Michigan '09-'10

Dormant threads from the high school sections are preserved here.
master15625
Rikku
Posts: 291
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 11:12 pm

Re: Michigan '09-'10

Post by master15625 »

Odds & Sods wrote: Also, in an earlier post Neil mentioned MSU is having practices. I don't think anyone from the team is even on campus, so I have no clue what practices you speak of.
Hehe, sorry.

I misread the first post you made in this thread. It says "school year" not "summer". Sorry about that.
Neil Gurram
'10 DCDS
'15 MIT
'16 MIT

User avatar
ryandillon
Wakka
Posts: 151
Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:47 am
Location: Detroit

Re: Michigan '09-'10

Post by ryandillon »

Back to the team comparisons. Does anyone know how Huron Valley is going to look this year? Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they come in fourth at NAQT states last year?
Ryan Dillon

Detroit Catholic Central Class of 2011
University of Michigan Class of 2015

master15625
Rikku
Posts: 291
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 11:12 pm

Re: Michigan '09-'10

Post by master15625 »

ryandillon wrote:Back to the team comparisons. Does anyone know how Huron Valley is going to look this year? Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they come in fourth at NAQT states last year?
I believe it is just Huron. We played them a couple of times; they are okay, but compared to other teams they seem to be a notch below the top teams.
Neil Gurram
'10 DCDS
'15 MIT
'16 MIT

User avatar
Broad-tailed Grassbird
Tidus
Posts: 712
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2008 10:27 pm
Location: Somewhere nice.
Contact:

Re: Michigan '09-'10

Post by Broad-tailed Grassbird »

master15625 wrote:
ryandillon wrote:Back to the team comparisons. Does anyone know how Huron Valley is going to look this year? Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they come in fourth at NAQT states last year?
I believe it is just Huron. We played them a couple of times; they are okay, but compared to other teams they seem to be a notch below the top teams.

Was Spencer a junior or a senior?
It was New Boston Huron. New Boston is just southwest of Romulus. This is in contrast with Ann Arbor Huron, which is where the school scenes in the movie Jumper were shot. Both high schools are predictably close to the Huron River.
Nalin
Scranton Middle School (2000-2003)
Brighton High School (2003-2007)
Michigan State University (2007-2011)
Semi-Retired (2012-present)

master15625
Rikku
Posts: 291
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 11:12 pm

Re: Michigan '09-'10

Post by master15625 »

nalin wrote: Was Spencer a junior or a senior?
It was New Boston Huron. New Boston is just southwest of Romulus. This is in contrast with Ann Arbor Huron, which is where the school scenes in the movie Jumper were shot. Both high schools are predictably close to the Huron River.
I believe he was a senior. Yeah, New Boston Huron is the school that Ryan was referring to.
Neil Gurram
'10 DCDS
'15 MIT
'16 MIT

User avatar
Cheynem
Sin
Posts: 6761
Joined: Tue May 11, 2004 11:19 am
Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan

Re: Michigan '09-'10

Post by Cheynem »

If I recall, the format for the "state championship" is unique in that it has fifteen minute halves and the questions are just a tossup, followed by one bonus question (which I always had the suspicion there was no differentiation between the two and that your bonus question was just the next question on the sheet). Ordinarily I would suggest just mirroring some set, but I wonder what the appropriate difficulty would be. I always ran into some schools here that I never saw at other events (and if I also recall, the teams are separated by school class). I wonder if maybe some compromise might work--like perhaps having at least some of the set house-written?
Mike Cheyne
Formerly U of Minnesota

"You killed HSAPQ"--Matt Bollinger

User avatar
Quantum Mushroom Billiard Hat
Rikku
Posts: 435
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:16 pm
Location: Midland, MI

Re: Michigan '09-'10

Post by Quantum Mushroom Billiard Hat »

Cheynem wrote:If I recall, the format for the "state championship" is unique in that it has fifteen minute halves and the questions are just a tossup, followed by one bonus question (which I always had the suspicion there was no differentiation between the two and that your bonus question was just the next question on the sheet). Ordinarily I would suggest just mirroring some set, but I wonder what the appropriate difficulty would be. I always ran into some schools here that I never saw at other events (and if I also recall, the teams are separated by school class). I wonder if maybe some compromise might work--like perhaps having at least some of the set house-written?
I'm pretty sure your memories of the format are correct. It would be great if the MSU Honors College were willing to run the tournament on something like an HSAPQ set (NAQT sets I think are all used at other tournaments). I would guess that they wouldn't like changing the format from double elimination with lots of byes, and would give some excuse about number of rooms or moderators. As is the tournament takes a huge number of rounds, but they could conceivably use two normal sets to run it.
Nalin, I'll work on an email to them this weekend.
Michael Hausinger
Coach, Bay City Western High School
formerly of University of Michigan and East Lansing High School

User avatar
at your pleasure
Auron
Posts: 1712
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2008 7:56 pm

Re: Michigan '09-'10

Post by at your pleasure »

