Are there ever an open NAC-style tournaments?

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pappy97
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Are there ever an open NAC-style tournaments?

Post by pappy97 »

When I was in high school (Northern CA) everyone in these parts played NAC (Chip Beall's thing) style with 2 rounds of short toss ups, bonuses, and one 60 second lightning round.

Does anyone regularly host open tournaments playing NAC style? All I seem to see are open ACT/NAQT tourneys.

Just curious (because I loved the NAC style because of its short toss ups and the lightning round)...

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Post by Rothlover »

I believe Terrier Tussle had a lightning round this year, though someone there could feel free to correct me, and plenty of tournaments have shoot-out rounds and such, which are kind of chip-esque in terms of pace.

Cali should have some decent events next year though, perhaps you could consider going to a few and see if you like them, even if they lack a lighting round, and have slightly longer tus and such.
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Post by Leo Wolpert »

Though the style isn't exactly the same, if you're looking for open favoritism; a moronic game show atmosphere; an overabundance of superfluous, patronizing, largely incompetent staff; short questions ranging from lame to insipid to riddles to rage-inducing; and exorbitant costs, then CBI regionals is "open."

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Post by Ethnic history of the Vilnius region »

Leo Wolpert wrote:Though the style isn't exactly the same, if you're looking for open favoritism; a moronic game show atmosphere; an overabundance of superfluous, patronizing, largely incompetent staff; short questions ranging from lame to insipid to riddles to rage-inducing; and exorbitant costs, then CBI regionals is "open."
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Re: Are there ever an open NAC-style tournaments?

Post by First Chairman »

pappy97 wrote:When I was in high school (Northern CA) everyone in these parts played NAC (Chip Beall's thing) style with 2 rounds of short toss ups, bonuses, and one 60 second lightning round.

Does anyone regularly host open tournaments playing NAC style? All I seem to see are open ACT/NAQT tourneys.

Just curious (because I loved the NAC style because of its short toss ups and the lightning round)...
Hoping this isn't a trollish post, I'm sure that there are such events. Chip does make some money selling "tournament questions" so it shouldn't surprise you that there may be comps that use his stuff.

They don't ever post their events on THIS bulletin board however... and I don't think most would be interested in doing anything more than just cater to their local schools anyway... but I don't know that answer.
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Re: Are there ever an open NAC-style tournaments?

Post by pappy97 »

E.T. Chuck wrote:
pappy97 wrote:When I was in high school (Northern CA) everyone in these parts played NAC (Chip Beall's thing) style with 2 rounds of short toss ups, bonuses, and one 60 second lightning round.

Does anyone regularly host open tournaments playing NAC style? All I seem to see are open ACT/NAQT tourneys.

Just curious (because I loved the NAC style because of its short toss ups and the lightning round)...
Hoping this isn't a trollish post, I'm sure that there are such events. Chip does make some money selling "tournament questions" so it shouldn't surprise you that there may be comps that use his stuff.

They don't ever post their events on THIS bulletin board however... and I don't think most would be interested in doing anything more than just cater to their local schools anyway... but I don't know that answer.
This is certainly not a trollish post. I am participating in the Cardinal Classic (ACF style) this weekend and it is my first tourney since High School (and I graduated HS in 1997), since my pathetic college, University of the Pacific, didn't have the team and the people you might would be interested were into Academic Decathalon instead, which I find no fun at all.

While I don't mind ACF/NAQT style, I grew up with NAC style. Long before I ever attended high school (and even during for a while), I watch episodes of the Texaco Star National Academic Championship (on KTSF Channel 26 in the SF Bay Area), which is the biggest thing that got me into quiz bowl.

Then in my high school the intraschool tourney every year was NAC style. The big tourney we played in each year interschool, the Bay Area Academic Championships (an NAC qualifier), were also NAC style.

So please forgive me if I don't really care or know much about any politics or whatever involving NAC and Chip Beall.

I just wanted to know where I (hence the use of the word open, to refer to tournaments dinosaurs/masters could play in) could still play in organized tournaments that either use NAC questions or NAC style (like WRAL's Brain Game TV show, I seriously doubt they use NAC questions, but they have a lightning round).

