The Quizbowl Resource Center

NAQT wrote:I.8: In rare cases, an otherwise acceptable answer may be ruled incorrect when it creates ambiguity with another plausible answer (e.g., even though first and last names are almost always sufficient, John Adams would not be acceptable--or promptable--for John Quincy Adams, as it creates confusion with the full name of his presidential father.)

ACF/HSAPQ wrote:G.18. For individuals who share a last name with another person who may be reasonably expected to be an answer in the same general category, some further form of identification may be required, at the discretion of the packet editors. In such cases, usually the first initial of the person's first name will be required. Unlike in the situation of people with identical first and last names, the person's actual first initial or name will usually be required. For example, answering "Shelley" will always result in a prompt for either Mary Wollstonecraft Shelley or Percy Bysshe Shelley, since both are figures from the same period of English literature and are thus considered part of the same general category. Giving either "M. Shelley" or "P. Shelley" is all that is needed to earn credit for a correct response. However, saying "Shelley the male" or "Shelley the wife" is not an acceptable answer to that prompt. As in all situations, commonly used pseudonyms and nicknames are acceptable in this situation.
G.19. For individuals who share both a first and last name with another person who may be reasonably expected to be an answer in the same general category, some further form of identification may be required, at the discretion of the packet editors. In such cases, this identification need only be something that is not already given as a clue and is enough to distinguish the correct answer from the plausible incorrect answer, and need not be formal or complete. For example, “Richard H. Lee” or “Richard Lee from the eighteenth century” is enough to distinguish the Continental Congress member Richard Henry Lee from the Richard Lee who founded the Lee family in Virginia; answering “Richard Lee” for either will earn a prompt. On a question looking for the 43rd U.S. President, “George Bush” will earn a prompt in order to distinguish from the 41st president. At that point, “George W. Bush,” “the second George Bush,” “George Bush the younger” or similar such answers are all acceptable, since the player needs only distinguish the correct answer from the incorrect one, and does not need to demonstrate knowledge of George Walker Bush’s full name.

jonpin wrote:True. Another place of explicit contradiction is that NAQT specifically prompts on Andrew Lloyd Webber and ACF specifically rejects Gabriel Garcia Marquez.

fleurdelivre wrote:

jonpin wrote:True. Another place of explicit contradiction is that NAQT specifically prompts on Andrew Lloyd Webber and ACF specifically rejects Gabriel Garcia Marquez.

How is only a partial name/title promptable? Webber simply isn't correct in this case.

jonah wrote:I won't claim to be able to read the rules' mind, but I think it's reasonable that a player could think "Lloyd" was a middle name that he always used; since the player is demonstrating knowledge and almost certainly has the correct answer in mind, I don't think it's absurd to prompt on that.

Jeremy Gibbs-Duhem Equation wrote:I was at a tournament in Lexington, Missouri and the girl who buzzed for Goethe pronounced it go-eth. The moderator stared at her for a second then accepted it. I have heard other people refer to him as that as well. I assume they just have never heard it actually said and came across it studying on their own.

Jeremy Gibbs-Duhem Equation wrote:I was at a tournament in Lexington, Missouri and the girl who buzzed for Goethe pronounced it go-eth. The moderator stared at her for a second then accepted it. I have heard other people refer to him as that as well. I assume they just have never heard it actually said and came across it studying on their own.

First Chairman wrote:Since I'm no longer moderator, may I suggest moving this discussion to theory?

women, fire and dangerous things wrote:This is somewhat off-topic, but: What is the rationale behind requiring only a first initial to disambiguate people with the same last name? Let's say there's a tossup that goes "blah blah blah, FTP, name this politician and insurance broker whose brother is the Mayor of Chicago." My answer of "Daley" is prompted, and I don't know the first thing about John P. Daley, but I think "hey, there are lot of names starting with J" so I say "J. Daley" and get points.

Given that this could happen, and given that there are no advantages that I can see to requiring only initials over requiring full first names (because I sincerely doubt that there are people who actually know John Daley's first initial but don't also know his first name), I think that this rule should be changed to require full first names.

AlphaQuizBowler wrote:The idea is that you have to give the minimum amount of information to point to a clear, unambiguous answer. So, for Mary and Percy Shelley, M. Shelley and P. Shelley are sufficiently unambiguous, while just plain Shelley is not. By your logic, I could say "I sincerely doubt that there are people who actually know [George Washington's last name] but don't also know his first name," and say we should require full names, but that would just be ridiculous. Requiring anything more than the minimum information is unnecessary and could keep those with knowledge from getting points.

women, fire and dangerous things wrote:This is somewhat off-topic, but: What is the rationale behind requiring only a first initial to disambiguate people with the same last name? Let's say there's a tossup that goes "blah blah blah, FTP, name this politician and insurance broker whose brother is the Mayor of Chicago." My answer of "Daley" is prompted, and I don't know the first thing about John P. Daley, but I think "hey, there are lot of names starting with J" so I say "J. Daley" and get points.

Given that this could happen, and given that there are no advantages that I can see to requiring only initials over requiring full first names (because I sincerely doubt that there are people who actually know John Daley's first initial but don't also know his first name), I think that this rule should be changed to require full first names.

