Illinois '08-'09

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Charley Pride
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Charley Pride »

Thanks, David. Some more priceless info:

Zahed's 6-Step Method to Becoming an Illinois Scholastic Bowl Ace

1. Be fast on the buzzer and learn to recall info at lightning speed.
2. Know plenty of detailed science knowledge, including physics, chemistry, biology, and earth science
3. Study Brit lit, American lit, and world lit, along with paintings, plays, and musical compositions.
4. Master calculus, algebra, trigonometry, geometry, and important mathematicians.
5. Know your presidents, monarchs, conflicts, treaties, atlas, cultures, and anything important in social studies.
6. Follow sports teams, celebrities, business news, and read the newspaper every day. Watch every movie and TV show, listen to every song. Pay attention in drivers' ed.

Follow these six easy steps and you'll be on your way to being the best scholastic bowler in the world.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Charley Pride »

Page 3!
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Kanga-Rat Murder Society »

Zahed:

You forgot to mention living on a farm for a week to learn "industrial arts".
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by David Riley »

And #1 in your list only works 100% of the time with well-written, non-hose questioins.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) »

Have fun not being able to get Religion, Mythology, Philosophy, or Social Sciences like anthropology and economics.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by AKKOLADE »

Aub-ZH wrote:Zahed's 6-Step Method to Becoming an Illinois Scholastic Bowl Ace
Everything I've read in these threads seems to indicate that the way to accomplish this is just one step: stop playing Scholastic Bowl.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Siverus Snape »

Deesy Does It wrote:Have fun not being able to get Religion, Mythology, Philosophy, or Social Sciences like anthropology and economics.
Note that Zahed emphasized the "Illinois". The math distribution cripples those categories you mentioned. Religion and mythology get shoved into World Literature, and the "hard" (as opposed to "soft") social sciences get buried in the vague Social Studies category.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by BGSO »

I think Driver's ed and industrial arts should be given their own step, make it a 7-step process,
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by JackGlerum »

leftsaidfred wrote:
Aub-ZH wrote:Zahed's 6-Step Method to Becoming an Illinois Scholastic Bowl Ace
Everything I've read in these threads seems to indicate that the way to accomplish this is just one step: stop playing Scholastic Bowl.
I'm not going to to on and on about this, but why why why why does every non-Illinois person on these boards rip on our format/state? I know that:

-our bonuses are "wrong"
-some of IHSA's rules are ridiculous
-there are some horrible question writers in our state ("Name one of the two indefinite articles" at Kaneland last year)
-math isn't "academic"
-the presence of math distorts every other category (Siva's post)
-other than the math heavy PAC, Illinois gets owned at national tournaments (so we can't efficiently talk back to MD, VA, NY, etc teams)

but honestly, I know it's bad. We try to change it, but we usually end up just having to deal with it. Ask anybody in Illinois, my team would benefit the most from getting rid of the format, Loyola is notoriously bad at math. I'm just saying it gets monotonous being reminded all the time.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Sir Thopas »

1) The more you hear about it and get annoyed about it, the more likely you are to push for change, because you're (obviously) fed up with hearing about it.
2) If the top teams stopped playing ScoBowl for a better format en masse, it would be crippled. I don't see why something like this hasn't been arranged yet.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) »

Guy, you're speaking from inexperience here. They have to deal with a state organization controlling all of these problems, and simple lobbying for change hardly works for these organizations. To everyone who doesn't have an IHSA or MSHSAA or other type of governing organization that puts lots of restrictions and funny rules in place breathing down their neck, stop acting to us like it will just take some anger and a flick of a wrist to magically make these things change.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Sir Thopas »

Deesy Does It wrote:Guy, you're speaking from inexperience here. They have to deal with a state organization controlling all of these problems, and simple lobbying for change hardly works for these organizations. To everyone who doesn't have an IHSA or MSHSAA or other type of governing organization that puts lots of restrictions and funny rules in place breathing down their neck, stop acting to us like it will just take some anger and a flick of a wrist to magically make these things change.
Fair enough.