How many teams play this championship?
Douglas Graebner, Walt Whitman HS 10, Uchicago 14
"... imagination acts upon man as really as does gravitation, and may kill him as certainly as a dose of prussic acid."-Sir James Frazer,The Golden Bough

http://avorticistking.wordpress.com/

master15625
Rikku
Posts: 291
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 11:12 pm

Re: Michigan '09-'10

Post by master15625 »

Anti-Climacus wrote:How many teams play this championship?
I am not sure of the upper bound, but I think I know the following.
There is at most one team from each school.
20 played in Class A this year
27 played in Class B this year
33 played in Class C/D this year

Please Michael, please do anything you can to change the question set. PLEASE
Neil Gurram
'10 DCDS
'15 MIT
'16 MIT

User avatar
at your pleasure
Auron
Posts: 1712
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2008 7:56 pm

Re: Michigan '09-'10

Post by at your pleasure »

So even if they take half the teams from each class(which is a high estimate) the field would be 40 teams, which you could quite plausibly do a bracketed playoff with. The first thing that comes to mind is 8 brackets of 5, then a rebracketing with the top teams in each bracket in one bracket, the second-best teams in another bracket and so on. This leaves playoff pools of 10. If people feel up to 13 games in the tournament, the pools could be played as round-robins. If people would rather have 9 games, the brackets could be divided into pools of 5, which could then play a round robin. Then, in each bracket, the top teams in each pool would play for first, the second-best teams would play for third, and so on.
Douglas Graebner, Walt Whitman HS 10, Uchicago 14
"... imagination acts upon man as really as does gravitation, and may kill him as certainly as a dose of prussic acid."-Sir James Frazer,The Golden Bough

http://avorticistking.wordpress.com/

User avatar
ryandillon
Wakka
Posts: 151
Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:47 am
Location: Detroit

Re: Michigan '09-'10

Post by ryandillon »

squareroot165 wrote:
Cheynem wrote:If I recall, the format for the "state championship" is unique in that it has fifteen minute halves and the questions are just a tossup, followed by one bonus question (which I always had the suspicion there was no differentiation between the two and that your bonus question was just the next question on the sheet). Ordinarily I would suggest just mirroring some set, but I wonder what the appropriate difficulty would be. I always ran into some schools here that I never saw at other events (and if I also recall, the teams are separated by school class). I wonder if maybe some compromise might work--like perhaps having at least some of the set house-written?
I'm pretty sure your memories of the format are correct. It would be great if the MSU Honors College were willing to run the tournament on something like an HSAPQ set (NAQT sets I think are all used at other tournaments). I would guess that they wouldn't like changing the format from double elimination with lots of byes, and would give some excuse about number of rooms or moderators. As is the tournament takes a huge number of rounds, but they could conceivably use two normal sets to run it.
Nalin, I'll work on an email to them this weekend.
A state championship on an HSAPQ set would be interesting. I really hope that idea could get put into motion. This could help Michigan teams that don't travel much to see some good questions.
Ryan Dillon

Detroit Catholic Central Class of 2011
University of Michigan Class of 2015

master15625
Rikku
Posts: 291
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 11:12 pm

Re: Michigan '09-'10

Post by master15625 »

Anti-Climacus wrote:So even if they take half the teams from each class(which is a high estimate) the field would be 40 teams, which you could quite plausibly do a bracketed playoff with. The first thing that comes to mind is 8 brackets of 5, then a rebracketing with the top teams in each bracket in one bracket, the second-best teams in another bracket and so on. This leaves playoff pools of 10. If people feel up to 13 games in the tournament, the pools could be played as round-robins. If people would rather have 9 games, the brackets could be divided into pools of 5, which could then play a round robin. Then, in each bracket, the top teams in each pool would play for first, the second-best teams would play for third, and so on.
Some teams aren't even up for 9 games unfortunately, but that is a good idea. However, I do not think they will change it from Individual Classes to All Classes, so the top teams etc. would be from different classes. This tournament really doesn't like combining classes as there is already one all class tournament (NAQT).
Neil Gurram
'10 DCDS
'15 MIT
'16 MIT

User avatar
Broad-tailed Grassbird
Tidus
Posts: 712
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2008 10:27 pm
Location: Somewhere nice.
Contact:

Re: Michigan '09-'10

Post by Broad-tailed Grassbird »

master15625 wrote:
Anti-Climacus wrote:So even if they take half the teams from each class(which is a high estimate) the field would be 40 teams, which you could quite plausibly do a bracketed playoff with. The first thing that comes to mind is 8 brackets of 5, then a rebracketing with the top teams in each bracket in one bracket, the second-best teams in another bracket and so on. This leaves playoff pools of 10. If people feel up to 13 games in the tournament, the pools could be played as round-robins. If people would rather have 9 games, the brackets could be divided into pools of 5, which could then play a round robin. Then, in each bracket, the top teams in each pool would play for first, the second-best teams would play for third, and so on.
Some teams aren't even up for 9 games unfortunately, but that is a good idea. However, I do not think they will change it from Individual Classes to All Classes, so the top teams etc. would be from different classes. This tournament really doesn't like combining classes as there is already one all class tournament (NAQT).

