Driver's Ed, Home Economics, etc

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Driver's Ed, Home Economics, etc

Post by Geringer »

I've been mulling this over for a while, and I figure I'd throw this up for discussion.

The IHSA says Driver's Ed and other such categories are included because they are taught in schools. To my knowledge, most AP students (I'm making the assumption that most quizbowlers are taking rigorous academic schedules) do not have the time to take driver's ed and other classes like home ec or autoshop because they're neck-deep in homework from their college prep classes. I would even go so far as to say that most enterprising students take driver's ed during the summer at third-party providers like I did in order to free up time during the year. Also, most quizbowlers are probably going to take a class on art history or biology before they take "Creative Cakes" (thank you Barrington High School).

In summation, if we are to mirror what is taught to quizbowlers in the classroom, we should consider trying to poll all active players in Illinois and get hard data on how many players are actually enrolled in these kind of classes. Nothing will change, most likely, but I think it would be a good starting point for discussions attempting to get rid of this abomina-I mean-beloved category.
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Re: Driver's Ed, Home Economics, etc

Post by Aaron Goldfein »

I took driver's ed the summer before my sophomore year. Still, I always got the feeling that it was more of a class for getting in driving practice rather than learning anything classroom style. I also took four years of physical education (as do all in Illinois), but the IHSA never asks any questions on that.
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Re: Driver's Ed, Home Economics, etc

Post by BGSO »

Aaron Goldfein wrote: I also took four years of physical education (as do all in Illinois), but the IHSA never asks any questions on that.

Don't give them any ideas!
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Re: Driver's Ed, Home Economics, etc

Post by Dan-Don »

I'm of the mind that if a season's worth of pyramidal questions can't be written about a topic, that topic should not be asked about. I think the debate about the academic merits of driver's ed/home ec/agriculture/comp math/etc. is pointless. It all begins and ends with: "Can this be pyramidally tossed up on a weekendly basis? No, you say? Then it cannot be part of the canon."
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Re: Driver's Ed, Home Economics, etc

Post by Boeing X-20, Please! »

Dan-Don wrote:"canon."
IHSA doesnt know what this is
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Re: Driver's Ed, Home Economics, etc

Post by dtaylor4 »

You guys are trying to apply some semblance of logic to this. That is where you argument falls flat.
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Re: Driver's Ed, Home Economics, etc

Post by Dominator »

Just to be clear here, I am not a fan of Driver's Ed, Home Ec, and the infamous Industrial Arts. I am just bothered by them (in IHSA tourneys) less than other people are. I agree whole-heartedly with Dan-Don (omg never thought I'd say that) in that, if questions on these subjects are to be written, they should be written to the same standards of good questions as other subjects.

And props to the guy who wrote the driver's ed question in this year's IHSA Sectional on the interstate highway system.

My favorite moment in industrial arts this year- To paraphrase a tournament which even I will call bad quizbowl:
Moderator: "FTP, name this kind of hammer with a flat face for driving nails and two prongs on the other end of the head to remove nails."
IMSA Player: "Sledgehammer."
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Re: Driver's Ed, Home Economics, etc

Post by jdeliverer »

Dominator wrote: And props to the guy who wrote the driver's ed question in this year's IHSA Sectional on the interstate highway system.
I hate IHSA because the category made me freeze up even though I knew it :(
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Re: Driver's Ed, Home Economics, etc

Post by Charbroil »

Aaron Goldfein wrote: I also took four years of physical education (as do all in Illinois), but the IHSA never asks any questions on that.
I think it would probably be easier to write pyramidal questions on physical education than Driver's Ed, since you could easily write questions about a sport (assuming Illinois students also learn a little bit about how a sport came into being during their PE classes just like we did at our high school). Notably, one of my teammates powered a question about volleyball at HSNCT because he'd learned who the founder of volleyball was during his Tennis, Volleyball, and Badminton class.
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Re: Driver's Ed, Home Economics, etc

Post by Captain Sinico »

The fact that there exists any debate in favor of or apologizing for the inclusion of these categories is eminently symptomatic of what's wrong with Illinois.

