PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Boeing X-20, Please! »

Hey, so I know PACE is more than a week away, but will there be any attempts to do a similiar predictions/rankings type thing as Chris is doing for HSNCT in the coming week or two?
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by AlphaQuizBowler »

Secretary of Bobcats wrote:Hey, so I know PACE is more than a week away, but will there be any attempts to do a similiar predictions/rankings type thing as Chris is doing for HSNCT in the coming week or two?
I remember Fred doing a liveblog of the actual event last year, but I'm not sure if that's going to continue/expand.
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Unicolored Jay »

I'd do it, but I would want to see the brackets first. (And there would be no analysis forthcoming, either.)
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by AKKOLADE »

I am hopeful something interesting can be done involving the PACE NSC and the Internet, specifically things happening at the former being written about on the latter at an almost simultaneous rate of occurrence.

Edit: Grammar'd
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Joshua Rutsky »

OK-

Still wondering about schedule, location, and other information that I really would like to have this week so I can get it out to my team and make itineraries. Any hope we'll get tourney materials in the next couple of days? I hate to be a pest, but this is a major travel event for us.
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by AKKOLADE »

Mr. Rutsky - those should be sent out in an email over the next 24 hours, I hope.
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by gyre and gimble »

Where can I find the official rules for this tournament?
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by AKKOLADE »

The updated rules, along with an email to team coaches regarding the event's schedule, should be released in the next 24 hours or so.
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Susan »

I've split the discussion of the five-second rule, or the two- or three-second rule or what have you, to a new thread.
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by The Goffman Prophecies »

The Motley Eye wrote:http://www.wmata.com/about_metro/news/P ... s=facebook

Metro is closing the Orange Line between the East Falls Church and West Falls Church stops for construction on PACE NSC weekend. They are running shuttle bus service between the two stations, which will add delays if you're planning on using Metro to get to GMU or your hotel.
Just a reminder that there is still planned construction on the Metro next weekend. If you're planning on using Metro, make sure you allow enough time for delays.
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Angry Babies in Love »

The Granny wrote:The updated rules, along with an email to team coaches regarding the event's schedule, should be released in the next 24 hours or so.
Did this ever happen? Neither me nor our coach ever received such an email.
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Captain Sinico »

Hi,
Yes, the rules were finished as advertised and posted here. A link was in the e-mail that I sent to all coaches last week. Please send me your coach's e-mail address so I can verify receipt, as all other important information will reach coaches by e-mail.

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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Andrew's a Freshman »

What is included in the other important information you mentioned? I have the initial e-mail, but chances are I won't hear from my coach between now and Saturday.
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Captain Sinico »

I'll make a post with everything soon, after my second e-mail to coaches.

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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Bloodwych »

Quick question:
What is meant by "hidden power mark"?

Edit: Never mind.
Last edited by Bloodwych on Wed Jun 02, 2010 11:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by BGSO »

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but in previous incarnations of NSC, a power was anything before FTP. Blind powers are what most conventional tournaments use.
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Auks Ran Ova »

BGSO wrote:Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but in previous incarnations of NSC, a power was anything before FTP. Blind powers are what most conventional tournaments use.
Blind powers are now what this tournament is using as well.

EDIT: oh, reading, my old foe. You knew that.
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by nobthehobbit »

BGSO wrote:Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but in previous incarnations of NSC, a power was anything before FTP. Blind powers are what most conventional tournaments use.
Yes. The idea is that you don't know where the power mark is in a question. (And, of course, some tournaments don't use powers at all, but most that do use blind powers, as David said.)
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Down and out in Quintana Roo »

Good luck to everyone at PACE NSC this weekend. Hopefully next year we can make it there.
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Frater Taciturnus »

For those who had not found it by now, there will be liveblogs at http://pacensc.wordpress.com for each day of the PACE NSC.
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by AKKOLADE »

Live coverage, y'all. BOOM
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by AKKOLADE »

Also, Twitter!
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Stained Diviner »

Unofficial stats

As of right now, the top brackets look like:
From Davies: MW A and Stevenson
From Glackens: SC A and Auburn
From Henri: Southside A and Dunbar A
From Lawson: Saint Anselm's and Whitman
From Luks: LASA and TJ A
From Prendergast: Dorman A and DCC A
From Shinn: Georgetown and circle of death between duPont Manual A, Jasper Lee, and St Ignatius
From Sloan: Hunter A and Seven Lakes A

These are not final and completely unofficial.
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Stained Diviner »

