Kentucky 09-10

Dormant threads from the high school sections are preserved here.
Locked
User avatar
BGSO
Tidus
Posts: 685
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 12:36 pm
Location: Champaign-Urbana and Arlington heights IL
Contact:

Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by BGSO »

Crazy Andy Watkins wrote:That sounds like a tournament announcement from last year.
Which part, the ACF set #4 or the good questions?
David Garb-
Buffalo Grove High School '09
UIUC-'13

Former member of the most dysfunctional scholastic bowl team in Illinois.
(11:23:30 PM) garb: Wait, are you talking about the porn or the reeses?

User avatar
Mechanical Beasts
Banned Cheater
Posts: 5673
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2006 10:50 pm

Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Mechanical Beasts »

If you have substantive complaints about HSAPQ questions, please let HSAPQ know. Actually, yeah, I was looking at the outdated nomenclature and the May 2009 date.
Andrew Watkins

User avatar
Scott
Rikku
Posts: 382
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2008 7:13 pm
Location: Leitchfield KY

Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Scott »

Yea, that was pretty careless on my part.
I do hope that Centre can host a tournament this year, though.

In spite what happened to what happened to HSAPQ earlier this year, I still think their questions are far superior to NAQT.
Grayson is thinking about having a tournament at the Galt House the Saturday of State Governor's Cup.
We would likely use HSAPQ, ACF style, and take 16-24 teams, depending upon room available.
Please let we know if you would be interested.

Edited to remove unneeded idea.
Last edited by Scott on Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:04 am, edited 3 times in total.
Scott Blain
Grayson '12
Vanderbilt '16

Dan-Don
Yuna
Posts: 966
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2009 11:05 pm
Location: Evanston
Contact:

Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Dan-Don »

BGSO wrote:
Crazy Andy Watkins wrote:That sounds like a tournament announcement from last year.
Which part, the ACF set #4 or the good questions?
http://instantrimshot.com/
Dan Donohue, Saint Viator ('10), Northwestern ('14), NAQT

User avatar
Huang
Rikku
Posts: 442
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:29 pm

Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Huang »

grayson77 wrote: Also, let me know if anyone would like to take part in a mid-season KY poll.
Oh god no (re: see the poster above me who thinks he's funny). No need for a poll when we can easily just play each other at a tournament (Kentucky isn't too large of a state for this to not be possible).
Anyways, Dunbar will already be using one of the HSAPQ ACF sets for our March tournament. I'm not sure how many ACF-style sets they'll have left but you guys could always try a four-quarter one or something.
Sandy

User avatar
Scott
Rikku
Posts: 382
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2008 7:13 pm
Location: Leitchfield KY

Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Scott »

Haha, that is probably true about the poll.

Someone contacted me about using the New Trier Varsity set.
Our tournament might be too late for that, however.
What questions would your teams like to see used?
Scott Blain
Grayson '12
Vanderbilt '16

User avatar
Huang
Rikku
Posts: 442
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:29 pm

Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Huang »

grayson77 wrote: What questions would your teams like to see used?
A HSAPQ Four-Quarter set should be fine
Sandy

User avatar
AKKOLADE
Sin
Posts: 15339
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2003 8:08 am

Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by AKKOLADE »

Huang wrote:
grayson77 wrote: What questions would your teams like to see used?
A HSAPQ Four-Quarter set should be fine
You mean the fine one being used at the Parkersburg tournament, right? :)
Fred Morlan
PACE President, 2018-19
International Quiz Bowl Tournaments, co-owner
University of Kentucky CoP, 2017
hsqbrank manager, NAQT writer (former subject editor), former hsqb Administrator/Chief Administrator, 2012 NASAT TD

User avatar
Scott
Rikku
Posts: 382
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2008 7:13 pm
Location: Leitchfield KY

Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Scott »

Good job to Dunbar and Adair for getting 1st and 2nd at State Beta quizbowl.

However, the questions and format was a little odd. (NAQT A, tossups only/single elimination)
We played horribly (4th place), but I guess it was still practice.
I also learned that Corbin has a pretty decent team and should really try to play quizbowl more often.

As for the written test, the English was not at all what I expected.
It was pretty much identical to ACT reading with ten grammar questions attached to the end.
I was expecting a literature test like KAAC uses.
It pretty much allowed the person who agreed with the opinions of the test writer to win.
If I remember correctly, a completely random person won, while one of the the best lit players in KY got 2nd.

However, the convention was fun and I had a good time.
Scott Blain
Grayson '12
Vanderbilt '16

Kahloon
Lulu
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:37 am

Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Kahloon »

grayson77 wrote: However, the questions and format was a little odd. (NAQT A, tossups only/single elimination)
The state convention was scrambling to put something together and switched its format almost three times in the week before the competition.
Idrees Kahloon
Dunbar '12

User avatar
Scott
Rikku
Posts: 382
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2008 7:13 pm
Location: Leitchfield KY

Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Scott »

I guess that makes sense.
I would like to see HSAPQ or something of the like for next year.
Scott Blain
Grayson '12
Vanderbilt '16

FCPanther
Wakka
Posts: 192
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2006 2:34 am
Location: Northeastern KY

Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by FCPanther »

More details are actually over on the tournament board, but since this is a Kentucky tournament I thought I'd update the field here too. The Fleming County Academic Tournament is on for January 16th. It's a good late quick recall tune up before district. Anyway, here's the field:

Varsity:
Fleming Co.
Bishop Brossart
Adair Co.
Campbell Co.
Johnson Central (2)
Simon Kenton
Mason Co.
Paintsville
Grayson Co. (2)(fingers crossed)
Lafayette
Russell
Bath Co.

"B" team
Fleming
Bishop Brossart
Campbell (2)
Johnson Central
Simon Kenton
Mason Co. (?)
Paintsville
Lafayette
Russell

It's a pretty good field and there a few teams that still haven't confirmed that I don't have on the list. If you're interested let me know.
Kent Grannis--Fleming County High School Academic Coach

friendswithdave
Lulu
Posts: 80
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:07 pm

Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by friendswithdave »

I am looking for opinions on the Governor's Cup and KAAC as a whole in Kentucky. I am asking because I am considering creating a similar program here in North Carolina.

OK, for a moment, everyone please remove your quiz bowl hats.

Now, do you feel that KAAC is successful in it's ultimate goal of "Enriching the lives of Kentucky students through academic competition"?
Why is Governor's Cup so popular? Do students like academic competition? Representing their school? Teamwork and comaraderie?
Do the written assessments add to the Governor's Cup? Do students enjoy these written assessment competitions?
How would you change Governor's Cup to make it more successful? Do you feel the Governor's Cup winner does have the best set of academic teams in Kentucky?
How could Quick Recall be improved, other than question quality, which I am aware of from reading this forum?
Do you think a majority of Quick Recall players prefer pyramidal toss-ups, or shorter questions?