Why wouldn't anyone here want to host an NAC-style tournament?

Do you mean to suggest if I organized an open to anyone tournament (say here in California), using NAC style questions, minimal entry fees (just to cover buzzer, I'll pay for the questions), and I announced the tourney here on hsquizbowl.org, that nobody would go?

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Re: Are there ever an open NAC-style tournaments?

Post by First Chairman »

pappy97 wrote: This is certainly not a trollish post. I am participating in the Cardinal Classic (ACF style) this weekend and it is my first tourney since High School (and I graduated HS in 1997), since my pathetic college, University of the Pacific, didn't have the team and the people you might would be interested were into Academic Decathalon instead, which I find no fun at all.
Okay... and we all thank God there is no college Decathlon circuit.
I just wanted to know where I (hence the use of the word open, to refer to tournaments dinosaurs/masters could play in) could still play in organized tournaments that either use NAC questions or NAC style (like WRAL's Brain Game TV show, I seriously doubt they use NAC questions, but they have a lightning round).
Well, the WRAL show uses an It's Ac like format, but they decided to do their own thing with it. As a result, the show sucks.
Why wouldn't anyone here want to host an NAC-style tournament?
Probably the same reason why no one here would ever host a High School Bowl (TM) tournament (from CBI): it costs too much and none of the teams we invite would want them.
Do you mean to suggest if I organized an open to anyone tournament (say here in California), using NAC style questions, minimal entry fees (just to cover buzzer, I'll pay for the questions), and I announced the tourney here on hsquizbowl.org, that nobody would go?
I am sure if you did paper invitations and got maybe some interesting prizes people would attend. I'm not as certain that teams reading this bb would though.

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Post by MLafer »

Well I for one cannot wait to see Papool's packet for the tournament this weekend

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Re: Are there ever an open NAC-style tournaments?

Post by e_steinhauser »

E.T. Chuck wrote:and we all thank God there is no college Decathlon circuit.
Amen, though I suspect we might have different reasons ... :wink:
--eps

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Post by pappy97 »

MLafer wrote:Well I for one cannot wait to see Papool's packet for the tournament this weekend
I did not write it NAC style in case you were wondering.

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Post by e_steinhauser »

I'll go ahead and bite with a serious, explanatory response.

My guess is that pappy and I have similar HS backgrounds -- my school (Friendswood HS, Texas) only did the Texaco Star Chip thingy during my freshman and sophomore years, playing only 2-3 games per year before we were eliminated in the TV rounds. I remember watching the show with great interest when I was in elementary and junior high school, and for the brief few games I played, I loved it. I thought it was the pinnacle of quizbowl, since, hey, it's on TV, and how could it be any better? The Houston show got the axe in 1995, though, and we never played again, save for two quasi-tournaments in that same year.

My HS coaches were also the Academic Decathlon coaches, and since our school was a powerhouse in that, it was far more emphasized. I sort of forgot about quizbowl until I got to college (University of Pittsburgh) and fell into the Pitt quizbowl program. The whole tossup-bonus format was new and strange to me, but I quickly adapted.

There's nothing inherently bad about the NAC/QU format, just like there's nothing inherently good about the collegiate format. The major difference is in the audience served.

NAC format is designed to be an audience-friendly game show. Played off-camera, with no audience, it comes across as phony. The question style focuses more on reaction, riddles, and showmanship. In short, it's aimed at amateur players.

The collegiate format (as currently played) is designed solely for the players' benefit. Questions are generally designed to be of consistent difficulty and quality across a set, rewarding breadth and depth of knowledge. It's aimed at veteran or more serious players.

The kind of people who will travel and play in tournaments are those who take these events quite seriously. They want a certain guaranteed level of question quality, guaranteed number of games, and tournament results that are consistent with team quality. The NAC format and QU questions simply fail to deliver on all three counts.
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Post by pappy97 »

e_steinhauser wrote:I'll go ahead and bite with a serious, explanatory response.

