Is this rude? Should it be against the rules?

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Is this rude? Should it be against the rules?

Post by quizbowllee » Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:28 am

The following practice has become WAY too common - particularly in Alabama.

Several teams that we have played over the past few years take it upon themselves to yell "STALL" at our players when they have buzzed in. It is very frustrating to our players to be trying to come up with an answer after buzzing in and have an obnoxious player from the opposing team (and sometimes all four players in unison) yell "stall" at them. Usually, this takes place well before the 3 second time limit has expired. But, even if the time HAS expired, it is NOT the job of the opposing team to call "time," "stall," etc. on a team. This job should fall solely on the moderator or timekeeping official.

There are one or two teams in Alabama - I won't call you out, you know who you are - that do this ad nauseum. Please stop. It is very rude.

Also, I would like to propose a rule that makes this practice illegal.

What do the rest of you think? Do you agree or am I being unreasonable?
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Re: Is this rude? Should it be against the rules?

Post by AKKOLADE » Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:33 am

Yeah, that would fall under unsportsmanlike conduct to me.
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Re: Is this rude? Should it be against the rules?

Post by Cheynem » Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:36 am

This is pretty rude--I think a simple solution would be to just have moderators issue warnings and then dock five points perhaps after a further infraction.

I mean, there are times in very close matches when it seems like a stall is taking place, that one can get frustrated and perhaps blurt out something (it's happened to me), but it should not happen on a regular basis.
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Re: Is this rude? Should it be against the rules?

Post by jonah » Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:39 am

I don't know the specifics of Alabama rules, but in ACF:
13. Answering when another player, whether on the same team or the opposing team, has buzzed in will be treated exactly like illegal conferring. This means that the nonbuzzing player who gives the answer earns a -5 for his team when applicable, and his team is locked out of answering that tossup. As in rule E.5, the moderator will call conferring only, without indicating whether the blurted answer is correct, and the other team's members may consider the blurted answer if they buzz in later.
What you describe sounds to me like it falls under this rule. And yes, it's certainly unsportsmanlike.
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Re: Is this rude? Should it be against the rules?

Post by Down and out in Quintana Roo » Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:40 am

I have never seen that before and that is extremely rude, and incredibly immature. You're not unreasonable for being upset about this. I would blow a gasket if this happened just once in a game, regardless of it was with my CR kids or if i was just moderating. It's really not cool.

Are the teams' coaches aware of this conduct? If so, are they condoning it? Or ignoring it?

EDIT: spelling.
Last edited by Down and out in Quintana Roo on Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is this rude? Should it be against the rules?

Post by Captain Sinico » Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:47 am

Baskets everywhere rejoice, I guess. And yeah, that should be and probably is illegal. Most sets of rules rightly forbid anyone else talking during a person's buzz. I do wish that timing rules were enforced more regularly/at all in the college game; while I can't speak to that in Alabama high school quizbowl, perhaps that's part of the issue.

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Re: Is this rude? Should it be against the rules?

Post by quizbowllee » Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:52 am

Dr. Isaac Yankem, DDS wrote:
Are the teams' coaches aware of this conduct? If so, are they condoning it? Or ignoring it?
Based on the fact that it occurs almost exclusively within a handful of teams and that these teams do it year after year (with the coach(es) in the rooms) I can only assume that the teams are being coached to do this.
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Re: Is this rude? Should it be against the rules?

Post by Edward Powers » Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:54 am

It is very rude and undermines the sportsmanship & collegiality that is generally exhibited by most teams. Of course periodic displays of emotion will occur in matches, especially closely contested matches, but what you have described is obviously coordinated and therefore deliberately planned. Normally one would think that a simple warning from a moderator would be enough to curb the occasional rudenesses that are sometimes seen but are generally simply impetuous outbursts, but planned rudeness probably does require a rule, from point deductions at the modest end to disqualification if it continues. Finally, I understand not wanting to name teams on a public site, for innocent students from the school identified, as well as the school as a whole, could get 'tarred with same brush'...But if it persists, perhaps you should identify them so that TD's in the future have the option of not even accepting a registration from the school or schools involved, provided of course that this behavior can be corroborated by other schools & coaches who do respect the basic civilities of competition.

Good luck with this problem.
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Re: Is this rude? Should it be against the rules?

Post by quizbowllee » Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:01 am

Suffice it to say that one of the teams in Alabama that is notorious for doing this is one of the major state competitors over the past few years - and it's not Hoover.

That's all I'm going to say about that.
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Re: Is this rude? Should it be against the rules?

