The Quizbowl Resource Center

Posted: **Sun Aug 17, 2008 12:23 am**

Charter School of Wilmington has earned the top spot in our poll with 265 points out of a possible 275 and four first place nods out of 11. Second went to Dorman, who finished with 263 points and six first place votes. The remaining first place vote went to Walt Whitman. A total of 46 teams from 42 schools received votes.

Complete results (all teams are A-teams unless otherwise indicated):

1. Charter, 265
2. Dorman, 263
3. Hunter, 247
4. Thomas Jefferson, 233
5. Walter Johnson, 215

6. Gonzaga, 204
7. Maggie Walker, 199
8. State College, 180
9. Richard Montgomery, 176
10. Detroit Catholic Central, 166

11. Georgetown Day, 158
12. Chaska, 124
13. Bergen County, 112
14. Rockford Auburn, 106
15. Brookwood, 105

16. New Trier, 91
17. Stow Munroe Falls, 87
18. Grosse Pointe North, 85
19. Walt Whitman, 72
20. Rancho Bernardo, 71

21. Kellenberg, 55
22. James Island, 46
23. Detroit County Day, 41
24. Chattahoochee, 40
25. Eden Prairie, 27

Also receiving votes: Walton, 23; Dunbar, 18; Arcadia, 16; Minneapolis South, 16; Maggie Walker B, 15; Minnetonka, 15; Ransom Evergaldes, 15; State College B, 13; Ottawa Hills, 13; Santa Monica, 12; Stuyvesant, 11; Carbondale, 7; LASA, 7; North Kansas City, 5; Thomas Jefferson B, 5; Shady Side, 4; Dorman B, 4; Solon, 4; Eureka (MO), 2; St. Joseph's (IN), 1; MLK Magnet, 1

Posted: **Sun Aug 17, 2008 12:32 am**

Will you be releasing individual ballots?

Posted: **Sun Aug 17, 2008 12:34 am**

In time, yes.

Posted: **Sun Aug 17, 2008 12:58 am**

Sir Frederick Frollick wrote: 19. Walt Whitman, 72

I really see no possible justification for that ranking.

Posted: **Sun Aug 17, 2008 1:14 am**

Unless someone mistakenly

a) thought people had not graduated

or

b) thought this was a Post Nationals Poll

Edit: I will say that I disagee with GDS being that low since they return almost 100 ppg and a combined 38 powers, while Dorman A returns 32 powers and about 100 ppg (looking at only HSNCT stats; also, not picking on Dorman except its number two and GDS is number 11).

Posted: **Sun Aug 17, 2008 1:19 am**

Doesn't Dorman return a whole team that took 4th at NAQT?

Posted: **Sun Aug 17, 2008 1:25 am**

Thomas wrote:Doesn't Dorman return a whole team that took 4th at NAQT?

Right, I am just going by stats as I said. I still think GDS should be in top 10, but not as high as Dorman.

Posted: **Sun Aug 17, 2008 9:32 am**

ragnarok2012 wrote:Unless someone mistakenly

a) thought people had not graduated

or

b) thought this was a Post Nationals Poll

Edit: I will say that I disagee with GDS being that low since they return almost 100 ppg and a combined 38 powers, while Dorman A returns 32 powers and about 100 ppg (looking at only HSNCT stats; also, not picking on Dorman except its number two and GDS is number 11).

These stats matter not. I alone had 27(?) powers and that didn't get my team any higher than Dorman B. As its been said before, games are won on 10s, not 15s.

Posted: **Sun Aug 17, 2008 11:40 am**

I don't see how arcadia is up there, but TP isn't.

Posted: **Sun Aug 17, 2008 12:21 pm**

ClemsonQB wrote:
These stats matter not. I alone had 27(?) powers and that didn't get my team any higher than Dorman B. As its been said before, games are won on 10s, not 15s.

I see your point and I also say that bonus conversion is huge. But to your point, Dorman B had 75 normal tossups (10s) and GDS had 86 normal Tossups.

