A Thread About KAAC And Stuff

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A Thread About KAAC And Stuff

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) »

Hopefully teams figure out soon that the reason Gov Cup can't be predicted by other tournaments is that it has lots of poor questions, not to mention the hilarious double elimination, whereas events hosting events on pyramidal questions are of a higher quality.
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Re: Kentucky 08-09

Post by Coach K »

jackatthedisco wrote:Well, teams change as the years go on. Players come and go.
Although tournaments can give you an idea, unless they are GovCup style, then it's impossible to guess how a team will do at GovCup.
That's not true at all. The Kentucky teams who perform best out-of-state are almost always the teams that perform best at Governor's Cup. The only different between those teams at the two tournaments is that they need a player to focus on math for Gov. Cup.

And we get it Charlie. You hate Governor's Cup and math. We don't need you to keep reminding us every time you get bored and decide to jump in to the Kentucky thread. You won't find anyone here who disagrees that some Governor's Cup questions have been awful in the past. However, I feel it has been improving consistently over the last few years and that the people in this state want to keep seeing it get better. As I'm sure you're aware, it's difficult to make sweeping changes in a format that is the only thing the majority of teams have known.
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Re: Kentucky 08-09

Post by Matt Weiner »

Coach K wrote:And we get it Charlie. You hate Governor's Cup and math. We don't need you to keep reminding us every time you get bored and decide to jump in to the Kentucky thread.
Two suggestions for you (the first is actually not a suggestion at all, but something you will need to comply with):
1) You are not a moderator of this board and may not tell other people where or how to post.
2) If you want to people to stop reminding you that computational math tossups make your quizbowl format bad, one way to achieve this is to get rid of the computational math tossups, since they make your quizbowl format bad.
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Re: Kentucky 08-09

Post by ericblair »

Coach K has some valid points. It is pretty difficult to just up and change a format that so many have played on for so long. And he's right in his observation that the style has been consistently changing. I think everyone has noticed this. It has progressed into a style that makes it still a relatively fast-paced game that now tests more so the knowledge, rather than the quickness, of students. I'm quite satisfied with the way it is now. If it were to completely go to "standard quiz bowl" then it wouldn't give kids in KY much option on styles of play. It would allow for little variety, which could be important for some. I think it would be cool to change regional league play (EKAC, North KY, etc) to typical quizbowl format while keeping GovCup shorter like it is now. That would still allow for the whole variety thing. And of course if that doesn't fly well with most teams then you could always change back after the first year.

As far as math computation questions, that is a tough one. I'm not good at them and don't really care for them. But I can see why they are used; they test abilities which are associated with the state-wide curriculum. Most kids are quite okay with computational tossups being in sets, and that's what it's about, right? All the kids and not just an elite group of travelling teams?? And I think that is exactly why KAAC (GovCup) exists--to make their game accessible to kids no matter what they are good at, which would of course include computation. It wasn't created to be just like all other quiz bowl circuits and merely fail in their attempt. From what I gather, it developed rather independently of what was going on elsewhere in the country, forming along the way its (love it or hate it) different approach. I don't mean this in a smart ass way, but it's strange, though, that this "bad format" attracts 20,000+ participants each year. Again (love it or hate it), there must be something that is appealing to people about the style, or else they wouldn't keep coming back for more year after year. It really is impressive.

And yes, in recent years, those who do well at GovCup likewise do well out-of-state. Back in my day (just four years ago), not the case. We'd play Johnson Central on quick recall sets and lose like 75 percent of the time. Then we'd go out of state where more in depth knowledge was tested and beat them--in my junior and senior year--100 percent of the time. Asi es la vida.
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Re: Kentucky 08-09

Post by ericblair »

Charlie, I don't wanna hate on you man, but I wonder, what is the connection you have with GovCup? Did you go to school here once and participate in it? Or have you just heard that the questions aren't 5+ sentences long and have computation and automatically assume it is terirble? I understand your views and love playing the typical quiz bowl format probably just as much as you, but I don't think I'd be so critical without having actually competed in the competition (correct me though if i'm wrong on this). As a former player in GovCup (during what I consider an era of VERY LOW question quality!) I still found it very fun. Maybe there is some sort of essence that you just have to experience. I don't know dude. Is that kind of weird? :lol:

Anyway, I'm just wanting to get a good sense of what kind of position you are in to judge the competition. That's all, man. I don't want you to leave the thread or anything, because I think that all opinions on the subject are worth hearing, even if they are VERY critical.
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Re: Kentucky 08-09

