2008 QU NAC: B. T. Washington (OK) wins!

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Re: NAC Schedules

Post by Captain Sinico »

lasercats wrote:Clearly, I am too stupid and unworthy of being at this board because I happen to enjoy a certain competition.
Okay, this isn't going to fly. Nobody said anything like that and, if you post like this, you will be unworthy of this board for a while (for reasons having nothing to do with how you feel about NAC.)

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Re: NAC Schedules

Post by Mechanical Beasts »

cornfused wrote:
lasercats wrote:However, I have the integrity to stand up for my belief that NAC is a valid and rewarding competition. It may not be as "perfect" as NAQT and PACE apparently are, but I like to root for the underdog.
I'm pretty sure the "underdog" in her statement refers to the NAC itself, guys.
lasercats wrote:And what happened yesterday? The underdog, rated 42 in the Byko won.
This is a failed witticism and the "underdog" here is different than in the previous quote - seriously, the "underdog" must've referred to the NAC. Right?
In that sense, I root for the underdog too. I think it would be great if NAC stopped sucking. But I think most theories of civil disobedience have as a common denominator the premise that it's okay to break political obligations to a state if it's unjust. I think it's definitely okay not to go out of your way to support a bad organization.

But with NAC, just as civil disobedience would have me do with a state, I'm not doing it because I wish the state ill--I'm doing it because I want to make the state improve. Rawls would say that since all those in a community, including the government, share a common sense of justice, we'd be refusing to participate--and vocally--so that the organization realizes that it's doing wrong, and stops. I think this is overly optimistic about the situation, because there is systematic injustice here, and a tangible dissonance between our morals and Chip's, so instead (as Lyons might encourage) we're refusing to participate in an unjust system because we can't be morally obligated by another actor to do evil, and because--since Chip can't actually do everything himself--eventually he'd have to change his ways if enough of us point out what's wrong..
cornfused wrote:
lasercats wrote:I don't think I'll be able to show my face tomorrow.
Sarcasm, Andy.
Misinterpreted for hilarity, Greg. Which was rude of me, and Maggie, I apologize. I understood your meaning.

EDIT: I was not drunk when I wrote this. I am not drunk now. The IRC has informed me that this is hard to believe, which I regret. I'd also like to clarify that I'm referring to David Lyons, not any collection of individual men (or women!) named Lyon. Apologies for a moderately coherent (okay, not at all coherent) attempt to model QU as a corrupt government.
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Re: NAC Schedules

Post by First Chairman »

ImmaculateDeception wrote:
lasercats wrote:Clearly, I am too stupid and unworthy of being at this board because I happen to enjoy a certain competition.
Okay, this isn't going to fly. Nobody said anything like that and, if you post like this, you will be unworthy of this board for a while (for reasons having nothing to do with how you feel about NAC.)

MaS
Mike, the quote is... with my emphasis...
Matt Weiner wrote: I can't talk about specific questions until the NAC is completely done, but let me assure you, based on my observations, that the NAC is worse than ever, the people claiming anything about it has improved are on crack, and that everyone, including our new NAC moderator poster, who is involved in any way with putting on such a nonsense excuse for a tournament should be ashamed of themselves.
I don't know why anyone ought to be "ashamed of themselves" if the presumption is inferred that she is "on crack". I am not sure what "code" is being used with saying she is "on crack", but I don't know many people who are considered role models who are.

Again... she deserves a break on this.
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Re: NAC Schedules

Post by Matt Weiner »

Hey, in case anyone is having trouble deciphering my apparently coded messages, let me just spell out that the NAC is completely unacceptable as quizbowl and you are either intellectually or morally deficient if you disagree. Especially if you are Maggie Larkin, Booker T. Washington High School Alum, Winner of 1st annual "Who Wants to Be a Game Show Host?" at NAC, who cannot defend the indefensible with argument and must instead resort to insults. Thus, she will get only insults in return.

No "breaks" will be deserved or given for people who continue to endorse the NAC.
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Re: NAC Schedules

Post by First Chairman »

Matt Weiner wrote:
ILoveReeses wrote:Slight disagreement with the crowd here. Singling out Maggie specifically in saying that she and everyone else affiliated with NAC should be ashamed of being associated with that event... I personally think is out of line.
That's funny, because I think offering teams execrable questions and substandard ethics is out of line!
So is your point to be humorous or is your point to be critical? My interpretation of the exchange is that she found that singling her out was a personal attack. Look, we agree we don't like the NAC questions or the tournament or the questionable ethical practices of the chief person running the show, but I didn't think you needed to single out her specific complicity in your remark. (If you had left it out, I'd have no beef.) Didn't we agree to just point to the qbwiki in these circumstances?