Maybe what Illinois needs is more in-game Dees-like throwdowns.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Siverus Snape »

Change is slowly happening. I don't know about computational math ever disappearing, but the Kickoff tournament run by the coaches' association (NOT the IHSA) will be run in mACF bonus format as somewhat of an experiment to test the southern portion of the state. The teams that seek to go beyond IHSA format have plenty of options in front of them, especially this year. There are at least decent quality non-IHSA format tournaments (meaning NAQT or house-written) at U of I, Wash U, Northwestern, Rock Valley College, and other places I can't think of right now--and the good teams are increasingly taking advantage of those opportunities. A few other tournaments are keeping the basic Illinois distribution but switching to mACF bonuses, which is a more important and more reasonable change at this time. The tournaments we plan to run this year will see a small decrease in the math distribution, weighting it above fine arts and miscellaneous but below literature and the like. Dramatic displays won't help our condition very much at all, but I am optimistic about the eventual future, especially if we can continue to increase our state's attendance at national tournaments and run more of our own good tournaments as well.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by vcuEvan »

If Illinois teams really want to be competitive nationally their best bet is to focus on real questions and just do the crappy stuff when forced to. I'd wager this would actually make teams better at crappy formats as well.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Stained Diviner »

A note to the students of Illinois from a crusty old man.

In a post at the end of the last Illinois thread, BGSO listed these tournaments as good:
UIUC earlybird
Northwester NAqT
NT solo
Wn kickoff
Carmel
New Trier Varsity
Fremd
Masonic
NAQT state
IHSA tournament
HSNCT

Most of those are, in fact, good, or at least decent. Add to that the fact that Auburn is thinking of adding a very good mirror or two, New Trier is also considering it, Wash U hosts a tournament basically on our state line, Culver hosts some good tournaments a few hours away, and Brad is trying to recruit more elite teams for The Decemberist. There are plenty of incentives to get good, and there are plenty of opportunities to play on good questions against good teams. The competition here is not as good as it is in the DC area, but you're only allowed to complain about the level of competition if you are too good for it.

It is possible that there were no teams from Illinois last year that were in the top twenty nationally, but some (especially RA and WN) were in the neighborhood, one team was that good the year before, and there is no reason that this coming year teams from Illinois cannot be among the best teams anywhere. You have a brain, an internet connection, free libraries, coaches, and tournaments. If you want to get better, learn stuff. I know that Illinois Scholastic Bowl has its faults, but if you continue to complain I will be forced to tell you stories about the old days when things really were terrible and there was nothing you could do about it.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Stained Diviner »

I'd wager this would actually make teams better at crappy formats as well.
The 2007 State Masonic Final, which was in a tournament including some of the worst questions I've heard in years, featured a close match between Maine South and New Trier, two teams that focused all year long on practicing and playing good questions.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Maxwell Sniffingwell »

Exactly. There's no way to study for bad questions - all you can do is study for real questions. That New Trier-Maine South match was surprising not in that it was a good match, but in that those two teams managed to get there at all. Once we got there, it became a combination of luck (about half of the bonuses were easy 20/20s, both teams hoping to avoid the hoses) and skill (what with the questions still being about, y'know, knowing things about stuff.)

Once you make sure that your team can do math, the best way to get better for IL format is to get better at quizbowl. Period.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by AKKOLADE »

JohnGlerum wrote:
I'm not going to to on and on about this, but why why why why does every non-Illinois person on these boards rip on our format/state? I know that:

-our bonuses are "wrong"
-some of IHSA's rules are ridiculous
-there are some horrible question writers in our state ("Name one of the two indefinite articles" at Kaneland last year)
-math isn't "academic"
-the presence of math distorts every other category (Siva's post)
-other than the math heavy PAC, Illinois gets owned at national tournaments (so we can't efficiently talk back to MD, VA, NY, etc teams)

but honestly, I know it's bad. We try to change it, but we usually end up just having to deal with it. Ask anybody in Illinois, my team would benefit the most from getting rid of the format, Loyola is notoriously bad at math. I'm just saying it gets monotonous being reminded all the time.
Well, get ready to be reminded whenever the subject comes up. Pretty much every single state organization that is ran by non-quiz bowl people and/or entrenched in diplomacy results in bad quiz bowl. Missouri, Florida, Ohio, Illinois... heck, the top two states of this sort are Kentucky and Virginia, and they have their share of flaws.

