The Quizbowl Resource Center

I want to start a thread to gather opinions on whether or not some experienced high school teams could or should attend certain college tournaments. If so, which tournaments might be at an appropriate level, and which tournaments might welcome such teams?

Personally, I'm vehemently against high school teams competing in college tournaments, regardless of their skill levels.

From the standpoint of the college team, I don't see what it would have to gain by defeating or losing to a high school team. It's a no-win situation.

mhayes wrote:Personally, I'm vehemently against high school teams competing in college tournaments, regardless of their skill levels.

From the standpoint of the college team, I don't see what it would have to gain by defeating or losing to a high school team. It's a no-win situation.

What's the difference between a college team beating or losing to another college team and beating or losing to a high school team of comparable skill?

mhayes wrote:Personally, I'm vehemently against high school teams competing in college tournaments, regardless of their skill levels.

From the standpoint of the college team, I don't see what it would have to gain by defeating or losing to a high school team. It's a no-win situation.

Conversely, from the standpoint of a high school team, I suppose it's a no-lose situation.

jbarnes112358 wrote: Conversely, from the standpoint of a high school team, I suppose it's a no-lose situation.

Agreed. Especially for people who plan to continue in college, it's a great way to get a toe in the water. Besides, it's a great way to learn and get better. Nothing teaches you how to play a game like losing to a good team.

What's the difference between a college team beating or losing to another college team and beating or losing to a high school team of comparable skill?

From the standpoint of pure skill, there isn't much of a difference of all.

However, to an outsider who doesn't know much of anything about the skills of either team, it just wouldn't look good if a collegiate team lost to a high school team.

That having been said, however, if a high school team is in need of experience and there are not many high school tournaments around, then I suppose it would be acceptable for them to play in a collegiate tournament.

mhayes wrote: However, to an outsider who doesn't know much of anything about the skills of either team, it just wouldn't look good if a collegiate team lost to a high school team.

Who is this mythical "outsider" that we have to worry about placating?

I don't think good HS teams would have any problem with the ACF Fall or EFT questions. The majority of college teams stink, so depending on the locale they could do quite well.

I've definitely played a few HS teams that could beat some college teams back in the day. If you've got the skills, I say go for it. (Shameless plug: EFT is an open tournament, if any HS folks want to come. Oct. 8 here at GT.)

I was a member of one of 8 teams that lost to TJ when they played at Buzzerfest back in '04. I don't think there's any outsider to placate here, just perhaps a bruised ego.

I'm all for the competition. If high school teams want to join college events, I see no reason not to allow them; everyone gains from having additional competiton, even if it is from people who were just hitting puberty when you graduated high school.

Valencia's Delta Burke tournament this November will likely end up featuring a couple hs teams, as we won't fill up with CC teams (I allow CCs the first chance to fill all slots, and then am happy to open it to hs teams). As that tournament is the first competitive QB experience for more than half of the CC players in the field, I'll expect the hs teams to be in the playoffs. Generally it's going to be the QB experience that sets teams apart, not what types of classes they've taken (at least for a juniorbird tourney).

The only good reasons for not allowing a good high school team to play against collegiate opposition have to do with maturity issues and supervision. I don't want some outraged biddy getting on my case because I sprinkled a few random "bullshit"s and "assclown"s in my packet. As long as parents and annoying coaches don't bother the TD, it's just another team as far as I'm concerned.

I think it's an excellent idea, Dr. Barnes, especially for a team like yours. I've read at several of UMD's college tournaments recently, and I quite frankly thought that some of my better teams could have been competitive with a few of the college teams there.

That's certainly not the case right now, and I don't think my present team would gain anything from the experience at this time. But your team is a much more knowledgeable team than mine. College tournaments will help your team because they'll be playing better opponents, because they'll hear a broader range of clues, and because they'll simply be playing more games.

Jerry makes a good point, however, that some of the questions have very adult material in them. So if your students or parents would have an issue with that, then you should probably check with the organizer regarding question content so you can decide whether the particular tournament would be acceptable.

A further point to consider is that there's overlap between NAQT D2 and IS series packets. Playing on one series may prevent you from playing on part or all of the other series.

