PACE NSC 2008 Question Discussion

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Re: PACE NSC 2008 Question Discussion

Post by wowitsquinthaha » Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:59 pm

Evan wrote:"Dinosaur Comics"
:shock:

EDIT: How do you write a tossup on that?
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Re: PACE NSC 2008 Question Discussion

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Tue Jun 03, 2008 10:12 pm

I'll jump in the chorus of "that suicude tossup was transparent" because i was thinking immediately "hmm, well, people kill themselves a lot and this sounds like the best guess" but I didn't get it because I rarely buzz in off transparent thought processes and thus was beaten by the other team who decided to go for it. On the "native american" thing I had the same problem, I didn't know what Sherman Alexie's tribe was so I was like "hmm, should I gamble and say native americans or do they want whatever tribe he's in" which would be reasonable if he were a member of a major tribe (say, Navajo). The other tossup I had problems with was "odes."
Also, can PACE make an official rule clear to the teams about how "if someone buzzes in, says an answer that is correct up to that point, but they are negged then it is fine to protest." I had a situation where I protested something (it turns out I was wrong, but that's irrelevant to what happened) on the grounds that I was pretty sure that I was right up until the point that I buzzed that my answer was right. The other team then insisted I couldn't protest that because the clues after where I buzzed made me wrong, and it prompted somewhat of an argument with their players about how I have every right to protest when I think I was right up to the point that I buzzed. I know such a rule is just common sense to most of us, but I would like to make sure that it's clear to every team before the games start so people don't have to sit through dumb arguments against an obvious practice.
Onto the music, in our match against TJ A I had 2 pretty serious problems with the music tossups there ("Mozart's Requiem" and "Fantasia on a theme by Thomas Tallis). I would like to see the text of the Mozart question, because I buzzed in off a clue that I thought was saying "One person composing this wrote a tuba mirum" and I just buzzed in with "Requiem" and then was prompted and said "Dies Irae." The tuba mirum is a section of the Dies Irae that is often found as it's own movement in Catholic Requiem settings, so I felt somewhat robbed on that question. With the Tallis, I buzzed in and said "Fantasia on a theme by Thomas Tallis" and was negged because I said "by" instead of "of." Am I the only person who thinks that in a situation like this I should have been awarded the tossup? I mean, that's a really silly thing to hand out a neg over considering how unlikely it was that a lot of teams know the work.
Anyway, mostly a great set, thanks.
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Re: PACE NSC 2008 Question Discussion

Post by AndyShootsAndyScores » Tue Jun 03, 2008 10:40 pm

Deesy Does It wrote:With the Tallis, I buzzed in and said "Fantasia on a theme by Thomas Tallis" and was negged because I said "by" instead of "of." Am I the only person who thinks that in a situation like this I should have been awarded the tossup? I mean, that's a really silly thing to hand out a neg over considering how unlikely it was that a lot of teams know the work.
I don't think you were robbed. Titles are very specific and when it comes to them, you can't just say stuff that means that same thing. It's the equivalent of saying "Of the New World" and wanting it counted correctly. Prepositions are more important than articles in titles, IMO, and we all know how important articles are when it comes to some works.
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Re: PACE NSC 2008 Question Discussion

Post by Matt Weiner » Tue Jun 03, 2008 11:29 pm

In general, you always have the right to bring a protest to the tournament director's attention. Even if the TD only tells you that no, in fact that matter is not protestable, I would prefer to have that decision made at the TD level rather than in the room, to make sure it's correct.
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Re: PACE NSC 2008 Question Discussion

Post by yoda4554 » Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:25 am

Deesy Does It wrote:I'll jump in the chorus of "that suicude tossup was transparent" because i was thinking immediately "hmm, well, people kill themselves a lot and this sounds like the best guess" but I didn't get it because I rarely buzz in off transparent thought processes and thus was beaten by the other team who decided to go for it. On the "native american" thing I had the same problem, I didn't know what Sherman Alexie's tribe was so I was like "hmm, should I gamble and say native americans or do they want whatever tribe he's in" which would be reasonable if he were a member of a major tribe (say, Navajo). The other tossup I had problems with was "odes."
...
Onto the music, in our match against TJ A I had 2 pretty serious problems with the music tossups there ("Mozart's Requiem" and "Fantasia on a theme by Thomas Tallis). I would like to see the text of the Mozart question, because I buzzed in off a clue that I thought was saying "One person composing this wrote a tuba mirum" and I just buzzed in with "Requiem" and then was prompted and said "Dies Irae." The tuba mirum is a section of the Dies Irae that is often found as it's own movement in Catholic Requiem settings, so I felt somewhat robbed on that question. With the Tallis, I buzzed in and said "Fantasia on a theme by Thomas Tallis" and was negged because I said "by" instead of "of." Am I the only person who thinks that in a situation like this I should have been awarded the tossup? I mean, that's a really silly thing to hand out a neg over considering how unlikely it was that a lot of teams know the work.
Anyway, mostly a great set, thanks.
Let me post my original texts of various questions being discussed here:

Robert Levin is one of several recent composers to create a final version of this work differing from the one Franz Sussmayer delivered to Count Walsegg. Its bass soloist duets with a trombone at the start of “Tuba Mirum,” while the four vocal soloists sing in counterpoint near the end of “Domine Jesu Christe.” The double fugue of its second movement, “Kyrie Eleison,” is among its most famous parts, along with the bleak “Dies Irae” and “Lacrymosa.” For 10 points, name this final entry in the Kochel catalogue, an unfinished funeral mass by the composer of Don Giovanni.
ANSWER: Johann Christoph Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart’s Requiem Mass in D Minor, K. 626
<Letzler>

Andrew Marvell used one of their two chief Roman models for his poem about Cromwell’s return from Ireland. A comic one by Thomas Gray ends “Nor all that glisters, gold,” and tells of Selima’s death in a tub of goldfish. Wordsworth’s most famous notes “Our birth is but a sleep and a forgetting” and shows “Intimations of Immorality.” Another Romantic one ends “Fled is that music—Do I wake or sleep?”, and one by the same author declares “Beauty is truth, truth beauty.” For 10 points, name this lyric form that Keats used to discuss a nightingale and a Grecian Urn.
ANSWER: ode
<Letzler>

Vladimir Mayakofsky’s poem “At the Top of My Voice” explains his reasons for doing this. In Three Sisters, Lt. Vershinin claims that his wife frequently attempts to do this without any success, while in The Seagull, Kostya does this while everyone is playing a numbers game. In The Brothers Karamazov, Ivan goes crazy directly after Smerdyakov does this, while in Crime and Punishment, Svidrigailov does it after convincing Dounia to sleep with him. For 10 points, Vronsky’s decision to leave Anna Karenina causes her to use a train to commit what act common to depressed Russians?
ANSWER: commit suicide (accept equivalents)
<Letzler>

The Requiem one, as I wrote it, seems to be quite clearly asking for a particular Requiem--the bass soloist/trombone stuff is rather particular to Mozart's. The odes one may be a hair easy and transparent (I think I underestimated the abilities of the field a bit, having not seen any of you play before I wrote my part of the set), though I still think there are multiple plausible answers most of the way for those without knowledge, but I'm still not clear on why the last would be. "Commit adultery," for instance, is another thing that people do a lot in Russian literature, as is "commit murder," or any of a number of other things that might provoke the responses described.
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Re: PACE NSC 2008 Question Discussion

Post by AndyShootsAndyScores » Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:59 am

yoda4554 wrote:The Requiem one, as I wrote it, seems to be quite clearly asking for a particular Requiem--the bass soloist/trombone stuff is rather particular to Mozart's. The odes one may be a hair easy and transparent (I think I underestimated the abilities of the field a bit, having not seen any of you play before I wrote my part of the set), though I still think there are multiple plausible answers most of the way for those without knowledge, but I'm still not clear on why the last would be. "Commit adultery," for instance, is another thing that people do a lot in Russian literature, as is "commit murder," or any of a number of other things that might provoke the responses described.
The Mozart's Requiem tossup seemed well-written to me, but I'm not a huge music buff, except on theory TUs.

"Ode on the Death of Favourite Cat, Drowned in a Tub of Gold Fishes" is a pretty easy part of the high school canon, I thought.