Posted: **Sun Aug 17, 2008 12:30 pm**

ragnarok2012 wrote:Unless someone mistakenly

a) thought people had not graduated

or

b) thought this was a Post Nationals Poll

I think the fact that Whitman got a first-place vote strongly suggests that someone was definitely mistaken (probably option b is more likely).

Posted: **Sun Aug 17, 2008 1:36 pm**

I think I voted Whitman 20th or so, the knee-jerk rationale being that Daniel and Doug have a close to zero overlap on knowledge and that Whitman finished in the top 20 at 2006 NAQT while conceding virtually every single science question to the other team. More in-depth analysis would probably put them at maybe 30th or so--there are just too many serious knowledge gaps to put them any higher.

The poll's top five:

1. Charter - I think they're favorites to win NAQT, and a victory at PACE isn't unlikely either, as Henry continues to augment his NAQT dominance with more academic depth.

2. Dorman - They return the entire extremely solid NAQT 4th-place team, so they have a great shot there. The loss of George's depth of history knowledge probably will hurt them most at PACE. Whoever replaces him needs to step up big time.

3. Hunter - Guy's teammates just keep getting improving. They might have an outside shot at NAQT, but their real strength will be at PACE.

4. Thomas Jefferson - In a situation somewhat similar to Dorman's. They return Naren, who is probably the best science player in the country. At the same time, the struggle to replace Phil will hurt--more so at PACE than NAQT.

5. Walter Johnson - I don't think Daichi could play for a school with a better name. The question now is (I know at least Guy will appreciate this): "Is 2009 Daichi's 1924?" It's possible. He did lead his team to within one tossup of Dorman at PACE, and that was a couple of months after winning a lit singles tournament in his second language.

Posted: **Sun Aug 17, 2008 2:01 pm**

My reasoning to put Whitman around 20th on my ballot was the fact Daniel was able to get 40 ppg at pace on a team with Adam and Shantanu, which is something quite impressive, and knowledge that their B team had some good finishes at stuff too.

Posted: **Sun Aug 17, 2008 3:18 pm**

I had Whitman at 22 because of pretty much the same reason as Charlie. Based on last year's stats, the poll may actually be an underrating, because we really can't tell how much Shantanu was covering his returning teammates (although based on his reaction in this thread, his teammates may not be that good). We'll have to wait and see.

Posted: **Sun Aug 17, 2008 4:03 pm**

Individual ballots. Teams are listed in order of first to 25th.

Brother Nigel wrote:Dorman
Charter
State College
Hunter
Georgetown Day
Thomas Jefferson
Gonzaga
Richard Montgomery
Maggie Walker
Detroit Catholic Central
Walter Johnson
Walt Whitman
Rancho Bernardo
Chaska
Stow Munroe Falls
Brookwood
Detroit County Day
New Trier
Minnetonka
Chattahoochee
Kellenberg
Grosse Pointe North
Eden Prairie
Bergen County
Ransom Everglades

Zach Foster wrote:Walt Whitman
Thomas Jefferson
Dorman
Charter
Hunter
Richard Montgomery
Walter Johnson
Maggie Walker
Bergen County
Gonzaga
State College
Detroit County Day
Dunbar
New Trier
Chaska
Stow Munroe Falls
Grosse Pointe North
Kellenberg
Rockford Auburn
Detroit Catholic Central
Georgetown Day
Solon
Ransom Everglades
James Island
Walton

Ian Eppler wrote:Dorman
Charter
Hunter
Thomas Jefferson
Walter Johnson
State College
Gonzaga
Georgetown Day
Maggie Walker
Richard Montgomery
Stow Munroe Falls
Chaska
Brookwood
Detroit Catholic Central
Bergen County
Rockford Auburn
Rancho Bernardo
Grosse Pointe North
State College B
Kellenberg
New Trier
Maggie Walker B
Minnetonka
Arcadia
Minneapolis South

William Horton wrote:Charter
Dorman
Hunter
Gonzaga
Walter Johnson
Georgetown Day
Brookwood
Detroit Catholic Central
Thomas Jefferson
Richard Montgomery
State College
Maggie Walker
Kellenberg
Rockford Auburn
Stuyvesant
Stow Munroe Falls
Bergen County
New Trier
James Island
Chattahoochee
Grosse Pointe North
Walt Whitman
Walton
Rancho Bernardo
Eden Prairie

Posted: **Sun Aug 17, 2008 4:05 pm**

Continuing...