Post by Down and out in Quintana Roo » Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:03 am

quizbowllee wrote:
Dr. Isaac Yankem, DDS wrote:
Are the teams' coaches aware of this conduct? If so, are they condoning it? Or ignoring it?
Based on the fact that it occurs almost exclusively within a handful of teams and that these teams do it year after year (with the coach(es) in the rooms) I can only assume that the teams are being coached to do this.
Wow. Ha, you must be A LOT nicer than i am because i would have confronted both the team and the coach about this the instant that it happened. And yeah, i wouldn't mind calling them out on it either in a public forum. Hopefully you can find some allies in your area to possibly talk to a coach or two about this as a group, so you don't feel like some renegade trying to do the right thing all by yourself.
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Re: Is this rude? Should it be against the rules?

Post by Deviant Insider » Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:04 am

I could see this as reasonable conduct if a Moderator was not calling time and more than three seconds had passed and it was happening about once a year. That doesn't seem to be what you are describing though.

If I was coaching and the situation you described happened, I would politely say some things to the Moderator that everybody could hear. (If it was a timed match, I would first ask the Moderator to stop the clock.) I would only say things that are completely obvious to anybody with half a brain, such as:
1) It is the Moderator's job to call time, which they should do after three seconds.
2) If a Moderator is not doing that job properly, there are appropriate ways to let the Moderator know and inappropriate ways. Appropriate ways generally are not done while somebody is answering a question.
3) Yelling Stall, especially before three seconds is up and on a repeated basis, is extremely inappropriate and unsportsmanlike. You would not permit your own team to do it, and if you were moderating you would not permit either team to do it.

If you see this coming before a match starts, you should ask the Moderator to clarify rules regarding timing and talking while the other team is answering before the match.
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Re: Is this rude? Should it be against the rules?

Post by dtaylor4 » Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:30 am

If it happens, take it up with the moderator, and then inform the TD immediately.

As a moderator, I would neg the team every time it happened.

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Re: Is this rude? Should it be against the rules?

Post by Edward Powers » Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:31 am

The fact that it is a major state competitor is, intrinsically, irrelevant---this behavior should not be tolerated, period. But in another sense, it makes the behavior even worse, for success often breeds imitation, so this boorishness can possibly be copied and even pointed to as a model by other immature and emotionally suggestible teams. Further, since it is a major team in the state, it probably also attends more tournaments than most other schools, thus, spreading its venom more broadly. Finally, if the coach is in the room repeatedly when this happens, it is reasonable to conclude that it is a coaching tactic designed to intimidate and bully opponents and thus is not only contemptible, but also IN-TOLERABLE---in the literal sense---it should NEVER be tolerated. And if this is a behavior that is habitually repeated, this coach is dishonoring his school and giving it a terrible reputation, so perhaps his administrators should be contacted if it persists. And if the coach is innocent in all of this somehow---a conclusion almost impossible to believe if it is habitually practiced while he is in the room---then the coach is grossly incompetent and he has allowed thugs to take over his program, in which case this too should be reported to his administration. But my guess is that it is the coaching tactic of a bully, and their success as a major program in your state should never be grounds for looking the other way---in fact, since its success might allow it to appear to be one of the flagship schools for Alabama when competing regionally and nationally, it should make every Alabamian involved in quizbowl want to immediately challenge and stop this team dead in it tracks, in the interest of protecting Alabama's honor and reputation within the quizbowl world as a whole, but even more important, within the community of schools and citizens of the larger public world to which we all belong.
Last edited by Edward Powers on Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is this rude? Should it be against the rules?

Post by Dresden_The_BIG_JERK » Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:32 am

dtaylor4 wrote:If it happens, take it up with the moderator, and then inform the TD immediately.

As a moderator, I would neg the team every time it happened.
Ditto on that...I don't even think I'd give them a warning if they were yelling simultaneously. That's heinous.
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Re: Is this rude? Should it be against the rules?

Post by rjaguar3 » Mon Oct 12, 2009 1:14 pm

Wow. And I thought certain Illinois coaches (I won't say who) were bad.
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Re: Is this rude? Should it be against the rules?

Post by Kouign Amann » Mon Oct 12, 2009 1:29 pm

This is even worse than talking during someone else's bonus. Wow. Yeah, if I was a player in this game, I'd probably flip one, and then talk to the mod at halftime or something. If I was a mod, I'd give one warning along the lines of "I'm the mod around here; let me do my job" and then just neg them over and over until they stopped. This is an abominable practice that needs to stop. If coaches really are behind this, there needs to be some form of sanction here. I'm not sure what this should involve, but coaches, who are presumably responsible adults, need to know better.
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Re: Is this rude? Should it be against the rules?