But every single Illinois thread always contains whining about the format, with a split of 60% posts of discussion/30% hating the format/10% Egan being Egan, but a surprisingly small amount of attempts to change this. Egan or Reinstein or Riley make posts about going to the state board and having their ideas summarily rejected by people with no idea about actual good quiz bowl, and then... virtual nothing. No players or coaches threatening walk outs, minimal support of quality pyramidal questions on a statewide basis, nothing I can recall of people approaching UIUC or Chicago for help, but yet people expect change. This isn't going to happen on its own. You have to make it happen. And until there's more of an concentrated effort to make it happen, have fun with people pointing out these problems, even when we aren't from Illinois.
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Reason: clarifying position
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by BuzzerZen »

ReinsteinD wrote:I know that Illinois Scholastic Bowl has its faults, but if you continue to complain I will be forced to tell you stories about the old days when things really were terrible and there was nothing you could do about it.
I, for one, love stories about terrible quiz bowl. You oughta tell some of these.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by dtaylor4 »

leftsaidfred wrote:But every single Illinois thread always contains whining about the format, with a split of 60% posts of discussion/30% hating the format/10% Egan being Egan, but a surprisingly small amount of attempts to change this. Egan or Reinstein or Riley make posts about going to the state board and having their ideas summarily rejected by people with no idea about actual good quiz bowl, and then... virtual nothing. No players or coaches threatening walk outs, minimal NAQT or PACE support, nothing I can recall of people approaching UIUC or Chicago for help, but yet people expect change. This isn't going to happen on its own. You have to make it happen. And until there's more of an concentrated effort to make it happen, have fun with people pointing out these problems, even when we aren't from Illinois.
I know this is a HS thread, but I'll start by stating my assumption that the IHSA could give two shits about quality quizbowl. OK, teams threaten walkouts. The IHSA could care less. If teams "de-affiliate" themselves with the IHSA, then they lose potential school funding. Given the relatively high amount of expenses that a team would have to incur to travel to all of those quality tournaments, and then possibly two nationals, you'd have to host 2-3 high-turnout tournaments to raise that much.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) »

I know in Missouri if you deaffiliate you will be banned from playing any MSHSAA sanctioned tournaments, which means everything within state lines that has any MSHSAA-member teams attending. If you attend a tournament while not a MSHSAA member, and it doesn't matter what state the tournament is in, your school would risk getting all of its other programs banned from MSHSAA, which means your school has the incentive to make it impossible for you to make and keep money on your own. I'd be surprised if Illinois is very different.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Matt Weiner »

Yeah, once you get into the football-coach quagmire, they make it impossible to get out. The solution is to tell anybody who wants to put quizbowl under the purview of a state athletic association to go to hell. In states where this has already happened, you're pretty much doomed to spend at least 80% of your time on nonsense if you can wedge better tournaments in there at all.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by AKKOLADE »

dtaylor4 wrote:I know this is a HS thread, but I'll start by stating my assumption that the IHSA could give two shits about quality quizbowl. OK, teams threaten walkouts. The IHSA could care less. If teams "de-affiliate" themselves with the IHSA, then they lose potential school funding. Given the relatively high amount of expenses that a team would have to incur to travel to all of those quality tournaments, and then possibly two nationals, you'd have to host 2-3 high-turnout tournaments to raise that much.
Get a newspaper guy on your side. Seriously, imagine the story from a pure "newsiness" view point: Students want more academic questions; state organization rejects them. You just have to think of ways to work around the quagmire you're in.