If this were in AHAN, I'd have less of a problem. But let's not attack a poster who clearly didn't ask for it in the beginning. I think we should move this over to AHAN where this is much more acceptable (even if I don't accept this type of posting).

If this were caused by something remarkably stupid (whatever his name from North Myrtle Beach), then yeah... fair game. But Maggie didn't do anything here until she was specifically mentioned.
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Re: NAC Schedules

Post by Captain Sinico »

... Chuck, man, what the hell are you talking about? "Code?"

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Re: NAC Schedules

Post by Matt Weiner »

ILoveReeses wrote:So is your point to be humorous or is your point to be critical? My interpretation of the exchange is that she found that singling her out was a personal attack. Look, we agree we don't like the NAC questions or the tournament or the questionable ethical practices of the chief person running the show, but I didn't think you needed to single out her specific complicity in your remark. (If you left it out, I'd have no beef.) Didn't we agree to just point to the qbwiki in these circumstances?

If this were in AHAN, I'd have less of a problem. But let's not attack a poster who clearly didn't ask for it in the beginning. I think we should move this over to AHAN where this is much more acceptable (even if I don't accept this type of posting).
OK, well, I am attacking her personally, because there is something wrong with her personally, namely:
*She supports the ethically contemptible entity known as the NAC
*She is clearly a great example of the biased moderating corps that makes the NAC a joke as a competition, posting on this board to boast about "her" team winning a tournament she was involved in running
*She is acting like a typically insane NAC supporter by calling everyone who doesn't support plagiarism and fleecing teams of their money "brats" instead of engaging in any sort of reasonable discussion

Not everyone in the world is a good person, Tom. I am not going to force myself or anyone else on this board to pretend that such a false idea is the case.
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Re: NAC Schedules

Post by First Chairman »

Matt Weiner wrote:
ILoveReeses wrote:So is your point to be humorous or is your point to be critical? My interpretation of the exchange is that she found that singling her out was a personal attack. Look, we agree we don't like the NAC questions or the tournament or the questionable ethical practices of the chief person running the show, but I didn't think you needed to single out her specific complicity in your remark. (If you left it out, I'd have no beef.) Didn't we agree to just point to the qbwiki in these circumstances?

If this were in AHAN, I'd have less of a problem. But let's not attack a poster who clearly didn't ask for it in the beginning. I think we should move this over to AHAN where this is much more acceptable (even if I don't accept this type of posting).
OK, well, I am attacking her personally, because there is something wrong with her personally, namely:
*She supports the ethically contemptible entity known as the NAC
*She is clearly a great example of the biased moderating corps that makes the NAC a joke as a competition, posting on this board to boast about "her" team on winning a tournament she was involved in running
*She is acting like a typically insane NAC supporter by calling everyone who doesn't support plagiarism and fleecing teams of their money "brats" instead of engaging in any sort of reasonable discussion

Not everyone in the world is a good person, Tom. I am not going to force myself or anyone else on this board to pretend that such a false idea is the case.
On point three: where did she say she supported plagiarism or fleecing money?

But I am not making a judgment on her character. Sure, I wouldn't be overjoyed if I were offered a position as a mod at Chip's comp knowing what I know, but I'm not her. And if I were flown by the Air Force to tour an air force base hospital (as I did do earlier this year), I sure as heck wouldn't be screaming "Air Force sucks!" while I was on the trip.

Sure, we wouldn't take the trip but she did. I would hate to think that that sole decision dooms her to hell. If there's anyone I'd single out it would be Jason Russell who should know better. I know Brick (you do too, I'm sure, and he's a great guy who I like and talk to occasionally and he reads this forum often), and he appears on the college masters circuit a lot, so I'd consider him fair game if you did that. David Madden... absolutely because his Ridgewood team played at NSC in 1999. But you're beating up on the rookie... really now... her pic and bio aren't even on the website! Let's lampoon what she was trained to do as a moderator... okay... because all of Chip's mods are similar. (You'd know how it was this year.)

