Results: NAQT Mid-Atlantic at George Mason (2/10/07)

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Results: NAQT Mid-Atlantic at George Mason (2/10/07)

Post by First Chairman »

Preliminary announcement

NAQT has authorized me to announce that George Mason University will host the NAQT Mid-Atlantic Sectionals on Saturday, February 10. The event will take place on the Fairfax campus at a site to be determined.

This event is run as a collaboration with Academic Initiative and the University Scholars Program at George Mason. GMU will not be claiming an automatic bid to ICT.

Current high school students and quiz bowl alumni living in the metro-DC and surrounding areas are extremely welcome to volunteer as moderators or scorekeepers. Please contact Dr. Chuck by email before January 15.
Last edited by First Chairman on Mon Feb 12, 2007 9:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Zip Zap Rap Pants »

Thanks for the early Christmas present, Dr. Chuck :grin:
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Fee schedule

Post by First Chairman »

The fee structure as somewhat stipulated by NAQT:
$125 base fee for first team, $100 for subsequent teams
--$40 discount for NEW SCHOOLS (has not competed/hosted Sectionals in 2005 and/or 2006)
The base fee includes the licensing fee and copying fees for providing each participating school a copy of the question set. (For the record, it costs us $40 for the first team and $35 for each additional team from a school.)

Please declare your team's eligibility for Division I, Division I undergraduate, or Division II upon registration. In fact, please pre-register your teams and buzzer/clocks/staff on the hsqb board, not to my email. (My computer has been glitchy.) There must be a minimum of four teams for each grouping for an appropriate title to be awarded; I have the option to combine the field if there are fewer than four teams in a Division.

As dictated by NAQT rules, a Div I Undergraduate title will be awarded if there is at least one Div I team in the field. Similarly a Div II title will be awarded if there is at least one Div II team in the field. However, trophies will likely be purchased if we fulfill the 4 team minimums for Div I Undergrad and Div II unless otherwise dictated.

Other discounts
--$10 discount for first buzzer, $5 for second and third and fourth....
--$15 discount for using a reader or scorer you bring; as these are
going to be timed rounds with nine-minute halves, having separate
scorers will be essential. If by chance, we have a surplus of staff, we will still recognize your discount, and we'll still probably use you anyway. :)

Checks can be brought to the tournament and made out to ACADEMIC INITIATIVE (I don't have a budget account yet). I'll ask DB for address information as needed.

Individual awards will be awarded based on preliminary round play only. The number of individual awards that will be conferred will be determined by the number of teams in each Division and the budget.

Please don't withdraw prematurely. It stresses all of us tournament organizers unnecessarily. I assume any team that does withdraw early is doing so on good faith, but I will retain the right to pursue the cancellation fee if a withdrawal occurs after February 1.

George Mason University will not be claiming an automatic bid to ICT. We hope to use this experience to help recruit and retain students to form a new team that will compete in the future.
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Post by First Chairman »

If you would like to reserve your spot for the 2007 Mid-Atlantic NAQT SCT, please use this forum to pre-register your team.

For your post, please indicate:
  • If you qualify as a New School (no activity in 2005 or 2006)
    Number of Division I team slots that are not Div I Undergraduate
    Number of Division I Undergraduate slots
    Number of Division II team slots
    Number of buzzers and countdown clocks
    Number of readers, scorers, and gophers
Rosters would be appreciated but not required.

Again, see the first post for instructions on writing your checks and other payments.

On the GMU website, if you require hotels, go to the Visitor Information website to get such information.

On campus, we have two major venues for eating which should be open that day. If you have any questions, please let me know.
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Post by Byko »

To add further information:

1. When you make out your payments, they should be made payable to Academic Initiative, as Tom suggested earlier. If you wish to mail payments, they should go to this address:

David Bykowski
9106-B Town and Country Blvd.
Ellicott City, MD 21043

Again, please make payments out to Academic Initiative, NOT to George Mason University or to me personally.