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) »

Maybe that I wrote some questions for Gov Cup last year and find the desired style to be incompatible with good questions?
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Re: Kentucky 08-09

Post by The Time Keeper »

ericblair wrote:Charlie, I don't wanna hate on you man, but I wonder, what is the connection you have with GovCup? Did you go to school here once and participate in it? Or have you just heard that the questions aren't 5+ sentences long and have computation and automatically assume it is terirble? I understand your views and love playing the typical quiz bowl format probably just as much as you, but I don't think I'd be so critical without having actually competed in the competition (correct me though if i'm wrong on this). As a former player in GovCup (during what I consider an era of VERY LOW question quality!) I still found it very fun. Maybe there is some sort of essence that you just have to experience. I don't know dude. Is that kind of weird? :lol:

Anyway, I'm just wanting to get a good sense of what kind of position you are in to judge the competition. That's all, man. I don't want you to leave the thread or anything, because I think that all opinions on the subject are worth hearing, even if they are VERY critical.
Our good friend Charlie can be a little vocal at times about his feelings concerning good quizbowl. I know he's an outsider to the state's competition and sometimes his tone isn't exactly conducive to generating healthy discussion, but that pales in comparison to the fact that he's dead on in his assessments.
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Re: Kentucky 08-09

Post by ericblair »

Deesy Does It wrote:Maybe that I wrote some questions for Gov Cup last year and find the desired style to be incompatible with good questions?
You still haven't actually been a student here that has played in one of the GovCup tournaments. Probably, your thoughts would be a little different had that been the case. But I definitely understand how you would feel the way you do, though, being someone who is used to something else.

What is the desired style? As far as that goes it can't be that unless you think it's absolutely terrible to maintain a length of about two or three sentences to make for quicker rounds. Other than that it seems that you are free to do whatever, which means creatively make them into "mini pyramid" questions, thus making for a better game in my opinion while still keeping that fast-paced element. You can also make sure the kids get questions on good material instead of absolute garbage that I have heard come up in other quick recall (not necessarily GovCup) sets. I don't find that too repulsive compared to Question Well, Knowledge Master, past GovCup contracted questions, etc. At least it's a step in the right direction. I mean, I have never heard a question writer be restricted to put "This 1906 Upton Sinclair novel.." or "This conductor of the oil drop experiment..." at the beginning of a question. There seems to be room, albeit little, to put lesser known clues.

Personally, I don't think KAAC should go to the typical quiz bowl format unless of course if that is what THOSE WHO PLAY the questions convened and decided upon. As much as I wouldn't mind it going that way, Charlie, I don't want to step on anyone's toes if they are perfectly content with how they play. Just think, it's less competition for your team when you are faced with a KY team at a non-KY tournament. But as far as the feedback I've seen on here (which by no means justifies the opinions of the whole league), people are pretty much okay with the direction it has been going towards.

I feel like I've repeated myself in a few spots. Sorry I have. I won't post again until it's clear I have something new to say. =P
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Re: Kentucky 08-09

Post by ClemsonQB »

ericblair wrote:Just think, it's less competition for your team when you are faced with a KY team at a non-KY tournament.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I believe Charlie's passion for quizbowl goes deeper than how successful his own team is. In fact, I believe that Charlie would gladly lose to a well-prepared, knowledgeable opponent, regardless of where they're from.
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Re: Kentucky 08-09

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) »

Precisely. On the unlikely chance that I play against high school players in the near future (as I've lost the desire to play high school teams unless they admirably decide to show up to college events or opens, unlike some people much older than myself) I would gladly lose to a high school team that has put in the effort to be better players than I, along with college teams who are better than mine.
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Re: Kentucky 08-09

Post by thescienceguy »

Matt Weiner wrote:
Coach K wrote:And we get it Charlie. You hate Governor's Cup and math. We don't need you to keep reminding us every time you get bored and decide to jump in to the Kentucky thread.
Two suggestions for you (the first is actually not a suggestion at all, but something you will need to comply with):
1) You are not a moderator of this board and may not tell other people where or how to post.
2) If you want to people to stop reminding you that computational math tossups make your quizbowl format bad, one way to achieve this is to get rid of the computational math tossups, since they make your quizbowl format bad.
Let me see if I have this correct, you can call out Coack K for his comment but it is OK for you to make the statement that KY's quizbowl format is bad. You may want to check the title of this forum, it is for KY and if someone makes negative comments about KY's format then it was OK for Coack K to send them packing.

