LIT Mid-Atlantic Mirror @ Discord (9/5/20)

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Borrowing 100,000 Arrows
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Re: LIT Mid-Atlantic Mirror @ Discord (9/5/20)

Post by Borrowing 100,000 Arrows »

Annabelle, I don't think Duke acted malevolently, but I do think that you did act negligently. UMD, like many other teams, are paying entry fees out of pocket during COVID. You're selling a product to the community, and people have a right to complain if there are problems with the product they've paid for. As to Jacob's exam, and your med school interview, we all have shit going on. Hell, I have to give a big colloquium talk about my research tomorrow. As someone who's fucked up badly myself recently (approving a TO mirror without authorization), I know it sucks to receive criticism, but people have a right to be upset and voice their disapproval when they're paying to play your tournament! Just because I'm on a top five team or you're under a lot of stress, doesn't change the fact that I'm allowed to express the dissatisfaction with the product that I paid for with my own money.
Last edited by Borrowing 100,000 Arrows on Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Caleb K.
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Re: LIT Mid-Atlantic Mirror @ Discord (9/5/20)

Post by Cheynem »

I think Annabelle is exactly right in that we need a more organized and set process for handling online cheating accusations (I think the thread Ike started in Collegiate Discussion is a good start).

I understand why Caleb is mad; I would be upset too. I think what is unfortunate about this situation is that in the absence of a lack of organized process, both Annabelle/the other Duke leaders and Caleb might have believed they were doing exactly the right thing. In Caleb's eyes, his post seemed appropriate because nothing appeared to be going on and there wasn't any process apparently in motion. I'm sure the Duke players thought they were acting appropriately in taking their time (again, because there wasn't any set guidelines or process).
Mike Cheyne
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Hot Soup
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Re: LIT Mid-Atlantic Mirror @ Discord (9/5/20)

Post by Hot Soup »

Borrowing 100,000 Arrows wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:32 pm Annabelle, I don't think Duke acted malevolently, but I do think that you did act negligently.
Borrowing 100,000 Arrows earlier in this thread... wrote: I feel like you and Duke *do* have an overt bias in this situation, and that it's very clear cut to any outsider looking in. On the whole, this tournament was a very frustrating experience, not only because it lasted 12 (!!) hours, but because it seemed that there were multiple clear cases of cheating. Given what happened, I feel that Duke should consider partially refunding team's entry fees, and future online tournaments should bar Angikar from competing.
Borrowing 100,000 Arrows earlier in this thread... wrote: ...I only named names because I contacted a member of the writing team about Angikar's cheating, and, based on what I heard from them, I got the general impression that you didn't have any interest in pursuing the matter further. I also got the impression that you weren't going to publicly acknowledge what happened with Princeton either. Online tournaments are already very taxing to play, but the delays and cheating made this tournament especially unenjoyable. The dismissive tone you've used in responding to my very legitimate grievances has been extremely infuriating.
Borrowing 100,000 Arrows earlier in this thread... wrote: Again, because I had heard from others that Duke was simply going to let the results stand without any public announcement about the cheating (which I found extremely shady). Also, I have, fwiw, TD'd a few high school tournaments back in my Oklahoma days so I have some idea what's involved.
As an outside observer reading this thread, it's interesting to see you claim that you don't think Duke acted malevolently after you insinuate multiple times in this very thread that a) Duke is biased in this situation and b) would have not done their due diligence in investigating the cheaters had you not brought it up, despite their immediate insistence that the issues were being addressed. The only indication that anything close to that might be happening is Annabelle's explanation of Angikar's playing style, which she explicitly states is based on her personal experiences and should not dictate the official response.

All the cheating discussion aside, as someone who also had an awful time getting blasted on the forums after a poorly run tournament, I would like to re-emphasize the point some of the other posters made in this thread about the power dynamics between community members and generally being a nicer and more understanding forum poster. We as a community have always had high standards for how tournaments are run, but we are also in an extraordinary (and stressful) time where clubs are expected to meet new challenges such as dealing with online cheaters, discord issues, etc. The least we could do is accept that the tournament organizers are acting in good faith when they say that they are, and learn to be more patient than what we are usually accustomed to for in-person tournaments.

EDIT: typo
Last edited by Hot Soup on Tue Sep 08, 2020 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Paul Lee
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UlyssesInvictus
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Re: LIT Mid-Atlantic Mirror @ Discord (9/5/20)

Post by UlyssesInvictus »

Hot Soup wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 7:37 pm All the cheating discussion aside, as someone who also had an awful time getting blasted on the forums after a poorly run tournament, I would like to re-emphasize the point some of the other posters made in this thread about the power dynamics between community members and generally being a nicer and more understanding forum poster.
This has been brought up several times before, but just because you (not you, Paul, the general "you") are right, doesn't give you the right to put someone else on blast. It may be unfair that someone is incompetent, or stubborn, or ignorant, or, yes, as it might turn out to be, outright malevolent, and you are the one being asked to "tone it down," for lack of a better phrase, but that's life. If someone in my workplace had messed up and then I cc-ed all my co-workers to excoriate the person at fault and demand that they be better, because I demanded it to be so, I would probably be clearing out my desk by Monday. Sure, Quizbowl doesn't have the equivalent of an "HR," but people keep demanding that we act more professionally; this seems like a fine place to start?

Relatedly, many times it has been asked of people, "why did you feel like Quizbowl was not a welcoming place?" And they will often, very often, point to the forum as an example. (I'm not on the Discord(s) as a regular, so I can't comment on whether it's better/worse there.) But as someone who also still remembers viscerally overcoming feelings of not wanting to post as an amateur for similar reasons (eventually my ego and narcissism won out, of course), this thread reminds me a lot of those earlier flame wars.
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Re: LIT Mid-Atlantic Mirror @ Discord (9/5/20)

Post by Ike »

To offer a personal note:

Pursuing your friends and players you respect for cheating is one of the worst experiences I've ever had in quizbowl. To use the vernacular, it fucking sucks, and I had to see a therapist multiple times about it. Honestly, I often doubted whether or not it was "worth it." On top of that, the quizbowl community didn't really give a fuck about how I felt; I can't imagine the level of derision that Duke is going through right now in back channels. I cannot imagine how I would have handled it if I had to address cheating allegations directed at one of my teammates. To be honest, in 2013, given my maturity level at the time, I don't think I would have done any better than Duke; I probably would have handled it worse. I'm on board with the above posters, can we show a little bit more empathy here? Yes, I don't think Duke handled it 100% optimally, no one does, especially since it's new ground. But when we criticize, I think we can do so in a less inflammatory way.
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Re: LIT Mid-Atlantic Mirror @ Discord (9/5/20)

Post by LeoLaw »

As an outsider, I want to add here that TDing and staffing a tournament is a huge time commitment and it does not comes with a lot of "selfish upside". People who volunteer to TD a tournament are doing a great service to their respective circuits. We should treat the TDs and staffers of a tournament nicely even if they made some mistakes.
Leo
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