2. The following is the list of prospective area teams who are NOT eligible for the new program discount because they have competed in or hosted an NAQT Sectional in the last two seasons:

Bucknell
Carnegie Mellon
Case Western
Columbia
Cornell
Delaware
George Washington
Georgetown
Johns Hopkins
Kentucky
Maryland-Baltimore County
Maryland-College Park
North Carolina
North Carolina State
NYU
Penn
Pittsburgh
Princeton
Rochester
Rutgers-New Brunswick
Southern Virginia
Swarthmore
VCU
Villanova
Virginia
Virginia Tech
Last edited by Byko on Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Pre-registration

Post by First Chairman »

Revised list moved to more recent post.
Last edited by First Chairman on Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:57 pm, edited 20 times in total.
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Post by KRaney »

Dr. Chuck,

Drew said he is bringing two buzzer sets from his high school, which brings our total up to five sets (?). I'll email you next week to set up another meeting if that's okay with you!!
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Post by First Chairman »

No problem! Thanks!
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Post by Snoopy17 »

The Academic Competition Organization of Virginia Tech will be bringing 3 Div II teams, 2 or 3 buzzer sets, and one reader.
Thanks,
Sarah Mahood

[Noted in the list above.]
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Maryland (College Park)

Post by theBlue88s »

UMDCP would like to bring the following:

1 Div I (undergraduate) team
1 Div II team

2 buzzers

[ETC: duly noted]
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Post by Zip Zap Rap Pants »

After talking with some parts of my club today, William and Mary will bring:
One D2 team

One buzzer system
One reader/scorer (from CNU, but he's still associated with our club)

We may bring a second D2 team but I'm not sure yet, I'll let you know as soon as possible.

EDIT: Forgot to mention, we're a new team this year, so the discount applies.
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Post by sabine01 »

Tom -

GW: One team, likely DII, but will confirm with Alex.

One buzzer. One reader (myself).

Now that I have U2's "One" stuck in my head....

Best,
Tricia
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Post by First Chairman »

sabine01 wrote: Now that I have U2's "One" stuck in my head....
Interesting... I was thinking "One on One" by Hall and Oates.
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Post by NRScout98 »

UVA will be bringing one div I team, one div II team, and one buzzer. We may be adding another div I, and I'll post back as soon as I hear back about that.

[ETC: done]
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Post by wwellington »

UNC will be bringing one div I (UG) team, and at least one buzzer set (we'll confirm buzzer numbers later).

[ETC: ok.]
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Post by dschafer »

Carnegie Mellon will be bringing a Div. II team, two buzzers and a clock. There is a possibility we will have a Div. I team as well; I'll post again if that is the case.

[ETC: ok]
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Re: Fee schedule

Post by Zip Zap Rap Pants »

E.T. Chuck wrote:Please don't withdraw prematurely. It stresses all of us tournament organizers unnecessarily. I assume any team that does withdraw early is doing so on good faith, but I will retain the right to pursue the cancellation fee if a withdrawal occurs after February 1.
Does this mean the registration deadline is Feb. 1st, or when is it? I kind of want to go ahead and say we'll send two teams since we have 7 people confirmed available as of now, but one of those is through a secondhand source and another is a really flaky guy (to remain anonymous...) even if he says he definitely can go. So I don't want to say today or tomorrow as I'm afraid of that cancellation fee, but is it alright if I let you know late Sunday/early Monday or so?
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Post by NRScout98 »

UVA will be bringing that 2nd Div I team - it'll be Undergrad

[ETC: ok]
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Re: Fee schedule

Post by First Chairman »

Matt Morrison wrote:
E.T. Chuck wrote:Please don't withdraw prematurely. It stresses all of us tournament organizers unnecessarily. I assume any team that does withdraw early is doing so on good faith, but I will retain the right to pursue the cancellation fee if a withdrawal occurs after February 1.
Does this mean the registration deadline is Feb. 1st, or when is it? I kind of want to go ahead and say we'll send two teams since we have 7 people confirmed available as of now, but one of those is through a secondhand source and another is a really flaky guy (to remain anonymous...) even if he says he definitely can go. So I don't want to say today or tomorrow as I'm afraid of that cancellation fee, but is it alright if I let you know late Sunday/early Monday or so?
Yeah, let me know as soon as he decides... then make sure you hold him hostage that weekend so he doesn't wriggle away. :)
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Post by Zip Zap Rap Pants »

Well trust me, this guy isn't worth the trouble of taking hostage, the main thing is I need to find out from other people if they're willing and interested in going too. But my question still stands, when do we need to let you know?
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Post by First Chairman »

How about until Monday late-night? I don't anticipate a huge rush of late registrations, but knowing my schedule and Jessie's it will help quite a bit.
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Post by dschafer »

Carnegie Mellon meets on Monday evening, so if we do end up having that potential Div. I team, I should be able to post it that evening.
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Post by Pistachio »

UPenn would like to bring 1 DII team. (I hope it's not too late to register.)

