Yet another math thread (split from HFT)

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NRacademicteam
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Re: Yet another math thread (split from HFT)

Post by NRacademicteam »

so then why is opera an academic subject?
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Re: Yet another math thread (split from HFT)

Post by leapfrog314 »

Hey, there's a distinction between the following things:

- Knowledge;
- The ability to perform some knowledge-related process (i.e., calculations, drawing a map of the world, policy debate);
- Things covered by "quizbowl."

A good resource about what is and what isn't "quizbowl" is the QBWiki article on "trivia."

The argument here isn't that racing to compute something first is a "bad" type of competition. Mathcounts exists and I don't think anybody here thinks it should cease to exist. It's also not that computational speed is useless, or that it cannot form the basis for a valid form of competition. The point here is merely that we define what "quizbowl" is, and in our view, that definition does not encompass computational math questions.

Does that help?
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Re: Yet another math thread (split from HFT)

Post by Self-incompatibility in plants »

I don't understand why defense of Chip Beall is so horrible, but I digress. I admitted I do not understand the full concept of this quizbowl, and why it should be any different. So if you could take the liberty to explain it to me, I would appreciate it.
I'm sure there are many people who could do a much better job taking on this task, but I'll take a shot at it. I do want to make a note of this first; many people have already told in this thread what quiz bowl, and if they have not explicitly said "quiz bowl is..." it certainly has been implied, and the very least they have told of what quiz bowl is not [insert Chip Beall here please], and the fact that you seem to be completely ignoring these informative posts is, to me, a huge insight into why you are still continuing this argument. But any way, here it goes:

Quiz Bowl tests and requires you to know information that is generally accepted as respectable academic information (information that would be encountered in school), as opposed to possessing trivia knowledge (information that would encounter on at a bar on a Friday night contest for a prize of free beers). To get a better idea of Quiz Bowl v. Trivia, refer to this thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6441&start=0. In summation though, trivia is simple, quirky information that will never be practical to the person who knows the information. Knowledge for quiz bowl is knowledge that is much more in-depth, and shows actual understanding. Sarah Angelo provided a good example of this:
For example, some quirk of a president vs. his early political career.
Good quiz bowl uses pyramidal style questions that are designed to allow the person who has more in-depth comprehension about a subject get it earlier in the question, and therefore is designed to reward the answerer for their deeper understanding of the subject. Chip Beall therefore, which is purely trivia, with its "lots of one-line tossups and category rounds on rhyming words", does not test deep knowledge and understanding, and therefore is to many people who appreciate the point of quiz bowl not at all respectable. I think that covers what quiz bowl is, and also why Chip Beall is so bad, and if not let me know your questions and hopefully i can answer them for you, and if not me hopefully a more qualified person could.
In addition to math, I am curious about pop culture. Why are operas more sophisticated than modern pop music? Why should we know Beethoven's 9th symphony and not Lupe Fiasco's single "Hip-hop has saved my life?" Explain to me, someone please, why we ignore these categories?
Here is my take on this. The reason we know Beethoven's 9th symphony and not "Lupe Fiasco's single ' Hip-hop has saved my life'" is because, simply put, Beethoven's 9th is actually worth knowing. It is by most standards a masterpiece of music (as is most of the music that comes up in quiz bowl), while most pop-culture music is not, and this can be attested to by the fact that in 10 years time, no one will know the name of that song, while we still know of Beethoven's work hundreds of years later. For example, in some random episode of American Idol, one of the finalists sang a hit song by the band 311 (a popular band from the 90s), and virtually none of the judges knew of the song or even of this band, which was wildly popular over a decade ago (and they are supposedly music experts). But I can tell you with great confidence that at least some of them, if not all of them, could tell you that, if Beethoven's 9th was played for them, that the song they are hearing is Beethoven's 9th symphony because it is a master piece and has lasted the test of time. Hence the reason why we know of it, as opposed to "Hip-hop saved my life".
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Re: Yet another math thread (split from HFT)

Post by Whiter Hydra »

NRacademicteam wrote:so then why is opera an academic subject?
Basically, if in one hundred years (of solitude?), the thing in question is still notable, then it can probably be considered academic. The Magic Flute has proven to last, while I'm fairly certain no one will care about Chali 2na in the year 2100. Academics deals with things that last, pop culture deals with fads.
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Re: Yet another math thread (split from HFT)

Post by Pilgrim »

la2pgh wrote:compared the relative merits of Black Thought and Chali 2na.
Wait, this is a joke, right? Anybody who thinks Chali 2na can even be mentioned in the same sentence as Black Thought is clearly off their rocker.
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Re: Yet another math thread (split from HFT)

Post by AdamL »

Sorry to interrupt this train wreck, but:
AHS Eagles wrote: Thanks to Douglas for enlarging my cannon
Yeah, I'm mature like that
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Re: Yet another math thread (split from HFT)