Thanks for your opinions!
Leon Pfeiffer
Executive Director
North Carolina Association for Scholastic Activities (NCASA)

User avatar
Matt Weiner
Sin
Posts: 8413
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2003 8:34 pm
Location: Richmond, VA

Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Matt Weiner »

friendswithdave wrote:I am looking for opinions on the Governor's Cup and KAAC as a whole in Kentucky. I am asking because I am considering creating a similar program here in North Carolina.
I don't think you are going to get a good response by coming to the quizbowl board and declaring war on quizbowl. North Carolina already has an active circuit of real tournaments, including a state championship. I cannot imagine what malice would motivate you to try to introduce an awful, non-knowledge-rewarding tournament that depends on political maneuvering, reflexes, and written tests as a competitor to the good tournaments that North Carolina has, but I assure you there are many people who will do their best to stop you.
OK, for a moment, everyone please remove your quiz bowl hats.
No?
Now, do you feel that KAAC is successful in it's ultimate goal of "Enriching the lives of Kentucky students through academic competition"?
Why is Governor's Cup so popular? Do students like academic competition? Representing their school? Teamwork and comaraderie?
Do the written assessments add to the Governor's Cup? Do students enjoy these written assessment competitions?
How would you change Governor's Cup to make it more successful? Do you feel the Governor's Cup winner does have the best set of academic teams in Kentucky?
How could Quick Recall be improved, other than question quality, which I am aware of from reading this forum?
Do you think a majority of Quick Recall players prefer pyramidal toss-ups, or shorter questions?
Governor's Cup is popular because it has official sponsorship and quizbowl players are forced to do it by their schools. No one who knows anything prefers fake questions to real ones or written tests to quizbowl.

What has the North Carolina quizbowl circuit done to offend you so much that you want to destroy it? If I ask you nicely not to, will that change your mind?
Matt Weiner
Founder of hsquizbowl.org

User avatar
Huang
Rikku
Posts: 442
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:29 pm

Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Huang »

friendswithdave wrote: Why is Governor's Cup so popular?
Because it's the only academic competition worth doing in elementary school
Do the written assessments add to the Governor's Cup?
I don't think I would do Gov Cup if it only had quick recall


Anyways, Matt is definitely correct about North Carolina having a healthier quizbowl circuit than Kentucky. I doubt North Carolina would benefit at all from whatever program you're wishing to create.
Sandy

User avatar
Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)
Chairman of Anti-Music Mafia Committee
Posts: 5640
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:46 pm
Location: Columbia, MO

Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) »

I am curious, Leon, what experience you have with quizbowl? Not to be too judgmental, but your posting history of suggesting things like 3-team matches or expanding the Governor's Cup program seem to suggest that maybe you haven't seen much good quizbowl in action. I would say you should look into how good quizbowl works and then try to make that a stronger presence rather than try to introduce something completely new and unwanted to an already active and somewhat competitive state that has a lot of good quizbowl.

As someone who once wrote for Governor's Cup, I can tell you that it is a very unsatisfying program compared to what good quizbowl has to offer. Its tossups are too short, it has math calculation tossups, it is entirely run as a double elimination, and it only includes quizbowl as a part of a larger championship which is decided by completely non-quizbowl activities as well. The only reason it is "popular" is because it is officially state sanctioned - I'm no expert, but it seems that most of the regular circuit teams in Kentucky are more interested in pyramidal quizbowl and only do Gov Cup because their administration expects them to. If you look at states with similar setups (a bizarre, poor state championship tournament but a competitive circuit otherwise) for the most part you will find that the competitive circuit is filled with pyramidal tournaments and that the rest of the state only shows up to bad local events and the "official" state tournament and has no idea what else is going on. Illinois is a prime example of this (although even their official quizbowl matches up more closely with the circuit than Gov Cup). I'm sure the only reason it has remained in the shape it's in is because bureaucracies are hard to change. Introducing this to North Carolina instead of trying to increase their current circuit (which already has a state championship that is entirely legitimate) is something I think would be very negative and is probably doomed to failure if you are acting as an individual to create this.
Charlie Dees, North Kansas City HS '08
"I won't say more because I know some of you parse everything I say." - Jeremy Gibbs

"At one TJ tournament the neg prize was the Hampshire College ultimate frisbee team (nude) calender featuring one Evan Silberman. In retrospect that could have been a disaster." - Harry White

User avatar
Scott
Rikku
Posts: 382
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2008 7:13 pm
Location: Leitchfield KY

Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Scott »

Why should you introduce a lower quality format to a state where quizbowl already has a strong presence.
I have played both quizbowl and quiz recall a lot this year, and have to say that quick recall is simply not a accurate determinate of knowledge.
This is clear in situations were one team beats a team by 2 in quick recall and then subsequently beat them by 300 in quizbowl.

Another thing is that many of the top teams in Kentucky are getting away from quick recall and doing almost entirely quizbowl.
I know this is true for Grayson, Dunbar, Manual, and Danville. (Others to a lesser extent.)
I would like to see more teams become active in quiz bowl and stray further away from quick recall.
I do not have anything against Governor's Cup, just the quality of their questions.
They have created a massive academic competition circuit, but they have implemented a massively flawed format.

Grayson will continue to compete in Governor's Cup, but not contentedly so.
Our players have gotten to the point were they groan and complain about "having" to play quick recall.
The same players enjoy competing in quizbowl very much.
I'm sure Dunbar and several other teams are the same way, and think KAAC should realize this.
If the upper teams in the state sponsored circuit are not pleased, they should have their wants at least looked into.
KAAC is not stopping Dunbar and Manual from being top 50 in the nation teams, it is just something that stands to the side of their quizbowl programs.
If KAAC was to utilize a better format, it is nearly certain that the states circuit would become more competitive nation wide.

For these, and other, reasons I would suggest that you do not implement quick recall at all.
However, a more centrally organized quizbowl association would not be a bad idea.
If you do something like this, please make it using quality pyramidal questions.
Scott Blain
Grayson '12
Vanderbilt '16

User avatar
Rococo A Go Go
Auron
Posts: 2246
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:08 am
Location: Louisville, KY

Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Rococo A Go Go »

friendswithdave wrote: I am considering creating a similar program here in North Carolina.
Unless you’re the Governor of North Carolina, you’re gonna have a hard time replicating it too much. It’s a function of our state government, and it probably wouldn’t be as successful if it weren’t.
friendswithdave wrote: OK, for a moment, everyone please remove your quiz bowl hats.
They give out quizbowl hats? Does anyone know if the ones :chip: gives out are made of tinfoil? I'm not sure you're going to be successful in getting people's opinions on a message board when the first thing you do is tell them to disregard what the particular message board focuses on.
friendswithdave wrote: Now, do you feel that KAAC is successful in it's ultimate goal of "Enriching the lives of Kentucky students through academic competition"?
Actually, I do think they are successful in this goal. They introduced various forms of academic competition to many areas of the state that may never have found it otherwise, and have allowed knowledgable elementary and middle school students an outlet for competition. Shorter questions may even be decent for an elementary circuit considering attention spans are shorter, but pyramidal questions seem to be vastly better overall--especially with middle school and high school students.
friendswithdave wrote: Why is Governor's Cup so popular? Do students like academic competition? Representing their school? Teamwork and comaraderie?