Her placement there is a gimmick on the part of Chip... I won't deny that assessment. She had a great time at that tournament as a player... fine! Do I have a problem with her glowing reviews of QUNAC, yes. That's not the point. We can critique that, and I trust you guys can too. We lampoon Rae Gambler's and Brock Putnam's quotes until our stomachs hurt of laughing so hard. I'm with you there. But this is like attacking a 13-year-old Chelsea Clinton for stupid things Bill/Hillary Clinton did. Worse, we are giving Chip and his minions more ammo by insulting her in this forum, and by association we become less effective in trying to promote our cause or our website or our tournaments as being superior. There are better examples where we know people are drinking the Kool-Aid who are clearly just being ignorant who ought to know better. We have a right to say "we beg to differ". But ... I just feel very uncomfortable with how we got to the point where she insulted everyone with "Brat" (like that's a horrible word that should insult military kids... when did we go back to middle school?).

I'm just expressing my own opinion, and I know you don't agree. But I just wanted to say what I thought on this. I'm extremely certain nothing at NAC has changed, and that all this previous talk about how Chip has "improved so much" is a bunch of bunk. But attack the message not the messenger. To that point: is it just because she works for Chip that she's incapable of being a good person? Incapable of "seeing the light"? I'm not trying to make a judgment that she's good or bad in my original objection... just that you all shouldn't provoke her to call you a brat in the first place.

You also opened the argument about "he who is without sin" with the last (not everyone is a good person...)... what gives any of us the right to make a summary judgment that she is a bad person... and it's based on her activities with quiz bowl? Are we serious? If we're not serious... then don't call her into the principal's office for her use of "brat." If we are serious... come on. It's quiz bowl. ... a very flawed version, but still... If you want to stop perpetuating the lie that is :chip: 's tournament, fine... but my original point is why call her out specifically? You are making a deliberate choice to single her out solely because she posts on this forum. In effect you are trying to embarass, shame, and humiliate her solely... not Chip. That's not something we should be doing as I think it could result in a backlash of sympathy for her... and thus you undermine your own purpose with that statement. You're assigning her to be the straw man in the place of :chip: ... and I just don't think that's right. Her reaction is logical to predict as a result, and thus this tactic is provocative and not fair to her.

If it were the bum from Myrtle Beach, yeah... let's blast him for the vacuous posts. But I don't see where she deserved such an outing other than the fact she got hired by Chip but still found her way here anyway. Shouldn't she get some credit for being open to this rather hostile environment? It's easy to convert the choir, but converting the "heathens" among the qb world is not effective when done this way.
Last edited by First Chairman on Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:28 am, edited 3 times in total.
Reason: Still writing because this entire thread has now prevented me from falling to sleep.
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Re: NAC Schedules

Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh »

Matt Weiner wrote:
ILoveReeses wrote:So is your point to be humorous or is your point to be critical? My interpretation of the exchange is that she found that singling her out was a personal attack. Look, we agree we don't like the NAC questions or the tournament or the questionable ethical practices of the chief person running the show, but I didn't think you needed to single out her specific complicity in your remark. (If you left it out, I'd have no beef.) Didn't we agree to just point to the qbwiki in these circumstances?

If this were in AHAN, I'd have less of a problem. But let's not attack a poster who clearly didn't ask for it in the beginning. I think we should move this over to AHAN where this is much more acceptable (even if I don't accept this type of posting).
OK, well, I am attacking her personally, because there is something wrong with her personally, namely:
*She supports the ethically contemptible entity known as the NAC
*She is clearly a great example of the biased moderating corps that makes the NAC a joke as a competition, posting on this board to boast about "her" team winning a tournament she was involved in running
*She is acting like a typically insane NAC supporter by calling everyone who doesn't support plagiarism and fleecing teams of their money "brats" instead of engaging in any sort of reasonable discussion

Not everyone in the world is a good person, Tom. I am not going to force myself or anyone else on this board to pretend that such a false idea is the case.
I'll say this re: supporting NAC -- as an Illinoisian, I know that until you're shown specific examples of what good quizbowl is, with the proper arguments, it is really hard to argue against bad quizbowl. From what I've gathered, this is her first year out of high school, coming from a high school that I've never heard of outside of NAC. If she's never seen a pyramidal question, she can't be blamed for thinking NAC is passable. If she's never seen proper tournament directing, she can't be blamed for thinking Chip's means are fair. I don't want to bring up Steinhice's rules, but if it's literally the only game in town, you play. Now, she's here, we've shown her the QB Wiki articles, and she's (I hope) talking to Dr. Chuck. After all of this, she'll have the knowledge of why NAC is bad (both as "bad quizbowl" and as a shoddy competition) and why the alternatives are good. She'll have the knowledge of why Chip is a corrupt tournament director. Then and only then can we judge her as "supporting" NAC. I would have done the same if it were an option when I was a freshman in high school, because I had no idea anything else was out there.