It's sad to compare the differences between the highest level teams in the state with the medium teams. DCC has competed in every PACE national championship. I was unaware of PACE until I came to college, and unaware of the fact that the PACE national championship occurred 15 minutes from my house a couple years ago.

The best teams practice almost too much, but the mid-level teams never pick up a packet during the week. I always wondered why my team would get blown out by 300 points in the first round of the playoffs. Two reasons, 1) Tournaments were run in a crappy way, such that single-elim was regarded as the ultimate standard. People gave me a weird look when I said, March Madness would not be run with single-elim playoffs, but how can a team get better if they can't play more rounds? 2) No one bothered to set up a practice. Do I deserve blame? In many ways yes, but I was happy enough to recruit enough kids to field a full team at a tournament.

I can't do anything about #2 anymore. Only you high schoolers can. As far as #1 goes, all MSU ACC tournaments will be run as round-robin, tournaments, with re-bracketed round-robin playoffs. I'll work on the "State Championship", but can't promise anything.
Nalin
Scranton Middle School (2000-2003)
Brighton High School (2003-2007)
Michigan State University (2007-2011)
Semi-Retired (2012-present)

User avatar
Cheynem
Sin
Posts: 6761
Joined: Tue May 11, 2004 11:19 am
Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan

Re: Michigan '09-'10

Post by Cheynem »

Part of the problem is that the state championship is really just an arbitrary tournament, but it has taken on such an aura over the years that it's pretty engrained in some schools' minds that this is the "big one." Before it was played in Lansing, it was played in Port Huron and received support from a local congressman. That's the ultimate trouble of reforming it--in a lot of schools' eyes, you're not just tweaking a pretty big state tournament, you're changing how a "champion" is crowned.
Mike Cheyne
Formerly U of Minnesota

"You killed HSAPQ"--Matt Bollinger

User avatar
Broad-tailed Grassbird
Tidus
Posts: 712
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2008 10:27 pm
Location: Somewhere nice.
Contact:

Re: Michigan '09-'10

Post by Broad-tailed Grassbird »

Cheynem wrote:Part of the problem is that the state championship is really just an arbitrary tournament, but it has taken on such an aura over the years that it's pretty engrained in some schools' minds that this is the "big one." Before it was played in Lansing, it was played in Port Huron and received support from a local congressman. That's the ultimate trouble of reforming it--in a lot of schools' eyes, you're not just tweaking a pretty big state tournament, you're changing how a "champion" is crowned.
You are exactly right, but look at who the "state champions" were this year. Catholic Central, Country Day, and I forget the third team. Anyways, those 2 finished 1 and 2 in the NAQT state championship, and basically every tournament they entered in the state was won by 1 of them.

There are 3 other problems, if you assume the same champion will be crowned.
Questions
Volunteers
How do you run a tournament with 90 teams?

Questions could be HSAPQ, but I feel like right now that is too rash. It would be like sticking a school of goldfish in pH 4 water, the circuit would hate it (or just die out). Some of the more progressive coaches in the state didn't care for them, so it could work.
We could do an HSAPQ state championship, but it would have to be separate entity from this tournament.

So basically, at this point, questions would have to be written by college students/those retired from the circuit, or some in-between vendor that is not NAQT. Michigan is saturated with NAQT, all IS series are being used up. Does anyone know of any question vendors that fit this?

Volunteers:
If this is a true state tournament, which good quiz bowlers are behind, this should not be an issue. Good mods are needed, and these good mods need to be willing to to do this new format. I've got a pretty solid list from the MSU community, but if this is a tournament with more than 35 teams, some out-of-towners are going to have to step up.

The big problem is how do you run a tournament with 90 teams?

This is how it is run now:
Basically, the state tournament is 3 tournaments, A, B, and C based on size. If we assume each one has 30 teams, and it is double-elim, there will be 60 (or 61) games. That leads to 180 games for the whole weekend.

By comparison, March Madness had 30 teams, with a 7 game round-robin. 7X15 = 105. If 90 teams come, then that's over 300 games between all 3 classes.
This is not an option, unless someone can bring a huge set of mods from out of town.

Less teams is also not a realistic option. How can you be crowned Class B champion, if you had to compete against 15 teams? Basically, every single high school needs to be given an opportunity to qualify or come to the tournament. And then at a very minimum 20 teams per class need to be at the big tournament.

Qualifying tournaments could be set up, but it would require regional commitment from people in each part of the state. Anything west of Lansing, and north of Saginaw is what is the issue. People from there would need to step up and want to run qualifying tournaments with good quiz bowl, and get teams from that region of the state to play it. The teams that come every year for this tournament would not be happy if they had to qualify. At some point teams had to qualify, but what's the point of qualifying if you are running Academic Hallmark or Patrick Press questions?