It's popular for all of those reasons and more, which also happen to be the same reasons people like to play quizbowl.
friendswithdave wrote: Do the written assessments add to the Governor's Cup? Do students enjoy these written assessment competitions?
They're not neccessary to the experience, but I did enjoy taking the tests and doing other non-quizbowl things.
friendswithdave wrote: How would you change Governor's Cup to make it more successful? Do you feel the Governor's Cup winner does have the best set of academic teams in Kentucky?
I’d move to higher standards of question quality, change the format to match the more nationwide formats like ACF and NAQT, and recognize that each type of competition is different than others and de-emphasize the role of “overall championships” as the ultimate title. As for the best teams, I do not believe that Governor's Cup is currently set up in a way that rewards the best quizbowl teams.
friendswithdave wrote: How could Quick Recall be improved, other than question quality, which I am aware of from reading this forum?
Format. There are many flaws and I really don’t want to go into them all. Things like not separating tossups and bonuses, the single elimination used at State, double elimination used for districts, etc.
friendswithdave wrote: Do you think a majority of Quick Recall players prefer pyramidal toss-ups, or shorter questions?
I really have no clue. Most quick recall players have most likely never got to experience pyramidal tossups on a large scale basis. But it seems to me, based on the experiences that our kids have, that pyramidal tossups seem to be enjoyed more. Quick recall emphasizes speed and mental tricks, while most players would rather just test their knowledge against the other team. I know so many players that I played alongside who lamented that they knew answers but were not fast enough, and I think they probably would have done better with pyramidal questions.

Governor’s Cup has done a lot of good in Kentucky, although there deep flaws that obviously need to be addressed. I will give credit where it’s due and point out that they are currently attempting to improve the program, and hopefully one day it will be good enough that it would be an acceptable model in other states.

I hope this gives some insight into Governor’s Cup, but I really would suggest not trying to replicate it in other places. Not only would it be close to impossible to be successful on a large scale, it would only serve to hurt what seems to be an already decent circuit in North Carolina.
Nick Conder
Kentucky Quizbowl Alliance

User avatar
Scott
Rikku
Posts: 382
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2008 7:13 pm
Location: Leitchfield KY

Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Scott »

soaringeagle22 wrote:
friendswithdave wrote: OK, for a moment, everyone please remove your quiz bowl hats.
They give out quizbowl hats? Does anyone know if the ones :chip: gives out are made of tinfoil? I'm not sure you're going to be successful in getting people's opinions on a message board when the first thing you do is tell them to disregard what the particular message board focuses on.
Actually a team we played against did have quizbowl hats; It didn't really make them good at quizbowl. :lol:
Scott Blain
Grayson '12
Vanderbilt '16

Faiyad
Wakka
Posts: 106
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:14 pm

Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Faiyad »

I have a simple question.

I know that about 95% of people that read this thread believe that Quick Recall does NOT and NEVER will be superior too Quiz Bowl in terms of assessment of knowledge. And, believe me, I am one of those 95%.
But who here actually likes playing it, for fun. You know, as a game.
Faiyad Mannan,
Johnson Central '11
Kentucky '15

User avatar
Scott
Rikku
Posts: 382
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2008 7:13 pm
Location: Leitchfield KY

Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Scott »

I used to like quick recall a lot, in 7th grade, before I went to ACE.
Know it is okay, better than no academic competition at all.
Is quick recall painful and completely unfun? No
Is quizbowl much more fun and reliable? Yes
I think that for elementary school and maybe even middle school, quick recall is fine.
For high school, KAAC should really try have higher quality questions.

This is why KAAC should have better questions.
Ex: (Not word for word)
This Chilean author created the work "Twenty Love Poems and a Song of Despair." Give the name of the student of Gabriela Mistral who wrote Canto General.

The order of clued just does not make sense at all.
This makes me wonder if the question writers even know the "Twenty Love Poems" is very frequently asked.
Maybe they are not intentionally messing up the clues badly.
Perhaps the writers simply don't know what quizbowl players Should know.
Scott Blain
Grayson '12
Vanderbilt '16

Faiyad
Wakka
Posts: 106
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:14 pm

Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Faiyad »

grayson77 wrote:I used to like quick recall a lot, in 7th grade, before I went to ACE.
Know it is okay, better than no academic competition at all.
Is quick recall painful and completely unfun? No
Is quizbowl much more fun and reliable? Yes
I think that for elementary school and maybe even middle school, quick recall is fine.
For high school, KAAC should really try have higher quality questions.

This is why KAAC should have better questions.
Ex: (Not word for word)
This Chilean author created the work "Twenty Love Poems and a Song of Despair." Give the name of the student of Gabriela Mistral who wrote Canto General.

The order of clued just does not make sense at all.
This makes me wonder if the question writers even know the "Twenty Love Poems" is very frequently asked.
Maybe they are not intentionally messing up the clues badly.
Perhaps the writers simply don't know what quizbowl players Should know.
This post is like the 4879529384 before it.
It is also irrelevant to my post.

I am asking if it is fun, not if it is efficient.
I find playing Quick Recall to be more fun. That is why I play QR.
I find playing Quiz Bowl to be more challenging and competitive. That is why I play QB.
Faiyad Mannan,
Johnson Central '11
Kentucky '15

User avatar
Scott
Rikku
Posts: 382
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2008 7:13 pm
Location: Leitchfield KY

Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Scott »

I did answer your question at the beginning of my post, just added other stuff at the end.
Quick recall is somewhat fun, but not as fun as quizbowl.
Scott Blain
Grayson '12
Vanderbilt '16

Faiyad
Wakka
Posts: 106
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:14 pm

Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Faiyad »

grayson77 wrote:I did answer your question at the beginning of my post, just added other stuff at the end.
Quick recall is somewhat fun, but not as fun as quizbowl.
Yeah but I really didn't ask for stuff like that, especially since this thread is FULL of that stuff.

Quizbowl is enjoyable. It is a nice change in pace from QR. But I find QR so much more fun because, like you guys say, its a game of speed and mind-tricks mixed with basic/intermediate levels of knowledge. Whereas QB is full of longer, boring questions. Sure the latter requires more skill and muuuch more knowledge and it always feels good to get a QB question right in the beginning, but it's not really as fun or entertaining.