I agree wholeheartedly with everything Dr. Chuck just said, as well.
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Re: NAC Schedules

Post by Tegan »

Matt W. wrote:OK, well, I am attacking her personally, because there is something wrong with her personally, namely:
*She supports the ethically contemptible entity known as the NAC
*She is clearly a great example of the biased moderating corps that makes the NAC a joke as a competition, posting on this board to boast about "her" team winning a tournament she was involved in running
*She is acting like a typically insane NAC supporter by calling everyone who doesn't support plagiarism and fleecing teams of their money "brats" instead of engaging in any sort of reasonable discussion

Not everyone in the world is a good person, Tom. I am not going to force myself or anyone else on this board to pretend that such a false idea is the case.
I've said all of this before, but it seems that from time to time it is best to say it again:
1. Over time, I have grown to see a great deal of what Matt W. says is true in regards o the ideas behind good and bad quizbowl. Matt and I do not 100% agree, but there is far more agreement today than 3 years ago.

2. This "they insult me, so I return an insult" is eighteenth century biker gang mentality has to stop ... not just because it is uncouth of someone who is supposed to be one of the national leaders in quizbowl .... I am not a fan of "wikipedia Calvinball-style civility".

3. Matt W. is one of the biggest shills for the NAC.

Got your attention, didn't it ... I will elaborate.

Matt, I love you, I respect you, but if I were Chip, I would be sending you annual checks and thank you letters. While people like you and me may not respond well to artificial kindness, it is also true that there are a lot of people who react very differently to the harshness of the truth and being slapped upside the head with the cold trout of facts. Every time you come across with what some people see as this Chipesque-holier-than-thou-attitude, there are a (I hope only small) number of people who might be paying this board a visit who take the:
lasercats wrote:but I like to root for the underdog.
approach.

And then you pull out the cannons and fire away. Rather than educating ..... rather than helping a newbie or a misguided veteran to see the light, you have instead created a martyr. A few other newbies see this. Some may react as you or I would and say "there is something wrong about the NAC, and that's a bad tournament". Some others, however say "that rotten, mean person just ganged up on that poor person, just because they had a difference of opinion. I'm with that other person."

Again, you or I may say "to hell with them .... let them go waste their time with Chipapalooza" ... but I hope you realize that this is not a luxury that you can take. You are a leader! One of your jobs is to deal with these folks, and that means sometimes needing to do it on their terms with their language. This does >>not<< mean compromising, or acknowledging untruths as "maybe having merit". It means sticking to facts, build your case ..... do so with out covering it in vitriol and acid. Stay strong, but not with the attitude that can come across as looking down your nose all the time.

I don't pretend to have the answers here .... I don't pretend to say I know more than you do. All I can do is provide a perspective that, in my opinion, you have difficulty seeing from time to time, and that may be interfering in your mission to rid the world of bad quizbowl and make it safe for good. When I first came here. I got attacked, because I was ignorant. Fortunately, I had the sense to realize sooner vs. later that I didn't have the facts on everything, and I stood there and took a lot of crap while I tried to sort through what were some good ideas being presented, and some opinions which may or may not be so factual, no matter what some people claim. But I also know that not everyone reacts as I do.

You cannot answer a curse with a curse ..... if you are trying to change someone's mind.

[

Matt, read this point carefully. There is some truth to it.
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Re: NAC Schedules

Post by STPickrell »

Tegan wrote:3. Matt W. is one of the biggest shills for the NAC.

...

You cannot answer a curse with a curse ..... if you are trying to change someone's mind.
I agree with these statement. So I will not write 3-4 paragraphs saying this. Not all who read this forum are convinced of the intrinsic betterness of pyramidal or even pyramidal-lite (e.g. my stuff for Missouri) questions.