Committing adultery or murder is hard to do when "everyone" is playing a numbers game, as is rape. Those were 3/4 of the possible answers in my head at that point, so maybe it wasn't as transparent as I though, seeing as how that was almost midway through the question.
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Re: PACE NSC 2008 Question Discussion

Post by Red-necked Phalarope » Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:07 am

wowitsquinthaha wrote:
Evan wrote:"Dinosaur Comics"
:shock:

EDIT: How do you write a tossup on that?
I couldn't help myself and just came up with one for DC off the top of my head. Were this an actual question, the leadin should probably be replaced with a plot point from the comic itself, but this should still show that it's easier than it seems:

A parody of this work by Randall Munroe changes the dominant setting to one where there is "a land bridge between Asia and North America for some reason". Minor characters in this series include Morris, several creepy rodent neighbors, God, and the Devil, who is always seen speaking in red text. The only* objects that appear, aside from the main characters, are a small woman in the fourth panel and an equally small log cabin and car in the third panel, which also features the protagonist and Dromiceiomimius. FTP, identify this webcomic written by Ryan North, in which Utahraptor and T-Rex engage in different conversations using the same six-panel background.

ANSWER: Dinosaur Comics (prompt on Qwantz.com)

Anyway, I have to say I definitely approve of that coming up and I'll be interested to see the question when the set gets released.

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Re: PACE NSC 2008 Question Discussion

Post by Deviant Insider » Wed Jun 04, 2008 7:44 am

Also, can PACE make an official rule clear to the teams about how "if someone buzzes in, says an answer that is correct up to that point, but they are negged then it is fine to protest."
We in Illinois are not the model of good quizbowl, but we just passed a rule I like that, if this situation occurs, states the tossup is thrown out. This situation pretty much only occurs when the tossup is poorly written, which is why it is not a major issue for PACE.
In Three Sisters, Lt. Vershinin claims that his wife frequently attempts to do this without any success
I never read Three Sisters, but that doesn't sound like adultery, murder (which is a major crime to attempt), or vodka drinking.
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Re: PACE NSC 2008 Question Discussion

Post by Magister Ludi » Wed Jun 04, 2008 9:38 am

The Mozart's Requiem question was changed because Sussmayr was too early in the question, and the ode question kind of boiled down to ode or elegy pretty quickly (with elegy being highly unlikely because elegies are rasrely "comic.") I thought the common link tossups in literature were generally pretty good in this set, but there were a few transparent questions which is something we will try to change for next year.

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Re: PACE NSC 2008 Question Discussion

Post by harpersferry » Wed Jun 04, 2008 9:52 am

For the record, I'm not sure what the underlining was on the requiem TU, but I only said "Requiem" when I could tell it was an unfinished mass (not sure where exactly, probably near where Charlie buzzed or slightly after) and logically deduced it to be this one (since I couldn't think of others). I was surprised myself that I wasn't prompted (though I knew it to be Mozart's anyway).
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Re: PACE NSC 2008 Question Discussion

Post by pray for elves » Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:52 am

pasedpawn wrote:For the record, I'm not sure what the underlining was on the requiem TU, but I only said "Requiem" when I could tell it was an unfinished mass (not sure where exactly, probably near where Charlie buzzed or slightly after) and logically deduced it to be this one (since I couldn't think of others). I was surprised myself that I wasn't prompted (though I knew it to be Mozart's anyway).
That's a little surprising that your moderator accepted just "Requiem"; on my packet, both Mozart and Requiem were underlined, and I prompted and then ruled incorrect someone who buzzed only with "Requiem" who failed to add anything else after the prompt.
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Re: PACE NSC 2008 Question Discussion

Post by BuzzerZen » Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:03 am

For the record, my Dinosaur Comics question, first clue selected by Matt Weiner:

According to the main character, farmers call horses "nature's dominoes." Minor, mostly unseen, characters include Mr. Tusks, the vice-mayor of Tiny Towne, Batman's floating head, and some very creepy raccoons and cephalopods that live next door. God and the Devil also regularly converse with the main character in all caps without punctuation. The main character appears in all six panels in every strip, stomping first on a tiny house, then on a tiny woman. For ten points, identify this webcomic by Ryan North that stars a Dromeceiomimus, a Utahraptor, and a Tyrannosaurus Rex.