George Stevens wrote: Dorman
Thomas Jefferson
Charter
Walter Johnson
Gonzaga
Hunter
Maggie Walker
Detroit Catholic Central
Rockford Auburn
Bergen County
State College
Richard Montgomery
Chaska
Rancho Bernardo
Grosse Pointe North
Eden Prairie
Santa Monica
Kellenberg
LASA
Brookwood
Stow Munroe Falls
Dorman B
Dunbar
James Island
Walton

Adam Marshall wrote:Charter
Maggie Walker
Hunter
Walter Johnson
Detroit Catholic Central
Thomas Jefferson
Dorman
Rancho Bernardo
Bergen County
Richard Montgomery
Rockford Auburn
Gonzaga
Brookwood
Grosse Pointe North
State College
New Trier
Chaska
James Island
Walton
Arcadia
Walt Whitman
Georgetown Day
Eden Prairie
Stow Munroe Falls
Ransom Everglades

Bryce Durgin wrote:Dorman
Charter
Hunter
Thomas Jefferson
Georgetown Day
Gonzaga
Grosse Pointe North
State College
Walter Johnson
Maggie Walker
Chaska
Detroit County Day
New Trier
Stow Munroe Falls
Detroit Catholic Central
Rockford Auburn
Rancho Bernardo
Richard Montgomery
James Island
State College B
Thomas Jefferson B
Shady Side
Eden Prairie
Chattahoochee
St. Joseph's (IN)

Charlie Dees wrote:Charter
Hunter
Dorman
Walter Johnson
State College
Maggie Walker
Richard Montgomery
Thomas Jefferson
Detroit Catholic Central
Gonzaga
Georgetown Day
Bergen County
Brookwood
Rockford Auburn
Chaska
Ransom Everglades
New Trier
Rancho Bernardo
Carbondale
Walt Whitman
North Kansas City
Stow Munroe Falls
Chattahoochee
Eureka
Eden Prairie

Posted: **Sun Aug 17, 2008 4:06 pm**

Aaron Cohen wrote:Dorman
Charter
Thomas Jefferson
Hunter
Richard Montgomery
Gonzaga
Walter Johnson
Georgetown Day
Maggie Walker
Chaska
Bergen County
State College
New Trier
Grosse Pointe North
Rockford Auburn
Detroit Catholic Central
Kellenberg
Chattahoochee
James Island
Brookwood
Minnetonka
Detroit County Day
Eden Prairie
Arcadia
Stow Munroe Falls

Sarah Angelo wrote:Charter
Dorman
Hunter
Thomas Jefferson
Brookwood
Detroit Catholic Central
Maggie Walker
Walter Johnson
Gonzaga
Richard Montgomery
Chattahoochee
Georgetown Day
James Island
State College
Maggie Walker B
Walt Whitman
Chaska
Minneapolis South
Rockford Auburn
Kellenberg
Grosse Pointe North
New Trier
Santa Monica
Stow Munroe Falls
Bergen County

Fred Morlan wrote:Dorman
Charter
Hunter
Georgetown Day
Thomas Jefferson
Gonzaga
Walter Johnson
Maggie Walker
Detroit Catholic Central
State College
Stow Munroe Falls
Chaska
Ottawa Hills
Richard Montgomery
Walton
Bergen County
New Trier
Walt Whitman
Minneapolis South
Arcadia
Rockford Auburn
Brookwood
Eden Prairie
Dunbar
Martin Luther King Magnet

Posted: **Sun Aug 17, 2008 7:21 pm**

I forgot I put Gov that high. Follow-up prediction: I will either look foolish or brilliant by the end of the season.