And the fundamental "recall" aspect of Quick Recall is more appealing to the vast majority of people. Quiz shows, like Jeopardy, incorporate that same fundamental in their programs. You never see shows using long, pyramid style questions. That is generally unappealing to people.
QB is more demanding and calls for so much more studying and preparation, but it is not as entertaining to watch. The questions are so long that the majority of people would get bored after the first four tossups. If they watch better teams play, then they might be amazed at how knowledgeable they are at first glance, but eventually they would get tired and would not wish to continue watching.

BUT I WANT TO MAKE IT CLEAR I AM NOT SAYING THAT QUICK RECALL IS BETTER THAN QUIZ BOWL IN TERMS KNOWLEDGE TESTING! (That seems to be a very common misconception amongst people who read post in this forum ><)
Faiyad Mannan,
Johnson Central '11
Kentucky '15

User avatar
Nine-Tenths Ideas
Auron
Posts: 1550
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 10:14 pm
Location: MD

Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Nine-Tenths Ideas »

Faiyad wrote:Yeah but I really didn't ask for stuff like that, especially since this thread is FULL of that stuff.

Quizbowl is enjoyable. It is a nice change in pace from QR. But I find QR so much more fun because, like you guys say, its a game of speed and mind-tricks mixed with basic/intermediate levels of knowledge. Whereas QB is full of longer, boring questions. Sure the latter requires more skill and muuuch more knowledge and it always feels good to get a QB question right in the beginning, but it's not really as fun or entertaining.

And the fundamental "recall" aspect of Quick Recall is more appealing to the vast majority of people. Quiz shows, like Jeopardy, incorporate that same fundamental in their programs. You never see shows using long, pyramid style questions. That is generally unappealing to people.
QB is more demanding and calls for so much more studying and preparation, but it is not as entertaining to watch. The questions are so long that the majority of people would get bored after the first four tossups. If they watch better teams play, then they might be amazed at how knowledgeable they are at first glance, but eventually they would get tired and would not wish to continue watching.

BUT I WANT TO MAKE IT CLEAR I AM NOT SAYING THAT QUICK RECALL IS BETTER THAN QUIZ BOWL IN TERMS KNOWLEDGE TESTING! (That seems to be a very common misconception amongst people who read post in this forum ><)
I'm not sure what you're asking, then. You asked if people found QR more fun than QB. He said, "No, I don't." You say this isn't what you asked for. What are you asking for, then, only for people to say they find QR more fun?
But I totally agree. I've always wanted to remove thinking entirely and make QB a test of only buzzer speed. I have two ideas for going about this- either you could ask the same 10 questions every game, and people would have to recognize which question it is, and buzz in. The other, better idea is to just have the moderator say "Have 10 points," and then whoever buzzes in gets that 10 points. True, there is really no knowledge involved, just buzzer skill, but I think it would be really fun and exciting for everyone.
Isaac Hirsch
University of Maryland '14
Never Gonna Play Again

User avatar
The King's Flight to the Scots
Auron
Posts: 1495
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:11 pm

Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by The King's Flight to the Scots »

Faiyad wrote:
grayson77 wrote:I did answer your question at the beginning of my post, just added other stuff at the end.
Quick recall is somewhat fun, but not as fun as quizbowl.
Yeah but I really didn't ask for stuff like that, especially since this thread is FULL of that stuff.

Quizbowl is enjoyable. It is a nice change in pace from QR. But I find QR so much more fun because, like you guys say, its a game of speed and mind-tricks mixed with basic/intermediate levels of knowledge. Whereas QB is full of longer, boring questions. Sure the latter requires more skill and muuuch more knowledge and it always feels good to get a QB question right in the beginning, but it's not really as fun or entertaining.

And the fundamental "recall" aspect of Quick Recall is more appealing to the vast majority of people. Quiz shows, like Jeopardy, incorporate that same fundamental in their programs. You never see shows using long, pyramid style questions. That is generally unappealing to people.
QB is more demanding and calls for so much more studying and preparation, but it is not as entertaining to watch. The questions are so long that the majority of people would get bored after the first four tossups. If they watch better teams play, then they might be amazed at how knowledgeable they are at first glance, but eventually they would get tired and would not wish to continue watching.

BUT I WANT TO MAKE IT CLEAR I AM NOT SAYING THAT QUICK RECALL IS BETTER THAN QUIZ BOWL IN TERMS KNOWLEDGE TESTING! (That seems to be a very common misconception amongst people who read post in this forum ><)
The thing with quizbowl is, you get as much out of it as you put into it. The more you learn, the earlier you buzz, and the more you enjoy the game. Quizbowl is also more intellectually rewarding: when you get that first-line buzz, you can feel proud of destroying that tossup because you read a book or took a class. Hell, I'm still proud of some of the buzzes I got while being pulverized by Daichi at MATT last year. In my experience, that's not true with quick recall (or its equivalents). Since it requires very little knowledge, QR neither challenges nor rewards your intellect. I don't find it fun that people with stronger fingers regularly beat me to my favorite topics, either.

Look at people like Jerry Vinokurov or Matt Weiner. Over the many years that they've played, they've invested enormous amounts of effort into this game. Why do so many college students spend so much time maintaining this game? Because they love playing it so much that they're willing to work their rear ends off to keep it going. So yeah, quick recall might be fun to watch or "exciting" to play. But you won't get that deep feeling of enjoyment or real sense of accomplishment that quizbowl provides.
Last edited by Mechanical Beasts on Fri Jan 01, 2010 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: bowdlerized
Matt Bollinger
UVA '14, UVA '15
Communications Officer, ACF

User avatar
Huang
Rikku
Posts: 442
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:29 pm

Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Huang »

Faiyad wrote: But I find QR so much more fun because, like you guys say, its a game of speed and mind-tricks mixed with basic/intermediate levels of knowledge.
Why don't you just play video games instead? :roll:

I don't get what you're trying to prove here by posting about how "fun" quick recall is. Do people enjoy smashing buzzers (on quick recall questions) more than they enjoy listening to (quizbowl) questions? Maybe if they have the mindset of a toddler. But I'm pretty sure most of us got past the initial fascination with hitting a buzzer after the 4th or 5th time.
Sandy

User avatar
Mechanical Beasts
Banned Cheater
Posts: 5673
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2006 10:50 pm

Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Mechanical Beasts »

Journey to the Planets wrote:cusses
No cussin' in the high school section!
Andrew Watkins

User avatar
Rococo A Go Go
Auron
Posts: 2246
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:08 am
Location: Louisville, KY

Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Rococo A Go Go »

I'll admit that I had plenty of fun with quick recall. But I had even more fun playing quizbowl.
Nick Conder
Kentucky Quizbowl Alliance

friendswithdave
Lulu
Posts: 80
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:07 pm

Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by friendswithdave »

Thanks for your responses, constructive and otherwise. I'm afraid to say more, lest my post be censored from the board entirely again.

Opinions on the other seven Governor's Cup events (not Quick Recall) are welcome.