Post by cvdwightw » Mon Oct 12, 2009 2:35 pm

I would find the podcast of last year's HSNCT finals and play the relevant portion to the coaches. Explain to these coaches that this was a timing decision that cost a team a national championship, and yet there was no instance of unsportsmanlike behavior on either team affected by that decision.
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Re: Is this rude? Should it be against the rules?

Post by ... and the chaos of Mexican modernity » Mon Oct 12, 2009 4:12 pm

Prof.Whoopie wrote:This is even worse than talking during someone else's bonus.
I did actually have this come up when I moderated during the Maryland Fall Tournament. Not to point any specifics out, but it was something along the lines of complaining of how easy the other teams bonuses are. I wonder what should the moderator do if one team is questioning the tu's and bonuses and constanstly complaining about what is right or not? Do they neg them if it's constant complaining?
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Re: Is this rude? Should it be against the rules?

Post by Mechanical Beasts » Mon Oct 12, 2009 5:34 pm

The Mountie wrote:I did actually have this come up when I moderated during the Maryland Fall Tournament. Not to point any specifics out, but it was something along the lines of complaining of how easy the other teams bonuses are. I wonder what should the moderator do if one team is questioning the tu's and bonuses and constanstly complaining about what is right or not? Do they neg them if it's constant complaining?
I'd say that it depends on the circumstances: if it's complaining, like, between questions, then that's poor sportsmanship (and something I've been guilty of. If it's audible and during their opponents' time, then eventually something more has to happen to stop it.
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Re: Is this rude? Should it be against the rules?

Post by wilsonmathteacher » Mon Oct 12, 2009 5:46 pm

The Mountie wrote:
Prof.Whoopie wrote:This is even worse than talking during someone else's bonus.
I did actually have this come up when I moderated during the Maryland Fall Tournament. Not to point any specifics out, but it was something along the lines of complaining of how easy the other teams bonuses are. I wonder what should the moderator do if one team is questioning the tu's and bonuses and constanstly complaining about what is right or not? Do they neg them if it's constant complaining?
I'm not sure if you are talking about Wilson, but I know that my kids were guilty of the talking and complaining about the ease of the other teams bonuses :mad: (although I am sure they weren't complaining about moderator decisions). I spoke to them rather pointedly and it will NOT be happening again. I think that it is sad that I have to enforce and reinforce polite behavior, but there it is.

I do think that the expectations need to come from the coach and I've discovered that they need to be clearly laid out, even for kids who you think are mature.
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Re: Is this rude? Should it be against the rules?

Post by Matthew D » Mon Oct 12, 2009 6:17 pm

I have noticed as of late that there seems to be less polite play in general from some off color remarks by players that really didn't need to be made to yelling stall during someone else's buzz or talking loudly during someone else's bonus questions... I guess we honestly need to work, as coaches, to remind players that it doesn't really take that much to be nice to someone or treat people the way you would want to be treated. Its called class...
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Re: Is this rude? Should it be against the rules?

Post by Nine-Tenths Ideas » Mon Oct 12, 2009 6:28 pm

Yeah, tact is definitely something that the quizbowl community in general could work on. One teammate I had in the past would overanalyze every team, and he would often say very loudly things like "Haven't you seen these guys play before? We have nothing to worry about," even though he was told to shut up.
I still hold a grudge against a fairly well-known player because, playing his team freshman year, he loudly reassured his team, "Don't worry guys, we're playing a two-man team here." [I was not one of the two people.]
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Re: Is this rude? Should it be against the rules?

Post by The King's Flight to the Scots » Mon Oct 12, 2009 6:40 pm

Aldo Montoya wrote:Yeah, tact is definitely something that the quizbowl community in general could work on. One teammate I had in the past would overanalyze every team, and he would often say very loudly things like "Haven't you seen these guys play before? We have nothing to worry about," even though he was told to shut up.
I still hold a grudge against a fairly well-known player because, playing his team freshman year, he loudly reassured his team, "Don't worry guys, we're playing a two-man team here." [I was not one of the two people.]
I think you told me who you're talking about. Ironically, player X's team gradually became a one man team. Player X was not the one man.

Also, let's avoid giving moderators more power than they need to finish the match. Many moderators at high school tournaments are teachers, meaning they're inexperienced and overzealous; some moderators I've had made it clear that they disliked our team. Giving them power to neg teams for "bad sportsmanship" can't end well.
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Re: This is rude. It should be against the rules.