On another note:

Has the blatant plagiarism from Chip ended since 2003? (i.e. copying verbatim from various online and offline sources that are not Chip.) I honestly don't know; it may have been mentioned amid the various anti-Chip points.
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Re: NAC Schedules

Post by AKKOLADE »

STPickrell wrote:Has the blatant plagiarism from Chip ended since 2003? (i.e. copying verbatim from various online and offline sources that are not Chip.) I honestly don't know; it may have been mentioned amid the various anti-Chip points.
We had that one case about a month ago where I took screenshots of CBI's page of questions from two years ago and QU's from weeks ago, which you can see here. Beyond that, I'm not too sure.
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Re: NAC Schedules

Post by First Chairman »

I am wondering if the recon team can do a quick plagiarism search to find the answers. Are we going to respectfully withhold the findings until after the Chicago phase?
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Re: NAC Schedules

Post by vcuEvan »

Questions are being reused - ModSquad

I'll make this point when I can cite examples.
Last edited by vcuEvan on Tue Jun 03, 2008 10:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: NAC Schedules

Post by pray for elves »

Adamantium Claws wrote:stuff
Someone needs to edit this post; questions are being reused at the next phase, apparently. After that, those of us who visited will post more about what we saw, I'd guess.
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Re: NAC Schedules

Post by Matt Weiner »

I guess I should note that I distinguish between "teams who don't know better and want to talk about why they attend a given tournament" and "staff members at the NAC, who seem to be familiar with HSNCT and NSC based on mentioning them in their posts, are members of collegiate quizbowl teams, and are endorsing the tournament not in a vacuum but in relation to the other options." We've seen which category Ms. Larkin falls into.
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Re: NAC Schedules

Post by Matt Weiner »

By the way, are we really at the point where the NAC is "the underdog?" Maybe I'm still stuck in a point of view from when I first got involved in quizbowl, but it always seemed that NAQT and PACE were fighting an uphill battle against this monolith. NAQT does have a larger overall field size now, but it seems that NAC is still entrenched in some areas and certain older coaches look at it NAQT as an upstart still; there is a very Chinese history/geologic time attitude to how long 10 years really is. PACE, same problems, more so. And when you look at it financially, I wonder who is bringing in more gross receipts for their entire quizbowl operation.
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Re: NAC Schedules

Post by kCobain911 »

Matt Weiner wrote:Hey, in case anyone is having trouble deciphering my apparently coded messages, let me just spell out that the NAC is completely unacceptable as quizbowl and you are either intellectually or morally deficient if you disagree. Especially if you are Maggie Larkin, Booker T. Washington High School Alum, Winner of 1st annual "Who Wants to Be a Game Show Host?" at NAC, who cannot defend the indefensible with argument and must instead resort to insults. Thus, she will get only insults in return.

No "breaks" will be deserved or given for people who continue to endorse the NAC.
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"NAC NOT WELCOME" or "COME AND GET INSULTED IF YOU LIKE NAC". etc, etc
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Re: NAC Schedules

Post by mujason »

Here's how to take down :chip: . Hold a NAQT and/or PACE tournament at the same time and location as the :chip: tournament; invite all the :chip: teams to play in it; since :chip: has a ridiculously large number of byes and only runs two rooms at a time, it should be easy enough to set up a simultaneous tournament schedule at the same hotel/convention center. Once they see the differences in price and question quality, they should be converted. Also, they could beat :chip: at his own game in bringing in game show hall of famers. Apparently :chip: has Brad Rutter and David Madden; NAQT can counter them by bringing in :kenj:, Larissa Kelly, Craig Barker, Kevin Olmstead, and several others. I think this can work.
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Re: NAC Schedules

Post by jenkster08 »

Matt Weiner wrote:This would be a good time to reiterate that, while math calculation tossups are inexcusable,
I've been lurking around this board for a while, and the closemindedness on this issue (and several others displayed on this topic) bothers me very much.

Why is math/science calculation inexcusable?

Is Math not an academic subject? More so than the "trash done to excess" surely.
Unless the definition of "quiz bowl" is a competition that tests the participants' knowledge of the humanities and social sciences, why should it exclude math?

As for, math is okay, but calculation math isn't, that math with Sieve of Erastothenes and naming the creator of the Law of Gravitation isn't math. That's history. Math history, where history is the noun and math is the adjective.