Thanks again,
Leon Pfeiffer
Executive Director
North Carolina Association for Scholastic Activities (NCASA)

User avatar
Matt Weiner
Sin
Posts: 8413
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2003 8:34 pm
Location: Richmond, VA

Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Matt Weiner »

friendswithdave wrote:Thanks for your responses, constructive and otherwise. I'm afraid to say more, lest my post be censored from the board entirely again.
No one "censored" any of your posts. Everything you posted is here. Please do not impugn the board staff with lies.

Furthermore, it is not up to you to decide whether discussion about quizbowl on the quizbowl board is "constructive," so someone may have to "censor" you in the future if you keep meta-posting in that fashion. However, it has not happened yet.
Matt Weiner
Founder of hsquizbowl.org

friendswithdave
Lulu
Posts: 80
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:07 pm

Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by friendswithdave »

I apologize to the site administrators. I thought a post I submitted was censored and removed, but apparently it was just lost somewhere between my computer and the board.

My goal is not to carbon copy Quick Recall and bring it to NC. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I am trying to take what appear to be the good things about KAAC (everything but Quick Recall), and insert TRUE Quiz Bowl in the place of Quick Recall. True Quiz Bowl has pyramidal toss-ups and multi-level bonuses. It has round-robin play instead of single or double elimination. It is everything you all want it to have.

I am convinced that the key to KAAC's success (success = 90% + participation rate in HS) is that it's quiz bowl-type product, QR, is one piece of the Governor's Cup, instead of being a stand-alone product as it is in other areas. I understand it started with top-down support from Government. However, it would not continue 25 years later if students didn't want to participate and compete.

Yes, NC has good Quiz Bowl and good teams, just a low overall participation rate. I am NOT trying to compete with them, but create a program which will generate MORE teams for them to compete against. Yes, I am working with established QB coaches in NC, and will continue to do so.
Leon Pfeiffer
Executive Director
North Carolina Association for Scholastic Activities (NCASA)

User avatar
Rococo A Go Go
Auron
Posts: 2246
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:08 am
Location: Louisville, KY

Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Rococo A Go Go »

friendswithdave wrote: I am convinced that the key to KAAC's success (success = 90% + participation rate in HS) is that it's quiz bowl-type product, QR, is one piece of the Governor's Cup, instead of being a stand-alone product as it is in other areas. I understand it started with top-down support from Government. However, it would not continue 25 years later if students didn't want to participate and compete.
Have you talked with KAAC itself? They could answer your questions a lot easier than most of us. I think the e-mail is [email protected] and the head of the organization posts here from time to time as well.
Nick Conder
Kentucky Quizbowl Alliance

User avatar
Scott
Rikku
Posts: 382
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2008 7:13 pm
Location: Leitchfield KY

Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Scott »

friendswithdave wrote:Opinions on the other seven Governor's Cup events (not Quick Recall) are welcome.
Future Problem Solving is a very good event.
It may not have anything to do with quizbowl, or even require factual intelligence, but it is a solid program.
You may want to considering getting FPS spread throughout North Carolina.
There are several students (around 10) on our "team" that do not participate in quiz bowl, but do FPS.
It is a great activity that encourages creativity and problem solving skills (duh...) :smile:
Scott Blain
Grayson '12
Vanderbilt '16

User avatar
Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)
Chairman of Anti-Music Mafia Committee
Posts: 5640
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:46 pm
Location: Columbia, MO

Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) »

I am convinced that the key to KAAC's success (success = 90% + participation rate in HS) is that it's quiz bowl-type product, QR, is one piece of the Governor's Cup, instead of being a stand-alone product as it is in other areas. I understand it started with top-down support from Government. However, it would not continue 25 years later if students didn't want to participate and compete.
Your assumption that somehow Quick Recall being a part of Governor's cup is what makes it so widely attended, as opposed to the fact that Governor's cup is a state sponsored activity that administrators find prestigious, and thus have a long standing expectation that the school will field a team to try and bring some recognition. In Missouri, quizbowl is a state sponsored activity, and there are something like 400 schools that sign up for MSHSAA quizbowl sanctioning every year, which I find to be an extremely large number, and it's not like the MSHSAA is running quizbowl in conjunction with other activities. I think if Kentucky were to strip away all other aspects of Governor's Cup, the number of schools that participate would be identical. I see this argument crop up too when discussing the IHSA, and the numbers in Arkansas, Virginia, and Oklahoma seem to be large as well under similar systems.

If you look at the actual numbers of teams that play quizbowl tournaments in Kentucky, or any other state under these systems, the number gets much closer to what you would expect in any normal circuit. To construe Kentucky as a state where every team is into quizbowl is ignoring what's actually going on, which is that a bunch of teams sign up because it's expected of them, then maybe show up to play a couple games, then are never to be heard from for a year. I fail to see how this is really that great a step up from what already exists.


To think that just because something has been around a long time means that people like it is also just plain wrong. The MSHSAA format (along with many stupid MSHSAA policies) has been in use for almost 20 years, and it has taken until now for more than a couple people to come out and say it sucks and needs to be changed, and now that we are actually presenting an alternative to a horrible setup with good quizbowl, there are some teams coming out of the woodwork who realize they dislike the MSHSAA game that would never known anything otherwise. Even then, it's going to take forever for the rules to change because most coaches don't know any better and the process for getting this through a bureaucracy is skull crushingly slow. Considering that good quizbowl has literally hit its stride in the last 5 years, your expectations for things in a bureaucracy to change that fast within Kentucky are extremely unrealistic.

Lastly, in almost every single case, states with large organizations that aren't made up exclusively for quizbowl end up as debacles with bad questions, dumb setups, silly game formats, or restrictive sports-style rules that become quickly entrenched and nearly impossible to change. This is obviously bad, and trying to bring something like this to North Carolina would negate whatever positives you might have to offer with a different setup.

I think you have some very mistaken expectations about what high schools play Gov Cup for, and I hope you change your mind before trying to make a quizbowl competition where you can win without being good at quizbowl through taking tests or other non-quizbowl activities. This is obviously contrary to how the game of quizbowl should be conducted.
Charlie Dees, North Kansas City HS '08
"I won't say more because I know some of you parse everything I say." - Jeremy Gibbs

"At one TJ tournament the neg prize was the Hampshire College ultimate frisbee team (nude) calender featuring one Evan Silberman. In retrospect that could have been a disaster." - Harry White

User avatar
Rococo A Go Go
Auron
Posts: 2246
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:08 am
Location: Louisville, KY

Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Rococo A Go Go »

Jeremy Gibbs Free Energy wrote: If you look at the actual numbers of teams that play quizbowl tournaments in Kentucky, or any other state under these systems, the number gets much closer to what you would expect in any normal circuit. To construe Kentucky as a state where every team is into quizbowl is ignoring what's actually going on, which is that a bunch of teams sign up because it's expected of them, then maybe show up to play a couple games, then are never to be heard from for a year. I fail to see how this is really that great a step up from what already exists.
This is a good point, and an important one as well. I'd say that a majority of schools in Kentucky solely do Governor's Cup and whatever local leagues that emulate it.
Nick Conder
Kentucky Quizbowl Alliance