You may make any judgement you want about KY's format but I will take students that show higher order thinking skills who can do computational math.

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Last edited by thescienceguy on Tue Sep 23, 2008 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Kentucky 08-09

Post by Matt Weiner »

thescienceguy wrote:Let me see if I have this correct, you can call out Coack K for his comment but it is OK for you to make the statement that KY's quizbowl format is bad. You may want to check the title of this forum, it is for KY and if someone makes negative comments about KY's format then it was OK for Coack K to send them packing.

You may make any judgement you want about KY's format but I will take students that show higher order thinking skills by doing computational math over a bunch of students that have learned insignificant facts and can regurgitate the trivia once they hear the operative "buzz" word (reminds me of Pavlov's dogs).

Frank Arnold
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Rule #6: "Deriding people for enjoying quizbowl or intellectual activities is not permitted." Furthermore, the title of this forum is "The Quizbowl Resource Center," and no one "owns" regional threads or can otherwise bar people from outside the region from contributing to them.

Please reconsider your posting tactics if you wish to continue posting here at all. Since you appear to despise quizbowl and find no value in it, may I suggest this, this, or this as activities more suited to your interests? Your switching to those activities may also suit an interest of mine; specifically, my great disinterest in having people post to the quizbowl board about how quizbowl sucks and should be replaced with math contests. So, everyone will win!
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Re: Kentucky 08-09

Post by quizbowllee »

thescienceguy wrote:You may make any judgement you want about KY's format but I will take students that show higher order thinking skills by doing computational math over a bunch of students that have learned insignificant facts and can regurgitate the trivia once they hear the operative "buzz" word (reminds me of Pavlov's dogs).

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Wow. Did you really just say that on a QUIZBOWL message board? You realize that you just insulted everyone on this board, right? I usually try to avoid posting in out-of-state threads and I usually don't put my nose in where it doesn't belong, but you crossed a line here. If that is really what you think quizbowl is, then you need to go doodle your equations somewhere else and leave this game to those who understand and appreciate it.
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Re: Kentucky 08-09

Post by Mechanical Beasts »

thescienceguy wrote:Let me see if I have this correct, you can call out Coack K for his comment but it is OK for you to make the statement that KY's quizbowl format is bad. You may want to check the title of this forum, it is for KY and if someone makes negative comments about KY's format then it was OK for Coack K to send them packing.
I'm unfamiliar with Kentucky's politics, but even if this Coach K owns the state of Kentucky, or even its quizbowl organization, this message board has been provided to you by PACE, and Coach K certainly doesn't own PACE.

Also, while I know it's a horribly common strategy, I don't know if you want to promote the notion that your quizbowl format is so vulnerable to attack that it's okay for some state coach to dismiss anyone who suggests that it can be improved.

I'm pretty sure it takes a greater understanding of math to answer a theoretical math tossup on cosets early in the question than it does to calculate how much paint Petey needs to buy to paint the walls of his icosahedral room. Watch out! He doesn't want to paint the floor!

Oh, and of course Matt can enforce board rules (to "call out Coach K for his comment") while simultaneously expressing an opinion about quizbowl.

EDIT: coherence
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Re: Kentucky 08-09

Post by David Riley »

Defending KY format is one thing, but to totally dismiss other (the implied NAQT and PACE) formats as trivia is insulting. If anything, these formats go above and beyond quick recall of knowledge. The writers in and of these formats challenge and expand the curricular canon, it is hardly trivia. The pyramidality of the questions rewards the player with deeper knowledge of subjects and they often have to apply or synthesize information in order to get the answer.

Doesn't that place the formats that Matt, Charlie, etc., espouse as higher-order thinking skills above and beyond quick recall?? I understand that KY's format has come a long way over the past several years [and certainly since I graduated from Atherton HS in Louisville, class of 1974, when High Q was about the only thing available], but isn't it still essentially quick recall?
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Re: Kentucky 08-09

Post by thescienceguy »

Matt Weiner wrote:
thescienceguy wrote:Let me see if I have this correct, you can call out Coack K for his comment but it is OK for you to make the statement that KY's quizbowl format is bad. You may want to check the title of this forum, it is for KY and if someone makes negative comments about KY's format then it was OK for Coack K to send them packing.

You may make any judgement you want about KY's format but I will take students that show higher order thinking skills by doing computational math over a bunch of students that have learned insignificant facts and can regurgitate the trivia once they hear the operative "buzz" word (reminds me of Pavlov's dogs).