Posted: **Sun Aug 17, 2008 7:41 pm**

Stat Boy wrote:I forgot I put Dorman that low. Follow-up prediction: I will look foolish by the end of the season.

Fixed.

Posted: **Sun Aug 17, 2008 8:54 pm**

I love Adam Marshall. Even if it was a mistake

Posted: **Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:23 pm**

I had Whitman at 22 because of pretty much the same reason as Charlie. Based on last year's stats, the poll may actually be an underrating, because we really can't tell how much Shantanu was covering his returning teammates (although based on his reaction in this thread, his teammates may not be that good). We'll have to wait and see.

The only A-teamer we will be returning is Daniel. So we're down to our B team, and we will be need to focus on recruitment, or else we will be a two-man team two years from now.
EDIT: assuming the incoming freshman who is interested sticks with it.

Posted: **Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:26 pm**

I had Whitman at 22 because of pretty much the same reason as Charlie. Based on last year's stats, the poll may actually be an underrating, because we really can't tell how much Shantanu was covering his returning teammates (although based on his reaction in this thread, his teammates may not be that good). We'll have to wait and see.

The only A-teamer we will be returning is Daniel. So we're down to our B team, and we will be need to focus on recruitment. Badly.
EDIT: This double post is accidental.

Posted: **Sun Aug 17, 2008 11:32 pm**

I would have made a poll had I remembered who was graduating/returning, but here goes my analysis:

There aren't really any glaring errors that I can see, save for Zach voting Whitman first (what the heck is that). I kinda think picking Charter over Dorman may be incorrect, but it's close. Overall, this seems to be a good poll.

Posted: **Mon Aug 18, 2008 12:35 am**

I didn't realize I put Whitman at #1 my intention was to put them around #20.I actually meant to put Hunter at #1

Posted: **Mon Aug 18, 2008 7:21 am**

Hey Zach, feel free to hit me with a revised order on your ballot.

Posted: **Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:06 pm**

I think this could be the year of teams with one really good player doing well. The top teams (with the exception of Dorman) all seem to have an overpoweringly good player and a solid supporting cast, as opposed to 4 above average players (correct me if I'm wrong). Hunter has Guy, WJ has Daichi, Charter has Henry, etc. I'm not sure what this means when compared to last year where teams like Dorman and TJ, who seemed to be more balanced, were more successful.

As a side note, next time I see Bryce Durgin, I'm giving him a hug. Thank you for deeming us worthy of the 21st spot in your poll. I'm not sure I deem us that worthy, because we will get like 5 science questions right all season. Do you have any logic behind it?

Posted: **Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:37 pm**

la2pgh wrote:I think this could be the year of teams with one really good player doing well. The top teams (with the exception of Dorman) all seem to have an overpoweringly good player and a solid supporting cast, as opposed to 4 above average players (correct me if I'm wrong). Hunter has Guy, WJ has Daichi, Charter has Henry, etc. I'm not sure what this means when compared to last year where teams like Dorman and TJ, who seemed to be more balanced, were more successful.

I don't know if I completely agree. Quiz bowl has always had great one to two-person teams doing well. I don't think this year is any different from any other except for the growth of the circuit's interconnectedness to give the solid supporting casts a chance to improve and support those great stars. To push for PACE (not speaking for us), we have seen some outstanding star-led teams do well and even had them advance far into the playoffs, but the gauntlet of nationals really rewards teams that can weather the individual ups-and-downs of having a star-team play another. The ultimate development of supporting cast I think has become even more important.

Posted: **Tue Aug 19, 2008 8:39 am**

Even though Charter is ranked first, it does appear that if the Condorcet Criterion were applied, Dorman would be number one. (Arrow's Impossibility Theorem, anyone?) Eric and I had an interest in having our teams play as often as possible this year, so hopefully you'll have some good data to base your voting on in the coming months.