What is the best way to get from Union Station to George Mason?

[ok]
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Post by Byko »

Not a problem--I think we can get you in the field.

As for help in getting to GMU, I'll leave that Tom.
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Post by Matt Weiner »

Someone from the area should check this but I think it's right, as I've gone to my fair share of DC-area tournaments without a car:

Find the metro stop under Union Station. Get on the red line in the direction of Shady Grove and take it to Metro Center. There, switch to the orange line in the direction of Vienna/Fairfax, and take it all the way to the Vienna/Fairfax station. Leave the station and find the CUE bus, which goes directly to the GMU campus.

The train ticket will be about $2 and the bus will require 75 cents.
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Post by rpurger1 »

Just to clarify, the Johns Hopkins D1 team will be D1 undergrad.
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Post by STPickrell »

The CUE bus first shows up at about 8am and leaves maybe every 25-30 minutes after that. The Orange line starts showing up at 7:28 according to my timetable and leaves maybe every 15-20 minutes after that.

I'm not sure what time Dave and Tom were looking to get rounds started, though.
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Post by z2trillion »

Princeton would like to bring three teams, one div two and two div one (one undergrad). We will also bring one buzzer system.

(edited after i read the instructions)

-Mason Liang

[ok]
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Post by KRaney »

If you are planning to take the CUE bus to our beautiful campus, be sure you get on one of the right ones. There are four buses that leave the metro station, Green 1, Green 2, Gold 1 and Gold 2. Gold 1, Green 1 and Green 2 are the most direct... give or take about a 20 minute bus ride. DON'T GET ON GOLD 2!! It takes a ridiculously long route through Fairfax and finally winds up on campus more than a half hour later. Unfortunately, I've made that mistake.

The CUE bus schedules can be found here: http://www.fairfaxva.gov/CUEBus/CUEBus.asp

Leaving campus, your best bets are Green 1, Green 2 and Gold 2.
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Post by First Chairman »

There is also the Visitor Center GMU site if you want to know more about the campus, including directions and list of nearby hotels.
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Post by The Goffman Prophecies »

Have you secured where exactly on campus the tournament will be taking place?
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Post by First Chairman »

Not yet... harassing the appropriate folks today.
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Post by sabine01 »

Tom -

I just found out two of the team members playing this weekend (we didn't know our exact configuration until this week), actually played in the ICT last year. Will need to change the division of GW's team from DII to DI-UGrad.

Feel free to give me a ring if you have any questions. Still one buzzer. Still me as official mod.

Will need to call Byko as to how to get payment over to him...

Best,
Tricia
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Post by Byko »

For anyone coming to SCT this weekend with money to pay, you have two options:

1. Bring the check with you to the tournament. Checks should be made payable to Academic Initiative.

2. If, for some reason, option #1 will be a problem, you can send a check via USPS mail. Let me know an e-mail address where you can be reached, and I'll give you my address.

If there are other problems regarding payment, please feel free to ask and I'll be happy to work with you.
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Post by dschafer »

Just to confirm, Carnegie Mellon will not be bringing the additional Div. I team I mentioned as a possibility in my original post.
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Post by First Chairman »

dschafer wrote:Just to confirm, Carnegie Mellon will not be bringing the additional Div. I team I mentioned as a possibility in my original post.
Thanks... it's still not listed in the team roll-call post above.
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Last call of teams

Post by First Chairman »

Schools 13, Teams 23
15-16 buzzers. 1 clock (ARGH!), 1-2 reader discounts.
[We're getting more clocks from NAQT, but any additional ones... we need them!]