Theory Of The Leisure Flask wrote:Question about rule G19- do questions on the elder Bush normally require more identifying information than "George Bush" (i.e. Bush the Elder, Bush 41, George *Herbert* Walker Bush)? If not, then I don't see how prompting on "George Bush" isn't an asymmetrical situation where the moderator is essentially giving the player information that they shouldn't.

women, fire and dangerous things wrote: But my argument is that requiring the full first name doesn't keep those with knowledge from getting points, because nobody learns somebody's first initial and not their first name. On the other hand, it does allow people without knowledge to get points, as in the example I gave.

jonpin wrote:

Theory Of The Leisure Flask wrote:Question about rule G19- do questions on the elder Bush normally require more identifying information than "George Bush" (i.e. Bush the Elder, Bush 41, George *Herbert* Walker Bush)? If not, then I don't see how prompting on "George Bush" isn't an asymmetrical situation where the moderator is essentially giving the player information that they shouldn't.

That says that ACF's rule is to prompt on George Bush for either one. When it came up after ICT, someone from NAQT said their rule is to do the same. Of course, the Bushes both have middle initials.

Coelacanth wrote:Do you know the first name of Y.A. Tittle, E.L. Doctorow, H.L. Mencken, k.d. lang, etc.? OK, any individual player might know some or all of these, but your statement that nobody learns initials without names is surely unfounded.

women, fire and dangerous things wrote:This is somewhat off-topic, but: What is the rationale behind requiring only a first initial to disambiguate people with the same last name? Let's say there's a tossup that goes "blah blah blah, FTP, name this politician and insurance broker whose brother is the Mayor of Chicago." My answer of "Daley" is prompted, and I don't know the first thing about John P. Daley, but I think "hey, there are lot of names starting with J" so I say "J. Daley" and get points.

Dresden The Moderator wrote:

women, fire and dangerous things wrote:This is somewhat off-topic, but: What is the rationale behind requiring only a first initial to disambiguate people with the same last name? Let's say there's a tossup that goes "blah blah blah, FTP, name this politician and insurance broker whose brother is the Mayor of Chicago." My answer of "Daley" is prompted, and I don't know the first thing about John P. Daley, but I think "hey, there are lot of names starting with J" so I say "J. Daley" and get points.

This was not your point, but I was shocked at HSNCT (as was fellow Illinois guy Matt Laird) that a question regarding a Daley did NOT require clarification. Maybe that's just the Illinois bias, but that seemed odd...

A.B.C.D E.F. Godthaab wrote:I think that some respectable person (I think it was Andrew Hart, but I could be wrong), argued that just giving the final name of hispanic authors should be acceptable-- for example, Lorca for Garcia Lorca, on the grounds that this is the way that scholars tend to refer to them.

Matt Weiner wrote:Federico Garcia Lorca's last name is Lorca, which is why that's acceptable outright. Not all Spanish names are compound; some are.

Alejandro wrote:His last name is Garcia Lorca, not just Lorca.

Matt Weiner wrote:

Alejandro wrote:His last name is Garcia Lorca, not just Lorca.

Britannica refers to him as "Lorca" throughout, and there's lots of articles such as this one http://muse.jhu.edu/login?uri=/journals ... erson.html . (Note: Britannica is not the end of all discussion, because sometimes other rules come into play, as in my argument in the other thread, but in this case, I believe they picked the name for a defensible reason, and there certainly is no other person called "Lorca" that comes up in high school quizbowl to be confused with).

Alejandro wrote:

Matt Weiner wrote:

Alejandro wrote:His last name is Garcia Lorca, not just Lorca.

Britannica refers to him as "Lorca" throughout, and there's lots of articles such as this one http://muse.jhu.edu/login?uri=/journals ... erson.html . (Note: Britannica is not the end of all discussion, because sometimes other rules come into play, as in my argument in the other thread, but in this case, I believe they picked the name for a defensible reason, and there certainly is no other person called "Lorca" that comes up in high school quizbowl to be confused with).

I agree that "Lorca" should be accepted as an answer, as he is commonly referred to by that name. However, Garcia is part of his last name, according to my parents. Also, sites like this one seem to agree.

That Website You Just Linked To wrote:In his poems and plays, Lorca shows himself a careful observer of the speech, music and customs of rural society. One of the mysteries of his work is how the Andalusian countryside, described with such exactitude, is transformed into a universal space where the poet can explore all the deepest concerns of the human heart: desire, love and death, the mystery of identity and the miracle of artistic creation.

Although by Spanish custom his surname is properly Garcia Lorca, he is more commonly known by his mother's surname

klebian wrote:This only tenuously related but should a response of "ethyne" be acceptable for the answer of "acetylene"?

Bakery, State, and Utopia wrote:I don't know if this may fall within the discussion, but for example this year one of the final tu's of our county tournament was on Charles I (Of England), yet I was prompted after I gave Charles I. Apperently I had to say Charles I of England, and looking back on one of the audio casts from NAQT in 2007 I believe, there was a tossup on Constantine I, but the person who responded with it was prompted. Is there any reason behind either of these?