Frank Arnold
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Rule #6: "Deriding people for enjoying quizbowl or intellectual activities is not permitted." Furthermore, the title of this forum is "The Quizbowl Resource Center," and no one "owns" regional threads or can otherwise bar people from outside the region from contributing to them.

Please reconsider your posting tactics if you wish to continue posting here at all. Since you appear to despise quizbowl and find no value in it, may I suggest this, this, or this as activities more suited to your interests? Your switching to those activities may also suit an interest of mine; specifically, my great disinterest in having people post to the quizbowl board about how quizbowl sucks and should be replaced with math contests. So, everyone will win!
Maybe I misunderstood your comment under #2. To me the last part of your sentence seems to be in violation of the same rule your accusing me of violating.

I'm am not saying computational math is the only thing important. As with most school curriculum, the entire range of subjects should be included. The QR portion of KY format is very small in terms of winning competitions. The in depth knowledge is testing on written exams. For the creative thinker, there is FPS and English composition. KY has a total package which is more student inclusive. I just don't like people posting that our format is bad because we do computational math.


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Re: Kentucky 08-09

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) »

Maybe I misunderstood your comment under #2. To me the last part of your sentence seems to be in violation of the same rule your accusing me of violating.
...What?
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Re: Kentucky 08-09

Post by The Time Keeper »

thescienceguy wrote: You may make any judgement you want about KY's format but I will take students that show higher order thinking skills by doing computational math over a bunch of students that have learned insignificant facts and can regurgitate the trivia once they hear the operative "buzz" word (reminds me of Pavlov's dogs).

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If you had any familiarity with good quizbowl there is no way you would make such an analogy. In fact, the quick question "buzz on the Pavlovian trigger word" type of quizbowl is exactly what the people on this site are all about trying to eliminate.
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Re: Kentucky 08-09

Post by Stained Diviner »

Just to add some historical perspective here, Governor's Cup was a series of academic contests, one aspect of which has been Quizbowl. When it was first organized, the idea was that the various academic contests would test different aspects of learning. The Quizbowl competition was designed to test the ability to quickly recall facts, and Kentuckians even called it Quick Recall. This was done many years ago, before pyramidal questions were nationally normal. In some ways, Kentucky was ahead of the curve, because they realized that Quizbowl as it was played in the old days was a very imperfect test of academic knowledge, and they supplemented it with other academic competitions that didn't involve buzzer races.

For the last decade, many of the leaders in quizbowl outside of Kentucky have not been involved directly in other academic competitions and have found ways to make quizbowl more valid by asking better questions and adjusting the formats to allow for better questions. Kentucky has made a little movement in the same direction, but their view of quizbowl to some extent is different than the rest of the country's. For some of us, Quizbowl is THE academic competition, and we have made efforts to make it worthwhile as an independent activity. In Kentucky, Quizbowl is AN academic competition, and many people see it as a way of supplementing other academic competitions. They are less bothered by speed checks in quizbowl, since the team whose only skill is buzzing in quickly will lose Future Problem Solving and Written Assessments.
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Re: Kentucky 08-09

Post by AKKOLADE »

thescienceguy wrote:...over a bunch of students that have learned insignificant facts and can regurgitate the trivia once they hear the operative "buzz" word (reminds me of Pavlov's dogs).

Frank Arnold
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thescienceguy wrote:Maybe I misunderstood your comment under #2. To me the last part of your sentence seems to be in violation of the same rule your accusing me of violating.
Yeah, there's no accusing here, because you actually did do that. Also, Matt didn't insult math, just noted that it does not fit with his beliefs (or many other peoples' beliefs) of good quiz bowl.
thescienceguy wrote:As with most school curriculum, the entire range of subjects should be included.
It shouldn't, though - if you go with this hypothesis, then we're going to need questions on driver's education, workshop, cooking, newspaper information, physical education - and none of those subjects lend themselves to a good batch of pyramidal questions.
thescienceguy wrote:The QR portion of KY format is very small in terms of winning competitions.
If you care about the entire Governor's Cup program, this is technically true, but as this is a quiz bowl forum, and this thread is dedicated to quiz bowl discussion, the Quick Recall portion is what is being discussed in this thread exclusively.
thescienceguy wrote:The in depth knowledge is testing on written exams.
There's no reason in depth knowledge cannot be tested with quiz bowl as well, though. Pyramidal quiz bowl can just as effectively test knowledge as quick recall, while testing depth of knowledge as well as ability to recall quickly. Written exams remove the speed factor, and are also a lot less of a game.
thescienceguy wrote:KY has a total package which is more student inclusive.
Once again, you're accounting for the whole Governor's Cup program when discussion is about Quick Recall.
thescienceguy wrote:I just don't like people posting that our format is bad because we do computational math.
The format is flawed because of the presence of computational math; it's also hampered by the fact that the questions are too short to truly test depth of knowledge, resulting in a game that often tests reflexes rather than knowledge. In fact, I would argue that Quick Recall is more Pavlovian than pyramidal quiz bowl.
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Re: Kentucky 08-09