Charbroil
Auron
Posts: 1145
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2006 11:52 am
Location: St. Charles, MO

Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Charbroil »

friendswithdave wrote:I am trying to take what appear to be the good things about KAAC (everything but Quick Recall), and insert TRUE Quiz Bowl in the place of Quick Recall. True Quiz Bowl has pyramidal toss-ups and multi-level bonuses.
I'm not exactly sure how necessary it is to tie Quiz Bowl into other competitions (like Future Problem Solving, written tests, etc.)--Quiz Bowl is perfectly fine just by itself, especially given that there already is a perfectly legitimate state tournament in the form of the North Carolina Open Academic State Tournament (NCOAST). (For more info, go here: http://www.raleighcharterhs.org/NCATA/)

That said, if you wanted to turn Quiz Bowl as it exists now into a statewide activity like KAAC with official sponsorship, there are also some other risks.

First of all, doing so would probably necessitate putting the administration of such an activity in the hands of some organization (such as the state government, an activities association, etc.) outside of the Quiz Bowl community. As anyone who's ever had to deal with this kind of Quiz Bowl can tell you, this is usually a terrible idea, because as Charlie says, such organizations usually don't know what they're doing in regards to Quiz Bowl and enforce awful formats, rules, etc.

Second, even if you avoid this pitfall and keep such an organization solely in the hands of Quiz Bowl players, due to the rapidly changing nature of the game, such an organization would probably fall behind the times and end up promoting some element of "bad Quiz Bowl" simply through stagnation. For example, both the Bay Area Academic League and NAQT are predominantly run by former players and in both cases, the leadership of those organizations have been criticized (in many cases, justly) for failing to keep up with what makes good Quiz Bowl.

Third, even if you can avoid these pitfalls, any such large scale effort would at the very least need some sort of sponsorship by an outside organization, which threatens the problems I mentioned in my first point. There are examples of good Quiz Bowl entities working with outside groups to successfully sponsor competitions without giving up good Quiz Bowl practices, such as NAQT's new contract with the Association of College Unions International (ACUI) and HSAPQ's contract with the Virginia High School League (VHSL) to provide its state series questions. However, both of these arrangements are just beginning this year, so no one knows if they'll work out or not.

Also, you'd have to emphasize that the state competition shouldn't be the ultimate goal of Quiz Bowl competition--all legitimate teams are most concerned about Nationals (NAQT's HSNCT and PACE's NSC) rather than their local state competition. In many cases (such as in Missouri and Illinois), this has created conflict with local activities associations that want teams to prepare for and focus on only the state competition, promoting that format even if it's detrimental to national competitiveness.

Thus, if you do decide to augment the existing structure of good Quiz Bowl competition in North Carolina through some sort of state sponsorship, that would be a wonderful example of what might be possible in other states, but until you do, you shouldn't be surprised if people who have dealt with the negative side of statewide Quiz Bowl organizations (like Charlie and I, who both played in Missouri) are highly skeptical and/or concerned. If, however, you simply want to tie other competitions in to Quiz Bowl in North Carolina, then I don't really see the point.

Anyway, the North Carolina Academic Team Association would probably be the group to contact if you want to do anything like this.

Speaking of which, just out of curiosity, how do you see yourself possibly implementing such a plan? If it's not too probing of a question, are you possibly affiliated with the Governor's office, a high school teacher or administrator, an educator, etc.? I'm just wondering since it would probably help people help you if they knew what your background and/or capabilities are.

Edit: Forgot a point
Charles Hang
Francis Howell Central '09
St. Charles Community College '14
Washington University in St. Louis '19 (President, 2017-19)

Owner, Olympia Academic Competition Questions, LLC
Question Writer, National Academic Quiz Tournaments, LLC and National History Bee and Bowl

Faiyad
Wakka
Posts: 106
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:14 pm

Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Faiyad »

Aldo Montoya wrote:
Faiyad wrote:Yeah but I really didn't ask for stuff like that, especially since this thread is FULL of that stuff.

Quizbowl is enjoyable. It is a nice change in pace from QR. But I find QR so much more fun because, like you guys say, its a game of speed and mind-tricks mixed with basic/intermediate levels of knowledge. Whereas QB is full of longer, boring questions. Sure the latter requires more skill and muuuch more knowledge and it always feels good to get a QB question right in the beginning, but it's not really as fun or entertaining.

And the fundamental "recall" aspect of Quick Recall is more appealing to the vast majority of people. Quiz shows, like Jeopardy, incorporate that same fundamental in their programs. You never see shows using long, pyramid style questions. That is generally unappealing to people.
QB is more demanding and calls for so much more studying and preparation, but it is not as entertaining to watch. The questions are so long that the majority of people would get bored after the first four tossups. If they watch better teams play, then they might be amazed at how knowledgeable they are at first glance, but eventually they would get tired and would not wish to continue watching.

BUT I WANT TO MAKE IT CLEAR I AM NOT SAYING THAT QUICK RECALL IS BETTER THAN QUIZ BOWL IN TERMS KNOWLEDGE TESTING! (That seems to be a very common misconception amongst people who read post in this forum ><)
I'm not sure what you're asking, then. You asked if people found QR more fun than QB. He said, "No, I don't." You say this isn't what you asked for. What are you asking for, then, only for people to say they find QR more fun?
I was referring to the crap he added with his answer.
Faiyad Mannan,
Johnson Central '11
Kentucky '15

Faiyad
Wakka
Posts: 106
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:14 pm

Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Faiyad »

Huang wrote:
Faiyad wrote: But I find QR so much more fun because, like you guys say, its a game of speed and mind-tricks mixed with basic/intermediate levels of knowledge.
Why don't you just play video games instead? :roll:

I don't get what you're trying to prove here by posting about how "fun" quick recall is. .
I was just conducting a survey.
Faiyad Mannan,
Johnson Central '11
Kentucky '15

User avatar
Huang
Rikku
Posts: 442
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:29 pm

Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Huang »

Faiyad wrote: I was just conducting a survey.
Yet you posted this:
But I find QR so much more fun because, like you guys say, its a game of speed and mind-tricks mixed with basic/intermediate levels of knowledge. Whereas QB is full of longer, boring questions. Sure the latter requires more skill and muuuch more knowledge and it always feels good to get a QB question right in the beginning, but it's not really as fun or entertaining.
As far as I can tell, you're most definitely not "just conducting a survey." You're making an argument that quick recall is more "fun" than quizbowl.
Sandy

User avatar
akinney
Wakka
Posts: 117
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:52 pm
Location: Madisonville, KY
Contact:

Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by akinney »

Last time I checked, guys, we still have to play the format, no matter how God-forsaken and absurd it is.