Plus, isn't quiz bowl supposed to be a team effort? I realize that many of the posters here are SUPERB quiz bowl players who dominate the humanities and social sciences (my hats off to you), but there's a reason there are 4 people on a team. If you seem to have trouble with math calculation speed, why condemn it as inexcusable in quiz bowl instead of finding a math person for your team?

These are the questions I have.

Sorry to interrupt your ... argument. (If I could still remember all 14 logical fallacies, I bet I could stick one to a lot of the posts (on both sides) of this topic.)
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Re: NAC Schedules

Post by Down and out in Quintana Roo »

That is way too much :chip: in one post for me. Too Chip, no read.
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Re: NAC Schedules

Post by Stained Diviner »

Jenkster--
There have been many computational threads on this board--there is one about every two to three months. While there are a lot of people here who are against all computational tossups, there is some disagreement on the topic. You can go through the archives if you want to see some of the pro and con arguments in detail.

Jason--
Bad idea. NAQT can't fit in one hotel, so they are not going to share a hotel. Hotels are expensive places to hold tournaments, so you'd have to charge teams hundreds of dollars to play matches during their byes, which they wouldn't want to pay.
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Re: NAC Schedules

Post by Matt Weiner »

jenkster08 wrote:I've been lurking around this board for a while, and the closemindedness on this issue (and several others displayed on this topic) bothers me very much.

Why is math/science calculation inexcusable?

Is Math not an academic subject? More so than the "trash done to excess" surely.
Unless the definition of "quiz bowl" is a competition that tests the participants' knowledge of the humanities and social sciences, why should it exclude math?

As for, math is okay, but calculation math isn't, that math with Sieve of Erastothenes and naming the creator of the Law of Gravitation isn't math. That's history. Math history, where history is the noun and math is the adjective.

Plus, isn't quiz bowl supposed to be a team effort? I realize that many of the posters here are SUPERB quiz bowl players who dominate the humanities and social sciences (my hats off to you), but there's a reason there are 4 people on a team. If you seem to have trouble with math calculation speed, why condemn it as inexcusable in quiz bowl instead of finding a math person for your team?

These are the questions I have.

Sorry to interrupt your ... argument. (If I could still remember all 14 logical fallacies, I bet I could stick one to a lot of the posts (on both sides) of this topic.)
Logical fallacies might include calling people "closeminded" before you start your discussion, or alleging that the only reason we dislike math calculation is because we are bad at it.

Math calculation is not an appropriate subject for quizbowl tossups because it is a test of speed and applied ability, not depth of knowledge and factual recall. No more or less than that.

Please consult one of the existing threads on math calculation and feel free to contribute to it, if you want to discuss further.
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Re: NAC Schedules

Post by jenkster08 »

If you took my "and the closemindedness on this issue" as an attack on you personally, then yes, I'd be guilty of ad hominem, but I was attaching label to the atmosphere of this board, which seems so unwelcoming to certain issues/formats.

As for the other offense, if it isn't true in anyone's case, I'm sorry. If it is (and you know yourself if it is), I stick to my guns.
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Re: NAC Schedules

Post by mujason »

Apparently six Chip pictures is too disorienting. Here's my idea again in plain text:

Here's how to take down Chip. Hold a NAQT and/or PACE tournament at the same time and location as the Chip tournament; invite all the Chip teams to play in it; since Chip has a ridiculously large number of byes and only runs two rooms at a time, it should be easy enough to set up a simultaneous tournament schedule at the same hotel/convention center. Once they see the differences in price and question quality, they should be converted. Also, they could beat Chip at his own game in bringing in game show hall of famers. Apparently Chip has Brad Rutter and David Madden; NAQT can counter them by bringing in Ken Jennings, Larissa Kelly, Craig Barker, Kevin Olmstead, and several others. I think this can work.

Also, if one wants a cheesy gimmick to compete with Chip, have the alternate tournament moderators dress up as Egyptian Pharaohs in order to stress the alternate tournament's PYRAMID questions.

Of course, Mr. Reinstein points out that a hotel would be expensive. I guess a nearby high school/college could work as well, as long as the schedule had plenty of fudge time between matches for transport, which could still work due to Chip's many byes.
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Re: NAC Schedules

Post by Matt Weiner »

jenkster08 wrote:If you took my "and the closemindedness on this issue" as an attack on you personally, then yes, I'd be guilty of ad hominem, but I was attaching label to the atmosphere of this board, which seems so unwelcoming to certain issues/formats.