Sloan is now a circle of death for first with Hunter, Torrey Pines, and Seven Lakes.
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh »

Westwon wrote:Unofficial stats

As of right now, the top brackets look like:
From Davies: MW A and Stevenson
From Glackens: SC A and Auburn
From Henri: Southside A and Dunbar A
From Lawson: Saint Anselm's and Whitman
From Luks: LASA and TJ A
From Prendergast: Dorman A and DCC A
From Shinn: Georgetown and circle of death between duPont Manual A, Jasper Lee, and St Ignatius
From Sloan: Hunter A and Seven Lakes A

These are not final and completely unofficial.
St. Ignatius won the circle of death; Manual takes 3rd, Jasper 4th.
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by gyre and gimble »

Fun fact: our tiebreaker against Hunter finished 210-210. All tossups and all but one bonus part was converted. We played 3/3 as a "sudden death" and Hunter got all 3 tossups.
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Sir Thopas »

gyre and gimble wrote:Fun fact: our tiebreaker against Hunter finished 210-210. All tossups and all but one bonus part was converted. We played 3/3 as a "sudden death" and Hunter got all 3 tossups.
What was it after 8, 210-130.
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) »

State College and Southside are the finalists. First is the third place game, though, between LASA and Maggie Walker.
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Mechanical Beasts »

Jeremy Gibbs Freesy Does It wrote:State College and Southside are the finalists. First is the third place game, though, between LASA and Maggie Walker.
Which C. Dees is reading!
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Whiter Hydra »

And is on a half-packet for some reason.
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Frater Taciturnus »

Maggie Walker wins 3rd place, GDS takes 6th
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) »

The Gambler, the Nun, and the Radio wrote:And is on a half-packet for some reason.
Because the rules of the tournament have always been announced to have half packet tiebreakers for tied teams, other than the finals.
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by AKKOLADE »

Jeremy Gibbs Freesy Does It wrote:
The Gambler, the Nun, and the Radio wrote:And is on a half-packet for some reason.
Because the rules of the tournament have always been announced to have half packet tiebreakers for tied teams, other than the finals.
Mystery solved!
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Lagotto Romagnolo »

State College wins over Southside.
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Tanay »

When will packets be posted?
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Down and out in Quintana Roo »

Congrats to State College on their win! And congrats to Southside for a great run to the finals.
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by AKKOLADE »

NoWayItsTanay wrote:When will packets be posted?
Sometime after right now!

Hopefully soon, but we may look them over first.
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by pblessman »

Congratulations to State College! Based on your performances at PACE and NAQT SC and Maggie Walker certainly seem worthy co-National Champions!
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by gyre and gimble »

Sir Thopas wrote:
gyre and gimble wrote:Fun fact: our tiebreaker against Hunter finished 210-210. All tossups and all but one bonus part was converted. We played 3/3 as a "sudden death" and Hunter got all 3 tossups.
What was it after 8, 210-130.
Yeah, and it was 210-90 after 7.
pblessman wrote:Congratulations to State College! Based on your performances at PACE and NAQT SC and Maggie Walker certainly seem worthy co-National Champions!
This is most certainly true. A big congrats to both teams. And I noticed State College was once again first to stand up and congratulate their co-finalists, just like they did at HSNCT.
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Edward Powers »

Congratulations to State College---your outstanding 2nd half comeback against a GREAT Southside team was truly exceptional and worthy of the Championship it earned you---and the kids at Southside were among the first to give you a standing ovation for that comeback, so kudos to them as well---great play and great sportsmanship. Congrats also to Maggie Walker and LASA---your tiebreaker for 3rd place was similarly compelling and worthy of the championship calibre teams you both are. And, if I might segue to some 2nd flight teams for a moment---thanks for the great competition. In almost every match we played, the games went back and forth and in general were sharply played as well. My kids loved the excellence of the competition as well as the mutual respect that was displayed throughout. And, without wishing to slight anyone else in this regard, Saint Joe's sends a special thank you and shout out to Jasper Lee of Solon & William Horton of Alpharetta, not only for the stellar calibre of your play, which is obvious to anyone fortunate enough to witness either of you in action, but also for the collegial and generous spirit with which you play, which is a joy to behold. Finally, there is a young man on Loyola whose abilities in physics almost sent our match into a tiebreaker who also deserves such a shout out but sadly we did not get your name---but you know who you are, so thank you as well for your keen display of sportsmanship and intellectual excellence. It was a delight to meet you. And, before closing, I would be remiss if i did not thank Mike Sorice and the entire PACE community for running a wonderful tournament. So: Thank you.
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by abnormal abdomen »