Post by the return of AHAN » Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:03 pm

Journey to the Planets wrote: ... let's avoid giving moderators more power than they need to finish the match. Many moderators at high school tournaments are teachers, meaning they're inexperienced and overzealous; some moderators I've had made it clear that they disliked our team. Giving them power to neg teams for "bad sportsmanship" can't end well.
So, in Mr. Bollinger's world, yelling "stall" when an opponent hesitates after buzzing is... okee-dokee? If I've misinterpreted your stance, please tell me how a moderator is supposed to handle such a situation.

I'm also intrigued by the equation of teacher = overzealous.

edit:punctuation
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Re: Is this rude? Should it be against the rules?

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:07 pm

The only time you should ever receive negative points in a match is if you buzz in while the moderator is reading a tossup and give a wrong answer. Moderators can do things like tell players they need to stop or threaten to make them leave the room, but at no point is it acceptable for a moderator to actively change the score of a game due to behavior that doesn't actually have to do with the questions.
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Re: This is rude. It should be against the rules.

Post by The King's Flight to the Scots » Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:09 pm

Max Moon wrote:
Journey to the Planets wrote: ... let's avoid giving moderators more power than they need to finish the match. Many moderators at high school tournaments are teachers, meaning they're inexperienced and overzealous; some moderators I've had made it clear that they disliked our team. Giving them power to neg teams for "bad sportsmanship" can't end well.
So, in Mr. Bollinger's world, yelling "stall" when an opponent hesitates after buzzing is okee-dokee. If I've misinterpreted your stance, please tell me how a moderator is supposed to handle such a situation.
I'm also intrigued by the equation of teacher = overzealous.
You're totally misreading me, then. What Mr. Henry mentioned is totally uncalled for. I was talking about Zach's post about complaining during questions; I should have been more clear about that. Also, I don't mean teachers so much as "people unfamiliar with quizbowl who think they're a gameshow host".
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Re: Is this rude? Should it be against the rules?

Post by jonah » Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:12 pm

Jeremy Gibbs Free Energy wrote:The only time you should ever receive negative points in a match is if you buzz in while the moderator is reading a tossup and give a wrong answer. Moderators can do things like tell players they need to stop or threaten to make them leave the room, but at no point is it acceptable for a moderator to actively change the score of a game due to behavior that doesn't actually have to do with the questions.
As I pointed out above, ACF rules stipulate that illegal conferring is treated like an incorrect answer, so if it's the first instance and is during the question, it's a neg. Do you disagree with that, then?
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Re: Is this rude? Should it be against the rules?

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:20 pm

Sure, that can be a neg, because that falls under the basic heading of answering a question incorrectly while a tossup is being read (albeit in an untraditional way.) My point is more that just because somebody breaks a rule doesn't mean the way to deal with it is take points away from their team. Yelling "THAT'S A STALL" should be dealt with by a moderator telling the player to shut up or else they will be asked to leave, not with someone losing points. Thing's aren't black and white when it comes to punishment in quizbowl, and taking away points is not the answer.
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Re: Is this rude? Should it be against the rules?

Post by at your pleasure » Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:22 pm

I actually like the idea of kicking disruptive players out of the room. It's certainly a bigger disincentive than a neg 5.
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Re: Is this rude? Should it be against the rules?

Post by jonah » Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:29 pm

Jeremy Gibbs Free Energy wrote:Sure, that can be a neg, because that falls under the basic heading of answering a question incorrectly while a tossup is being read (albeit in an untraditional way.) My point is more that just because somebody breaks a rule doesn't mean the way to deal with it is take points away from their team. Yelling "THAT'S A STALL" should be dealt with by a moderator telling the player to shut up or else they will be asked to leave, not with someone losing points. Thing's aren't black and white when it comes to punishment in quizbowl, and taking away points is not the answer.
I don't necessarily think it isn't better to kick disruptive players out of the room (after a warning, unless the conduct is really really egregious). However, I think negging someone for yelling "THAT'S A STALL" falls under that rule (perhaps only technically), since they are talking during a tossup when they haven't buzzed in. Maybe it's not "substantive" in the usual way--that is, they're not attempting to answer it because they thought their light was on--but presumably it's strictly moderator's discretion to determine whether communication is substantive.

Certainly, the problem really should be addressed via the coaching. If the players are doing this at the behest of their coach, the latter has no business being in a coaching position, or really in any education-related position.
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Re: Is this rude? Should it be against the rules?