Post by grapesmoker »

NRacademicteam wrote:Trey and Carlo-

Thank you so much for explaining to me what quizbowl actually is. I don't know if this changes my opinion on whether math should be included, but it certainly forces the alternate opinion to enter my mind. I did not fully understand the concept of quizbowl, but I think I do now.
I must disagree, though, on the fact of Chip Beall. I think quizbowl players don't understand the concept of Chip Beall. It is a competition more laid back, and a lot about fun. Quizbowl, on the other hand, seems to be a more serious, historical and literature-based competition. I understand now why you guys think that math shouldn't be involved, and how you wish to protect what quizbowl is, but I must say I enjoy Chip much more because of it's laid back style and fun layout.
[PLEASE don't bash me now..]
Hey, stop accusing people of wanting to "protect" quizbowl by keeping math out. No one wants to do that. I don't like to pull rank on people, but I actually have spent almost a decade studying things like math and physics at the college level (as have several other people on this board) and none of them want to do what you suggest. It's just that we understand that computational things make for bad quizbowl. Moreover, you will find, if you go on to study either mathematics or physics at a high level, that no one there cares about your computational skills either; in fact, the vast majority of what you would do in such classes has nothing to do with outright computation and much more to do with reasoning through the problem. In some of my classes, knowing how to set up the problem and write down the integral for solving it was worth most of the points, and the solution was just a mechanical exercise so you wouldn't forget how to do basic things.

Also, stop talking about how laid back and fun Chip Beall is. Chip Beall is a dishonest swindler who has a track record of explicit favoritism towards his chosen favorites and of stealing questions from other writers. That, quality aside, is enough to suggest that no one should associate with is organization. Chip Beall's questions are "fun" if your idea of fun is stimulus-response buzzing instead of knowing things.

It's very simple: quizbowl is a game about learning, and you win by knowing things with academic value. Calculation has very little academic value, as do most pop-culture subjects. My suggestion to you is that you try and understand this; if you cannot, maybe this isn't the game for you.
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Re: Yet another math thread (split from HFT)

Post by Skepticism and Animal Feed »

NRacademicteam wrote: But I don't understand what makes the operas "fine art" and academia and intelligence relating to modern culture unnecessary and frowned upon.
There is an entire realm of quizbowl that tests nothing except "intelligence relating to modern culture". In fact, there is a forum for it on this very website: viewforum.php?f=19

In fact, some people play both regular quizbowl and "intelligence relating to modern culture" quizbowl. If you want to demonstrate to somebody that your knowledge is more "well rounded" then theirs, why not participate in both forms of quizbowl? If you want to demonstrate that you are "well-rounded" in many things, wouldn't winning multiple specialized competitions be a better way of proving it?
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Re: Yet another math thread (split from HFT)

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) »

Bruce, I think it's pretty hard to expect a high schooler to go to college tournaments on their own, much less trash. When one is in college that obviously doesn't become as crazy to say, but for now I think we need to work within the realm of reason in dealing with what high schoolers can and cant go to.
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Re: Yet another math thread (split from HFT)

Post by AKKOLADE »

AdamL wrote:Sorry to interrupt this train wreck, but:
AHS Eagles wrote: Thanks to Douglas for enlarging my cannon
Yeah, I'm mature like that
hehehehe
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Re: Yet another math thread (split from HFT)

Post by mithokie »

Fred Morlan wrote:
AdamL wrote:Sorry to interrupt this train wreck, but:
AHS Eagles wrote: Thanks to Douglas for enlarging my cannon
Yeah, I'm mature like that
hehehehe
Although it was at my expense, I laughed out loud at that one.
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Re: Yet another math thread (split from HFT)

Post by Whiter Hydra »

Pilgrim wrote:
la2pgh wrote:compared the relative merits of Black Thought and Chali 2na.
Wait, this is a joke, right? Anybody who thinks Chali 2na can even be mentioned in the same sentence as Black Thought is clearly off their rocker.
We're already talking about the NAC and Good Quizbowl.
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Re: Yet another math thread (split from HFT)

Post by Stained Diviner »

I know I promised yesterday to say something in this thread about computational math, but, given the facts that I'm busy and this thread is what this thread is, I'm backing down.
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Re: Yet another math thread (split from HFT)

Post by AKKOLADE »

Shcool wrote:I know I promised yesterday to say something in this thread about computational math, but, given the facts that I'm busy and this thread is what this thread is, I'm backing down.
Good choice, son. Good choice.
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Re: Yet another math thread (split from HFT)

Post by Self-incompatibility in plants »

AHS Eagles wrote: Thanks to Douglas for enlarging my cannon



Yeah, I'm mature like that
I had the great misfortune of having to reading this in one of my classes, and since I literately laughed, very loudly, out loud, I had to explain to my curious classmates and teacher what I had found so funny. Awkward much?
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