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Re: Driver's Ed, Home Economics, etc

Post by mrgsmath »

Dan-Don wrote:I'm of the mind that if a season's worth of pyramidal questions can't be written about a topic, that topic should not be asked about. I think the debate about the academic merits of driver's ed/home ec/agriculture/comp math/etc. is pointless. It all begins and ends with: "Can this be pyramidally tossed up on a weekendly basis? No, you say? Then it cannot be part of the canon."
I am in complete agreement with this point. While I will set aside my views of "canon", it would seem only logical that to include a subject area as acceptable over the long term, there should be a sustainable base for question development. I would add that subjects such as drivers's education, that are subject to continual changes, not only only across statelines but even within states, makes the inclusion of such material unreasonable.
KHAAAAN please wrote:... To my knowledge, most AP students (I'm making the assumption that most quizbowlers are taking rigorous academic schedules) do not have the time to take driver's ed and other classes like home ec or autoshop because they're neck-deep in homework from their college prep classes.
In summation, if we are to mirror what is taught to quizbowlers in the classroom, we should consider trying to poll all active players in Illinois and get hard data on how many players are actually enrolled in these kind of classes. Nothing will change, most likely, but I think it would be a good starting point for discussions attempting to get rid of this abomina-I mean-beloved category.
Here you assume that Illinois scholastic bowl is intended as a farm system for the college quiz bowl system. IHSA has as a prime objective to provide opportunities for all students, not just those who are college bound. Unlike the sports programs, that have a more established model, scholastic bowl has been searching for its identity. University programs have been more successful in that task, but one only needs to look at the variety of forms across the country to see that high schools have a long way to go. On a side note, I could write pyramidal questions along the standard format within a variety of Vocational education subjects to fill the next three seasons, but most players would not get it until the last clue, simply as you have stated, because they have no interest in the subject matter. Here is where I would suggest some inner reflection would be of value, before you render some subjects as lacking intellectual value. If it is your intention to restrict "quiz bowl" to the select few, then you will never change IHSA, as that runs counter to their "doctrine".
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Re: Driver's Ed, Home Economics, etc

Post by Charbroil »

mrgsmath wrote:
KHAAAAN please wrote:... To my knowledge, most AP students (I'm making the assumption that most quizbowlers are taking rigorous academic schedules) do not have the time to take driver's ed and other classes like home ec or autoshop because they're neck-deep in homework from their college prep classes.
In summation, if we are to mirror what is taught to quizbowlers in the classroom, we should consider trying to poll all active players in Illinois and get hard data on how many players are actually enrolled in these kind of classes. Nothing will change, most likely, but I think it would be a good starting point for discussions attempting to get rid of this abomina-I mean-beloved category.
Here you assume that Illinois scholastic bowl is intended as a farm system for the college quiz bowl system. IHSA has as a prime objective to provide opportunities for all students, not just those who are college bound...On a side note, I could write pyramidal questions along the standard format within a variety of Vocational education subjects to fill the next three seasons, but most players would not get it until the last clue, simply as you have stated, because they have no interest in the subject matter.
While there's nothing that requires Scholastic Bowl to be a game for college-bound or college students, I have to ask why you feel that providing opportunities to all students requires questions on home economics or vocational education, especially if such questions take away from a Quiz Bowl game's ability to differentiate between the knowledge of two teams.

I say that such questions might take away from Quiz Bowl's ability to differentiate between the knowledge of two teams because I question whether it's possible to write a question which test's a team's deeper knowledge of home economics or vocational education while remaining pyramidal. For example, when you say that most players couldn't answer your vocational education questions (which I'd love to see examples of, incidentally), I have to also wonder--would anyone be able to get them before the giveaway?* I wonder this because if not, such a question is still unpyramidal (just putting harder clues in front of easy ones doesn't make a question pyramidal if the harder clues are unanswerable) and if all vocational education questions are like that, then vocational education can't make good Quiz Bowl.

*I'm say this because I'm not sure whether there is a source of clues you can study for topics like vocational education and home economics. While it's easy to gain knowledge of, say, literature or history by reading books on those topics, I don't know if there are similar books about sewing or cooking which give detailed information about, say, hems or basting and moreover, agree with each other so that you can have unequivocally true deep knowledge clues about such topics.