Post by the return of AHAN » Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:30 pm

I see. In IESA, there's no provision for deducting points, but there are rules that allow a moderator to eject a player for unsportsmanlike conduct. I've never seen it happen, but it's there. Of course, I primarily coach at the middle school level and such kids simply look inmy direction if they think rules aren't being followed, sometimes with an expression that says, "Aren't you going to say anything?"
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Re: Is this rude? Should it be against the rules?

Post by Edward Powers » Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:32 pm

My guess is that Mr. Bolllinger does not really support boorish behavior or worse during a contest---I suspect he's worried about over-reaction by moderators---but he can of course speak for himself. Still, the fact that some moderators might over-react does not really address the issue raised in this thread---what to do when a team is apparently coached to bully and intimidate opponents? And surely the moderator must be empowered to sanction such behavior in order to maintain the simple and basic civilities essential to any competitive enterprise. Further, the TD himself must be apprised of such behavior if it is repeated---else the bullies are tolerated and doubtless also win some close contests as a consequence, undermining every possible reason to participate in quizbowl in the first place if such results are allowed to stand. So, rather than worry about over-reactions of moderators, notice how your own teammate---Aidan---reacted when he heard of this problem. And surely Aidan was instinctively correct to react in a way that reveals his contempt for such behavior. But that is precisely why the moderator, in such a case, must be both empowered to respond IMMEDIATELY, so that students like Aidan trying to be sportsmen do not feel compelled to do something they might regret later. The moderator therefore must, in my humble opinion, also be supported by all who love quizbowl, else the bullies & thugs will trigger more than the proverbial 'bird' in some rooms---and, ultimately, understandably so if standards of civility and sportsmanship are not rigorously and immediately defended. But again, it is my guess that Mr. Bollinger would agree with this and understand that moderators who reveal biases towards teams is a separate issue and one also worthy of of being treated similarly if discovered, for it is a different kind of bullying, perhaps, but it too is beyond the pale and should also never be given any latitude either if and when such biased behavior is expressed by a moderator.
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Re: Is this rude? Should it be against the rules?

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:35 pm

jonah wrote:I don't necessarily think it isn't better to kick disruptive players out of the room (after a warning, unless the conduct is really really egregious). However, I think negging someone for yelling "THAT'S A STALL" falls under that rule (perhaps only technically), since they are talking during a tossup when they haven't buzzed in. Maybe it's not "substantive" in the usual way--that is, they're not attempting to answer it because they thought their light was on--but presumably it's strictly moderator's discretion to determine whether communication is substantive.
I disagree with your assertion that it technically falls under this category for one obvious reason:
By definition, them yelling STALL has to have occurred after someone else buzzed. The first person who buzzes on a tossup is the only person who can possibly neg it.
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Re: Is this rude? Should it be against the rules?

Post by jonah » Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:40 pm

Jeremy Gibbs Free Energy wrote:
jonah wrote:I don't necessarily think it isn't better to kick disruptive players out of the room (after a warning, unless the conduct is really really egregious). However, I think negging someone for yelling "THAT'S A STALL" falls under that rule (perhaps only technically), since they are talking during a tossup when they haven't buzzed in. Maybe it's not "substantive" in the usual way--that is, they're not attempting to answer it because they thought their light was on--but presumably it's strictly moderator's discretion to determine whether communication is substantive.
I disagree with your assertion that it technically falls under this category for one obvious reason:
By definition, them yelling STALL has to have occurred after someone else buzzed. The first person who buzzes on a tossup is the only person who can possibly neg it.
Unless I'm misreading it, the rule I cited above indicates that substantive conferring results in a neg for the person doing it (whether s/he is on the team that buzzed or not), if the person who had actually buzzed in was the first person to do so.
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Re: Is this rude? Should it be against the rules?

Post by The King's Flight to the Scots » Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:44 pm

