pm -Cluing the Bridge of the Drina for "Bosnia" felt a little hosey since its written in Serbo-Croatian, which I bet is the only thing most player know about it at least for a lit perspective. My teammate negged with Serbia on this clue and I would have too.
I think this specific point is totally misguided, having spent some time in Bosnia and having read Bridge on the Drina. I can't speak to whether the question played well past the start, since I got it at the mention of the Jajce waterfalls as I have literally been there (quite a nice place). I can, however, say that if one was "hosed" by Bridge on the Drina, it's definitely one's own fault. That novel is indeed written in Serbo-Croatian... which is the language spoken in Bosnia.* I'm not sure why one would come to the conclusion that the novel must be Serbian if it is written in Serbo-Croatian, seeing as there are three other countries that use the language (including Croatia in the language's name). The fact that the novel is Bosnian is by far the most significant and obvious thing about it; I would argue much more so than the language it's written in. In Bosnia, they consider Bridge on the Drina to be their national epic. I visited Andrić's house, which is preserved as a museum in memory of the nation's greatest author. The title bridge is a real Ottoman bridge in east Bosnia over the title river, which is a tourist destination. There's even a little tourist town near the bridge called "Andrićgrad." If one knows practically anything about the novel other than the language it's written in, one knows it's from Bosnia, and even with just the language to work from, you've still narrowed to four options and not to one!

Granted, I have not seen the whole question myself, so if there was something about the way the novel's title was dropped that hosed toward Serbia, feel free to correct me.

* Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian, and Montenegrin are a strictly mutually intelligible dialect continuum that are only considered separate languages for political reasons, and because Serbs/Serbians and some Montenegrins as groups prefer to use Cyrillic. This political situation leads to some funny situations, like how road signs in Bosnia are legally required to be printed in "all three national languages," which usually leads to the sign saying exactly the same thing three times in a row down to the letter, except one is in Cyrillic.
Last edited by jmarvin_ on Wed Nov 11, 2020 12:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 2020 ACF Winter - Specific Question Discussion

Post by naan/steak-holding toll »

Yeah, I completely agree with John Marvin here. The author is from Bosnia and I'm pretty sure that's significant from a "lit perspective" - even though, frankly, this is a geography tossup and I don't think we need to care about the "lit perspective" that much as it's basically a way of talking about the Drina river and a book that Bosnians care a lot about which is named for an important Bosnian landmark.
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Re: 2020 ACF Winter - Specific Question Discussion

Post by ryanrosenberg »

John said everything I would've, except I haven't been to Andrić's house.
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Re: 2020 ACF Winter - Specific Question Discussion

Post by TaylorH »

jmarvin_ wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 9:04 pm
TaylorH wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 6:17 pm -Cluing the Bridge of the Drina for "Bosnia" felt a little hosey since its written in Serbo-Croatian, which I bet is the only thing most player know about it at least for a lit perspective. My teammate negged with Serbia on this clue and I would have too.
I think this specific point is totally misguided, having spent some time in Bosnia and having read Bridge on the Drina. I can't speak to whether the question played well past the start, since I got it at the mention of the Jajce waterfalls as I have literally been there (quite a nice place). I can, however, say that if one was "hosed" by Bridge on the Drina, it's definitely one's own fault. That novel is indeed written in Serbo-Croatian... which is the language spoken in Bosnia.* I'm not sure why one would come to the conclusion that the novel must be Serbian if it is written in Serbo-Croatian, seeing as there are three other countries that use the language (including Croatia in the language's name). The fact that the novel is Bosnian is by far the most significant and obvious thing about it; I would argue much more so than the language it's written in. In Bosnia, they consider Bridge on the Drina to be their national epic. I visited Andrić's house, which is preserved as a museum in memory of the nation's greatest author. The title bridge is a real Ottoman bridge in east Bosnia over the title river, which is a tourist destination. There's even a little tourist town near the bridge called "Andrićgrad." If one knows practically anything about the novel other than the language it's written in, one knows it's from Bosnia, and even with just the language to work from, you've still narrowed to four options and not to one!

Granted, I have not seen the whole question myself, so if there was something about the way the novel's title was dropped that hosed toward Serbia, feel free to correct me.

* Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian, and Montenegrin are a strictly mutually intelligible dialect continuum that are only considered separate languages for political reasons, and because Serbs/Serbians and some Montenegrins as groups prefer to use Cyrillic. This political situation leads to some funny situations, like how road signs in Bosnia are legally required to be printed in "all three national languages," which usually leads to the sign saying exactly the same thing three times in a row down to the letter, except one is in Cyrillic.
Thanks, I definitely will not forget Andrić''s country of origin ever again. For whatever reason I encoded him as Serbian when I superficially learned about this novel years ago.
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Re: 2020 ACF Winter - Specific Question Discussion

Post by ganman0305 »

TaylorH wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 6:17 pm -To my knowledge, the kala pani taboo is not unique to sepoys. In the context I learned about the taboo it was applied to the Indian diaspora in general, causing me to enter a prompt trains on Hindus->Indian people->?. I think a directed prompt here could have helped.
Yeah this was definitely the one question of the tournament where I thought "this is a really cool idea, but perhaps will have some trouble with the answerline." I definitely should have added a directed prompt in there, I apologize for the confusion.
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Re: 2020 ACF Winter - Specific Question Discussion

Post by Chimango Caracara »

TaylorH wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 6:17 pm -The prohibition bonus felt harder than most other AmHist.

-I think the question on sarcophagi could have used a prompt on "tombs"
I'm glad you enjoyed many of the questions you mentioned!

The Prohibition bonus originally specified that Meyer Lansky was a leader of the Jewish mob, but I removed that because playtesters thought it was a bit easy for a hard part. That may have made it a bit hard, sorry.

Prompting on tombs is a good idea; sorry that wasn't included.
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Re: 2020 ACF Winter - Specific Question Discussion

Post by cwasims »

TaylorH wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 6:17 pm -The "space" phil TU dropped Kant + relational/absolute kind of early, the later clues feel harder to me than connecting those ideas.
-Loved the "7" in music TU. Future writers should look to this question as an exemplary music theory TU, which we should have more of.
I didn't like the m/h part(?) on "objections" in philosophy. Having the come up with that word didn't feel exactly fair, since plenty of people are familiar the idea, but coming up with that exact word felt forced.
There's been a fair bit of discussion about the space tossup at this point but it certainly seems that a number of players were not getting the early clues - although I think the Kant clues are quite gettable if you're familiar with the arguments in the Transcendental Aesthetic, it's not the first thing someone is likely to learn about Kant and I think it's fine for a long second clue at this difficulty. Similarly, the Leibniz-Clarke correspondences have not come up especially often. I do think the later clues are easier in large part because they require less philosophical background, although of course some of the phrasing seems to have been confusing at times.

I'm glad you like the music theory tossup - I know number-based music theory questions are pretty common, but I tried to explore some other topics in music theory, including cluing from well-known chords and the like, that seem to not appear as often.

I got somewhat mixed opinions on the objections bonus in play-testing, but it is a technical term in philosophy and throughout a number of undergrad courses I have never heard that concept referred to by any other word. Given the importance of objections in the practice of philosophical writing, I decided to keep it - I apologize for the frustration but I do think it's reasonable to ask for the exact term. For reference, it was intended as the medium part of that bonus.
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Re: 2020 ACF Winter - Specific Question Discussion

Post by Bhagwan Shammbhagwan »

In packet I bonus 10, I think "Most Mohammad Khan" should be corrected to "Dost Mohammad Khan."
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Re: 2020 ACF Winter - Specific Question Discussion

Post by eversonrosed »

The extra tossup in Packet F had the answer Scotland, but the second clue was
After an 1850 storm in this countryrevealed a stone village dated to before 2500 BCE, V. Gordon Childe led digs of its “Heart of Neolithic” UNESCOsite that includes a passage grave and chambered cairn illuminated on Midwinter.
The first part of the clue disambiguates it from Ireland, where Newgrange was discovered much earlier than 1850, but Newgrange is the most famous Neolithic passage tomb, and adding an explicit "It's not Ireland, but..." would have been good IMO. (For reference, I negged at the end of that clue with Ireland.)
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Re: 2020 ACF Winter - Specific Question Discussion

Post by modernhemalurgist »

In Packet J, bonus 17, the third part asks for "this 1632 book," referring to the First Folio. I believe the Second Folio was published in 1632, the first was 1623?
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