Carnegie Mellon (D2) with 2 buzzers, 1 clock
George Washington (D1 undergrad) with 1 buzzer, 1 reader
Johns Hopkins (D1 undergrad, D2)
Maryland (D1 undergrad, D2) with 2 buzzers
North Carolina (D1 undergrad) with 1 buzzer
Penn (D2)
Princeton (D1, D1 undergrad, D2) with 1 buzzer
Rutgers New Brunswick (2 D1 open) with 2 buzzers
Villanova (2 D2) with 1 buzzer
Virginia, University of (D1, D1 undergrad, D2) with 1 buzzer (maybe second D1)
Virginia Commonwealth (D1 open) with 1 reader, 1 buzzer
Virginia Tech (3 D2) with 2-3 buzzers, 1 reader?
William & Mary NEW (1 D2) with 1 buzzer

Resorting by Division

Division I: 11 (6 undergraduate, 5 open)
George Washington (undergrad)
Johns Hopkins (undergrad)
Maryland (undergrad)
North Carolina (undergrad)
Princeton (one open, one undergrad)
Rutgers (2 open)
Virginia (one open, one undergrad)
Virginia Commonwealth (open)

Division II: 12
Carnegie Mellon
Johns Hopkins
Maryland
Penn
Princeton
Villanova (2)
Virginia
Virginia Tech (3)
William & Mary

Tournament format schedule proposal:
Division I: Single round robin : 10 games in 11 rounds (1 bye)

Division II: straight-up RR. 11 rounds without bye.

Playoffs ??? Did you say "Playoffs"???
Additional rounds as needed to break ties for championship titles. I mean, sure we can do something, but I want to get some opinion on what to do. NAQT suggests an additional subgroup RR, but 11 is not easily divisible (4,4,3), and I don't like the concept of dividing teams out of contention. On the other hand, yes, you should play these games unless you really are tired and have something to do. Or you may want the unread packets for practice. Practice??? We're talking about Practice.

One alternative is to have additional 5 rounds played among all 6 undergrad teams and the 5 open teams (with one bye), though that leaves no contingency packet, which we really can't afford to have. But just playing 10 games is pretty unsatisfying even though your NAQT minimum is 10 rounds.

I'll check the NAQT t-format guidelines, but I propose if a champion team is declared a winner automatically if it is clear by 2 or more wins over the next-place team. Of course, I don't know whether advantaged finals are recommended practice (Craig?) if a team in championship contention is ahead by 1 game over another team. Certainly in case of a tie, we will play a tiebreaker game... or maybe 2.

Advice or suggestions? You have 12-18 hours.
Last edited by First Chairman on Mon Feb 05, 2007 11:27 pm, edited 10 times in total.
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Post by sabine01 »

Tom -

Per my above post, GW's team is not a Div. 2... it will be a Div. 1 (Undergrad)...

~Tricia


[etc: thanks]
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Reminder: fees

Post by First Chairman »

The fee structure as somewhat stipulated by NAQT:
$125 base fee for first team, $100 for subsequent teams
--$40 discount for NEW SCHOOLS (has not competed/hosted Sectionals in 2005 and/or 2006)
The base fee includes the licensing fee and copying fees for providing each participating school a copy of the question set. (For the record, it costs us $40 for the first team and $35 for each additional team from a school.)

Please declare your team's eligibility for Division I, Division I undergraduate, or Division II upon registration. In fact, please pre-register your teams and buzzer/clocks/staff on the hsqb board, not to my email. (My computer has been glitchy.) There must be a minimum of four teams for each grouping for an appropriate title to be awarded; I have the option to combine the field if there are fewer than four teams in a Division.

As dictated by NAQT rules, a Div I Undergraduate title will be awarded if there is at least one Div I team in the field. Similarly a Div II title will be awarded if there is at least one Div II team in the field. However, trophies will likely be purchased if we fulfill the 4 team minimums for Div I Undergrad and Div II unless otherwise dictated.

Other discounts
--$10 discount for first buzzer, $5 for second and third and fourth....
--$15 discount for using a reader or scorer you bring; as these are
going to be timed rounds with nine-minute halves, having separate
scorers will be essential. If by chance, we have a surplus of staff, we will still recognize your discount, and we'll still probably use you anyway. :)

Checks can be brought to the tournament and made out to ACADEMIC INITIATIVE (I don't have a budget account yet). I'll ask DB for address information as needed.