Edward Powers wrote:My guess is that Mr. Bolllinger does not really support boorish behavior or worse during a contest---I suspect he's worried about over-reaction by moderators---but he can of course speak for himself. Still, the fact that some moderators might over-react does not really address the issue raised in this thread---what to do when a team is apparently coached to bully and intimidate opponents? And surely the moderator must be empowered to sanction such behavior in order to maintain the simple and basic civilities essential to any competitive enterprise. Further, the TD himself must be apprised of such behavior if it is repeated---else the bullies are tolerated and doubtless also win some close contests as a consequence, undermining every possible reason to participate in quizbowl in the first place if such results are allowed to stand. So, rather than worry about over-reactions of moderators, notice how your own teammate---Aidan---reacted when he heard of this problem. And surely Aidan was instinctively correct to react in a way that reveals his contempt for such behavior. But that is precisely why the moderator, in such a case, must be both empowered to respond IMMEDIATELY, so that students like Aidan trying to be sportsmen do not feel compelled to do something they might regret later. The moderator therefore must, in my humble opinion, also be supported by all who love quizbowl, else the bullies & thugs will trigger more than the proverbial 'bird' in some rooms---and, ultimately, understandably so if standards of civility and sportsmanship are not rigorously and immediately defended. But again, it is my guess that Mr. Bollinger would agree with this and understand that moderators who reveal biases towards teams is a separate issue and one also worthy of of being treated similarly if discovered, for it is a different kind of bullying, perhaps, but it too is beyond the pale and should also never be given any latitude either if and when such biased behavior is expressed by a moderator.
Okay, I'll make my position clear:

-The recurring offense outlined by Mr. Henry, which directly impacts a team's ability to score points, has to be stopped. Charlie has mentioned specific ways that this could be accomplished.

-Giving moderators a blank check to change a game's score based on how they perceive a team's "sportsmanship" is a bad idea.
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Re: Is this rude? Should it be against the rules?

Post by cvdwightw » Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:52 pm

Jeremy Gibbs Free Energy wrote:
jonah wrote:I don't necessarily think it isn't better to kick disruptive players out of the room (after a warning, unless the conduct is really really egregious). However, I think negging someone for yelling "THAT'S A STALL" falls under that rule (perhaps only technically), since they are talking during a tossup when they haven't buzzed in. Maybe it's not "substantive" in the usual way--that is, they're not attempting to answer it because they thought their light was on--but presumably it's strictly moderator's discretion to determine whether communication is substantive.
I disagree with your assertion that it technically falls under this category for one obvious reason:
By definition, them yelling STALL has to have occurred after someone else buzzed. The first person who buzzes on a tossup is the only person who can possibly neg it.
YOUR ARE WRONG. As Jonah cited previously,
ACF Rules, E.13 wrote:Answering when another player, whether on the same team or the opposing team, has buzzed in will be treated exactly like illegal conferring. This means that the nonbuzzing player who gives the answer earns a -5 for his team when applicable, and his team is locked out of answering that tossup.
Based on the ACF Rules, this is my non-judicial ruling on the subject:

Yelling "STALL" does not constitute a case of "illegal conferring," as the interjection is "non-substantial" (cf. ACF Rules E.6). However, the interjection does indicate that a team is protesting that the moderator has given an inappropriately long amount of time for the player to give an answer.

Per ACF Rules H.5, "Nothing else is protestable, including but not limited to: judgment calls of any kind such as calling time, whether a tossup had begun before an accidental buzz as described in E.11, whether verbal conferring occurred, or the failure of the question to require a prompt on an opposing team’s answer."

Therefore, the yelling of "STALL" constitutes a "frivolous" protest, as it protests a decision that cannot be protested.

Per ACF Rules H.10, "If the tournament director determines that a team is lodging frivolous or abusive protests, he will warn the team for inappropriate conduct under rule B.3 and may take further action if the behavior continues."

Therefore, the proper course of action in any tournament using the ACF Rules is what has been advised in some posts in this thread: warn the team the first time this action occurs, then eject the offending player per ACF Rules B.3 if it occurs the second time in the game (or possibly the second or subsequent time in the tournament).
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Re: Is this rude? Should it be against the rules?

Post by jrbarry » Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:02 pm

Lee:

I absolutely agree with you on that issue. I have never seen it done and, if it was done to my team, I would probably stop the match if I could and ask for a ruling on whether a team CAN do such things in the matches. Step 2 for me would be to talk to the coach or whoever is escorting the team around. Step 3 might be (if necessary) to speak with the tournament director about it.
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Re: Is this rude? Should it be against the rules?

Post by Matt Weiner » Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:21 pm

I would absolutely consider yelling anything at the opposing team during a tossup to be conferring in any format I read for (ACF, NAQT, PACE). Thus, it would lock the team who does it out of answering the tossup, and, in formats with negs, they would receive one.
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Re: Is this rude? Should it be against the rules?

Post by Matthew D » Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:21 pm

Well Rick, Lee, or any of the other coaches that come to my tournaments, if we have something like this come up please bring it to my attention because I will say something to the coach or parent that is going around with team or the team if need be. It take a bit of the fun out of things for people if you have someone being an real jerk about things...
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Re: Is this rude? Should it be against the rules?

