Scheduling intra-school matches

[bsmith]

In several statistical reports this year, I've noticed that TDs are doing the right thing and splitting A, B, and C teams into separate prelim brackets where possible. Diversity in competition is good!

That being said, some bracket situations force the TD to set up matches with teams from the same school (I had a bracket of six where four were from Lisgar...). In those cases, I noticed the intra-school matches were being held late in the round-robin: in one case, an intra-school match was held in the last round where a playoff spot was on the line for one team but not the other.

Intra-school prelim matches should be held in the first round. If there are 3 school teams in a bracket, get those matches over with in the first three rounds. I can think of good reasons why intra-school matches should be held in the first round, and I can't think of a reason why they shouldn't. Why?

1. An intra-school match is more forgiving for getting through first-round hiccups like a reader figuring out a strange buzzer system or a outside scorekeeper learning the ropes for the first time.

2. If the school is relatively new to quizbowl, a good moderator can read the match and cover the basics for two teams at once.

3. If a school or coach has a low moral code, there is no way they can know in the first round if one team should throw a match for the other. I'm not saying that this happens, and I don't wish to accuse any teams of match-fixing, but there's no reason why a TD should invite the possibility with a last-round intra-school match.

In summary, get intra-school prelim matches finished as early as possible in a tournament. Playoffs are different: if an A and B team meet in a top bracket, they're both good and not worried about the reasons I mentioned earlier.

If you can give a good reason why the same school should not meet in the first round, please, speak up and I will adjust my future tournaments accordingly.

ps: before people go pot & kettle at me, scheduling 4 school teams in a 6-team RR without a last-round intra-school match is impossible. I did the best I could with the circumstances.

[Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)]

Who cares?

[bsmith]

Who cares?

The schedule suggestion is extremely easy to implement and there are no obvious downsides. I don't understand your opposition to it.

[Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)]

I don't think the upsides really matter either. Teams are teams, teams play games, it doesn't matter when. I agree you should keep B teams and A teams from a school separated in the prelims, but if your schedule is a full round robin, such as 4 Lisgar teams plus two others, the games all matter equally and I can't imagine any real situation where a game plays any differently between intra-school matches and inter-school matches. Also, in the example you gave of 4 Lisgar teams, there is simply no choice but to play some of those games later, unless you want the 2 other teams to have consecutive byes for 2 rounds, which is an extremely unsatisfying setup in my opinion. Thus, your advice seems to not be applicable in the very example you brought up. In your 3 teams example, again, you have to run that over the course of three rounds. I can't imagine what is so different about Toronto A and C meeting in round 3 instead of meeting in round five. If teams really are playing these games differently and it's affecting the outcomes of tournaments, then teams are being stupid, and I simply can't believe that's the case.

[Auks Ran Ova]

Who cares?

The schedule suggestion is extremely easy to implement and there are no obvious downsides. I don't understand your opposition to it.

I think what your friend and mine, Charlie Dees, meant to say was "Huh. Has this ever been an issue, or something that teams have had problems with, before? In my experience it has not!"

EDIT: I have been proven correct.

[jdeliverer]

1. Schools that have B teams are usually not as new to quizbowl (there are exceptions of course)
2. I can't imagine teams throwing games to their B teams, so they would know to throw it to the A team anyway
3. If the B team has a legitimate chance of beating your A team, there's probably something very wrong with the way you've set up your teams

[Charbroil]

3. If the B team has a legitimate chance of beating your A team, there's probably something very wrong with the way you've set up your teams

It's only in Illinois that you're obligated to put your best players on A team--there are plenty of teams that I know of, both collegiate and high school, that play evenly matched A/B teams.

[Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)]

None of those things are particularly good advice - your B team should not be throwing games, they should simply be playing to the best of their ability and letting whatever happens happens. B teams beat A teams frequently - in 2007 at Nationals TJ B beat TJ A - and it's completely a good thing that they played the game and let what happens happen. I also disagree with your assessment of how a B team being good means they haven't built their teams right. There is such thing as a school having 7 or 8 players who are all very good and who make competitive combinations. Schools like Dorman, TJ, and State College very often have competitive B teams, and it's not their fault if they have more than a team's worth of good players and have to split them into two teams that are both extremely strong. Look at the facts a little closer.
Also Charles, that's not even the case - the teams I listed above literally have had examples of situations where they play their best four on one team and second four on another team and they both are so strong they can potentially win any game depending on what packet gets read.

[the return of AHAN]

FWIW, Northwestern University's First (and apparently only) Jr. Wildcat resulted in Barrington Station B defeating Barrington Station A. I'm quite happy that the 4 pools used saw 3 Station teams in separate pools.

[Angry Babies in Love]

3. If the B team has a legitimate chance of beating your A team, there's probably something very wrong with the way you've set up your teams

This is not true. There were multiple occasions (at least three) in my two and a half years at RM which RM B has defeated or came within a very small margin of defeating RM A. These teams were based on how well the players play. Some players have good days, some players have bad days, and when a school has more than 4 or 5 excellent players (like RM did two years ago, and like many programs do now) these games can be very close.
It really doesn't matter what time B plays A, a game is a game.

[Papa's in the House]

If you're already forced into a situation where there are intraschool matches, then it shouldn't really matter when they play one another since everyone playing should be doing so with the intention to win. If they aren't playing with that intention, then they'd probably lose whether the match was earlier in the day or not, thus making the point of when the match is held moot.

[jonpin]

Most people have said about what I would say: Obviously keep teams from the same school apart as much as possible. Within the same group, it really shouldn't matter, but I prefer aesthetically to get them over with in the first half of the schedule than later. It just avoids any unfounded comments that "Massive School A knew they needed a win and lots of points in their last game, and of course they blew out Massive School C."