As for high expenses, my public, non-rich area high school had to travel over an hour to all but two or three tournaments a year. You can finagle financing.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by First Chairman »

leftsaidfred wrote:But every single Illinois thread always contains whining about the format, with a split of 60% posts of discussion/30% hating the format/10% Egan being Egan, but a surprisingly small amount of attempts to change this. Egan or Reinstein or Riley make posts about going to the state board and having their ideas summarily rejected by people with no idea about actual good quiz bowl, and then... virtual nothing. No players or coaches threatening walk outs, minimal NAQT or PACE support, nothing I can recall of people approaching UIUC or Chicago for help, but yet people expect change. This isn't going to happen on its own. You have to make it happen. And until there's more of an concentrated effort to make it happen, have fun with people pointing out these problems, even when we aren't from Illinois.
I do want to make sure to mention: this is hardly a scientific sample of the entire circuit of Illinois. This is the most vociferous group, but it is also a minority of the stakeholders who might want to keep things the way they are for whatever reason. The vocal minority expect change, but if the silent majority is happy as a clam, and given the nuances of IHSA, the effort to change things from within will take more time.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by BGSO »

I think that's the problem there are a ton of schools that are represented in the IHSA, few even have teams that meet on a regular basis and attend tournaments other than state, even fewer know that other states don't have a four part bonus format, and even fewer give a crap about national formats and real question distribution.

The problem is that we have maybe 10 schools form Illinois represented on this forum, with such a small number we really have no way of doing anything to change SchoBowl b/c no one cares about it.

i.e. to put it in perspective at our conferences (MSL) all-star match one teams person who represented them left their specialty as spelling. SPELLING! so few teams in Illinois have ever played quiz bowl. We as a whole are too sheltered in our Scholastic bowl Bubble.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by AKKOLADE »

Do people who hold quality tournaments offer free/cheap registration to these teams and actively try to recruit them?
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by dtaylor4 »

leftsaidfred wrote:Do people who hold quality tournaments offer free/cheap registration to these teams and actively try to recruit them?
The Coaches' Association website has a list of members, their schools, and email addresses. The ABT has been able to get some "new" players/teams to come to our tournaments , but it's been slow.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Charley Pride »

Wow. Who knew my 6-step program would set off such a firestorm.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Stained Diviner »

There are no obstacles to Illinois Scholastic Bowl. There is no reason to leave the IHSA, because the IHSA does not prevent us from doing anything. The only rule is that we have to limit ourselves to at most one five-on-five tournament outside the season, but that's not a big deal because there are no five-on-five tournaments outside the season.

IHSA does include Drivers Ed in its distribution, which results in students hearing about three Drivers Ed tossups per year. It is silly, but unless your IQ drops 20 points every time you hear one of those questions it doesn't really matter.

IHSA includes Math in its distribution at 20%. Is anybody arguing that Illinois teams suffer at HSNCT because they have too much math practice? We have five people on each team, so you find somebody who does math and stick them on the end. Then you work on getting better at the other 80%.

There is a problem of a long history of bad questions, which we are crawling out of. Each year, it gets easier and easier to avoid bad questions. At this point, it's pretty easy.

I think one of the problems Illinois has now is the way most tournaments are set up. If you are an elite team, you probably spend your morning playing four easy matches out of five. It then goes to single elimination, which means there's a decent chance you'll only play one or two good teams in the afternoon. What we need to do is to make sure that every time New Trier, Loyola, Auburn, Carbondale, et al show up at a tournament that they all play each other at least once at some point during the day. That's the way we'll get better.