Answer: Dinosaur Comics (Prompt on qwantz.com)
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Re: PACE NSC 2008 Question Discussion

Post by Red-necked Phalarope » Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:25 am

BuzzerZen wrote:For the record, my Dinosaur Comics question, first clue selected by Matt Weiner:

According to the main character, farmers call horses "nature's dominoes." Minor, mostly unseen, characters include Mr. Tusks, the vice-mayor of Tiny Towne, Batman's floating head, and some very creepy raccoons and cephalopods that live next door. God and the Devil also regularly converse with the main character in all caps without punctuation. The main character appears in all six panels in every strip, stomping first on a tiny house, then on a tiny woman. For ten points, identify this webcomic by Ryan North that stars a Dromeceiomimus, a Utahraptor, and a Tyrannosaurus Rex.

Answer: Dinosaur Comics (Prompt on qwantz.com)
For the record, I hadn't seen a word of that question until just now.

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Re: PACE NSC 2008 Question Discussion

Post by Howard » Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:41 pm

Deesy Does It wrote:Also, can PACE make an official rule clear to the teams about how "if someone buzzes in, says an answer that is correct up to that point, but they are negged then it is fine to protest." I had a situation where I protested something (it turns out I was wrong, but that's irrelevant to what happened) on the grounds that I was pretty sure that I was right up until the point that I buzzed that my answer was right. The other team then insisted I couldn't protest that because the clues after where I buzzed made me wrong, and it prompted somewhat of an argument with their players about how I have every right to protest when I think I was right up to the point that I buzzed. I know such a rule is just common sense to most of us, but I would like to make sure that it's clear to every team before the games start so people don't have to sit through dumb arguments against an obvious practice.
I'm pretty sure the protest rules make your protest allowable. I'm also pretty sure that the general philosophy is that correct up to the point of the buzz is typically allowable in the NSC. We didn't spend a lot of time on the rules in the moderator meeting, but those are my recollections from browsing the rules while scorekeeping the first match. In general, if there's any question about a teams right to protest, I'll err on the side of right to protest and let the TD issue a ruling otherwise if necessary. I'll try to yank the rules out of my car and look at them tomorrow or something. Or, of course, someone with a copy of the official rules at their disposal could post the relevant parts.
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Re: PACE NSC 2008 Question Discussion

Post by Matt Weiner » Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:48 pm

These are the grounds for protests right now. Our annual post-NSC discussion of potential refinements to the rules has not yet occurred.
4. Grounds for protests. The following criteria, and only the following, are protestable:
4.1. The answer in the packet is wrong for the question and the protesting player/team gave the correct
answer.
4.2. The question or answer was ambiguous, so the answer given by the player should be accepted since
it fits all the clues given in the entire question text.
4.3. The player gave a correct alternate name for the answer that was not included in the list of
acceptable answers to the question.
4.4. Two or more clues within the question uniquely describe different answers, or one clue definitely does
not refer to the same answer as the other clues—hence, there is no correct answer to the question.
This protest may be lodged by either team at the end of a question converted by neither team or by
the team that did not get the question after a question is converted by one team. However, if this
situation arises on a tossup that the other team converted before the first clue creating a
contradiction was read, there may be no protest because the team that missed the question was not
misled.
4.5. More information was required than was reasonable to identify the answer, and the protesting player
gave sufficient information to identify the answer but not as much as the packet required and was
ruled incorrect.
4.6. The protesting team’s opponent received credit for an incorrect answer through either packet or
moderator error.
Thus, while there is no specific grounds for "the answer was right at the time," I would certainly accept that as a protest under rule 4.1 or 4.4., if it came at a reasonable point in a tossup. By this I mean: If a tossup starts with the phrase "This woman," of course you can't buzz with Caroline Gordon and protest that you were right when you buzzed. However, if you heard a clue about "Alec Maury, Sportsman," buzzed with Caroline Gordon, heard nothing that could reasonably be expected to rule out some other person who wrote a book of that title, and were told no this is actually Francine Connor, noted author of a vanity press edition of "Alec Maury, Sportsman"...yeah, you could protest that.