My guess is that pappy and I have similar HS backgrounds -- my school (Friendswood HS, Texas) only did the Texaco Star Chip thingy during my freshman and sophomore years, playing only 2-3 games per year before we were eliminated in the TV rounds. I remember watching the show with great interest when I was in elementary and junior high school, and for the brief few games I played, I loved it. I thought it was the pinnacle of quizbowl, since, hey, it's on TV, and how could it be any better? The Houston show got the axe in 1995, though, and we never played again, save for two quasi-tournaments in that same year.

My HS coaches were also the Academic Decathlon coaches, and since our school was a powerhouse in that, it was far more emphasized. I sort of forgot about quizbowl until I got to college (University of Pittsburgh) and fell into the Pitt quizbowl program. The whole tossup-bonus format was new and strange to me, but I quickly adapted.

There's nothing inherently bad about the NAC/QU format, just like there's nothing inherently good about the collegiate format. The major difference is in the audience served.

NAC format is designed to be an audience-friendly game show. Played off-camera, with no audience, it comes across as phony. The question style focuses more on reaction, riddles, and showmanship. In short, it's aimed at amateur players.

The collegiate format (as currently played) is designed solely for the players' benefit. Questions are generally designed to be of consistent difficulty and quality across a set, rewarding breadth and depth of knowledge. It's aimed at veteran or more serious players.

The kind of people who will travel and play in tournaments are those who take these events quite seriously. They want a certain guaranteed level of question quality, guaranteed number of games, and tournament results that are consistent with team quality. The NAC format and QU questions simply fail to deliver on all three counts.
Thanks for the explanation, and thanks for all the prevous responses as well. I can't wait to play the tournament this weekend and see how ACF style goes.

I think my biggest reason for asking about NAC was about the lightning round. I noticed that ACF and NAQT are 100% toss-up/bonus, and when I played those NAC style games, the lightning round was a welcome break from keeping your finger/thumb/hand on the buzzer during rounds 1 and 3, plus it was fun.

Someone said that a few tournaments advertised here use something like a lightning round, and now in my "comeback," I do hope to encounter such events.

I can live with out Chip Beall and NAC, I just remember how much I enjoyed lightning rounds and noticed that many major formats don't do anything like it.

One last thing: Senior associates and partners at my law firm have suggested I ask to see if anyone in my office wants to create a quiz bowl team to hit the West Coast (Especially Bay Area) OPEN Quiz Bowl Circuit. Sounds like to get people into it, I should start out with NAC questions, so as not to scare them off. Once they are into it, seems like I can delve into the more challenging NAQT/ACF style questions.

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Post by ASimPerson »

e_steinhauser wrote:The question style focuses more on reaction, riddles, and showmanship.
I don't disagree with the rest of your post, but that's not inherently bad? Perhaps I just can't understand why anyone would want questions that rely on these sorts of things.

Or have audio tossups whose answer is "blender".
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Post by e_steinhauser »

ASimPerson wrote:
e_steinhauser wrote:The question style focuses more on reaction, riddles, and showmanship.
I don't disagree with the rest of your post, but that's not inherently bad? Perhaps I just can't understand why anyone would want questions that rely on these sorts of things.

Or have audio tossups whose answer is "blender".
No, I don't think it's inherently bad. I'll certainly grant that it's not good quizbowl in the sense that we have played it over the past many years in the collegiate / masters circuit, but I'm loathe to condemn non-standard quiz/trivia contests without other good reason.

In terms of general public acceptance, I'd think the "recall, riddle, showmanship" combo is more popular. Remove Beall/QU from the picture, and I don't see anything particularly egregious about it when compared to something like Jeopardy, It's Academic, or bar trivia. Most of our problems with NAC stem directly from the dreadful questions used.

I'll even go so far as to posit that it would be eminently possible to craft a NAC-style question set that was generally free of bad quizbowl. You'd have to make allowances for shorter tossups (and thus more buzzer races) for the warmup round, and you'd have to accept the inherent limitations of the lightning round, but that's about it.
--eps

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