ACF Regionals 2015 Global Announcement (January 24, 2015)

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Re: ACF Regionals 2015 Global Announcement (January 24, 2015

Post by AKKOLADE »

but if i can't post in public, how will everyone know how right i am
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Re: ACF Regionals 2015 Global Announcement (January 24, 2015

Post by Adventure Temple Trail »

Cody wrote:Why? No college set's discussion should be beholden to someone wanting to use it off-label, whether that be NASAT tryouts or some other wacky event. Given the lateness of this announcement, it's kind of self-defeating since a number of high schools have already signed up to play ACF Regionals. And, moreover, there are TWO college tournaments of appropriate difficulty for NASAT tryouts being mirrored in the time that NASAT tryouts would occur (STIMPY, MUT). You could even add Oxford Open to that -- there are plenty of possibilities.

So, why should public discussion of Regionals be embargo-d for over two months, and discussion over-all stifled as no one will have the set, for quite literally no reason at all?

Chris Ray got it right.
In actual fact, the Illinois tryout is occurring on a date when no other sets (of any kind or difficulty, I'm pretty sure) are clear for use. From what I''ve been told, STIMPY and MUT are first available on March 14th, almost a month later. (With that in mind, I've narrowed the window somewhat in my original post.) Private discussion fora have worked fine for the supermajority of sets over the past few years that need them, and people who played the set will be let in as is usually the case.

While in an ideal world, it would be nice to trust every player in the country not to look at a publicly-cleared set before playing on it, we just know from reality that that isn't the case. To be so trusting is foolhardy when Steven Hines and the California BHSAT incident happened less than a year ago. It would make no sense to offer use of this set at all if it is available to whoever wants it before future uses. It seems to me that that's what you would have preferred -- that this set not be offered for this use at all -- and that's a fine opinion, but it won't undo the agreement that I've already struck with the organizers of Team Illinois for February 15.

Those states which have high school teams teams registered for sites this Saturday are, as you say, free to schedule their tryouts for later when other sets are available. This offer is just that, an offer, and I encourage high school teams with plans to play the set this weekend to keep those plans in place.
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Re: ACF Regionals 2015 Global Announcement (January 24, 2015

Post by Cody »

Matthew Jackson wrote:In actual fact, the Illinois tryout is occurring on a date when no other sets (of any kind or difficulty, I'm pretty sure) are clear for use. From what I''ve been told, STIMPY and MUT are first available on March 14th, almost a month later. (With that in mind, I've narrowed the window somewhat in my original post.) Private discussion fora have worked fine for the supermajority of sets over the past few years that need them, and people who played the set will be let in as is usually the case.
Well...no. There's Oxford Open and DEES (which is being mirrored on Feb. 28 in the UK, so definitely not clear until then). i.e. 2 regular difficulty options before MUT & STIMPY come into play. Private fora w/o distributing the set does have a dampening effect on discussion -- it just doesn't work as well as when the set is distributed to people to re-browse.
Matthew Jackson wrote:It seems to me that that's what you would have preferred -- that this set not be offered for this use at all -- and that's a fine opinion, but it won't undo the agreement that I've already struck with the organizers of Team Illinois for February 15.
Yes. It's not the responsibility of a collegiate set to arbitrarily withhold itself from circulation (which does impede discussion) because some entity wishes to uses it for a non-mirror. (I mean, especially when we are talking about the regular difficulty event of the entire season).
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Re: ACF Regionals 2015 Global Announcement (January 24, 2015

Post by Oh No You Didn't »

I don't know about Oxford open but DEES has already been played by a lot of top illinois high schoolers at NTV
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Re: ACF Regionals 2015 Global Announcement (January 24, 2015

Post by theMoMA »

Cody wrote:Why? No college set's discussion should be beholden to someone wanting to use it off-label, whether that be NASAT tryouts or some other wacky event. Given the lateness of this announcement, it's kind of self-defeating since a number of high schools have already signed up to play ACF Regionals. And, moreover, there are TWO college tournaments of appropriate difficulty for NASAT tryouts being mirrored in the time that NASAT tryouts would occur (STIMPY, MUT). You could even add Oxford Open to that -- there are plenty of possibilities.

So, why should public discussion of Regionals be embargo-d for over two months, and discussion over-all stifled as no one will have the set, for quite literally no reason at all?