We could run the tournament hold the tournaments on different weekends, but then volunteers actually come into play. The state tournament occurs down the post spring break stretch when undergrads are preparing for finals, and graduate students are writing theses.
I talked with the grad students of the MSU team about running a "good quizbowl" tournament on the Sunday after "states". Aren Hellum, who is one of the best readers in the state said, "i can barely talk then, half the mods voices will go out".
As far as facilities go, I can reserve all of the Wells Hall classrooms, which should provide enough space for 40-45 games to play at once, provided we have questions and people to read said questions. A one day (Saturday), or two day (Sat/Sun) is defnitely possible. Friday/Saturday is basically impossible unless every team wants to play 1-2 games on Friday (which is basically what happens right now).

Basically, I need some ideas that can work considering the situation(from anyone), and few non-MSU people to step up and say I will help run this thing (can't really be high schoolers, as this needs to be a TD-type committee). Otherwise, this tournament that still seems to work in some people's eyes will continue to exist as is. Creating other tournaments will not suffice, as this crappy tournament will continue to exist and certain teams will regard it as THE tournament.

Bottom line: Improvement needs to be a collaboration between college players from multiple schools, hs coaches who will endorse this and provide suggestions, and people retired from the circuit.
Nalin
Scranton Middle School (2000-2003)
Brighton High School (2003-2007)
Michigan State University (2007-2011)
Semi-Retired (2012-present)

User avatar
Habitat_Against_Humanity
Rikku
Posts: 461
Joined: Sun Jan 21, 2007 8:51 pm
Location: Syracuse, NY

Re: Michigan '09-'10

Post by Habitat_Against_Humanity »

I would be very interested in helping steer the state championship in the right direction. Watching my old high school play on such lousy questions last year was absolutely excruciating. I graduate in December and may very well be returning to the Owosso/Corunna area (which is only about 40 minutes from MSU) for awhile, so I may be able to get involved. I was a pretty darn good player on highschool, albeit on what I realize in retrospect were crappy questions.
For a stroll down memory lane, I would love to staff in Wells Hall and see if any of my graffiti from my math classes is still there.
Nolan -
UChicago 09
Michigan State Well-wisher

User avatar
Quantum Mushroom Billiard Hat
Rikku
Posts: 435
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:16 pm
Location: Midland, MI

Re: Michigan '09-'10

Post by Quantum Mushroom Billiard Hat »

I would certainly help as well, and I'm sure we could get a group to come up from Ann Arbor.
Michael Hausinger
Coach, Bay City Western High School
formerly of University of Michigan and East Lansing High School

master15625
Rikku
Posts: 291
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 11:12 pm

Re: Michigan '09-'10

Post by master15625 »

I know that many teams in the state don't like math questions, but some do. Unfortunately, I believe NAQT will be eradicating the math questions and HSAPQ already has done that. It is possible that some teams will complain that the math questions are lacking, which the Academic Hallmarks and what not have. I have no problems with running a tournament that has no math, or one that does, but other schools may, so how do we deal with that?
Neil Gurram
'10 DCDS
'15 MIT
'16 MIT

User avatar
Important Bird Area
Forums Staff: Administrator
Posts: 5642
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 3:33 pm
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Contact:

Re: Michigan '09-'10

Post by Important Bird Area »

master15625 wrote:Unfortunately, I believe NAQT will be eradicating the math questions and HSAPQ already has done that.
Computational tossups have been eradicated from HSNCT; but teams will continue to have the choice of using them at the IS level.
Jeff Hoppes
President, Northern California Quiz Bowl Alliance
former HSQB Chief Admin (2012-13)
VP for Communication and history subject editor, NAQT
Editor emeritus, ACF

"I wish to make some kind of joke about Jeff's love of birds, but I always fear he'll turn them on me Hitchcock-style." -Fred

User avatar
Broad-tailed Grassbird
Tidus
Posts: 712
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2008 10:27 pm
Location: Somewhere nice.
Contact:

Re: Michigan '09-'10

Post by Broad-tailed Grassbird »

master15625 wrote:I know that many teams in the state don't like math questions, but some do. Unfortunately, I believe NAQT will be eradicating the math questions and HSAPQ already has done that. It is possible that some teams will complain that the math questions are lacking, which the Academic Hallmarks and what not have. I have no problems with running a tournament that has no math, or one that does, but other schools may, so how do we deal with that?

Well, as of right now, everything is open to discussion. Including what the questions will contain. If I was coming up with the questions myself, I wouldn't have comp math tossups. I would only have comp math bonuses. A few non-comp math tossups could always work. I was never a fan of academic hallmarks math.
Nalin
Scranton Middle School (2000-2003)
Brighton High School (2003-2007)
Michigan State University (2007-2011)
Semi-Retired (2012-present)

master15625
Rikku
Posts: 291
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 11:12 pm

Re: Michigan '09-'10

Post by master15625 »

nalin wrote: I was never a fan of academic hallmarks math.
Same here. But do put in non comp math tossups if you get rid of comp math tossups, because otherwise, that is just getting rid of math, which is sort of bad.
Neil Gurram
'10 DCDS
'15 MIT
'16 MIT