The reason why everyone in Kentucky participates is because that is all most schools know...they started it in elementary school and they were raised to play/participate in it. 95% of Kentucky has no conception of what quiz bowl is at all. And that won't be changing in the future, either. Most quick recall players can't cut it in quiz bowl, anyway.

Oh, and let's not forget it's basically sanctioned by the department of education. I'm not sure if there IS a school in Kentucky that doesn't participate in Governor's Cup/quick recall.
Aaron Kinney
Madisonville-North Hopkins '10
Go Maroons!

Faiyad
Wakka
Posts: 106
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:14 pm

Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Faiyad »

Huang wrote:
Faiyad wrote: I was just conducting a survey.
Yet you posted this:
But I find QR so much more fun because, like you guys say, its a game of speed and mind-tricks mixed with basic/intermediate levels of knowledge. Whereas QB is full of longer, boring questions. Sure the latter requires more skill and muuuch more knowledge and it always feels good to get a QB question right in the beginning, but it's not really as fun or entertaining.
As far as I can tell, you're most definitely not "just conducting a survey." You're making an argument that quick recall is more "fun" than quizbowl.
I gave my opinion and I backed it up.
Faiyad Mannan,
Johnson Central '11
Kentucky '15

User avatar
Matt Weiner
Sin
Posts: 8413
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2003 8:34 pm
Location: Richmond, VA

Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Matt Weiner »

Alright, enough with the metaposting, everybody.
Matt Weiner
Founder of hsquizbowl.org

friendswithdave
Lulu
Posts: 80
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:07 pm

Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by friendswithdave »

I'll try to address your comments and concerns.

Nick, I have talked to Mr. Bennett at length about KAAC. He was very forthcoming about its pros and cons, and I appreciate the time he has spent educating me about KAAC.

I have tried to talk to the NC FPS coordinator, without success. I agree this seems to be a very postive program, and will continue to try to work with them.

Charlie, you make some good points. I will try to learn more about the pros and cons of the Missouri Quiz Bowl organization. I do understand that most Ky schools do Governor's Cup and not Quiz Bowl. However, I can't believe that Governor's Cup is such a terrible thing. Poor organizations either die or evolve into something better over 25 years. It may not be perfect or true Quiz Bowl, but you won't convince me that it Governor's Cup is a debacle. Why would anyone want to "make a quizbowl competition where you can win without being good at quizbowl through taking tests or other non-quizbowl activities." I think it's possible to create an event where a Quiz Bowl champion is crowned, and an overall "Governor's Cup" champion is crowned as well. These don't have to be mutually exclusive.

Charles, I am aware of NCOAST and NCATA. I am working with members of NCATA, and will continue to work with them. While NCOAST seems to be fine for what it is, approximately 5% of North Carolina schools participate. My goal is to reach participation levels similar to what KAAC has. I hope to keep the organization in the hands of the Quiz Bowl community; that's why I contacted them first. While there can never be any guarantees it won't stray from perfect Quiz Bowl, that would be up to the Board of Directors. My hope is that QB coaches will make up a majority of the BOD. As for me, I am not associated with any school, company, or government organization. I am an engineer who has worked in manufacturing my entire career. I have also worked with and led non-profits for 20 years, all related to enriching the lives of students, mostly in church and youth sports. Yes, my plan would be to work with state education organizations to earn their sponsorship and endorsement. This has a much better chance of success if we a promoting a comprehensive academic competition instead of just Quiz Bowl.

Aaron, I hear what you are saying. If QR is so God-forsaken and absurd, work to create a Quiz Bowl team at your school, and don't play QR. I can't imagine anyone is forcing you to participate. FYI, Mr. Bennett told me about 90% of high schools and 80% of middle schools participate in KAAC.

Thanks again for all your insights. I don't always agree with you, but do value your opinions and appreciate your time sharing them.
Leon Pfeiffer
Executive Director
North Carolina Association for Scholastic Activities (NCASA)

User avatar
Matt Weiner
Sin
Posts: 8413
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2003 8:34 pm
Location: Richmond, VA

Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Matt Weiner »

I guess I'd just like to know on what basis you are making all of these pie-in-the-sky pronouncements about how quizbowl and quizbowl organizations can and must work, when you yourself are not involved in high school quizbowl and several highly involved students, alumni, and tournament organizers are telling you that you are wrong using counter-examples from the real world. It seems like you think you are exponentially smarter than everyone else and have figured out an activity to an extent greater than the thousands of people who have been intimately involved with it for years, and I'd like to know why you have this mentality and what your real agenda is.
Matt Weiner
Founder of hsquizbowl.org

User avatar
Scott
Rikku
Posts: 382
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2008 7:13 pm
Location: Leitchfield KY

Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Scott »

Faiyad wrote:I gave my opinion and I backed it up.
That is what I did when I initially answered your question.
What followed my answer was not "crap," it was attempting to back it up.
To me if quickrecall is not as reliable, it is not as fun.
I do not enjoy people scoring points on me in areas they have very little knowledge, just because they can buzz fast.

User was banned for 24 hours for meta-posting after being warned to stop. --the mgmt
Scott Blain
Grayson '12
Vanderbilt '16

User avatar
Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN)
Chairman of Anti-Music Mafia Committee
Posts: 5640
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:46 pm
Location: Columbia, MO

Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) »

Poor organizations either die or evolve into something better over 25 years.
Russia was communist for almost 3 times that long, and even today it still sucks in a lot of ways there. So no, I don't buy that organizations that cause debacles will not be able to survive that long. Missouri has been run on the same format for quizbowl since 1990, which is coming fairly close to your date window, and it still mostly sucks. Did you not notice what I said about how it's only really been a little over 5 years for really good pyramidal quizbowl to start exploding, and even then it's only been strongest in places with no overarching organization imposing their authority. The D.C. area, the South, Minnesota, and Michigan strike me as these places historically relative to how far the rest of the country has gone, so it makes perfect sense that most coaches still have very little experience with good quizbowl and that these organizations which were once "good" simply because they were all there was have not had the time for people to realize they suck and be phased out. Due to what is apparently a complete uninvolvement in quizbowl, you have no sense of historicism, so I don't think you have any real reason to trust your assertions just yet. Seriously, we know what we're talking about - for one, Matt has been involved in the game since the mid 1990s, edited many nationals championships, and countless other good sets, and has been very active in the movement to try and get good quizbowl to displace bad. I think it's pretty safe to say that in his experience in such a large timeframe, he's amassed more than enough expertise to be able to judge that your ideas are pretty half baked and show some very fundamental lacking of understanding about what it is that has been going on to spread pyramidal quizbowl.
Charlie Dees, North Kansas City HS '08
"I won't say more because I know some of you parse everything I say." - Jeremy Gibbs