Post by akinney »

As a user from Kentucky, and someone who uses the Governor's Cup quick recall format (and depises it, mind you), I'd just like to say that I think everyone is being too rabid about this. There is a lack of civility in the air. It is almost as if you all are ganging up on the anti-quiz bowl poster.

The underlying principle in Kentucky is that Gov Cup is inclusive. All schools in Kentucky participate in this format. If you made it test depth of knowledge then schools would stop participating. Yes, it tests reflexes, but I truly believe it is as close as Kentucky will get.

And as far as quiz bowl goes, I love it. The pyramidal questions are the way to go, but that's not saying a team cannot simultaneously participate in Governor's Cup and quiz bowl. Yes, our system is flawed, but at least we can travel within 300 miles of our state's borders (or however that stupid Missouri rule is).

I think it's important to realize that the KAAC people will probably NEVER change their format, because it needs to be universal as far as Kentucky schools go. So arguing here about computational math and short one-line questions among ourselves is useless. Can we please discuss something better now? Like, some early rankings for Kentucky teams.

Namely, Dunbar.

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Re: Kentucky 08-09

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) »

Dude, the guy was violating basic rules of the forum and was being told not to do that because insulting quizbowl on a quizbowl forum is a fast track to aggravating people.
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Re: Kentucky 08-09

Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh »

akinney wrote:I think it's important to realize that the KAAC people will probably NEVER change their format, because it needs to be universal as far as Kentucky schools go. So arguing here about computational math and short one-line questions among ourselves is useless.
Actually, taking the defeatist attitude that the KAAC format for Quick Recall can never be changed is useless. Discussing the need for Quick Recall to start using better quality (read: longer) questions, as well as losing computational math, is rather useful, as QR is currently bad quizbowl. For starters, computational math can be shifted into the non-quizbowl portion of Governor's Cup. That would actually be very good for math, as the quick recall format is restrictive as to what concepts and abilities it can test.
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Re: Kentucky 08-09

Post by Mechanical Beasts »

akinney wrote:The underlying principle in Kentucky is that Gov Cup is inclusive. All schools in Kentucky participate in this format. If you made it test depth of knowledge then schools would stop participating. Yes, it tests reflexes, but I truly believe it is as close as Kentucky will get.
Everyone in support of a bad format has said this at one point or another. The two-pronged response, usually posted by Matt, which I've yet to see meaningfully contradicted is:
1. More students than Gov Cup probably play baseball, but we don't call baseball quizbowl and say that it's close enough. We contend that Gov Cup merits a separate category from pyramidal good quizbowl, as your own classification scheme indicates. But the fact that it is inclusive doesn't make it good, or any "more" quizbowl than "not really." It is good to be inclusive by having novice circuits. I guarantee you that your packets are not meaningfully easier than a NAQT A-set. It is not good to be inclusive by redefining the activity to include what you want.
2. There's a reason that good quizbowl has spread and is spreading, why the NAC attracts fewer teams than ever and PACE more than ever. There's a reason why more high schoolers are playing more college tournaments every year. Some of these quizbowlers are from places where bad quizbowl predominates! The idea that Kentucky will inherently never be able to play good questions ignores the fact that good questions are no harder to answer and the fact that there are individuals in Kentucky capable of playing at a high level who are constrained by these rules.