If anybody wants to make suggestions as to how things could be better, suggestions are always welcome. There are some things I can change, and there are some things I can bring to the attentions of people who can change them. However, just as it is possible for good teams to be a part of VHSL, it is possible for good teams to be a part of IHSA.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by BGSO »

Just one thing that I fell in love with after solo and NT varsity:

Is there any way that the card system could be used at kickoff? I love the concept of playing a team with an equal record of you, especially because it prevents an elite team form dominating a bracket and crushing the other teams in their bracket from having a shot at the wild card.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Matt Weiner »

I think the issue is more that having 20% math, reading the category before the question, and the way you do your bonuses are bad quizbowl, so you should change those things irrespective of whether they prepare you for the HSNCT or not. Luckily, no one in Virginia uses the VHSL format in their own tournament, or has a quizbowl team subject to VHSL strictures for other events (though if other states are any guide, these horrors are coming). In Illinois, you do use the format for most tournaments, which is a problem.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Tegan »

leftsaidfred wrote:10% Egan being Egan
Could I get some clarification on that?
dtaylor4 wrote:but I'll start by stating my assumption that the IHSA could give two shits about quizbowl.
Fixed for accuracy. Seriously, the concern that they have is that enough teams are registered (why, I have no idea, because life for everyone would be immensely helped if about 8 teams from each Class A sectional dropped out and let the Class A people eliminate that dumb preliminary round they are forced to do). The only reason we have better questions today than years past is that we were able to convince the powers that be that it would be cost effective and would keep the complaints to a minimum. Otherwise, procedure is paramount and what is best for the players is not and has never been a priority.

leftsaidfred wrote:Get a newspaper guy on your side. Seriously, imagine the story from a pure "newsiness" view point: Students want more academic questions; state organization rejects them. You just have to think of ways to work around the quagmire you're in.
Followed by the newspaper rants from downstate newspapers: "Chicago suburban elitists seek to eliminate agriculture: considered non-academic". The press finds this activity very unattractive. The Academic Decathlon folks can get all the coverage they want, but that's primarily because it paints the picture of a strong team based on minority kids being able to win state and place at nationals ...... the great underdog story that is hardly the case in reality because they study predetermined material in their AcDec class every day, and even moderately serious students could whomp on that.

Headlines of "Rich White kids from Winnetka/Wilmette/Wheaton/Park Ridge/Palatine, etc whomp in academic competition" is not a story that the press in this area want to pursue. I speak of this from experience. I spent three years every year trying to talk with the press over the state championships and the All-State awards. Ironically, the only press that seemed to care were the downstate folks, and they are really not the people who would be helpful in this endeavor.

We are trying to get around this quagmire .... we've been spending the better part of the last ten years trying to do this. There are certain things that we know will not work:
1. Deaffiliation. Even if a school's admin gave the fullest backing to their team to not play IHSA, the IHSA has the schools by the sack ..... the IHSA constitution basically says that even if you have a team, and you choose not to play the state series, you are still bound to follow the IHSA rules, and failure to do so set up your school to be sanctioned (not the program, the school). No school is going to do that, and yes, you are right, that means when a school joins the IHSA, you are making a deal with the devil ..... each school is surrendering a certain amount of institutional control, which is totally stupid. I think the Catholic schools were foolish to ever join back in the 70s, and for the life of me I don't know what they were offered to join because ever since they joined, they have been kicked around incessantly. Thus Dr. Riley's periodic calls of secession are not even remotely an option for anyone .... at least at this point.

2. The key thus becomes: get the state series to change or get the IHSA's talons out of our programs. The latter is unlikely, though it may be possible to get administrative backing to redraw some of the strings ... it requires getting a principal to put forth an amendment, getting it through the IHSA Board of Control, and then hoping that the state principals vote it in. I did this with my principal to get the whole summer tournament issue cleared up.

3. The state series questions are really the issue: if we could make them more closely parallel the structure/distribution of NAQT or PACE, then the issue would not really be an issue because preparing for Illinois would be preparing for national level competitions. The difference between questions today and ten years ago is night and day better. The issues are:
a. even though trash is greatly minimized in our format (I think even less than NAQT), we still have the problem that "X" % of that trash is beneath trash (driver ed, and bad agriculture, home ec, and industrial arts). we are working on trying to eliminate it, and we came very close this past year. We need to rework the bonus format, which David Reinstein proposed, and came close this year. PACE/NAQT format (with rebounds) will be used in the kickoff tournament this year, and hopefully will catch on. Ideally, there would need to be a letter writing campaign by coaches to the AdCo to get this done.