Finally, I have to question your basic premise that Scholastic Bowl has to be accessible to all students, because that's a premise that no other sport aspires to. For example, playing tennis requires a basic degree of hand-eye coordination and athletic ability. Just as it would be absurd for me to argue during my next tennis match that I should be able to earn points for being able to shoot a basketball (never mind about being able to answer a Quiz Bowl question), shouldn't it also be absurd to say that players should be able to earn points in Quiz Bowl for being able to fix a car, cook a meal, or build a chair, assuming that there's no way to adequately write questions on those topics and that these topics take away from Quiz Bowl's stated purpose of testing knowledge?
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Re: Driver's Ed, Home Economics, etc

Post by mrgsmath »

Without spending time in structuring the question, going from harder to easier, I would develop a question concerning "calipers" that might begin with clues that differentate it from other tools in that its measurement is attained through comparitive means as opposed to a thread ratios that are more easily subject to wear. Next clues might be related to its early development as a tool for measuring internal and external dimensions often using a secondary scale for taking final measurements but later models had a built in vernier scale system. Current popular models utilizing dial and electronic readings have improved their accuracy significantly. Name this device most commonly found in a 0 -6" model and commonly associated with lathe work.

While most persons in a beginning industrial arts class would certainly get it on the last clue, someone who was for example looking to go to Vocational school after high school would likely get it much earlier. Further anyone who chose to study it could master the material and never need to turn a wrench. Just as one can learn to answer questions concerning the characters and plot lines of his novels, and a biography of Charles Dickens and never read any of his works.

I agree with earlier posting about surveying players, and in most cases this question would not be suitable for the majority of players in the system today. However as a coach and teacher in a small rural community that depends on agriculture and manufacuring, I also see the value of some knowledge outside the traditional fields cited . I only offer this to illustrate that different people consider different things to be of intellectual value and our words often can be misinterpreted as condesending to some. In the end wouldn't you prefer the driver on the interstate to have at least as good an understanding of the rules of the road as he does of the works of Walt Whitman, even if IHSA doesn't require that knowledge in a round.
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Re: Driver's Ed, Home Economics, etc

Post by mrgsmath »

Charbroil wrote:
Finally, I have to question your basic premise that Scholastic Bowl has to be accessible to all students, because that's a premise that no other sport aspires to. For example, playing tennis requires a basic degree of hand-eye coordination and athletic ability. Just as it would be absurd for me to argue during my next tennis match that I should be able to earn points for being able to shoot a basketball (never mind about being able to answer a Quiz Bowl question), shouldn't it also be absurd to say that players should be able to earn points in Quiz Bowl for being able to fix a car, cook a meal, or build a chair, assuming that there's no way to adequately write questions on those topics and that these topics take away from Quiz Bowl's stated purpose of testing knowledge?
Acctually it wasn't "my" basic premise, I was referencing IHSA's basic premise and I would have to correct you as it relates to the IHSA it does apply to all sports. I do not suggest that the inclusion of Vocational education questions should be made so that they can score points, but your arguement suggests that they should be excluded because others can't answer them.

Your tactic of presuming that I must be wrong since only your stated goal is to be accepted, despite the fact that my points are based on the IHSA stated goal (which is the subject before us),is without value. I acknowledged that the subjects are most likely not going to be accepted by this forum, just as this forum's views are unlikely to change the IHSA's view on the matter. However, my premise was that there was intellectual value to be found in the subjects and that questions could be developed and that I still feel I can support.
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Re: Driver's Ed, Home Economics, etc

Post by the return of AHAN »

KHAAAAN please wrote: Also, most quizbowlers are probably going to take a class on art history or biology before they take "Creative Cakes" (thank you Barrington High School).
You're welcome. :oops:
Hey, wait, it's called Creative Foods (I and II available). Get the course name right, Jeff!!