The reason that Gov Cup isn't a terrible institution is because it doesn't stop people from playing real quizbowl if they want to. But that doesn't mean that the questions themselves aren't bad, or that they can't be subject to legitimate criticism.
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Re: Kentucky 08-09

Post by AKKOLADE »

akinney wrote:The underlying principle in Kentucky is that Gov Cup is inclusive. All schools in Kentucky participate in this format. If you made it test depth of knowledge then schools would stop participating. Yes, it tests reflexes, but I truly believe it is as close as Kentucky will get.
I do not believe this. If there was any sort of data showing otherwise, I could maybe buy it, but without that I don't foresee this happening.
akinney wrote:I think it's important to realize that the KAAC people will probably NEVER change their format
Speaking vaguely and with the necessary knowledge to say this without just wildly speculating, I am pretty sure you're wrong on this point.
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Re: Kentucky 08-09

Post by ericblair »

akinney wrote:I think it's important to realize that the KAAC people will probably NEVER change their format
Speaking vaguely and with the necessary knowledge to say this without just wildly speculating, I am pretty sure you're wrong on this point.[/quote]

Definitely. To say they will NEVER change is a bet you're probably going to lose. The reforms in just the past few years show that they are already embracing change. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if KAAC does replace the quick recall competition with standard QB in the next few years. It's made several changes in that direction. It's just going to take a little time to gradually get people into that style. And frankly, teams like Russell, Dunbar, Pikeville, etc. who have significant experience with QB and who really like it have a great lobbying power in the state. People in KY look to teams like that for academic competition expertise. I, in fact, have discussed with some isolated teams in KY why pyramid structure is more beneficial. The big problem with those kind of teams, though, is the whole attention span thing; however, they do (by the end of our conversations) understand the merits of pyramid quiz bowl format and react favorably to it.
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Re: Kentucky 08-09

Post by akinney »

leftsaidfred wrote:
akinney wrote:I think it's important to realize that the KAAC people will probably NEVER change their format
Speaking vaguely and with the necessary knowledge to say this without just wildly speculating, I am pretty sure you're wrong on this point.
Has anyone ever tried to get KAAC to use more pyramidal toss-ups?

And I will repeat, I do NOT like Governor's Cup or quick recall. I play it as a necessary evil. I just have trouble with the idea that the KAAC cares, because the Kentucky schools will play it however they do it.
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Re: Kentucky 08-09

Post by Captain Sinico »

I'd like to challenge your claim that if the QR part of Gov. Cup changed to better questions, attendance would drop off. Pretty much that exact change in Illinois has not produced the effect you're saying is inevitable. On the other hand, the fact that so many people play Gov. Cup QR now (and probably will continue to) makes it much, much more worthwhile to get its format changed to something more rewarding to knowledge.

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Re: Kentucky 08-09

Post by AKKOLADE »

akinney wrote:
leftsaidfred wrote:
akinney wrote:I think it's important to realize that the KAAC people will probably NEVER change their format
Speaking vaguely and with the necessary knowledge to say this without just wildly speculating, I am pretty sure you're wrong on this point.
Has anyone ever tried to get KAAC to use more pyramidal toss-ups?

And I will repeat, I do NOT like Governor's Cup or quick recall. I play it as a necessary evil. I just have trouble with the idea that the KAAC cares, because the Kentucky schools will play it however they do it.
KAAC cares and have taken steps to increase the pyramidality of their questions in the past two years. I am trying to give you info while also not revealing specific info for fears of saying stuff that was supposed to be private, but trust me - things are being worked on.
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Re: Kentucky 08-09

Post by Coach K »

kyqbowl wrote:
Coach K wrote:
jackatthedisco wrote:Well, teams change as the years go on. Players come and go.
Although tournaments can give you an idea, unless they are GovCup style, then it's impossible to guess how a team will do at GovCup.
That's not true at all. The Kentucky teams who perform best out-of-state are almost always the teams that perform best at Governor's Cup. The only different between those teams at the two tournaments is that they need a player to focus on math for Gov. Cup.

And we get it Charlie. You hate Governor's Cup and math. We don't need you to keep reminding us every time you get bored and decide to jump in to the Kentucky thread. You won't find anyone here who disagrees that some Governor's Cup questions have been awful in the past. However, I feel it has been improving consistently over the last few years and that the people in this state want to keep seeing it get better. As I'm sure you're aware, it's difficult to make sweeping changes in a format that is the only thing the majority of teams have known.

I actually tend to disagree with Coach K. Sure, usually teams that perform well out of state (dunbar and danville) do well in GovCup. However, GovCup is still a long way from good quizbowl. It is too hard to differentiate by score between good and bad teams. Too many questions end up being buzzer races because it is not pyramidal.
I'm certainly not contending that Governor's Cup is good quiz bowl. Governor's Cup is Quick Recall. I understand that computational math makes for bad quizbowl, but I won't apologize for liking it in the one format that it shows up in (I will apologize to Charlie, the moderators, or anyone else I may have offended with my initial comments, however).