Believe it or not, this is illegal in Illinois. I have no clue why.

Bruce wrote:Believe it or not, this is illegal in Illinois. I have no clue why.

While I doubt it's really "illegal," most states with any sort of bureaucratic tie-ins between quizbowl and high school activities associations would restrict colleges and high schools from playing each other. By the same logic, middle schools can't field a team in a high school tournament. A lot of it is eligibility stuff...some guy at college can't play for a high school team and vice versa. Also, a high school basketball team would never play a college team or NBA team, and that mindset is applied to quizbowl when there's some sort of HS state umbrella organization.

Howard wrote: A further point to consider is that there's overlap between NAQT D2 and IS series packets. Playing on one series may prevent you from playing on part or all of the other series.

NAQT college tournaments are restricted to collegiate teams in any case (i.e. they are not de facto "opens" like most independent events), so high schoolers would not be able to participate even if question issues were resolved.

MikeWormdog wrote:

Bruce wrote:Believe it or not, this is illegal in Illinois. I have no clue why.

While I doubt it's really "illegal," most states with any sort of bureaucratic tie-ins between quizbowl and high school activities associations would restrict colleges and high schools from playing each other. By the same logic, middle schools can't field a team in a high school tournament. A lot of it is eligibility stuff...some guy at college can't play for a high school team and vice versa. Also, a high school basketball team would never play a college team or NBA team, and that mindset is applied to quizbowl when there's some sort of HS state umbrella organization.

Actually, I often have my middle school players compete in high school events...

I have considered trying to get my high school team to a collegiate tournament. The logistics haven't worked out yet, though. Every time I have found a suitable college tournament to attend, there is a high school tournament on the same day. I would love to let me high schoolers play at UTC or ACF Fall, but I probably won't forego a high school tournament in order to do so. I do know, though, that I played a lot of college teams that my high school team would kill.

Of course, you could open a big-ass can of worms here. If you start allowing high school teams to compete in college events, that might become a very uncomfortable trend. Perhaps hosts should consider some type of criteria (I'm not sure what, though) for allowing a high school team to compete. You certainly don't want really bad high school teams competing in college tournaments.

Lee, the thing is, bad teams won't do it. If a high school team is losing to other high schools, do you think they'd even consider playing college teams? As for the use of cusswords, porn and other things that aren't (and shouldn't, IMO) be found in high school packets, I think that the teams that go kind of know this beforehand.

quizbowllee wrote: You certainly don't want really bad high school teams competing in college tournaments.

There are college teams out there who are just as bad as any bad high school team, and yet these are still allowed to show up to any college tournament they please.

I'm not sure this would be necessary at all.

The really relevant point to be made here is how terrible most collegiate teams are. And, yeah, I don't see a floodgate of helpless hs teams muddying the waters. I'm all for good hs teams playing, especially if it'll help this whole retention thing. As for offensive content, incidentally, I'm against college tournaments not having it - if you don't throw in three or four things with potential to really piss someone off, you're liable to make all the wrong people happy.

MikeWormdog wrote:

Bruce wrote:Believe it or not, this is illegal in Illinois. I have no clue why.

While I doubt it's really "illegal," most states with any sort of bureaucratic tie-ins between quizbowl and high school activities associations would restrict colleges and high schools from playing each other. By the same logic, middle schools can't field a team in a high school tournament. A lot of it is eligibility stuff...some guy at college can't play for a high school team and vice versa. Also, a high school basketball team would never play a college team or NBA team, and that mindset is applied to quizbowl when there's some sort of HS state umbrella organization.

I lost to Andy Goss's TJ my senior year of college in 1997.

I have no problem with allowing exceptional HS teams to play in a college tournament, provided players, coaches and parents realize that certain material will be covered in college quizbowl and not HS quizbowl, especially in the Pop Culture arena.

There is no VHSL rule against Scholastic Bowl teams trying their luck. My VHSL contact was very impressed when I told him that TJ had finished second in a college tournament.

I'm fairly confident Missouri has a rule against this, although I wouldn't be opposed to letting a good HS team play if this wasn't the case.