User avatar
Matt Weiner
Sin
Posts: 8413
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2003 8:34 pm
Location: Richmond, VA

Re: Michigan '09-'10

Post by Matt Weiner »

Yes, I believe what is actually going on is that both NAQT and HSAPQ are replacing arithmetic questions with actual math questions. Saying that anyone is "eradicating math questions" couldn't be less true.
Matt Weiner
Founder of hsquizbowl.org

The Great Unwashed
Kimahri
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat Aug 01, 2009 11:06 pm

Re: Michigan '09-'10

Post by The Great Unwashed »

Regarding volunteers, remember that in an untimed tournament, the number of volunteers will be cut by 1/3. However, additional "admin" volunteers will likely be needed to parse score sheets.
Aren Hellum
Michigan State University Grad ('11?)

master15625
Rikku
Posts: 291
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 11:12 pm

Re: Michigan '09-'10

Post by master15625 »

Does anyone know what other tournaments there will be besides the two already mentioned in Michigan?
Last edited by master15625 on Sun Aug 02, 2009 12:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Neil Gurram
'10 DCDS
'15 MIT
'16 MIT

User avatar
Whiter Hydra
Auron
Posts: 1289
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 8:46 pm
Location: Fairfax, VA
Contact:

Re: Michigan '09-'10

Post by Whiter Hydra »

The Great Unwashed wrote:Regarding volunteers, remember that in an untimed tournament, the number of volunteers will be cut by 1/3. However, additional "admin" volunteers will likely be needed to parse score sheets.
Wouldn't it be more like 1/2? While a scorekeeper is nice to have, he is not necessary in an untimed tournament, and there is absolutely no need for the scorekeeper and the timer to be different people.
Harry White
TJHSST '09, Virginia Tech '13
VP of Technology, PACE
Owner of Tournament Database Search and Quizbowl Schedule Generator
Will run stats for food

User avatar
Quantum Mushroom Billiard Hat
Rikku
Posts: 435
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:16 pm
Location: Midland, MI

Re: Michigan '09-'10

Post by Quantum Mushroom Billiard Hat »

Kamen Rider Punch Hopper wrote:
The Great Unwashed wrote:Regarding volunteers, remember that in an untimed tournament, the number of volunteers will be cut by 1/3. However, additional "admin" volunteers will likely be needed to parse score sheets.
Wouldn't it be more like 1/2? While a scorekeeper is nice to have, he is not necessary in an untimed tournament, and there is absolutely no need for the scorekeeper and the timer to be different people.
If I remember right, they have some rule about having a judge in every room in addition to the moderator, who rules on protests. Once they accept the fact that internet exists, only one mod per room will be needed.
Michael Hausinger
Coach, Bay City Western High School
formerly of University of Michigan and East Lansing High School

master15625
Rikku
Posts: 291
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 11:12 pm

Re: Michigan '09-'10

Post by master15625 »

Yeah, I remember that last year at the U of M Fall, there were two moderators at the untimed tournament, and only one moderator at the timed tournament. That is somewhat bad to do; hopefully at timed tournaments there will be two moderators so that keeping track of individual statistics and team statistics is possible.
Neil Gurram
'10 DCDS
'15 MIT
'16 MIT

Novi2010
Lulu
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun May 31, 2009 8:18 pm
Location: Novi, MI

Re: Michigan '09-'10

Post by Novi2010 »

master15625 wrote:Does anyone know what other tournaments there will be besides the two already mentioned in Michigan?
The 2nd Annual Novi Invitational will be held sometime this fall, probably in early November or so. I hope to see DCD there to defend their title!
Zhao Wang
Novi High School '10

Novi2010
Lulu
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun May 31, 2009 8:18 pm
Location: Novi, MI

Re: Michigan '09-'10

Post by Novi2010 »

Oh, and this have might been gone over already, but how will GPN look post Jamie Ding?
Zhao Wang
Novi High School '10

master15625
Rikku
Posts: 291
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 11:12 pm

Re: Michigan '09-'10

Post by master15625 »

Novi2010 wrote:
master15625 wrote:Does anyone know what other tournaments there will be besides the two already mentioned in Michigan?
The 2nd Annual Novi Invitational will be held sometime this fall, probably in early November or so. I hope to see DCD there to defend their title!

DCC A won it last year. They ripped us 430-290 in the final. But we would still like to come though.
Novi2010 wrote:Oh, and this have might been gone over already, but how will GPN look post Jamie Ding?
I believe that I mentioned it already, but here it goes. GPN will definitely be shorthanded without Jamie. However, there are guys who are rising stars on the GPN team, and there was one person not Jamie who helped somewhat with seven powers, so GPN definitely can still be good.
Neil Gurram
'10 DCDS
'15 MIT
'16 MIT

User avatar
Broad-tailed Grassbird
Tidus
Posts: 712
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2008 10:27 pm
Location: Somewhere nice.
Contact:

Re: Michigan '09-'10

Post by Broad-tailed Grassbird »