I just think the teams that are good at quiz bowl have less of an adjustment to make than many are suggesting, especially with the questions over the last couple of years. It's not perfect and, as Aaron points out, it may never be. But in general the best out-of-state teams are the best Governor's Cup teams.
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Re: A Thread About KAAC And Stuff

Post by ericblair »

If you don't know the people at KAAC then don't make that kind of a comment. Anyone who knows them knows that they care. And Fred echoed what I was going to say before I..umm..didn't get some emails about my sig, and got banned. XD
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Re: Kentucky 08-09

Post by Coach K »

styxman wrote:
akinney wrote:I think it's important to realize that the KAAC people will probably NEVER change their format, because it needs to be universal as far as Kentucky schools go. So arguing here about computational math and short one-line questions among ourselves is useless.
Actually, taking the defeatist attitude that the KAAC format for Quick Recall can never be changed is useless. Discussing the need for Quick Recall to start using better quality (read: longer) questions, as well as losing computational math, is rather useful, as QR is currently bad quizbowl. For starters, computational math can be shifted into the non-quizbowl portion of Governor's Cup. That would actually be very good for math, as the quick recall format is restrictive as to what concepts and abilities it can test.
There's already some of this in the individual testing (Governor's Cup has separate tests in Arts and Humanities - Language Arts - Math - Science - Social Studies). I think I really like the idea of separating the math part of Quick Recall and then changing the rest to a quizbowl format.

Actually, didn't Kentucky have a math competition along those lines in the early 90s? Sweet 16 or something? Maybe KAAC can resurrect that as part of Governor's Cup.
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Re: A Thread About KAAC And Stuff

Post by Stained Diviner »

A few years ago, I had a conversation with some of the people running KAAC and exchanged some emails with them. I was pretty impressed by their level of commitment and their understanding. They may be behind the curve now in terms of format and question quality, but I would bet that things will get better. KAAC is having a big meeting in Louisville this weekend, and it's probably a good opportunity to talk to them. Demanding that big changes be made this year won't accomplish much, but talking to them respectfully about the state of the game and how it could be better probably will.

To the best of my knowledge, Kentucky has the highest participation rate in quizbowl of any state in the country. If they changed to a format that resembles NAQT, they would still have a huge number of teams. Furthermore, KAAC is not run by a bunch of football coaches who think that anything that works for sports should apply to quizbowl. It is run by people who are organized and care about the consequences of their actions. They have been slow to make changes to the game, but I think some Kentucky coaches telling them that question quality is a front-burner issue could change that. Additionally, unlike several other states, my sense is that KAAC would take input from other states (or PACE) seriously if it was written in an adult-to-adult tone. As with any big organization, you won't get everything you want right away, but real improvement is a real possibility.
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Re: A Thread About KAAC And Stuff

Post by First Chairman »

I'll note that KAAC did seek input regarding pyramidality and have been trying to strongly push its question writers towards more pyramidal questions even at the middle school level. There is still much work to do, but there is more willingness to make some changes compared to... Missouri.
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Re: A Thread About KAAC And Stuff

Post by David Riley »

I will echo what Mr. Reinstein said. I gave a presentation for KAAC in 2001 and 2002, and was truly impressed at the level of dedication; not just with the staff but with the sheer number of people in attendance.

Even then, several people with whom I spoke asked what we were doing in Illinois re pyramid questions and were genuinely interested in moving in that direction. They did want to keep computation math for the same reasons many of us do, because it's an important part of the high school curriculum, though I'll admit it doesn't often work with pyramid style questions.

I think what many of the KY people were implying above (yes?) is not that change was impossible but would have to happen gradually.
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Re: A Thread About KAAC And Stuff

Post by at your pleasure »

1. The problem is that quizbowl knowledge does not fully correlate with the high school curriculum. For instance, quizbowl gives a good deal of attention to some subjects that are not taught(philosophy, fine arts), and little attention to some subjects that are taught(grammar). Moreover, the set of askable answers is not necessarily what is a basic part of a high school education-most high school students have probably never heard of, say, Charles Martel, but he is considered a prefectly appropriate tossup answer.
2. Computational(not theoretical, which is generally agreed to be a legitimate subdistribution of science), is problematic not because of an anti-math bias, but because it often distinguishes who can do mental math fastest, not necesarily who knows more about the subject of the qestion. For example, a question about the derivation and uses of the quadratic formula is probably better for distiguishing teams with more knowledge about that aspect of algebra than a question asking to use it( a peice of knowledge about the quadratic formula that should be very common knowledge for high school math students).
That conculudes my regugitated anti-MATHCOMP rant.
3. Could people please stop slamming "elite teams"?
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Re: A Thread About KAAC And Stuff