But on that note, I also can see other course offerings in the BHS Course Catalog that AREN'T covered in the IESA distro...
Nail Technology
Heating and Refrigeration
Fashion Design & Merchandising
Food Service Management
Sign Language
Child Development

I posit that good pyramidal toss-ups are available for the aspiring manicurist and our activity clearly discriminates against such players. :razz:
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Re: Driver's Ed, Home Economics, etc

Post by David Riley »

I say, leave creative cakes to Chef Duff and his crew. :grin:

I also agree with Jeff's post upthread. Let's survey the students who participate in Scholastic Bowl (and btw, these Southernillinois types should stop calling it "scholar bowl") and get data. We could do it for next year's Kickoffs, and hopefully this survey won't be skewed.
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Re: Driver's Ed, Home Economics, etc

Post by jonah »

Have we not learned yet that taking surveys of Illinois Scholastic Bowl people is never a good idea?
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Re: Driver's Ed, Home Economics, etc

Post by David Riley »

It would be if we had a decent random sample...
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Re: Driver's Ed, Home Economics, etc

Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh »

David Riley wrote:It would be if we had a decent random sample...
No, because no matter what Wheaton North would forget and we'd exclude Chicago again.
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Re: Driver's Ed, Home Economics, etc

Post by Stephen Colbert »

Can we arrange to have a representative of the IHSSBCA at each site to distribute/collect the survey, explain its importance, ensure coaches/teammates aren't unduly influencing the participants, and promptly return the results?
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Re: Driver's Ed, Home Economics, etc

Post by mrgsmath »

David Riley wrote:It would be if we had a decent random sample...
As much as the attitude seems to be that Southern Illinois is a problem. I would offer that the Central Kickoff had a high percentage of responses to this years survey, I would say close to 45% of those present. In many areas surveyed we had a higher percentage of respondents that would be considered pro "good quiz bowl" then the overall Statewide averages. I would also guess, based on various conversations I have had,that a majority would support moves to remove Drivers Ed, Home Economics, and the other areas listed.

I can't speak for other regions in the state but in the central area the move towards a more robust form of quiz bowl is in a positive direction, even if the movement is slower than some would like. Being rural and in many cases small enrollment, it will always be difficult for many of us to maintain the longterm quality programs needed to compete against many of the larger Chicago area schools. Conference obligations and local relationships will often mean that not all competitions will meet the high standards of this forum, but suggesting that anything less than total compliance and success against larger schools is somehow unacceptable and a sign of poor coaching is a major reason why some schools may not even try to change.
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Re: Driver's Ed, Home Economics, etc

Post by Marble-faced Bristle Tyrant »

Moving Day wrote:Nail Technology

I posit that good pyramidal toss-ups are available for the aspiring manicurist and our activity clearly discriminates against such players. :razz:
So it is referring to the keratin variety, and not the metal one?
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Re: Driver's Ed, Home Economics, etc

Post by Charbroil »

mrgsmath wrote:
Charbroil wrote:
Finally, I have to question your basic premise that Scholastic Bowl has to be accessible to all students, because that's a premise that no other sport aspires to...
Acctually it wasn't "my" basic premise, I was referencing IHSA's basic premise and I would have to correct you as it relates to the IHSA it does apply to all sports. I do not suggest that the inclusion of Vocational education questions should be made so that they can score points, but your arguement suggests that they should be excluded because others can't answer them.

Your tactic of presuming that I must be wrong since only your stated goal is to be accepted, despite the fact that my points are based on the IHSA stated goal (which is the subject before us),is without value. I acknowledged that the subjects are most likely not going to be accepted by this forum, just as this forum's views are unlikely to change the IHSA's view on the matter. However, my premise was that there was intellectual value to be found in the subjects and that questions could be developed and that I still feel I can support.
I think you may have misunderstood where I was coming from with my post; I certainly didn't intend to misrepresent your opinion using some sort of tactic. Since you said that "IHSA has as a prime objective to provide opportunities for all students" and then made some comments implying that you supported this premise, I acted accordingly; I apologize if I was mistaken.

Anyway, perhaps I should reexplain my argument.