I'm pretty much certain that the Loyola player you're referring to is Nolan Winkler.
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Edward Powers »

Thanks for the info, Abid. And, if I might ask, how did your narrow it down to Nolan? Kidding, of course---I imagine he displays the same admirable abilities and qualities in matches in Illinois as well, making it fairly easy to solve this mystery. And thanks again for doing so.
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Adventure Temple Trail »

A much-deserved congratulations to State College, the clear champion in a Top 8 where no team could go undefeated or lose every game. This tournament showed just how ridiculously good at quizbowl the best of the best high school teams have become, while still offering oodles of good competition for players and teams below that sort-of-frightening level. The new PACE format made games run a lot more quickly, and the 20-point powers help offset the bouncebacks to keep the game balanced.

I do want to comment on two things that could be improved for next year's NSC, both of which have to do with timing in an admittedly difficult-to-run 64 team tournament. The Saturday rounds lasted about two hours longer than originally scheduled, which could be fixed. A lot of the bonuses had overly-long easy and middle parts which seemed to approach three or four lines of text where one or two would do, and while the longer tossups were necessary to top-load the questions with clues for differentiating the best of the best, some began to bog down near the giveaway with easy clue after equally-easy clue. Since this tournament seemed to be written in 12-point TNR, a length cap of 8 lines on tossups and 2 to 2.5 lines on bonus parts would do a lot to keep the tournament moving.
It also seemed like there were pretty large delays in rebracketing and resolving tiebreakers, leading two half-packet games to last almost an hour and a half in one case while the rest of the tournament stayed paused to let the tiebreaker happen. In one case, a superplayoff room turned out to be a stat room for a bracket that had just started playing the previous round. I'm not sure how best to anticipate potential tiebreakers from within a stat room, shuffling the affected teams into a room as quickly as possible, or how to rebracket efficiently with four war rooms spread across two buildings, but it's worth considering the best ways to keep a tournament like this moving well.
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Down and out in Quintana Roo »

If we qualify for this next year (definitely not a certainty), and it's still in the D.C. area, i think we'll find a way to come and probably skip Chicago.

Speaking of which, anybody know the tentative dates for either HSNCT or NSC next year?
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Cheynem »

Speaking as a staffer, it was quite amazing to see a number of terrific teams on display. Besides our eventual, very worthy champion, almost all of the top bracket teams would have been worthy national champions in any other given year. This is impressive. Even teams in the SECOND bracket were teams that would be solid first bracket teams in many years and were very, very impressive teams. Teams that ended up in a bracket lower than they may have liked should be encouraged that the very impressive field made finishing anywhere an accomplishment (and I'm not being sarcastic here!).

I also would like to echo Coach Powers' sentiments that all of the teams i saw showed very impressive sportsmanship. I read for a number of teams--top bracket, bottom bracket, and in between. Throughout the whole day, through blowouts and tight losses and delays, I only noticed a minor handful of complaints or problems. Teams frequently encouraged and congratulated each other, showing a very nice collegial attitude which everyone should try to emulate.

While I am not a dedicated follower of the hgih school circuit, I found it very interesting that while there were some traditional powerhouses in the mix (including the winner), programs that were not well known on the circuit a few years ago (Southside, LASA, St. Anselm's) exploded onto the scene, loaded for bear and ready to win. To use a personal example, I first met Matt Bollinger last year at Cato/Taco. He struck me as a young man who had an interest in quizbowl, but (and if I am misinterpreting Matt's attitudes a year ago, I apologize to him) perhaps it wasn't super important to him. Now, of course, he is unquestionably one of the best high school players in the game. While we should justifiably laud programs built on solid traditions that win championships, we must also acknowledge the rise of other programs in a quick time. This, to me, is very encouraging for high school quizbowl.

Finally, on a personal level, it truly is amazing to see the ways in which high school quizbowl have changed over the years. I played my final HS games in 2002 and now I feel like an old baseball or football player marveling at the new toys the current players have. When I was in HS, I wouldn't have dreamed of attending a collegiate tournament, while almost all of the top flight bracket teams at this tournament had. Many of them have written (!) their own tournaments or at least multiple packets. The solidification of a high school and collegiate circuit filled with quality questions and a supportive atmosphere have made it an exciting and productive time to be a high schooler in quizbowl. I don't want to make it seem like I'm complaining about high schoolers today have advantages I didn't, it's more like an apples and oranges thing--the kids today are doing stuff I wouldn't have dreamed of when I was in high school and the result is a level of competition that truly staggers the mind. During the finals and playoff games, I saw numerous collegiate player staffers (including myself) marvel over some of the buzzes made. It's an exciting time, friends, and I look forward to what the next few years will bring.
Mike Cheyne
Formerly U of Minnesota