"At one TJ tournament the neg prize was the Hampshire College ultimate frisbee team (nude) calender featuring one Evan Silberman. In retrospect that could have been a disaster." - Harry White

Charbroil
Auron
Posts: 1145
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2006 11:52 am
Location: St. Charles, MO

Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Charbroil »

friendswithdave wrote: While NCOAST seems to be fine for what it is, approximately 5% of North Carolina schools participate. My goal is to reach participation levels similar to what KAAC has.
As others have mentioned, it's the prestige of the sponsorship of KAAC by the Governor and by Boards of Education which causes so many teams to participate, not the incorporation of non-Quiz Bowl competitions into the Governor's Cup. Thus, it's not necessary to incorporate such competitions into NCOAST to make it more popular.
friendswithdave wrote: I hope to keep the organization in the hands of the Quiz Bowl community; that's why I contacted them first. While there can never be any guarantees it won't stray from perfect Quiz Bowl, that would be up to the Board of Directors. My hope is that QB coaches will make up a majority of the BOD.
While we're glad that you do understand our concerns about putting stewardship of a Quiz Bowl organization in the hands of nonmembers of the Quiz Bowl community, even putting such control in the hands of coaches is not necessarily a good idea. In such states as Illinois and Missouri, it's often been the coaches who've been most vocal in promoting bad Quiz Bowl practices because it's in their best interest to make it easier for their teams to win without doing the necessary work. By definition the elite teams (and thus elite coaches who know what good Quiz Bowl is) can never be the majority, so in any collective power structure, they'll have difficulty imposing a truly meritocratic version of good Quiz Bowl that allows the best teams to consistently win (because it isn't in other coaches' best interests to allow the best teams to win because they don't coach the best teams).

Granted, this is a rather harsh view of what motivates many high school coaches when placed in a position of power in such organizations, but I assure you (as Matt, Charlie, and others with similar experiences will agree) that it's not an unreasonable view.
friendswithdave wrote: Yes, my plan would be to work with state education organizations to earn their sponsorship and endorsement. This has a much better chance of success if we a promoting a comprehensive academic competition instead of just Quiz Bowl.
I've mentioned the risks of involving outside agencies in controlling Quiz Bowl, and you seem to have recognized them (which I thank you for), but I did want to mention again that outside agencies in such a capacity often don't know what they're doing.
friendswithdave wrote: Aaron, I hear what you are saying. If QR is so God-forsaken and absurd, work to create a Quiz Bowl team at your school, and don't play QR. I can't imagine anyone is forcing you to participate. FYI, Mr. Bennett told me about 90% of high schools and 80% of middle schools participate in KAAC.
Madisonville North Hopkins (Aaron's team) does have a Quiz Bowl team--and a good one, for that matter. However, while no one is literally compelling Aaron and his teammates to play QR at gunpoint, I imagine that there's a strong expectation on the part of their coach that they do so (and in turn a strong expectation on the part of their school administration that their coach do so, etc.). That's the downside of prestigious, outside sponsored Quiz Bowl like activities--while in theory they could cause many schools to play good Quiz Bowl, in practice, competitions like the Governor's Cup, MSHSAA & IHSA State competition, etc. which teams are always expected to play no matter how terrible they are have generally merely compelled teams to play bad Quiz Bowl.

Mr. Pfeiffer, I don't want you to think that this board is trying to be particularly hostile to you--rather, people on this board have, as Charlie mentioned, been active in promoting Quiz Bowl for a very long time and thus are often put out by what they perceive to be individuals who don't become fully aware of the situation before promoting their own ideas. This is especially true when the issues involved (namely, state sponsored Quiz Bowl) are ones that have caused members of this board quite a bit of trouble in the past--as I mentioned, Charlie and I both played in Missouri and thus our reminiscences merely reflect our personal experiences. Nevertheless, I appreciate how you've chosen to try and engage the community and I, for one, look forward to you continuing to be a contributing member of these boards.
Charles Hang
Francis Howell Central '09
St. Charles Community College '14
Washington University in St. Louis '19 (President, 2017-19)

Owner, Olympia Academic Competition Questions, LLC
Question Writer, National Academic Quiz Tournaments, LLC and National History Bee and Bowl

User avatar
akinney
Wakka
Posts: 117
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:52 pm
Location: Madisonville, KY
Contact:

Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by akinney »

Charles: You are absolutely, 100% correct in saying that there is a reasonable expectation that we play QR. And actually, our coach has very little true knowledge of good quiz bowl, and she insists we go to tournaments where speed and buzzer races are tantamount to actual knowledge (and she still insists on studying lists, and we've never read packets or written questions). There is a tournament I hate going to in Fleming County, Kentucky, that she wants us to go to because, even though she "hates it, it is the only way to see teams that are going to be at [Governor's Cup] State." I don't need to tell you that those teams do not play quiz bowl.

Another problem my school has is directly correlated to our location. In Kentucky, because of quick recall, quiz bowl is not as strong as QR (there aren't many tournaments), simply because there hasn't been a lot of exposure like there has been for quick recall. This is especially true in western Kentucky, where Madisonville North Hopkins is really the only school with a quiz bowl program. Because Madisonville has been so active in quiz bowl, our knowledge base has carried over to the written assessment, and our quick recall team is better for it. Needless to say, it's been quite some time since we have lost a quick recall match to any of the teams in our region.

I wish I could take credit for the success of Madisonville's quiz bowl team, as I have been actively encouraging our participation in many tournaments during my career here and trying to make our team better. But the truth is, there were good quiz bowl players before me, who were so good at quick recall that they realized that there was something else more challenging and ultimately more rewarding than the shoddy system that's currently in place. This system has also led to my teammates not knowing what real quiz bowl is...and our performance has suffered in many tournaments. I consistently feel like the team is dependent upon me to win.

I know my team will not do well at quick recall this year at the state competition. It's not because we aren't knowledgeable, but rather it's because the format is tailored to speed. That is the saddest thing about quick recall. The whole point is to reward knowledge; beyond a certain level it doesn't do it's job anymore, because anyone can buzz in on "this Danish physicist..." and get the answer right.

And even though my team will not do well at state, I'm still compelled to participate in quick recall. This tells you a lot about the self-perpetuating evil known as Governor's Cup.

And by the way, what in the sam hill is a metapost?
Aaron Kinney
Madisonville-North Hopkins '10
Go Maroons!

User avatar
Auks Ran Ova
Forums Staff: Chief Administrator
Posts: 4099
Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2006 10:28 pm
Location: Minneapolis
Contact:

Re: Kentucky 09-10

Post by Auks Ran Ova »

akinney wrote:And by the way, what in the sam hill is a metapost?
Generally, posting about how other people are posting.
Rob Carson
University of Minnesota '11, MCTC '??
Member, ACF
Member, PACE
Writer and Editor, NAQT

Locked