Generally, that's the sort of thing that is taken care of by writing good questions, so I hope it doesn't come up very often. But if it does happen, the TD would like to hear about it and possibly correct it.
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Re: PACE NSC 2008 Question Discussion

Post by samer » Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:15 pm

AndyShootsAndyScores wrote:
Deesy Does It wrote:With the Tallis, I buzzed in and said "Fantasia on a theme by Thomas Tallis" and was negged because I said "by" instead of "of." Am I the only person who thinks that in a situation like this I should have been awarded the tossup? I mean, that's a really silly thing to hand out a neg over considering how unlikely it was that a lot of teams know the work.
I don't think you were robbed. Titles are very specific and when it comes to them, you can't just say stuff that means that same thing. It's the equivalent of saying "Of the New World" and wanting it counted correctly. Prepositions are more important than articles in titles, IMO, and we all know how important articles are when it comes to some works.
While titles are specific, when it comes to musical works, they're a lot less "definitive" than they are for, say, novels. For example, if you look at this page, you'll see that recordings of the work have indeed been published under both forms--so I would agree with Charlie that he was robbed; in fact, if he said "by" and was ruled incorrect, then I would argue that the problem is that the question had the wrong answer (the Dover score uses "by"). [I also hope that Tallis Fantasia was an acceptable alternative.]

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Re: PACE NSC 2008 Question Discussion

Post by AndyShootsAndyScores » Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:16 pm

samer wrote:
AndyShootsAndyScores wrote:
Deesy Does It wrote:With the Tallis, I buzzed in and said "Fantasia on a theme by Thomas Tallis" and was negged because I said "by" instead of "of." Am I the only person who thinks that in a situation like this I should have been awarded the tossup? I mean, that's a really silly thing to hand out a neg over considering how unlikely it was that a lot of teams know the work.
I don't think you were robbed. Titles are very specific and when it comes to them, you can't just say stuff that means that same thing. It's the equivalent of saying "Of the New World" and wanting it counted correctly. Prepositions are more important than articles in titles, IMO, and we all know how important articles are when it comes to some works.
While titles are specific, when it comes to musical works, they're a lot less "definitive" than they are for, say, novels. For example, if you look at this page, you'll see that recordings of the work have indeed been published under both forms--so I would agree with Charlie that he was robbed; in fact, if he said "by" and was ruled incorrect, then I would argue that the problem is that the question had the wrong answer (the Dover score uses "by"). [I also hope that Tallis Fantasia was an acceptable alternative.]
I think this discussion has already come up in a previous thread, but yeah, if a title's been written/sold/played under a different name, then it's definitely acceptable under that title. I didn't really do a lot of research when I posted that (in fact, non I did a grand total of none), so my opinion has been reversed.
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Re: PACE NSC 2008 Question Discussion

Post by fleurdelivre » Wed Jun 04, 2008 3:08 pm

samer wrote:
AndyShootsAndyScores wrote:
Deesy Does It wrote:With the Tallis, I buzzed in and said "Fantasia on a theme by Thomas Tallis" and was negged because I said "by" instead of "of." Am I the only person who thinks that in a situation like this I should have been awarded the tossup? I mean, that's a really silly thing to hand out a neg over considering how unlikely it was that a lot of teams know the work.
I don't think you were robbed. Titles are very specific and when it comes to them, you can't just say stuff that means that same thing. It's the equivalent of saying "Of the New World" and wanting it counted correctly. Prepositions are more important than articles in titles, IMO, and we all know how important articles are when it comes to some works.
While titles are specific, when it comes to musical works, they're a lot less "definitive" than they are for, say, novels. For example, if you look at this page, you'll see that recordings of the work have indeed been published under both forms--so I would agree with Charlie that he was robbed; in fact, if he said "by" and was ruled incorrect, then I would argue that the problem is that the question had the wrong answer (the Dover score uses "by"). [I also hope that Tallis Fantasia was an acceptable alternative.]
Sorry, Charlie. I was in that room, and while Tallis Fantasia was indeed an alternate answer, the whole title was underlined and "by" simply wasn't listed as an acceptable answer. My apologies - you should've protested it, I suppose.
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Re: PACE NSC 2008 Question Discussion

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Wed Jun 04, 2008 4:45 pm

I did protest it, but it wasn't enough swing to make them go through with the protest. Dave - the requiem question was clearly changed because Sussmayr came up a while after I buzzed, which is a clue I would have most certainly been able to link to Mozart. I'm curious to have someone post what the final question was, as it seemed to me to be much less specific then what your question says.
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Re: PACE NSC 2008 Question Discussion

Post by Matt Weiner » Wed Jun 04, 2008 4:53 pm

Robert Levin is one of several recent composers to create a version of this work, in which a bass soloist duets with a trombone at the start of “Tuba Mirum,” while the four vocal soloists sing in counterpoint near the end of “Domine Jesu Christe.” Franz Sussmayer was one of the most notable people to try completing this work, which has a double fugue at the end of the "Kyrie." It also includes the bleak “Dies Irae” and “Lacrymosa.” For 10 points, name this final entry in the Kochel catalogue, an unfinished funeral mass by the composer of Don Giovanni.
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Re: PACE NSC 2008 Question Discussion