Post by Edward Powers » Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:32 pm

quizbowllee wrote:
Dr. Isaac Yankem, DDS wrote:
Are the teams' coaches aware of this conduct? If so, are they condoning it? Or ignoring it?
Mr.Henry responded:

Based on the fact that it occurs almost exclusively within a handful of teams and that these teams do it year after year (with the coach(es) in the rooms) I can only assume that the teams are being coached to do this.
Here is the genuine heart of the matter, I think. First, it has been going on for years; second, the coaches of the specific unnamed teams ARE PRESENT...lending their authority to this misbehavior. So, given these two key elements, plus a third mentioned by Mr. Henry in another post---that one of the teams that is so habitually and deliberately obnoxious is a leading contender for state honors ---thus, the coach and the team MUST see competitive benefits and advantages flowing from this annual behavior. So, given these as fundamenta, asking one player to leave will probably accomplish little. I respect Charlie's desire to protect the integrity of the points earned in a game, but the problem is more important than the points in any given game---it goes to the very spirit and over-riding long-term educational benefits of quizbowl itself. Thus, the remedy must fit the dis-ease, so to speak, and my guess is that the threat of disqualification of the entire team and suspension from future events is the ultimate remedy. A neg here or there, or eliminating only one player from a squad or squads that have discovered over the years that THEY CAN SUCCEED IN THIS BULLYING WAY, will not therefore stop them. So, in the fullest effort to respect the integrity, not only of any specific game, but of whole tournaments and state-wide circuits, such teams need to be put on notice that they will face disqualification and, possibly, suspensions if not outright ostracism for a lengthy period of time.

Appeasement is NEVER a good idea, while civility always is.

But what do others think, especially when it can be perceived how diplomatic Mr. Henry is trying to be, while underneath he doubtless seethes & knows that the team or teams in question do not deserve the tact and reserve he is showing and they probably would publicly mock him if they thought they could do it without revealing their identity? In short, if they are as obnoxious as he reports, wouldn't they arrogantly mock his civility if they thought they could do so with impunity? But does not their very success with this type of behavior over the years demonstrate that they do in fact somehow obtain forms of impunity? Is it not possible that they RELY on debates over technicalities, using the normal & usually healthy rules of due process to prevent anyone from really confronting them as boldly as they do when they brazenly and constantly subvert the spirit of the game? Hence is this not another set of reasons why the quizbowl community should support Mr. Henry's grave concerns and protect the integrity not only of this match or that match by protecting points, but protect the very spirit of the game itself in whatever tournaments such teams are enrolled?
Last edited by Edward Powers on Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:10 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: Is this rude? Should it be against the rules?

Post by centralhs » Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:56 pm

I think that, at the high school level, coaches need to play a greater role in teaching students what winning really should mean -- which means that, in quiz bowl, the team should win that has the most knowledge, not the team that uses the most (unsportsmanlike) gamesmanship. If you really have the knowledge, you should not need to resort to these kinds of antics.

I have never seen anything occur like the "yelling out stall" scenario that Lee Henry describes. However, over the last year or so, I have seen teams employ several tactics that I feel are unsportsmanlike, if not explicitly against the rules. At the Walton tournament last week (a tournament that uses bounceback bonuses), one of the teams tried quickly yelling out "Pass" while the reader was in the middle of reading the bonus to them, so that my team could not even hear the question that we would get on bounceback. Is there a rule against this?

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Re: Is this rude? Should it be against the rules?

Post by at your pleasure » Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:06 pm

centralhs wrote:I think that, at the high school level, coaches need to play a greater role in teaching students what winning really should mean -- which means that, in quiz bowl, the team should win that has the most knowledge, not the team that uses the most (unsportsmanlike) gamesmanship. If you really have the knowledge, you should not need to resort to these kinds of antics.

I have never seen anything occur like the "yelling out stall" scenario that Lee Henry describes. However, over the last year or so, I have seen teams employ several tactics that I feel are unsportsmanlike, if not explicitly against the rules. At the Walton tournament last week (a tournament that uses bounceback bonuses), one of the teams tried quickly yelling out "Pass" while the reader was in the middle of reading the bonus to them, so that my team could not even hear the question that we would get on bounceback. Is there a rule against this?

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I don't know, but it's certainly something the moderator should deal with. If a team wishes to spike its bounceback bonus(or any bonus), they should let the moderator finish then say either "don't know"or something to that effect. To inhibit the other team's ability to answer questions certainly merits a warning and ejection.
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Re: Is this rude? Should it be against the rules?