First, I'm coming from the assumption that the purpose of Quiz Bowl (including Scholastic Bowl) is to differentiate which team has better knowledge of important academic subjects. Though my assumption doesn't explicitly say so, it's implied that what is considered "important academic subjects" is based on the high school curriculum because of my second assumption, which is:

Quiz Bowl questions should be answerable (the metric usually used is that 90% of tossups should be converted by the target audience of a tournament with 90-50-10% conversion for easy-medium-hard bonuses).

I think these are assumptions you can agree with me on, though if there's some fundamental flaw in them, please feel free to point that out.

Based on these two assumptions, I believe that home economics and vocational education are generally poor topics to write questions on because such questions generally fail to aspire to the above standards. For example, the tossup you imagined on "calipers" has a number of flaws which I feel are emblematic of the flaws most any tossup on a similar subject might have:
Caliper Tossup wrote:Without spending time in structuring the question, going from harder to easier, I would develop a question concerning "calipers" that might begin with clues that differentate it from other tools in that its measurement is attained through comparitive means as opposed to a thread ratios that are more easily subject to wear. (1) Next clues might be related to its early development as a tool for measuring internal and external dimensions often using a secondary scale for taking final measurements (2) but later models had a built in vernier scale system. (3) Current popular models utilizing dial and electronic readings have improved their accuracy significantly. (4) Name this device most commonly found in a 0 -6" model and commonly associated with lathe work. (5)
At point 1, the tossup fails to provide a clue which points unambiguously at the answer. Not only does that make it fairly unhelpful, but even worse, the clue is a hose because there are any number of instruments that measure using comparative methods, including most obviously a ruler or yardstick. I'd imagine that many tossups on industrial technology would suffer from this issue through the fact that most of the information learned by industrial technology students can't be defined via specific events, works, authors, etc. which define Quiz Bowl.

At point 2, I would still have trouble pinning down what this question is asking for because it remains vague. Not only are many instruments are used to measure internal and external dimensions, but some require second scales, such as inclinometers (which require the use of conversion tables).

Point 3 is more or less the only unambiguous clue before the giveaway of the question; as far as I'm aware, Vernier only names calipers and no other type of device. However, I'm also under the impression that Verner is fairly well known, so I can't help but wonder whether this is too easy for a middle clue.

At point 4, I've heard another ambiguous clue--I can think of half a dozen instruments this could apply to.

Point 5 contains two fairly decent clues, except that I'd question whether calipers are most commonly used in lathe work; we own calipers (and definitely don't do lathe work!) for a variety of precise measurements and we've used them in class for a variety of other tasks.

Now, I hope you don't think by dissecting your question I'm trying to attack you individually--I believe you're knowledgeable about calipers (certainly more than I am!) and aware of how pyramidality works. Rather, I'm just making the point that it seems fairly difficult to write industrial technology questions well.

Now, that's not to be said that a nominally pyramidal question on calipers couldn't be written, for example:
Caliper Tossup, Version Two wrote:An early example of this instrument was found in the wreck of a Greek ship off the Tuscan island of Giglio. The modern version was invented by Joseph R. Brown, it has been described as the first affordable tool for precision measurement. (1) Versions of this instrument include the oddleg as well as the inside and outside versions designed to measure the namesake versions of the quantity these instruments are meant to measure, though the best known version was designed by its namesake French scientist Pierre Vernier. For 10 points, name this instrument which uses a fixed and a moving jaw to measure an object's length, generally along a six inch ruler.

ANSWER: Vernier _Caliper_
Now, I don't have any delusions that this tossups is perfect (the wording could definitely use work, for starters), but it's at least reasonably pyramidal, at least as far as I can tell. Unfortunately, it only suffices to demonstrate the issues with home economics questions because:

1/ The lead in (the clues before 1) is more or less impossible to answer, since it comes from a report on a Greek shipwreck and a 90 year old book on American and British toolbuilders. Certainly, it's not realistic to expect high schoolers to know these clues. More importantly, though, these clues are also not important to the kinds of people who use calipers; whereas math or science history might be important to understand the derivation of formulas, etc., I don't think anyone would argue that knowing that the Greeks had calipers helps anyone to use or understand one.