Post by theattachment » Wed Jun 04, 2008 9:19 pm

In reading the original and the edited versions, I would have to agree that the tossup was unnecessarily reworded. Structurally, the edited one is better (Sussmayer was way too early in the question). However...
As it came up in the tournament wrote:Robert Levin is one of several recent composers to create a version of this work, in which a bass soloist duets with a trombone at the start of “Tuba Mirum,” while the four vocal soloists sing in counterpoint near the end of “Domine Jesu Christe.” Franz Sussmayer was one of the most notable people to try completing this work, which has a double fugue at the end of the "Kyrie." It also includes the bleak “Dies Irae” and “Lacrymosa.” For 10 points, name this final entry in the Kochel catalogue, an unfinished funeral mass by the composer of Don Giovanni.
Compare it to the original:
When it was first written wrote:Robert Levin is one of several recent composers to create a final version of this work differing from the one Franz Sussmayer delivered to Count Walsegg. Its bass soloist duets with a trombone at the start of “Tuba Mirum,” while the four vocal soloists sing in counterpoint near the end of “Domine Jesu Christe.” The double fugue of its second movement, “Kyrie Eleison,” is among its most famous parts, along with the bleak “Dies Irae” and “Lacrymosa.” For 10 points, name this final entry in the Kochel catalogue, an unfinished funeral mass by the composer of Don Giovanni.
On the original, the use of the wording "final version" makes it clear that it is a specific Requiem mass; in the tournament version, it's unnecessarily ambiguous up until Franz Sussmayer is referenced. As the tournament version words it, Levin's Requiem just ripped off Mozart's like crazy instead of being a continuation of it. Levin's version can be a really good clue if you mention the sections he added that Mozart didn't finish and place it as a second clue (though I don't know what the first would be).
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Re: PACE NSC 2008 Question Discussion

Post by AE Ismail » Thu Jun 05, 2008 2:02 am

samer wrote:
AndyShootsAndyScores wrote:
Deesy Does It wrote:With the Tallis, I buzzed in and said "Fantasia on a theme by Thomas Tallis" and was negged because I said "by" instead of "of." Am I the only person who thinks that in a situation like this I should have been awarded the tossup? I mean, that's a really silly thing to hand out a neg over considering how unlikely it was that a lot of teams know the work.
I don't think you were robbed. Titles are very specific and when it comes to them, you can't just say stuff that means that same thing. It's the equivalent of saying "Of the New World" and wanting it counted correctly. Prepositions are more important than articles in titles, IMO, and we all know how important articles are when it comes to some works.
While titles are specific, when it comes to musical works, they're a lot less "definitive" than they are for, say, novels. For example, if you look at this page, you'll see that recordings of the work have indeed been published under both forms--so I would agree with Charlie that he was robbed; in fact, if he said "by" and was ruled incorrect, then I would argue that the problem is that the question had the wrong answer (the Dover score uses "by"). [I also hope that Tallis Fantasia was an acceptable alternative.]
Charlie, as the author of that question, the EPIC FAIL on not accepting "by" is all mine. I should have had that listed as the correct title ("of" is the alternate, not the official title). I was not as methodical in tracking down alternate as I normally am (2008 has not been a particularly good year for me in terms of having enough time to finish things to the level I would like). I was actually expecting most teams to go with "Tallis Fantasia" rather than the full title. (Sort of like the "Paganini Rhapsody" or the "Haydn Variations."

To raise another point from upthread, I think a lot of foreign translations--especially of prepositions--are problematic. Taking the "From the New World" example suggested above, I suspect that "Of the New World" would technically be correct (although it's not the "popular" nickname, it's a valid translation of the Czech title.