4. Overall question quality, while closer to NAQT/PACE than what we used to have still have problems. This is due primarily to:
a. We have had a hard time recruiting question writers from the collegiate ranks who know how to write these.
b. We still have question writers who are being used who won't write that format, no matter how gently they are prodded.

If it were up to me, I would politely deep six these folks, but again, we have the problem of who do we get to write? I know that there were some collegiate folks contacted in the past year who backed out, and it necessitated me to write all of the science questions ..... now I don't mind, but at the same point having a month to write all of the chemistry and biology was a pain, and resulted in these questions sucking. I'm not making excuses for the questions I wrote ... I said I would write them, they are my creation, and they sucked. They may have sucked less if I had had more times, and likely wouldn't have sucked if someone else had written them.

Having seen other state formats, I can tell you we are better than many: I know Illinois is far better off than Missouri, Kentucky, and Florida ...... maybe some others. Yes it sucks that we have to put up with people running our activity that don't care about its quality, don't care about the players, care even less about the coaches. I (and others) have to go in every year and make our spiel .... try and get what we can, and try and convince the downstate contingent that their kids heads won't explode if they actually have to expand their learning. Of course the downstate people tend to be a little distrustful because it is very much in their nature to be distrustful.

Case in point: One of the points I tried to bring up about changing our bonus format to ACF/NAQT style (with the retention of rebounds) is that we could suddenly start using a lot more question writing companies ... because companies that write for our format are dying, and that most companies will not write for our "special" format requirement. I noted that Missouri is going on their third writer in three years because they have a "special" format. I said that the day may come when we wake up and find no question writers who will write to our format. The response of the downstate reps was that they had a letter from a "very experienced coach" who found it nonsense, and that Missouri has a "special" format, and that everything is going fine with them. I guess I'm just not very trustworthy, and have no clue what I am talking about. In short: they chose to listen to whom they wanted to listen to: the people who told them what they wanted to hear, rather than the truth.

After that, I realized my mistake was in not inviting Charlie Dees .... I'm not sure he would have convince them, but he would have been able to use language that I wasn't going to use.

5. The only other option would be if a national oversight came into being that would convince the state organization that "this is the way to do things", and create a single format that would over ride the state organizations. This was the point a few years ago, but there was a lot of bridling by the better teams. I understand why: they are afraid that lesser formats would get their hooks into the format and bring the whole national competition down. I understand that concern.

So, we decide to keep moving forward as fast as we can. Its about all we can do.

Wow ... four posts while I was writing this. Matt is right: the bonus format need to change ... it is being worked on. The announcing the category thing ..... that might be an issue, but maybe we could have a rule put in where if both teams don;t want them read, the mod doesn't read them. That way, if two teams interested in improving don't want them read, they don't have to. As for math, it will be a long time before that goes ..... perhaps if the right mix of people gets put into the AdCo, it could be reduced.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Kanga-Rat Murder Society »

leftsaidfred wrote: Get a newspaper guy on your side. Seriously, imagine the story from a pure "newsiness" view point: Students want more academic questions; state organization rejects them. You just have to think of ways to work around the quagmire you're in.