2/ After point 1, we have a massive difficulty cliff. Not being an expert on the subject, I can't say for sure, but I imagine inside and outside calipers are fairly well known (since even I've seen them and recognize them). However, I don't really have any other clues to work with. As a result, all this question manages to differentiate is people who know things about calipers and people who don't, since most everyone who knows about calipers probably knows about both the inside & outside as well as the Vernier version, while everyone else will know that it's the thing that measures length (if they know it at all).

More importantly, though, I don't feel that this tossup really rewards industrial arts students for their knowledge of their topics; there's much more to using a caliper, I'd imagine, then knowing just a few names. Similarly, though as an electrical engineering student, I regularly have to use multimeters, I don't really see any value in being able to name historical multimeter designers or models, etc. In essence, such knowledge is trivial. In contrast, I think the knowledge tested on the liberal arts canon, including topics not normally covered in school, is important because it serves as the foundation of our society, and deep knowledge in those topics genuinely reflects a deeper understanding of those subjects (or at least is intended to), which does have genuine value.
mrgsmath wrote:However as a coach and teacher in a small rural community that depends on agriculture and manufacuring, I also see the value of some knowledge outside the traditional fields cited . I only offer this to illustrate that different people consider different things to be of intellectual value and our words often can be misinterpreted as condesending to some. In the end wouldn't you prefer the driver on the interstate to have at least as good an understanding of the rules of the road as he does of the works of Walt Whitman, even if IHSA doesn't require that knowledge in a round.
I certainly understand where you're coming from; however, because of the reasons I mentioned above, I simply don't think a preponderance of Home Economics and Industrial Technology questions (never mind about Driver's Education) is consistent with the purpose of Quiz Bowl. That doesn't mean that knowledge isn't important, rather, just as I would prefer that driver to know how to drive as well as how to swing a tennis racket but don't think that Driver's Ed should earn points in tennis, I don't think the ability to know driving rules should be tested in Quiz Bowl if it's not possible to write good questions on the topic.

Edit: I know you don't support Driver's Education questions either, but I think the above paragraph would work as well with "Home Economics" or "Industrial Technology" in lieu of Driver's Education.

Thus, in summation, I don't think that Home Economics and Vocational Education constitute valid topics for Quiz Bowl because not only is it nearly impossible to write good questions on them, but even pyramidal questions on the those topics largely ask about trivial knowledge of them. While I cannot say that such topics are never legitimate topics for questions, as it stands, such questions are disproportionately bad as written and thus should be reduced in number or folded into some sort of miscellaneous category.
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Re: Driver's Ed, Home Economics, etc

Post by Charbroil »

Also, an additional point I forgot to mention. I sincerely doubt that a significant number of good home economics and vocational education questions can be written because people simply don't have much knowledge of those topics to answer such questions, even at the giveaway. Just because knowledge of such topics is important (which isn't necessarily true in my mind, in the sense that deep knowledge of such topics is often trivial) doesn't mean you can include them in Quiz Bowl, any more than you can include large numbers of questions on, for example, organic chemistry. Thus:
I do not suggest that the inclusion of Vocational education questions should be made so that they can score points, but your arguement suggests that they should be excluded because others can't answer them.
You're right in saying that I think questions which people can't answer should be excluded, but I would think that it's obvious that Quiz Bowl questions should be on topics people actually either know or should know (granted, you could make the argument that people should have a deep knowledge of industrial technology, but as I mentioned above, such knowledge generally devolves into trivia).