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Re: PACE NSC 2008 Question Discussion

Post by AE Ismail » Thu Jun 05, 2008 2:05 am

theattachment wrote: On the original, the use of the wording "final version" makes it clear that it is a specific Requiem mass; in the tournament version, it's unnecessarily ambiguous up until Franz Sussmayer is referenced. As the tournament version words it, Levin's Requiem just ripped off Mozart's like crazy instead of being a continuation of it. Levin's version can be a really good clue if you mention the sections he added that Mozart didn't finish and place it as a second clue (though I don't know what the first would be).
Actually, the bass duet with a trombone at the start of the Tuba mirum pretty much locks in the Mozart version. I don't know of another requiem with a comparable orchestration at that point--or edited by Robert Levin, for that matter.

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Re: PACE NSC 2008 Question Discussion

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:05 pm

Right, but that doesn't eliminate the possibility that it might be some Robert Levin considering the way it's written. I already told this to Matt, but a simple way to eliminate the confusion is to include a specific difference in the Levin version (which lends itself very easily to those kinds of clue since he made the work much more brass heavy, added an extra "amen" movement based on a sketch Mozart made, and took out the Sanctus and Benedictus movements since Mozart had no music sketched out for them.) Telling us a clue like that would have eliminated the confusion about what they want, and it would have allowed someone who's heard the Levin version to buzz off a very concrete clue.
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Re: PACE NSC 2008 Question Discussion

Post by theattachment » Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:41 pm

Deesy Does It wrote:Right, but that doesn't eliminate the possibility that it might be some Robert Levin considering the way it's written. I already told this to Matt, but a simple way to eliminate the confusion is to include a specific difference in the Levin version (which lends itself very easily to those kinds of clue since he made the work much more brass heavy, added an extra "amen" movement based on a sketch Mozart made, and took out the Sanctus and Benedictus movements since Mozart had no music sketched out for them.) Telling us a clue like that would have eliminated the confusion about what they want, and it would have allowed someone who's heard the Levin version to buzz off a very concrete clue.
My point exactly; Levin's editions include different portions of the piece, and if those portions had been mentioned it would have been a lot more acceptable. That said, "thing that sounds like a requiem that added/subtracted things from original" becomes really transparent for Mozart, so it's a fine line.
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Re: PACE NSC 2008 Question Discussion

Post by AE Ismail » Fri Jun 06, 2008 1:00 am

theattachment wrote:
Deesy Does It wrote:Right, but that doesn't eliminate the possibility that it might be some Robert Levin considering the way it's written. I already told this to Matt, but a simple way to eliminate the confusion is to include a specific difference in the Levin version (which lends itself very easily to those kinds of clue since he made the work much more brass heavy, added an extra "amen" movement based on a sketch Mozart made, and took out the Sanctus and Benedictus movements since Mozart had no music sketched out for them.) Telling us a clue like that would have eliminated the confusion about what they want, and it would have allowed someone who's heard the Levin version to buzz off a very concrete clue.
My point exactly; Levin's editions include different portions of the piece, and if those portions had been mentioned it would have been a lot more acceptable. That said, "thing that sounds like a requiem that added/subtracted things from original" becomes really transparent for Mozart, so it's a fine line.
In general, it's hard to talk about the editing of the Requiem without pointing to it--there are relatively few other works in the QB canon that were completed by other composers. (And even fewer completed by more than one composer.)

You'd be better off starting with something specific to the work itself, and then moving on to discuss editions.

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Re: PACE NSC 2008 Question Discussion

Post by AndyShootsAndyScores » Fri Jun 06, 2008 1:03 am

lone1c wrote:In general, it's hard to talk about the editing of the Requiem without pointing to it--there are relatively few other works in the QB canon that were completed by other composers. (And even fewer completed by more than one composer.)
There are quite a few unfinished symphonies that others have attempted to complete.
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Re: PACE NSC 2008 Question Discussion

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Fri Jun 06, 2008 2:26 pm

Yeah, but at a high schol tournament its incredibly more likely that Mozart's Requiem will come up than, say, Mahler's 10th symphony or Ives's Emerson concerto (the only other major unfinished works that I can come up with off the top of my head at that level are Turandot and Schubert's 8th, and the Schubert was never really reconstructed/completed by someone in a meaningful, frequently performed way, so it's not really open to those kinds of clues).
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Re: PACE NSC 2008 Question Discussion

Post by cdcarter » Fri Jun 06, 2008 7:47 pm

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Re: PACE NSC 2008 Question Discussion

Post by Auks Ran Ova » Sat Jun 07, 2008 2:54 am

cdcarter wrote:Questions up at http://quizbowlpackets.com
aaargh why must you torment me with your non-zip-file question posting
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Re: PACE NSC 2008 Question Discussion