As for high expenses, my public, non-rich area high school had to travel over an hour to all but two or three tournaments a year. You can finagle financing.
This is completely pointless in Illinois as the IHSA cares about their image as much as Mike Tyson cares about his. The newspapers have attacked the IHSA on many issues, most notably the IHSA's monopoly on pictures at their events. While the IHSA looked bad in the press, nothing changed. The IHSA has complete control of events and everyone knows it. They are the bully and I would rather deal with bad questions than lose funding.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Stained Diviner »

IHSA is not forcing you to deal with bad questions.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Matt Weiner »

ReinsteinD wrote:IHSA is not forcing you to deal with bad questions.
Is this a nonsensical "if you don't like it, quit" statement or something more coded?
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Siverus Snape »

Matt Weiner wrote:
ReinsteinD wrote:IHSA is not forcing you to deal with bad questions.
Is this a nonsensical "if you don't like it, quit" statement or something more coded?
My interpretation (well, really, my opinion carefully projected onto Mr. Reinstein) is that the IHSA does not force you to choose one-liner tournaments over Earlybird or Wash U or anything else. We at Auburn played what seemed like our fullest schedule ever, and we didn't play a single tournament with bad questions...until the state series. So really, the IHSA forces us to deal with their often-bad questions in order to win the title that they offer and that has the heft of their name behind it. I like what I see about the way the regular season is shaping up, with more and more tournaments that will better prepare teams for national competition. The state series will require infinitely more patience and time because it directly affects people who put very little effort and very few care points into Scholastic Bowl but fight for it like it's their poor, abused, vulnerable baby.

Edited for a modicum of PC.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by AKKOLADE »

Tegan wrote:
leftsaidfred wrote:10% Egan being Egan
Could I get some clarification on that?
It's just like Manny being Manny, though 100% whiter, more midwesternly, a little more bizarre and less likely to shove old white people over.

Still reading actual posts and stuff.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) »

I feel like pointing out that Dr. Chuck's post a little ways back is absolutely dead on. We can look on and think there is huge discontent in Missouri because I do a lot of angry posting about it, but in reality all that means is I'm a very vocal member of a tiny minority in Missouri. I get the feeling this is the exact same problem on the boards from the Missouri teams. I do agree that people like Fred making these posts really have no clue how to actually deal with this problem (and you know I respect you Fred, so I really mean this), and as much as we want to get on this board and tell people in Illinois their format is wrong, it doesn't actually do much to change it since the Illinois people on this board already know there's a big problem and they are having a helluva time getting things to change. Now, if this were a case where a state had an easy mechanism for change and was truly ignorant of how awful their format is, that would be different.
Also, Mr. Egan, can you gget me contact information for this coach? I would like to send them a polite email explaining that whatever they've heard has been a lie about the situation in Missouri.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by AKKOLADE »

Deesy Does It wrote:I do agree that people like Fred making these posts really have no clue how to actually deal with this problem (and you know I respect you Fred, so I really mean this)
YOU DISRESPECTING ME BOY?~

The point of my post wasn't really to say, "Hey, your format sucks and in my opinion you need to change it," but, "A lot of you complain but are you doing anything about it? Because you should." Of course, I did this in a rushed post so it probably came off in the reverse, but oh well.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Matt Weiner »

Well, you're all correct. It's true that many teams don't care about this stuff. It's true that newspapers and non-quizbowl people in general aren't interested. It's true that you can't just will these problems away. With all that said, that's no reason to stop trying; there have been success stories in the past. My general response to "the bottom 80% of teams don't see the difference in the questions" is "this is a competitive activity. We keep score and give trophies to winners. Of course you need to keep the educational value out there for everyone, but in the end, it's also important that the top teams be able to play off their championships properly."
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by AKKOLADE »

Matt Weiner wrote:My general response to "the bottom 80% of teams don't see the difference in the questions" is "this is a competitive activity. We keep score and give trophies to winners. Of course you need to keep the educational value out there for everyone, but in the end, it's also important that the top teams be able to play off their championships properly."
I also think a more emphasized point regarding this that needs to be made is that a better game improves for everyone. Not only is it more satisfying for the top teams, but it is more satisfying for the bottom teams as it gives them more opportunities to learn things.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Siverus Snape »

Mr. Egan, I remember you saying that the rep from my district was the deciding vote against changing the bonus format. Would you mind providing me with her contact info? My e-mail address is my posting name here on a Gmail account.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Stained Diviner »

Siva's interpretation of what I said is correct. There are good tournaments here, and even if it's a minority that plays them, teams can play them. Buffalo Grove seems interested in seeking out tournaments with good questions, which they should be applauded for, and they can play in several of them without a single plane or hotel reservation if they want to.