"You killed HSAPQ"--Matt Bollinger
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Captain Sinico »

The Gambler, the Nun, and the Radio wrote:And is on a half-packet for some reason.
Half-rounds are in the rules for tiebreakers as mentioned. I will mention to my successor that we might consider changing this for two-way ties, especially for final place in the championship bracket (and I should mention that Dwight Wynne already did suggest it to me, but I didn't implement the change at that time for the reason that doing so would have created a strong possibility that the already-25-round set would have been insufficient to break ties.) As the rules are officially set after the initial tournament meeting, I couldn't have changed to a full packet before the 3rd- and 6th-place tiebreaks, even though I knew at that point that I had four full rounds and assorted extra questions available for three games and that many people found the half-round much less satisfying. It was still a great game, though.

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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Captain Sinico »

NoWayItsTanay wrote:When will packets be posted?
I will send the final versions to Dan Goff to be posted on pace-nsc.org later today. They should appear shortly.

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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by TheKingInYellow »

Are there stats out yet, and I'm just not seeing them?
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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Captain Sinico »

RyuAqua wrote:The Saturday rounds lasted about two hours longer than originally scheduled, which could be fixed.
To keep the facts completely straight, the latest Saturday Round 12 finish that I'm aware of was somewhat before 7, which would be an hour and a half late (itinerary start time for Round 12 was 5, so end time 5:30.) Obviously, that's still not acceptable. We are working hard to do that better next year. In fact, we learned some things immediately, seemingly: everything Sunday was on time or early due in part to (really minor) changes in room setup and tiebreaker determination processes.
RyuAqua wrote:Since this tournament seemed to be written in 12-point TNR, a length cap of 8 lines on tossups and 2 to 2.5 lines on bonus parts would do a lot to keep the tournament moving.
Length caps are an idea I agree with. I'm not sure to what extent, if any, this tournament violated the one you proposed. Perhaps Chris Ray would comment on that.
I do want it to be noted that the median round-start to round-start length was below 30 minutes, even given the questions, for rounds that were actually going. The Saturday delays were due to a very few rooms starting very late in the early rounds, and due to a tiebreaker issue at the post-Round-7 reseed, as I explain below. Thus, if a question length issue did exist, we had enough high-caliber moderators to effectively render it moot.
RyuAqua wrote:It also seemed like there were pretty large delays in rebracketing and resolving tiebreakers, leading two half-packet games to last almost an hour and a half in one case while the rest of the tournament stayed paused to let the tiebreaker happen. In one case, a superplayoff room turned out to be a stat room for a bracket that had just started playing the previous round. I'm not sure how best to anticipate potential tiebreakers from within a stat room, shuffling the affected teams into a room as quickly as possible, or how to rebracket efficiently with four war rooms spread across two buildings, but it's worth considering the best ways to keep a tournament like this moving well.
Well, two things happened here. First, we wound up with a three-way tie for first at the reseeding point in the bracket that was the slowest at that time. In addition, the first game of it went to overtime. Since, given this year's format, the tournament couldn't be reseeded and therefore couldn't proceed until that tie was discovered, the appropriate tiebreaker determined, and the tiebreaker games played (obviously, we did as much of that in advance as possible,) that conspiracy of circumstances delayed the whole tournament significantly. Unfortunately, given the current format, there's no way to prevent that from happening. Fortunately, we can change (some aspects of) the format to make the rebracketing procedure more robust against long tiebreakers. We will definitely look into doing so.
The superplayoff room unavailability was a non-issue. For a variety of reasons, Round 16 (superplayoff round 2) was intentionally made not to start until all other games were complete. Therefore, the game to be played in the room in question, Robinson A101, formerly the flight 3 control room, would not have begun until the attached flight's games were complete anyway. As it wound up, the limiting factor in starting round 16 was the end of games in flight 2, so the room changeover didn't delay the round start of the round at all. Rounds 16, 17 and 18 started at as close to the same time as possible in all (four) rooms.

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Re: PACE NSC: format changes, 2010 information

Post by Whiter Hydra »

Captain Sinico wrote:To keep the facts completely straight, the latest Saturday round 12 finish that I'm aware of was somewhat before 7
Our room finished Round 12 at about 7:15.
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