Also, I persist in saying that excluding Vocational Education and Home Economics is not inconsistent with the mission of IHSA. Assuming that the mission of IHSA Scholastic Bowl is to be a competitive activity which promotes intellectual curiosity and superior knowledge of the school curriculum, I don't feel that the current distribution with its amount of Vocational Education and Home Economics fit this description because it's not realistic to write the number of such questions which IHSA requires that adequately demonstrate a team's superior knowledge of those topics.
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Re: Driver's Ed, Home Economics, etc

Post by Edward Elric »

styxman wrote:
David Riley wrote:It would be if we had a decent random sample...
No, because no matter what Wheaton North would forget and we'd exclude Chicago again.
If they do this again next year, I'll make sure to remind Ms. Kidd at kickoff so we won't have a fiasco again.
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Re: Driver's Ed, Home Economics, etc

Post by jdeliverer »

Charbroil wrote:Long post explaining why it's hard to write good tossups about calipers

Great post. What's a caliper?
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Re: Driver's Ed, Home Economics, etc

Post by Marble-faced Bristle Tyrant »

jdeliverer wrote:
Charbroil wrote:Long post explaining why it's hard to write good tossups about calipers

Great post. What's a caliper?
Wikipedia tells all.

They're fun to play with.
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Re: Driver's Ed, Home Economics, etc

Post by Stephen Colbert »

If the argument is being made to keep home economics, industrial arts, agriculture, etc. (subjects more likely to be taught in smaller, more rural schools and therefore benefit those schools) to "equalize" or balance out the "complex" computational mathematics (I guess its being argued that since calculus is more likely to be offered in bigger, more suburban schools, those schools have an advantage at computation) in the distribution, I'm sure no one would have a problem if we just removed home economics, industrial arts, agriculture, and computational math from the distribution entirely. Everybody wins!
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Re: Driver's Ed, Home Economics, etc

Post by David Riley »

From your mouth to God's...er....IHSA's ears.
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Re: Driver's Ed, Home Economics, etc

Post by Dan-Don »

Guys, you are dissecting a pyramidal tossup on calipers. I'm not even gonna start again with the many problems I see with this action, let alone the notion of asking that question. I'll just say this: this thread should, nay must, be moved to the Forbidden Zone for its sheer stupidity. Tempban me for backseat modding, if you will--at least it's an escape from this nonsense.

Edit: coherence
Last edited by Dan-Don on Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Driver's Ed, Home Economics, etc

Post by Boeing X-20, Please! »

Dan-Don wrote: Tempban me for backseat nodding
Stop falling asleep in the car on the way to tournaments
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Re: Driver's Ed, Home Economics, etc

Post by Dan-Don »

Utahraptor wrote:
Dan-Don wrote: Tempban me for backseat nodding
Stop falling asleep in the car on the way to tournaments
Well that was a stupid typo. But don't let it undercut my point!
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Re: Driver's Ed, Home Economics, etc

Post by Nine-Tenths Ideas »

In my mission to appear in half the threads in the Forbidden Zone, I'm posting here just in case.
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Re: Driver's Ed, Home Economics, etc

Post by Stained Diviner »

Cheer up. If calipers is moved from Science to Industrial Arts, it will be a step forward.
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Re: Driver's Ed, Home Economics, etc

Post by jonah »

That is an insult to my Bessemer process tossup!
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Re: Driver's Ed, Home Economics, etc

Post by Boeing X-20, Please! »

jonah wrote:That is an insult to my Bessemer process tossup!
That's just real science though.
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Re: Driver's Ed, Home Economics, etc

Post by Stephen Colbert »

Moving Day wrote:Nail Technology
I smell a family/consumer science toss-up on acetone.
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Re: Driver's Ed, Home Economics, etc

Post by mrgsmath »

It seems that I can't post without stirring the pot.

First, let me say that I in fact support a general rule for excluding the questions from catagories such as drivers ed and other vocational subjects. My reason is simple, while many matches can hinge on one question, they should be determined by it being the only question in one subject. As such quiz bowl should be limited to 5-6 subject areas, depending on the number of questions per round. While some teams may dominate an area and win the match, that reflects positively on a well rounded team and not a quirk of knowledge someone picked up watching "This Old House".

The responses I made to a variety of others was that the arguements being made were not supportable in the realm of the IHSA.

I heard 3 arguments that I presented challenges on:

1) There was no intellectual value to the subject area and therefore they should be excluded. Most at IHSA, and I personally, would find this statement both offensive and unsupported.

2) Questions could not be written in such areas. (hence the "caliper" thread, in which I didn't write a question, only offered several levels of difficuty upon which questions could be written.) In this case the IHSA would simply accept the challenge and work on more question development.