Individual awards will be awarded based on preliminary round play only. The number of individual awards that will be conferred will be determined by the number of teams in each Division and the budget.

Please don't withdraw prematurely. It stresses all of us tournament organizers unnecessarily. I assume any team that does withdraw early is doing so on good faith, but I will retain the right to pursue the cancellation fee if a withdrawal occurs after February 1.

George Mason University will not be claiming an automatic bid to ICT. We hope to use this experience to help recruit and retain students to form a new team that will compete in the future.
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Re: Last call of teams

Post by Matt Weiner »

E.T. Chuck wrote:Division I: Single round robin : 10 games in 11 rounds (1 bye)
A 10-game tournament is really not sufficient given how short NAQT games are and how much some people have to pay for Sectionals. Given that NAQT is providing 16 packets I suggest that the single round robin be followed by a grouping into tiers of 4, 4, and 3, with a round-robin taking place within each bracket over rounds 12-14. This will give the top two brackets 13 total games and the bottom bracket 12, while leaving a packet for a final if there is still a tie at the top, as well as another packet to play off ties either for entrance into the championship bracket or entrance into the final.

The above is, in fact, the "suggested format" for 11 teams according to NAQT: http://www.naqt.com/format/

BTW my team doesn't own a timer but we'd be willing to find one before the tournament for a $10 discount, since you can get one for $10 and it would thus allow us to help the tournament run smoothly without any net cost. I think other teams might be interested in such an arrangement as well.
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Re: Last call of teams

Post by First Chairman »

Matt Weiner wrote:
E.T. Chuck wrote:Division I: Single round robin : 10 games in 11 rounds (1 bye)
A 10-game tournament is really not sufficient given how short NAQT games are and how much some people have to pay for Sectionals. Given that NAQT is providing 16 packets I suggest that the single round robin be followed by a grouping into tiers of 4, 4, and 3, with a round-robin taking place within each bracket over rounds 12-14. This will give the top two brackets 13 total games and the bottom bracket 12, while leaving a packet for a final if there is still a tie at the top, as well as another packet to play off ties either for entrance into the championship bracket or entrance into the final.

The above is, in fact, the "suggested format" for 11 teams according to NAQT: http://www.naqt.com/format/
Yes, I know that's the suggested format (read my notes under "Playoffs???"), and that's why I'm trying to make sure the post-RR schedule is known and acceptable. I just feel really weird about that division of 3, but oh well. I'm just trying to see if there is any other presumably fairer arrangement. At least before I go into scheduling mode.
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Post by Matt Weiner »

Well, finding a 12th team somewhere would be great since it would solve the second bye problem for the last bracket and eliminate the bye in the initial RR for everyone. I'll see if I can help round anyone up.

Nonetheless it seems like we're sacrificing the good in the pursuit of the perfect if we cancel 2-3 games for everybody in order to avoid scheduling 1 additional bye.
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Post by First Chairman »

Understood and not arguing the point. Just wanting to be sure there isn't some other alternative. I agree that I don't just want to give you guys 10 rounds in D1... ideally want to go for a minimum of 12. A 443 subgroup works... but I just think it's a bit weird to deal with that group of 3.

I'll see if anyone else has an issue with 443 (and we should do 444 in D2 if the staff don't abandon ship).
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Post by Zip Zap Rap Pants »

Yeah I hope we get 14 total rounds in D2 as it would be the most logical and cool thing to do (11 prelims, 3 playoffs).

Anyway, I wasn't sure about our second team, but now it turns out we won't be bringing it as we're at 6 at best now (one of whom has only come to one practice back in late October), so we'll probably have one team of 5. Also, we probably won't have a moderator discount now as transporting him would mean 6 people = 2 drivers, so the gas would cost more than the $15 discount. So yeah, one D2 team with a buzzer discount for us.
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Post by bsmith »

E.T. Chuck wrote:Understood and not arguing the point. Just wanting to be sure there isn't some other alternative. I agree that I don't just want to give you guys 10 rounds in D1... ideally want to go for a minimum of 12. A 443 subgroup works... but I just think it's a bit weird to deal with that group of 3.