Here's what I think Charter A will look like:

Henry. 'nuff said.

Neeraj is no slouch. I watched this boy power lit because he's read a lot. And don't make the mistake of teams of the last three years and hope for a sports question, because I've watched him put those away too. Probably responsible for our reputation as a "trash team".

David Huang is probably our replacement for Raja. The best science player I've had in my six years at Charter: has done well with some of the college packets I read to him. David's best moment last year was beating Moravian and scoring 105 tossup points in the process.

The fourth spot is still in negotiation. I'm looking for someone like Byron, who had amazingly quirky knowledge not duplicated in the other three.

Posted: **Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:18 am**

Bad Boy Bill wrote:Eric and I had an interest in having our teams play as often as possible this year, so hopefully you'll have some good data to base your voting on in the coming months.

I'd like to get in on this, but I'm not sure how much cash we'll get from the school (if it's pittance, I'll be quite annoyed). Let me know where these plan on happening, and I'll try to schedule accordingly, I guess.

Posted: **Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:21 am**

I'm with Guy - TJ would like in on this, too. The funny thing is that no planning is usually required for all of our teams to play each other; in the past we've just ended up playing at all the same tournaments for the most part.

Posted: **Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:20 pm**

Though admittedly not updated yet, you can get an idea what we're up to by looking here:

http://www.charterschool.org/clubs/acad ... /sched.php

At this point, my first guess is:

- Moravian on 9/27 (may not be appropriate for the A team to be there, depending on field)
- TJ on 10/18

I am willing to show at UVa on 10/25 if the interested parties will also be in attendance.

And since we're in the middle of TJ and Hunter, if you want some question set hosted the for three of us, U Delaware can probably oblige.

ADDENDUM: We also have interest in going to Harvard, just have to figure out the transportation.

Posted: **Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:42 pm**

Bad Boy Bill wrote:And since we're in the middle of TJ and Hunter, if you want some question set hosted the for three of us, U Delaware can probably oblige.

Don't forget Penn's house-written likely on 11/22. It is probably just as close as Delaware for you three plus others in nearby states.

Posted: **Tue Aug 19, 2008 2:35 pm**

If people are interested on Friday night before HFT I would be happy to run a scrimmage for a few teams. We could run a small mini tournament.

Posted: **Tue Aug 19, 2008 2:52 pm**

Magister Ludi wrote:If people are interested on Friday night before HFT I would be happy to run a scrimmage for a few teams. We run a small mini tournament.

I am intrigued. What would this be?

Also, I think that this year we won't be going to TJ fall, as it doesn't make much sense for us to travel for NAQT tournaments when we have (presumably) limited funds and many other tournaments which I find worth travelling to. This is exasperated by the fact that we'll probably be sending two teams to a bunch of tournaments.

In any case, something around the Temple region would be good again—it's pretty well-situated between the two regions and cheap to get to. But something that requires staying the night for would have to be worthwhile, IMO.

Posted: **Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:01 pm**

Bad Boy Bill wrote:- Moravian on 9/27 (may not be appropriate for the A team to be there, depending on field)

Well If you're both using IS-78A as you both indicated (Delaware Fall Open Dec. 13th), then obviously not.

Posted: **Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:17 pm**

Although a set in common might reduce my field some, this would be OK because my students would play at Moravian and then moderate at Charter.

Posted: **Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:51 pm**

Ah, that's right. Okie.

It's doubly unfortunate because we were looking forward to the drive to Bethlehem... but obviously we're not going to snub you guys, so don't worry, we'll still be coming on 12-13 and we'll skip the Moravian tourney.

Posted: **Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:19 am**

Funn-Dimensional Man wrote:
Magister Ludi wrote:If people are interested on Friday night before HFT I would be happy to run a scrimmage for a few teams. We run a small mini tournament.
I am intrigued. What would this be?