The Great Unwashed wrote:Regarding volunteers, remember that in an untimed tournament, the number of volunteers will be cut by 1/3. However, additional "admin" volunteers will likely be needed to parse score sheets.
What!
The Aren Hellum is posting on the forums.
For everyone who didn't know, this is the legend of MSU quiz bowl. For you hs freshmen, he started playing quiz bowl in the capital area before you were born.
Nalin
Scranton Middle School (2000-2003)
Brighton High School (2003-2007)
Michigan State University (2007-2011)
Semi-Retired (2012-present)

User avatar
ryandillon
Wakka
Posts: 151
Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:47 am
Location: Detroit

Re: Michigan '09-'10

Post by ryandillon »

master15625 wrote:
Novi2010 wrote:
master15625 wrote:Does anyone know what other tournaments there will be besides the two already mentioned in Michigan?
The 2nd Annual Novi Invitational will be held sometime this fall, probably in early November or so. I hope to see DCD there to defend their title!

DCC A won it last year. They ripped us 430-290 in the final. But we would still like to come though.
He could be referring to the junior varsity where Country Day beat the DCC JV A team by one question in overtime.
Ryan Dillon

Detroit Catholic Central Class of 2011
University of Michigan Class of 2015

Novi2010
Lulu
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun May 31, 2009 8:18 pm
Location: Novi, MI

Re: Michigan '09-'10

Post by Novi2010 »

no i was referring the the varsity level. I mistakenly believed DCD won the tourney.
ryandillon wrote:
master15625 wrote:
Novi2010 wrote:
master15625 wrote:Does anyone know what other tournaments there will be besides the two already mentioned in Michigan?
The 2nd Annual Novi Invitational will be held sometime this fall, probably in early November or so. I hope to see DCD there to defend their title!

DCC A won it last year. They ripped us 430-290 in the final. But we would still like to come though.
He could be referring to the junior varsity where Country Day beat the DCC JV A team by one question in overtime.
Zhao Wang
Novi High School '10

User avatar
ryandillon
Wakka
Posts: 151
Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:47 am
Location: Detroit

Re: Michigan '09-'10

Post by ryandillon »

While we're on the subject of upcoming tournaments, does anyone know if White Cloud is having their tournament? If I remember correctly, they generally held it early in the fall.
Ryan Dillon

Detroit Catholic Central Class of 2011
University of Michigan Class of 2015

David Riley
Auron
Posts: 1428
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2003 8:27 am
Location: Morton Grove, IL

Re: Michigan '09-'10

Post by David Riley »

I'm surprised no one else from Illinois has weighed in on this discussion as we can emphasize with what you guys are facing.

We can empathize as we have had similar problems over the years. If the "old" style of quiz bowl is as entrenched there as it is here, it will be a long, slow process to change it.

There are a lot of similarities. For one, there are only about sixteen teams that care about quality questions, and maybe twenty others who are willing to give them a shot, out of some 500 teams. The IHSA State Tournament has been using better questions than in the past, but there is still a lot of work to do there. Volunteers (i.e., moderators) are decided by seniority, not their ability as moderators. If we eliminated computational math, or four-part bonuses, these 500 teams would cry "foul!". These teams consider the IHSA tournament to be the ne plus ultra, even though our NAQT State Qualifier is much better run with much better questions. A small group of current and former coaches, moderators, and players (most of whom regularly contribute to this forum) are working to change things for the better by hosting and attending better tournaments, but we're guppies trying to fight a very large whale.

Again, it's a long, slow process and best of luck to you in changing it.
David Riley
Coach Emeritus, Loyola Academy, Wilmette, Illinois, 1993-2010
Steering Committee, IHSSBCA, 1996 -
Member, PACE, 2012 -

"This is 1183, of course we're barbarians" -- Eleanor of Aquitaine in "The Lion in Winter"

master15625
Rikku
Posts: 291
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 11:12 pm

Re: Michigan '09-'10

Post by master15625 »

Well, thanks for the caveat. But it is definitely worth trying, and if it is changed, it would be unbelievable.
Neil Gurram
'10 DCDS
'15 MIT
'16 MIT

David Riley
Auron
Posts: 1428
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2003 8:27 am
Location: Morton Grove, IL

Re: Michigan '09-'10

Post by David Riley »

Godspeed.
David Riley
Coach Emeritus, Loyola Academy, Wilmette, Illinois, 1993-2010
Steering Committee, IHSSBCA, 1996 -
Member, PACE, 2012 -

"This is 1183, of course we're barbarians" -- Eleanor of Aquitaine in "The Lion in Winter"

User avatar
Broad-tailed Grassbird
Tidus
Posts: 712
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2008 10:27 pm
Location: Somewhere nice.
Contact:

Re: Michigan '09-'10

Post by Broad-tailed Grassbird »

David Riley wrote:I'm surprised no one else from Illinois has weighed in on this discussion as we can emphasize with what you guys are facing.

We can empathize as we have had similar problems over the years. If the "old" style of quiz bowl is as entrenched there as it is here, it will be a long, slow process to change it.