I'll see if anyone else has an issue with 443 (and we should do 444 in D2 if the staff don't abandon ship).
I don't wish to be an intruder on how you schedule your tournament, but I had an issue raised when I chose a 4-4-3 split for 11 teams in the 2005 Canadian SCT (mixed of 3 D1, 8 D2). There was no problem with that group of 3, but there was a hypothetical (but realistic) RR scenario of:

1. D1
2. D2 (circle of death with second-place teams)
2. D1
2. D1
5. D2 (one loss behind circle of death)

such that the top D2 team goes unchallenged in the playoffs for the D2 title. A similar situation may arise of 1 UG team amongst 3 open teams in the top bracket. Thankfully, in my case 2 D2 teams made the top bracket and there were no problems (it was proposed that should it happen, there would be a 3-4-4 split with all the D1 teams clumped in the top bracket).
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Post by Matt Weiner »

bsmith wrote:such that the top D2 team goes unchallenged in the playoffs for the D2 title. A similar situation may arise of 1 UG team amongst 3 open teams in the top bracket.
They wouldn't go "unchallenged," they would have earned the higher placement by having a better record in the prelims, when the other D2/UG teams have the same opportunity. The "challenge" was to win more games than the other teams in the first round-robin.

You could level this criticism against any format that uses bracketed playoffs, could you not?
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bsmith
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Post by bsmith »

Matt Weiner wrote:
bsmith wrote:such that the top D2 team goes unchallenged in the playoffs for the D2 title. A similar situation may arise of 1 UG team amongst 3 open teams in the top bracket.
They wouldn't go "unchallenged," they would have earned the higher placement by having a better record in the prelims, when the other D2/UG teams have the same opportunity. The "challenge" was to win more games than the other teams in the first round-robin.

You could level this criticism against any format that uses bracketed playoffs, could you not?

I don't know how valued the UG title will be at this tournament.
The argument depends on there being some interest in that title. In my situation, I believe the D2 title was being more hotly contested than the overall title itself. The one D2 in the top bracket would be rightfully earned, but it would put much less interest in the remaining 3 games of the tournament. In effect, for the D2/UG, it is only an 11-round tournament.

I am also aware this situation regularly comes up at the ICT in both divisions. However, there is an official UG and CC championship match there at the end, which is rare for Sectionals.
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Post by Matt Weiner »

Hey, I'm all for playing whatever sub-finals you want, and it would be possible if NAQT had sent the 18 packets that were included in SCT until 2005. But clearly, despite consistent price increases and the fact that the D2 set is just half the DI set and half a high school set glued together, they aren't able to finance enough packets to run the tournament properly. We have to make do with what's available and a utilitarian approach says that we should maximize the games available to everybody rather than cut 3 rounds off the tournament just because it meets one very debatable interpretation of how to make the undergraduate title more legitimate.
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Post by Zip Zap Rap Pants »

Matt Weiner wrote:But clearly, despite consistent price increases and the fact that the D2 set is just half the DI set and half a high school set glued together
Do they still do this? With Yaphe editing the college stuff now and the (supposed) increased attention given to the college questions, I wonder what the D2 questions will be like/if there will be any connection to IS-66 like people were speculating about.
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Post by Matt Weiner »

Matt Morrison wrote:Do they still do this? With Yaphe editing the college stuff now and the (supposed) increased attention given to the college questions, I wonder what the D2 questions will be like/if there will be any connection to IS-66 like people were speculating about.
"The Division II SCT and Invitational Series #66 questions will also overlap"

http://www.hsquizbowl.org/phpBB2/viewto ... 4798#44798

On that note: the NAQT site lists IS-66 as being used last week at the "Bulldog Brawl" which it seems at least some members of the UGA team staffed at, as per http://www.hsquizbowl.org/phpBB2/viewto ... 4646#44646 . This could cause some major problems should such teams participate in SCT (as "2 to 3" D2 Georgia teams are listed as doing according to the latest UTC update) but at this point I've totally exhausted my energy for ferreting out whether this is yet another massive NAQT screwup or just an error on NAQT's website, so someone else will have to look into it.
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