This is the first I've heard of this. I'm willing to run / in the middle of writing a side tournament (probably of about seven rounds-ish) on the twentieth century, in lit/"history"/trash, which may or may not actually be enjoyable. I'd also have a lot of fun writing some packets for you guys.

Posted: **Wed Aug 20, 2008 9:38 am**

everyday847 wrote: side tournament on the twentieth century

I would be very interested in playing this.

Posted: **Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:01 pm**

Hopper wrote:I would be very interested in playing this.

Posted: **Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:58 pm**

Excellent! / dangbettergetwritingthen

Posted: **Wed Aug 20, 2008 3:23 pm**

Brindlee Mountain's goal this year:

To be on the "also receiving votes" list by the end of the season.

Posted: **Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:05 pm**

I am stilll in awe that our school (Detroit Country Day School) was in the Top 25 some how.

Are there any reasons why we were on the list? I don't see how we deserve that.

Posted: **Sun Sep 14, 2008 5:20 pm**

Any particular reason for a #3 State College, Brother Nigel? Much as I love to hear it, I'm not sure we're at that point yet.

Posted: **Sat Oct 18, 2008 2:00 pm**

I've wanted to post this for quite some time, but the events of today have made it imperative:

Dorman
Thomas Jefferson
Charter
Walter Johnson
Gonzaga
Hunter
Maggie Walker
Detroit Catholic Central
Rockford Auburn
Bergen County
State College
Richard Montgomery
Chaska
Rancho Bernardo
Grosse Pointe North
Eden Prairie
Santa Monica
Kellenberg
LASA
Brookwood
Stow Munroe Falls
Dorman B
Dunbar
James Island
Walton

That was my prognosis of the national poll some months ago; now, commentary:

I, like many others who participated in this poll, immensely overestimated several teams while others were certainly underrated.

Charter: They’ve proved that they can get it done on both NAQT and knowledge based questions like HSAPQ, so I move them up to number one. I haven’t seen them play this year, but their stats support this.

Walter Johnson: After watching him play at Wake Forest, I can say that Daichi is a beast, and is deserving of my ranking above both Gonzaga and Hunter.

I would definitely put Hunter over Gonzaga now after seeing the stats from EFT.

I underestimated Ike, he really impressed me with his stats from EFT, although I didn’t see him play.

Maybe Bergen was missing some players at LIFT today, but if not, I believe I overestimated them.

I really underestimated Daniel and co. at Walt Whitman (they weren’t even in my top 25), they have had some good showings in the DC region this year.

It looks as if TJ may have been overrated by both me and others in this poll, but it is still very early in the season.

Finally, the team I initially put at number one in my poll, Dorman:

EDIT: So, earlier today I feared for the worst, but it appears they may have turned it around and actually finished in the top two (maybe even won), so congrats. My earlier post seems sort of foolish now, but the gist of it was that this team needs to prepare itself better.

Posted: **Sat Oct 18, 2008 7:35 pm**

Bergen indeed lacked Watson.

Posted: **Sat Oct 18, 2008 7:51 pm**

Also, it appears that I may have underestimated Dunbar as well, congrats on the finish today!

Posted: **Sat Oct 18, 2008 11:54 pm**

ClemsonQB wrote:I've wanted to post this for quite some time, but the events of today have made it imperative:

Dorman
Thomas Jefferson
Charter
Walter Johnson
Gonzaga
Hunter
Maggie Walker
Detroit Catholic Central
Rockford Auburn
Bergen County
State College
Richard Montgomery
Chaska
Rancho Bernardo
Grosse Pointe North
Eden Prairie
Santa Monica
Kellenberg
LASA
Brookwood
Stow Munroe Falls
Dorman B
Dunbar
James Island
Walton

Given that you didn't put Georgetown Day in your Top 25, I would say you underestimated them as well.

Posted: **Sat Oct 18, 2008 11:59 pm**

This may be true.

Posted: **Sun Oct 19, 2008 10:55 am**

I'm a little curious as to your placement of Gonzaga; while they are a quality team, I would certainly not place them on a level with Hunter, WJ, and Charter

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