There are a lot of similarities. For one, there are only about sixteen teams that care about quality questions, and maybe twenty others who are willing to give them a shot, out of some 500 teams. The IHSA State Tournament has been using better questions than in the past, but there is still a lot of work to do there. Volunteers (i.e., moderators) are decided by seniority, not their ability as moderators. If we eliminated computational math, or four-part bonuses, these 500 teams would cry "foul!". These teams consider the IHSA tournament to be the ne plus ultra, even though our NAQT State Qualifier is much better run with much better questions. A small group of current and former coaches, moderators, and players (most of whom regularly contribute to this forum) are working to change things for the better by hosting and attending better tournaments, but we're guppies trying to fight a very large whale.

Again, it's a long, slow process and best of luck to you in changing it.

Luckily, we're working on fixing an independent state tournament, and not a statewide athletic association. The similarities are quite hilarious though. What I wonder is, will players cry foul or will coaches cry foul?
Btw, where all the Michigan coaches? I want their input.
Nalin
Scranton Middle School (2000-2003)
Brighton High School (2003-2007)
Michigan State University (2007-2011)
Semi-Retired (2012-present)

User avatar
Unicolored Jay
Forums Staff: Administrator
Posts: 782
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:28 pm
Location: Columbus, Ohio

Re: Michigan '09-'10

Post by Unicolored Jay »

Huh, so there is a Michigan-only format being played across the state!

Here in Ohio, I think our OAC format is in a lot of ways worse, but we're pretty much in the same boat, except that lots of legitimate TU/B tournaments have been popping up lately in our state, giving us lots of other choices. Maybe Some more Michigan teams will come down here and play some more, huh? It's not too far a trip (at least for Detriot metro teams), is it?

Just a little thought.
Jasper Lee
University of Tennessee
The Ohio State University '14
Solon High School '10

User avatar
Camelopardalis
Wakka
Posts: 240
Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2008 7:13 pm
Location: Guelph, ON

Re: Michigan '09-'10

Post by Camelopardalis »

master15625 wrote:Does anyone know what other tournaments there will be besides the two already mentioned in Michigan?
I just wanted to add that there will be several events in southern Ontario this year, and we'd be thrilled to have some Michigan teams in attendance. The Winter Invitational (February) will be at either Toronto or Guelph, and there may be additional events at Guelph, or, potentially, McMaster or Waterloo. White Cloud brought two teams to the TWI, and from what I heard, had a great time.

A map of the trip from Detroit to Toronto is available here:
http://tinyurl.com/nl27g8 (Google Maps)

There will continue to be significant discounts for teams traveling from the United States. If you have any questions, you can contact me at greenwoc AT uoguelph DOT ca, and I'd be glad to answer them.
Chris Greenwood
Lisgar '08, Guelph '15
Member | ONQBA, PACE
Ontario Veterinary College, co 2015

Visit ONQBA on Facebook!

User avatar
Broad-tailed Grassbird
Tidus
Posts: 712
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2008 10:27 pm
Location: Somewhere nice.
Contact:

Re: Michigan '09-'10

Post by Broad-tailed Grassbird »

Bird Sonata wrote:Huh, so there is a Michigan-only format being played across the state!

Here in Ohio, I think our OAC format is in a lot of ways worse, but we're pretty much in the same boat, except that lots of legitimate TU/B tournaments have been popping up lately in our state, giving us lots of other choices. Maybe Some more Michigan teams will come down here and play some more, huh? It's not too far a trip (at least for Detriot metro teams), is it?

Just a little thought.

no there is no Michigan-only format. It's just one state tournament relic that was originally done by a state representative. Although, I'm sure there are plenty of leagues out there being run on Patrick Press. :roll:
Last edited by Broad-tailed Grassbird on Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Nalin
Scranton Middle School (2000-2003)
Brighton High School (2003-2007)
Michigan State University (2007-2011)
Semi-Retired (2012-present)

User avatar
Unicolored Jay
Forums Staff: Administrator
Posts: 782
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:28 pm
Location: Columbus, Ohio

Re: Michigan '09-'10

Post by Unicolored Jay »

nalin wrote:
Bird Sonata wrote:Huh, so there is a Michigan-only format being played across the state!

Here in Ohio, I think our OAC format is in a lot of ways worse, but we're pretty much in the same boat, except that lots of legitimate TU/B tournaments have been popping up lately in our state, giving us lots of other choices. Maybe Some more Michigan teams will come down here and play some more, huh? It's not too far a trip (at least for Detriot metro teams), is it?

Just a little thought.

lol, no there is no Michigan-only format. It's just one state tournament relic that was originally done by a state representative. Although, I'm sure there are plenty of leagues out there being run on Patrick Press. :roll:
Oops, my mistake then.
Jasper Lee
University of Tennessee
The Ohio State University '14
Solon High School '10

User avatar
AlphaQuizBowler
Tidus
Posts: 695
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2007 6:31 pm
Location: Alpharetta, GA

Re: Michigan '09-'10

Post by AlphaQuizBowler »

master15625 wrote:
Novi2010 wrote:
master15625 wrote:Does anyone know what other tournaments there will be besides the two already mentioned in Michigan?
The 2nd Annual Novi Invitational will be held sometime this fall, probably in early November or so. I hope to see DCD there to defend their title!