Post by dschafer » Sat Jun 07, 2008 3:31 am

Ukonvasara wrote:
cdcarter wrote:Questions up at http://quizbowlpackets.com
aaargh why must you torment me with your non-zip-file question posting
Try FlashGot: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/220.
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Re: PACE NSC 2008 Question Discussion

Post by cdcarter » Sat Jun 07, 2008 11:46 am

Ukonvasara wrote:
cdcarter wrote:Questions up at http://quizbowlpackets.com
aaargh why must you torment me with your non-zip-file question posting
I use non-zips so searching the archive works, but I suppose I can drop in a zip for you.
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Re: PACE NSC 2008 Question Discussion

Post by Auks Ran Ova » Sat Jun 07, 2008 9:36 pm

cdcarter wrote:
Ukonvasara wrote:
cdcarter wrote:Questions up at http://quizbowlpackets.com
aaargh why must you torment me with your non-zip-file question posting
I use non-zips so searching the archive works, but I suppose I can drop in a zip for you.
yaaaaay :grin:
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Re: PACE NSC 2008 Question Discussion

Post by First Chairman » Sun Jun 08, 2008 12:01 am

How does this work, Dan?
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Re: PACE NSC 2008 Question Discussion

Post by Mike Bentley » Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:20 am

All of the matches I recorded are now up at http://www.doc-ent.com/qbc. They are episode 25.
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Re: PACE NSC 2008 Question Discussion

Post by dschafer » Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:30 am

ILoveReeses wrote:
How does this work, Dan?
It's a Firefox extension that adds extra commands to the right-click context menu for downloads; specifically "FlashGot Selection", which downloads all highlighted links. Thus, you can just highlight all the packets, pick a destination folder and "FlashGot Selection" them to download the packets if they're not zipped. Also recommended for NAQT podcast links.

EDIT: And links in the post immediately above mine. :grin: (Please use responsibly on large quantities of large files so as not to crash servers.)
Last edited by dschafer on Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: PACE NSC 2008 Question Discussion

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:32 am

HE HIT ME!
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Re: PACE NSC 2008 Question Discussion

Post by ClemsonQB » Mon Jun 09, 2008 6:03 pm

What was the effect of the Godwine clue on the game, was the question answered before this or no? (I had to leave early and so I didn't see the finals)
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Re: PACE NSC 2008 Question Discussion

Post by vcuEvan » Mon Jun 09, 2008 6:07 pm

quizbowlabc wrote:What was the effect of the Godwine clue on the game, was the question answered before this or no? (I had to leave early and so I didn't see the finals)
It was answered after this, but not directly after.
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Re: PACE NSC 2008 Question Discussion

Post by Kechara » Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:11 pm

Deesy Does It wrote:HE HIT ME!
Wasn't he that XFL player? Oh, wait... :lol:
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Re: PACE NSC 2008 Question Discussion

Post by Ed McMahon » Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:53 pm

Kechara wrote:
Deesy Does It wrote:HE HIT ME!
Wasn't he that XFL player? Oh, wait... :lol:
HIYO!
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Re: PACE NSC 2008 Question Discussion

Post by lasercats » Sun Jun 15, 2008 5:03 pm

BuzzerZen wrote:For the record, my Dinosaur Comics question, first clue selected by Matt Weiner:

According to the main character, farmers call horses "nature's dominoes." Minor, mostly unseen, characters include Mr. Tusks, the vice-mayor of Tiny Towne, Batman's floating head, and some very creepy raccoons and cephalopods that live next door. God and the Devil also regularly converse with the main character in all caps without punctuation. The main character appears in all six panels in every strip, stomping first on a tiny house, then on a tiny woman. For ten points, identify this webcomic by Ryan North that stars a Dromeceiomimus, a Utahraptor, and a Tyrannosaurus Rex.

Answer: Dinosaur Comics (Prompt on qwantz.com)


I nominate this for best question EVAR!
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Re: PACE NSC 2008 Question Discussion

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Sun Jun 15, 2008 5:29 pm

"Evar"? Really?
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Re: PACE NSC 2008 Question Discussion

Post by Auks Ran Ova » Sun Jun 15, 2008 10:24 pm

lasercats wrote:EVAR!
will you please cut the 4**** crap out and speak like a normal person
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