Chris Ray got it right.
On the contrary, I'm glad to see people on both the high school and college sides of the game working together to use question sets, the only real commodity in this game, efficiently. I get that it's nice to have an immediate and wholly public discussion, but seeing as it's now common for almost every set to have a private discussion forum, the downsides are fairly minimal.
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Re: ACF Regionals 2015 Global Announcement (January 24, 2015

Post by Ndg »

For what it's worth: Based on my experience this past weekend, I would discourage people from using the Oxford Open set, in its current state, for tryouts.
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Re: ACF Regionals 2015 Global Announcement (January 24, 2015

Post by Cheynem »

SCT, the other premiere regular difficulty event of the year, has routinely been in a private forum for years, and always generates productive and interesting discussion. I don't see this as a problem.
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Re: ACF Regionals 2015 Global Announcement (January 24, 2015

Post by Urech hydantoin synthesis »

Cheynem wrote:SCT, the other premiere regular difficulty event of the year, has routinely been in a private forum for years, and always generates productive and interesting discussion. I don't see this as a problem.
It seems like this arrangement is less conducive for discussion than SCT, as the latter is given for teams to review.
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Re: ACF Regionals 2015 Global Announcement (January 24, 2015

Post by Masked Canadian History Bandit »

christino wrote:
Cheynem wrote:SCT, the other premiere regular difficulty event of the year, has routinely been in a private forum for years, and always generates productive and interesting discussion. I don't see this as a problem.
It seems like this arrangement is less conducive for discussion than SCT, as the latter is given for teams to review.
As it stands now, people who know people who have access to the set are able to get it before it's posted even when there are no delayed mirrors. If discussion of a set is so important, than perhaps a happy solution would be for the ACF editors to send a copy of the set to the contact email of all attending teams who request a copy with the proviso that it not be shared with others. Then the set can be properly discussed while the Steve Hines of the world would be stymied.
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Re: ACF Regionals 2015 Global Announcement (January 24, 2015

Post by Mnemosyne »

Having to discuss in a private sub forum is negligible compared to not releasing the set to anyone for two months. Getting to review the set you played while its somewhat fresh is a pretty big part of quiz bowl, at least for me. I guess I (and others) will just be writing down every single answer line from the tournament since we won't get the set anytime soon, which basically gives me the same ability to help others cheat if I wanted to do so (which I won't, but it's still stupid).
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Re: ACF Regionals 2015 Global Announcement (January 24, 2015

Post by AKKOLADE »

Cody wrote:
Matthew Jackson wrote:In actual fact, the Illinois tryout is occurring on a date when no other sets (of any kind or difficulty, I'm pretty sure) are clear for use. From what I''ve been told, STIMPY and MUT are first available on March 14th, almost a month later. (With that in mind, I've narrowed the window somewhat in my original post.) Private discussion fora have worked fine for the supermajority of sets over the past few years that need them, and people who played the set will be let in as is usually the case.
Well...no. There's Oxford Open and DEES (which is being mirrored on Feb. 28 in the UK, so definitely not clear until then). i.e. 2 regular difficulty options before MUT & STIMPY come into play. Private fora w/o distributing the set does have a dampening effect on discussion -- it just doesn't work as well as when the set is distributed to people to re-browse.
Spoilers: anyone who's been around college quiz bowl for more than, I don't know, a year knows that they can get a set if they want to.

Perhaps the ACF Regionals editors could email out sets to teams that played at the college sets. Alternatively, hosts could print the sets out for a small fee to teams attending.

I'm also of the opinion that post tournament discussion mostly consists of "this set was (choose one: good, thank you for your work/bad, thank you for your work but don't suck)" and/or "this one particular question had an issue, so me and four other people who care strongly about this particular subject are going to hijack this thread to argue about the order of the third and fourth clue for the rest of the thread." If you really want to discuss details of questions super bad, you can ask that those questions be posted by the editors so you can review them.
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Re: ACF Regionals 2015 Global Announcement (January 24, 2015

Post by Auks Ran Ova »

There's no reason not to distribute packets to people who played the set. There's no benefit to cheating at NASAT tryouts and anyone who would do so would soon find themselves hoist by their own petard anyway.
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Re: ACF Regionals 2015 Global Announcement (January 24, 2015

Post by Cheynem »

I agree in principle there's no point in cheating at NASAT tryouts, but there's no point in cheating at online mirrors too and people have done that. Furthermore, if you cheat at a NASAT tryout, you don't just hoist yourself, you screw over your team and other folks because they don't get to field the actual strongest team.

I think that there is nothing wrong with a private discussion forum and allowing teams to have played the tournament to ask the editors for a copy. If a cheater gets a hold of the set through backdoor means, which is always a possibility, that's one thing. Publicly posting a set or a discussion forum and asking people to control themselves is far more unrealistic.
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Re: ACF Regionals 2015 Global Announcement (January 24, 2015

Post by Auks Ran Ova »

Cheynem wrote:I agree in principle there's no point in cheating at NASAT tryouts, but there's no point in cheating at online mirrors too and people have done that. Furthermore, if you cheat at a NASAT tryout, you don't just hoist yourself, you screw over your team and other folks because they don't get to field the actual strongest team.