Post by quantumtheory »

Lime, Self and Society wrote:A few years ago, I had a conversation with some of the people running KAAC and exchanged some emails with them. I was pretty impressed by their level of commitment and their understanding. They may be behind the curve now in terms of format and question quality, but I would bet that things will get better. KAAC is having a big meeting in Louisville this weekend, and it's probably a good opportunity to talk to them. Demanding that big changes be made this year won't accomplish much, but talking to them respectfully about the state of the game and how it could be better probably will.

To the best of my knowledge, Kentucky has the highest participation rate in quizbowl of any state in the country. If they changed to a format that resembles NAQT, they would still have a huge number of teams. Furthermore, KAAC is not run by a bunch of football coaches who think that anything that works for sports should apply to quizbowl. It is run by people who are organized and care about the consequences of their actions. They have been slow to make changes to the game, but I think some Kentucky coaches telling them that question quality is a front-burner issue could change that. Additionally, unlike several other states, my sense is that KAAC would take input from other states (or PACE) seriously if it was written in an adult-to-adult tone. As with any big organization, you won't get everything you want right away, but real improvement is a real possibility.
The KAAC is a great organization and most are probably not aware that our program starts in elementary school. We have 3 levels of competition, elementary, middle, and high school. To make a drastic change in the style of questions at the high school level would not be good for us at this point. We are working on the quality of QR questions but we are still not close to pyramidal style questions.
One reason we have a large membership is our committment to keep our competition curriculum aligned with the Kentucky's core content for assessment. Currently Kentucky administers and assesses state tests in reading, math, science, social studies, arts/humanities and practical living/vocational studies. English is assessed at the state level using writing portfolios and on demand writing. We want to keep the two curricula matched up as it is a selling point to school districts.
It is very difficult to compare the two "programs", Quizbowl and the KAAC. I think both entities have different goals and that is fine.
I do appreciate the postive comments about the KAAC made by several posters in this thread.

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Re: A Thread About KAAC And Stuff

Post by Captain Sinico »

I appreciate that post; it's good to hear from a sensible state organization. I'd like to make the point that you can greatly improve the extent to which your QR game rewards deeper knowledge by making the questions pyramidal without necessarily changing their subject matter, so that you get a more educationally rewarding game without losing the tie to curriculum that you find so useful. For example, Illinois has been pretty successful at doing that.

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Re: A Thread About KAAC And Stuff

Post by vcuEvan »

It makes sense that you want to tie the content of Governor's Cup to curriculum, but Quick Recall seems to be 1/8 of the competition. Are schools deeply concerned that the curriculum is reflected in each part of the competition? Do they care about the quiz bowl portion alone? There's no math in the Language Arts subject test.
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Re: A Thread About KAAC And Stuff

Post by cvdwightw »

I think there's two diametrically opposite positions one can take about this, and that either one is valid.

1. "Quick Recall" is a valuable part of the Governor's Cup competition, but it is no more important than any other part of the competition and it is not important for any other reason. While it shares some similarities with quizbowl in that there are teams buzzing on questions, it is a quizbowl-like activity but not actually quizbowl.

2. "Quick Recall" is a valuable part of the Governor's Cup competition, and in addition is important as a measure of how much students know about the subjects in the educational curriculum. Therefore, we should incorporate pyramidal questions to differentiate between a team that knows more about a subject and a team that knows less, rather than using quick recall questions that test whether either team knows a specific fact about a subject. This competition would be more accurately titled "Quizbowl" or "Quiz Bowl" rather than "Quick Recall".

One way to solve the "sudden length change problem" is as follows: begin in elementary school with relatively short, 1-2 line questions that introduce the concept of pyramidality. Instead of asking something like "Who was the sixteenth president of the United States?" (forgive me, I don't know the actual length/style of this competition), you might ask "Before he could implement his plans for Reconstruction, he was shot at Ford's Theater by John Wilkes Booth. Name this president during the Civil War." In middle school, this is increased to 3-4 line questions, and in high school 4-6 line questions. While there's jump at each level, all of the questions still retain some sense of pyramidality, and there's a much smaller jump at each transition rather than one big jump at the end. Keep in mind that there is nothing wrong with short, one-line bonuses or bonus parts.
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