3) Non-one could answer them since most Quiz Bowlers don't take Vocational Ed classes. IHSA would cite that as the main reason to include such questions in an effort to attract players from such fields of study.

IHSA has set as one of its core principles to be inclusive to all students, and as such if it is taught in school it should be included in Scholastic Bowl. The arguments above are rejected on their very face as counter to that philosophy. If you are going to bring change it will not be with these arguments, since each will be countered in the same manner I have done. To further the problem your eventual response was to make fun of the IHSA and return to your own world. End result is no change to the status quo.

I would suggest that a better approach is to point out that such areas are covered extensively in IESA and that their inclusion in IHSA would be better served as part of interdisciplinary questions that might reward the occasional person with a focused knowledge in the given areas without excluding others with a more broad knowledge base. Ultimately they would be eliminated as clues in even these questions and life would go on.
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Re: Driver's Ed, Home Economics, etc

Post by Mechanical Beasts »

mrgsmath wrote:3) Non-one could answer them since most Quiz Bowlers don't take Vocational Ed classes. IHSA would cite that as the main reason to include such questions in an effort to attract players from such fields of study.
Mark's correct to criticize this argument. In itself it's not a reason in itself not to ask a subject. In the above, you could substitute philosophy for "Vocational Ed" and good quizbowl advocates for "IHSA" and you'd, well, be in a bit of a bind.
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Re: Driver's Ed, Home Economics, etc

Post by Monk »

It occurs to me that every other IHSA activity has rules based on tradition, not logic, theory, and discussion. Looking at IHSA format as an attempt at a rational act doesn't make a lot of sense.

By the way, the people who know vocational subjects are too busy building things to ever go to a tournament. And Home Economics students, at least in my school, rarely even attend class.
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Re: Driver's Ed, Home Economics, etc

Post by Whiter Hydra »

Isaacbh wrote:In my mission to appear in half the threads in the Forbidden Zone, I'm posting here just in case.
Just start quoting The Waste Land. You'll be there in no time.
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Re: Driver's Ed, Home Economics, etc

Post by Captain Sinico »

I'd rather suggest that you all stop making series of unfunny off-topic posts in this (potentially, at least) productive thread, lest your account appear in my personal wasteland (of banned accounts.)

MaS
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Re: Driver's Ed, Home Economics, etc

Post by Captain Sinico »

Monk wrote:It occurs to me that every other IHSA activity has rules based on tradition, not logic, theory, and discussion. Looking at IHSA format as an attempt at a rational act doesn't make a lot of sense.
I don't think I agree; it's clear there are many factors that decide the IHSA's rules. For example, the IHSA uses largely the same rules for most sports that are used nationally; there are very few special IHSA rules for football or basketball, for example.
Quizbowl is exceptional in part because there wasn't as strong a national consensus on what constitutes the game at the time the IHSA began sanctioning it. However, that doesn't mean that things need to continue on that track forever. Conversely, there's every reason to suspect that the IHSA's quizbowl rules will change to reflect national ones once there exist national standards along the lines of those that operate in other activities.

MaS
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Re: Driver's Ed, Home Economics, etc

Post by mrgsmath »

Captain Sinico wrote:
Monk wrote:It occurs to me that every other IHSA activity has rules based on tradition, not logic, theory, and discussion. Looking at IHSA format as an attempt at a rational act doesn't make a lot of sense.
I don't think I agree; it's clear there are many factors that decide the IHSA's rules. For example, the IHSA uses largely the same rules for most sports that are used nationally; there are very few special IHSA rules for football or basketball, for example.
Quizbowl is exceptional in part because there wasn't as strong a national consensus on what constitutes the game at the time the IHSA began sanctioning it. However, that doesn't mean that things need to continue on that track forever. Conversely, there's every reason to suspect that the IHSA's quizbowl rules will change to reflect national ones once there exist national standards along the lines of those that operate in other activities.

MaS
I think this is hitting the nail on the head. But development of that national standard will require time, patience and cooperation. It also could benefit from more conversations like this that advance the cause rather than statements that irritate the unconverted.
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