If you want to find out who your rep is, look here. Actually, some new appointments were just made, and while I don't know for sure, my sense is that they are for the better. The entire committee now consists of coaches who have had some success.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Charley Pride »

We should storm the IHSA headquarters. You know, talk loudly, insult their families, throw furniture, eat their lunches, that kind of stuff. That'll teach 'em.

Some of you may like buzzer-beating one-liners. Drivers' ed, farming techniques, and the names of kitchen implements may be an essential part of your distribution. Maybe you NEED to hear categories so you know that inertia is a scientific concept. Perhaps IHSA is your kind of benevolent overseer.

But as for me, GIVE ME GOOD SCHOBOWL OR GIVE ME DEATH!
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Siverus Snape »

Aub-ZH wrote:GIVE ME DEATH!
Be careful what you wish for.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Charley Pride »

You wouldn't kill me, Siva.












Right?
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by JackGlerum »

Aub-ZH wrote:You wouldn't kill me, Siva.


Right?
Let's hope this team chemistry carries over when you play us :grin:
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Tegan »

SIVster716 wrote:Mr. Egan, I remember you saying that the rep from my district was the deciding vote against changing the bonus format. Would you mind providing me with her contact info? My e-mail address is my posting name here on a Gmail account.
Coach Cynthia Wierzba is the Region 4 rep. Her e-mail can be found on the IHSSBCA website:

c w i e r z b a 'at' d i s t 2 6 5 'dot' c o m

Siva, here is my advice to you:

1. As I know you will, keep it very >>very<< civil and nice. I say that not so much for you who I know will, but .....

2. It will help if you get more coaches and players in your area to e-mail or write her at Farmington. Same goes for them: make your point, don't be apologetic about it. Make your case. Make it logically. Hearing from one school doesn't sound like much. Hearing from 3 or more schools will help.

Form letters are no good ..... but you may want to ask Coach Greene to write on, and ask her to encourage your teammates to all write. If you know people on other teams from ACE Camp, have them write to their own rep (Carbondale folks would be good here).

3. One last thing: I wouldn't do this now. I would wait until after the State Finals. Let the season sink in, and then get those letters going.

As the north suburban rep, I can only hope that I have many e-mails/letters from students/coaches in my area to help lend a note of support.

I think that coming from former players in college would be helpful ..... perhaps even most especially if said players were not the vunderkid stud(ette)s in high school ..... people who can prove that this format is not just a good idea to keep elite teams in power ..... it is a good idea .... period. Hearing from people who can demonstrate they are invested in helping scholastic bowl at the state level (read: people who cannot be easily dismissed as not knowing what they talk about or dismissed for not caring, or for only having personal interested at heart).

Siva ..... lets all try and remind each other that when mid-March rolls around that we need to get on people to do this.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by First Chairman »

Reinstein and Egan (the "other" Dave and Tom :wink: ) know better about what causes things to change within IHSA or IHSSBCA (if I got that acronym correct). But one thing is for sure: institutional change does not occur easily if only one person or one stakeholder class calls for change. Systemic change requires much more consensus and discussion. The issues with the media/press are irrelevant for trying to change bonus structure or trying to review the curricular coverage of a SB game. (The press/media would be important in trying to promote the game and acknowledge teams for hard work performed.) So who is in charge of that? Who is in charge of recruiting question-writers? Who is in charge of setting up the format? Start the changes there in a forum that allows all concerns to be heard, and change will occur... somewhat slowly, but it will.

I am tempted to split off this topic as we're going into an activism tone... not that it's bad, but it's not "comparisons" so much to me.

But I am definitely reading Egan's suggestions with great interest.
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Re: Illinois '08-'09

Post by Siverus Snape »

How much of these threads ever are comparisons?
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