Post by Huang » Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:42 pm

centralhs wrote:At the Walton tournament last week (a tournament that uses bounceback bonuses), one of the teams tried quickly yelling out "Pass" while the reader was in the middle of reading the bonus to them, so that my team could not even hear the question that we would get on bounceback. Is there a rule against this?
In that case, the moderator should have reread the entirety of the bonus to your team.
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Re: Is this rude? Should it be against the rules?

Post by AKKOLADE » Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:45 pm

centralhs wrote:At the Walton tournament last week (a tournament that uses bounceback bonuses), one of the teams tried quickly yelling out "Pass" while the reader was in the middle of reading the bonus to them, so that my team could not even hear the question that we would get on bounceback. Is there a rule against this?
If there isn't, there sure should be!
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Re: Is this rude? Should it be against the rules?

Post by 49-Mile Scenic Drive » Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:37 pm

quizbowllee wrote:Suffice it to say that one of the teams in Alabama that is notorious for doing this is one of the major state competitors over the past few years - and it's not Hoover.

That's all I'm going to say about that.
If it's who I think it is, which I'm fairly confident it is, they've been doing it since our junior year. I should've said something to them the first instance, although if I remember right one of the players on my team, I don't recall who, actually did once. Guess that didn't do too much good.
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Re: Is this rude? Should it be against the rules?

Post by master15625 » Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:13 pm

I will admit that I have been guilty of such actions. However, I only complain when I know it has been longer than three seconds, which I do feel somewhat justified, especially when the moderator doesn't seem to be making any notice as to the time limit.

I do say people should wait for three seconds before any complaint occurs, and the moderator should be good at asking for an answer at the proper time.
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Re: Is this rude? Should it be against the rules?

Post by nobthehobbit » Tue Oct 13, 2009 4:52 am

If I were moderating a match in which a team was acting as described, I would give a warning the first time it happens followed by negs. (The whole point of that time to answer after you buzz is time to think, which is hard to do when you have other players shouting things at you.) If the behaviour persisted, I would inform the TD. If I was the TD, I would again start with a warning after one game's worth, to the effect that further reports of such behaviour will be grounds for game forfeiture and possible disqualification.

If the team's coach was present and condoning the behaviour (even if only through silence), I would warn the coach that if their team didn't stop the behaviour, I'd neg them each time they did it and possibly also kick out the coach.
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Re: Is this rude? Should it be against the rules?

Post by AKKOLADE » Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:30 am

master15625 wrote:I will admit that I have been guilty of such actions. However, I only complain when I know it has been longer than three seconds, which I do feel somewhat justified, especially when the moderator doesn't seem to be making any notice as to the time limit.

I do say people should wait for three seconds before any complaint occurs, and the moderator should be good at asking for an answer at the proper time.
Why not avoid interrupting the game and say something after the bonus has passed?
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Re: Is this rude? Should it be against the rules?

Post by Captain Sinico » Tue Oct 13, 2009 1:00 pm

master15625 wrote:I will admit that I have been guilty of such actions. However, I only complain when I know it has been longer than three seconds, which I do feel somewhat justified, especially when the moderator doesn't seem to be making any notice as to the time limit.

I do say people should wait for three seconds before any complaint occurs, and the moderator should be good at asking for an answer at the proper time.
I sure hope you never play in a format that allows for more than three seconds, then. Anyway, yelling at a team during their delineated answer time, which it is not your job to determine, is never the right response; all that's going to do is cause everyone to ignore you whether you're right or not, because you're being a total douche. I'd suggest bringing the issue up at an appropriate time like between questions or, if you must interject during the question for some reason, giving some kind of non-disruptive indication to the moderator that you think time is up.

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Re: Is this rude? Should it be against the rules?

Post by Joshua Rutsky » Tue Oct 13, 2009 1:58 pm

This is a violation of ASCA policy, and should not be tolerated. Not only does it violate our code of sportsmanship, but also our rules:
19. Procedural Protests: The purpose of a procedural protest in ASCA competition is to challenge what the coach or player perceives as a serious error by the moderator. The team captain or coach shall lodge the protest before the reading of the next question, preferably by raising his/her hand and waiting for recognition. A team shall be limited to two procedural protests per round. Discrepancies in announced scores shall be reconciled before the next period begins. The moderator’s decisions are final! After a round is completed, the results may not be contested.

If the problem is a regular issue, I would like you to send a formal letter of grievance to ASCA's president, stating the event where this occurred and that it has been part of a pattern. We censured a middle school coach for this two years ago, and I will push for the same measure here.
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