DCC A won it last year. They ripped us 430-290 in the final. But we would still like to come though.
Novi2010 wrote:Oh, and this have might been gone over already, but how will GPN look post Jamie Ding?
I believe that I mentioned it already, but here it goes. GPN will definitely be shorthanded without Jamie. However, there are guys who are rising stars on the GPN team, and there was one person not Jamie who helped somewhat with seven powers, so GPN definitely can still be good.
Stephen from GPN played well at ACE Camp and placed first in Social Studies at SEMO, for what it's worth.
William
Alpharetta High School '11
Harvard '15

master15625
Rikku
Posts: 291
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 11:12 pm

Re: Michigan '09-'10

Post by master15625 »

Oh, that is good then for GPN. Um, I was wondering how much more difficult the questions will get from last year? Last year the difficulty was higher than the previous year's, so I was wondering if any pattern will occur?
Neil Gurram
'10 DCDS
'15 MIT
'16 MIT

User avatar
Broad-tailed Grassbird
Tidus
Posts: 712
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2008 10:27 pm
Location: Somewhere nice.
Contact:

Re: Michigan '09-'10

Post by Broad-tailed Grassbird »

master15625 wrote:Oh, that is good then for GPN. Um, I was wondering how much more difficult the questions will get from last year? Last year the difficulty was higher than the previous year's, so I was wondering if any pattern will occur?
Which questions are you speaking of?
Nalin
Scranton Middle School (2000-2003)
Brighton High School (2003-2007)
Michigan State University (2007-2011)
Semi-Retired (2012-present)

master15625
Rikku
Posts: 291
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 11:12 pm

Re: Michigan '09-'10

Post by master15625 »

nalin wrote:
master15625 wrote:Oh, that is good then for GPN. Um, I was wondering how much more difficult the questions will get from last year? Last year the difficulty was higher than the previous year's, so I was wondering if any pattern will occur?
Which questions are you speaking of?
Like all such as NAQT or PACE, and maybe HSAPQ. I definitely noticed that the canon has enlargened ridiculously for high schoolers and I wonder how much larger it can get.
Neil Gurram
'10 DCDS
'15 MIT
'16 MIT

User avatar
Rufous-capped Thornbill
Tidus
Posts: 718
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:03 pm

Re: Michigan '09-'10

Post by Rufous-capped Thornbill »

master15625 wrote:
nalin wrote:
master15625 wrote:Oh, that is good then for GPN. Um, I was wondering how much more difficult the questions will get from last year? Last year the difficulty was higher than the previous year's, so I was wondering if any pattern will occur?
Which questions are you speaking of?
Like all such as NAQT or PACE, and maybe HSAPQ. I definitely noticed that the canon has enlargened ridiculously for high schoolers and I wonder how much larger it can get.
This is a good point. The change in question difficulty just from 2008 to 2009 is very evident. You'd have to think that at some point a ceiling is going to be reached.
Jarret Greene
South Range '10 / Ohio State '13 / Vermont '17

User avatar
AKKOLADE
Sin
Posts: 15549
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2003 8:08 am

Re: Michigan '09-'10

Post by AKKOLADE »

Does anyone know if Plymouth returns Alan Palgut and/or Rebecca Kiefer?
Fred Morlan
PACE President, 2018-19
International Quiz Bowl Tournaments, co-owner
University of Kentucky CoP, 2017
hsqbrank manager, NAQT writer (former subject editor), former hsqb Administrator/Chief Administrator, 2012 NASAT TD

master15625
Rikku
Posts: 291
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 11:12 pm

Re: Michigan '09-'10

Post by master15625 »

FredMorlan wrote:Does anyone know if Plymouth returns Alan Palgut and/or Rebecca Kiefer?
I am not completely sure, but I remember in my freshman year that those two were on the novice team, so that would imply that they are at least going to be seniors. They could've graduated, but being on the novice team three years ago most likely would imply they are going to be seniors.
Neil Gurram
'10 DCDS
'15 MIT
'16 MIT

User avatar
Broad-tailed Grassbird
Tidus
Posts: 712
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2008 10:27 pm
Location: Somewhere nice.
Contact:

Re: Michigan '09-'10

Post by Broad-tailed Grassbird »

Hello everyone,
Just an update for our tournaments:
On November 14th we will be hosting an HSAPQ set (varsity), and the Fall Novice Tournament Mirror (JV).

In January, we will be hosting an NAQT IS set, but the date is not set.

I will be posting formal announcements for these tournaments in 2 weeks (after everything can be finalized). If you have any questions, email us at CBOWL AT MSU DOT EDU.
Nalin
Scranton Middle School (2000-2003)
Brighton High School (2003-2007)
Michigan State University (2007-2011)
Semi-Retired (2012-present)

Locked