I think that there is nothing wrong with a private discussion forum and allowing teams to have played the tournament to ask the editors for a copy. If a cheater gets a hold of the set through backdoor means, which is always a possibility, that's one thing. Publicly posting a set or a discussion forum and asking people to control themselves is far more unrealistic.
Right, perhaps I should've been clearer--I'm totally fine with not publicly posting the set, but there's no reason teams that played it shouldn't be given a copy.
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Re: ACF Regionals 2015 Global Announcement (January 24, 2015

Post by dxdtdemon »

Ndg wrote:For what it's worth: Based on my experience this past weekend, I would discourage people from using the Oxford Open set, in its current state, for tryouts.
In this vein, has there been an Oxford Open discussion group set up yet?
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Re: ACF Regionals 2015 Global Announcement (January 24, 2015

Post by Ewan MacAulay »

cwRsync wrote:
Ndg wrote:For what it's worth: Based on my experience this past weekend, I would discourage people from using the Oxford Open set, in its current state, for tryouts.
In this vein, has there been an Oxford Open discussion group set up yet?
Yep, it's been set up.
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Re: ACF Regionals 2015 Global Announcement (January 24, 2015

Post by Blackboard Monitor Vimes »

All nine of our hosts should have now heard from me twice this week with information about stats and such. If your site has not heard from me, please let me know ASAP.
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Re: ACF Regionals 2015 Global Announcement (January 24, 2015

Post by Adventure Temple Trail »

ACF Regionals 2015 is now a fully armed and operational battle station. :party: On behalf of the editing team, I wish all involved competitors safe travels and a fulfilling tournament experience.
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Re: ACF Regionals 2015 Global Announcement (January 24, 2015

Post by Blackboard Monitor Vimes »

Hosts should have received packets from me this morning. If you are a host and you do not have packets, please get in touch with me ASAP.
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Re: ACF Regionals 2015 Global Announcement (January 24, 2015

Post by Adventure Temple Trail »

Thank you to everybody who attended ACF Regionals 2015 today, and to all the hosts who went out of their way to make local sites run smoothly and fairly.

There is now a private discussion subforum for the set, which can be joined by the standard procedure by going to your User Control Panel, then Usergroups, then selecting "2015 ACF Regionals Discussion," then clicking "Join selected" from the drop-down menu. If you played, staffed, or helped, I hope to see many of your thoughts and opinions there!

As a reminder, the set is NOT clear for public discussion and I will NOT be distributing it or releasing it publicly until the last of the scheduled NASAT tryouts occurs.

Official A-values will be computed over the next few days as stats become available and, presumably, released all at once some time within the upcoming week.
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Re: ACF Regionals 2015 Global Announcement (January 24, 2015

Post by Adventure Temple Trail »

Thus far, the coaches of Team Illinois are the only organization which has expressed definitive interest in doing tryouts on the ACF Regionals set such that it needs to remain un-cleared. Due to the general storm of players who hope to see the full set as soon as they can, if you are organizing NASAT tryouts for February or the first half of March, and have a date set for tryouts on which you want or need to use ACF Regionals 2015, please contact me with firm details THIS WEEK or else I will release the set after Illinois completes its tryout on the 15th. I encourage tryouts at a later date to avail themselves of the STIMPY or MUT sets, which should both become available in mid-March. It of course remains the case that in many regions, NASAT teams can come together without the need for a formal tryout of any kind; if your state only has 4 to 6 interested players it may be best to just begin making plans with those players and skip the formality.

EDIT: Team Virginia has done this; because they are running before Illinois on this Thursday, February 5, none of the above is obviated in the least.
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Re: ACF Regionals 2015 Global Announcement (January 24, 2015

Post by Adventure Temple Trail »

As of now, no other organizations have come forward with intent to use the Regionals set for NASAT tryouts, so the set will be publicly cleared and posted (and the discussion threads made public) once I have confirmation that Illinois tryouts have been concluded on the 15th. [EDIT: Team Maryland will be using blind questions from ACF Regionals and DEES at its tryouts on Sunday the 15th. The clearing date remains unchanged.]

Thank you, everybody, for your patience and comments. The question of whether and how to open this particular college set to high school tryout use, and the question of how trustworthy to be about releasing uncleared question sets to teams that played, will certainly be revisited for next year, and I appreciate everyone's comments on the trial run of doing it this way this time.
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Re: ACF Regionals 2015 Global Announcement (January 24, 2015

Post by Adventure Temple Trail »

The Illinois and Maryland tryouts have concluded, so ACF Regionals 2015 is now cleared for public discussion. I will be posting the set to the packet archive today and asking that the private discussion threads be moved to the public forum.

Edit: Voila!
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