As for the other offense, if it isn't true in anyone's case, I'm sorry. If it is (and you know yourself if it is), I stick to my guns.
I really am inviting you to continue discussing this in the existing threads about math calculation; I was not being sarcastic and would like to have a good discussion about this. Welcome to the board, by the way.
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Re: NAC Schedules

Post by jenkster08 »

Thanks, I'll go look more. I'd seen it in the past but only recently in that open letter to NAQT (I actually think math should not be pyramidal at all).
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Re: NAC Schedules

Post by Howard »

I'll try to keep this brief because I know similar arguments have been presented before.

Matt, there's no question you've contributed more to quizbowl, and good quizbowl, more than most quizbowl players will contribute in their entire lives. But I don't think posts like the ones you've made in this thread count toward that. If I were a newbie coming here (and I indeed once was), and you made similar posts regarding my support of a tournament, I'd think you were the one on crack. Why not make posts pointing to earlier threads discussing what's wrong with the NAC rather than just jumping in and attacking the poster. That'd at least help them understand and perhaps create a meaningful discussion. Hopefully, you haven't ruined your chances of Maggie at least e-mailing you after the completion of the tournament.

Maggie, I hope you continue to post in this forum. Even more, I hope you hop on over to the tourney announcements sections and then go to the tournaments in your area, either to play or help administer the tournament. I've met Matt, and I can attest he's a good person and that he cares very deeply about improving quizbowl. I say this knowing that he and I disagree on several issues he deems highly important. Hopefully, once the NAC has concluded, you will indeed e-mail him, and hopefully, he'll politely provide you with the facts he has. If you don't feel comfortable doing this after the antics in this thread, perhaps someone else here with firsthand experience with the NAC will offer to engage in a similar dialogue.

Edit: And Matt, props for going to the tournament and listening to questions with an open mind before drawing your conclusions.
Last edited by Howard on Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: NAC Schedules

Post by AKKOLADE »

Note: this is a serious post and not some attempt at sarcasm or whatever.

Can we get an argument from someone that gives reasons why NAC events are good? Every response so far in this thread that has been pro-Chip in tone has addressed the issue of politeness of Chip critics, but nothing that actually makes an argument that Chip runs good tournaments. If someone likes these events, please post a reasoned argument as to why they are of quality.

Apologies if I've overlooked such a post in this thread.
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Re: NAC Schedules

Post by scquizbowl »

Let's go back to what started this thread. There was an amazing amount of teams from the state of New York, with probably a third of the teams there from the New York area.

The questions were a bit better, but we were stuck with the obligatory Miley Cyrus song, the same music compositions which Chip has done for the last fifteen years, and the same pizzazz that has gone with the tournament for many seasons. :chip: also had his normal commentary between most of the questions during his matches.

Another thing that gets old is the way that the buzzers were done. We got gypped out of several questions because they had to say your school, then your name, and our new player waited for the school, but not his name, and he was marked non-responsive two or three times.

They didn't even say non-responsive, giving no warning to the teams involved.

Only playing seven matches over four days was also tougher, as you get less for the money at NAC compared to NAQT, where you play at least ten, usually 12-14 if you're any good.

The worst part of it was the way that the brackets were done. Our two coaches were told that they were going to announce the brackets at 10 PM, but after a couple computer malfunctions, Chip decided to wait until the morning, and we had to come back at 7:30 in the morning, with shirt and tie on, for the brackets to be announced, as we didn't know if we would play at 9 or 10:20.

Since our coach's philosophy was to watch games, we saw a good bit of the matches, and it seemed like half the teams had nicknames. NAQT, PACE, and Panasonic are now more prestigious than NAC, but hundreds of coaches still prefer NAC, because they grew up with it in the early 1990s, when it was the only national of choice. It still has the best readers, and many people think it is the most professional, because of how the tournament is organized.

Chip also had his bracket manipulation, so his stories could be brought up time and time again in matches. Ms. Larkin was a good reader, and I hope that she will become more important in the quiz bowl world as she gets older, maybe becoming a coach.
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Re: NAC Schedules

Post by Sir Thopas »

scquizbowl wrote:Since our coach's philosophy was to watch games, we saw a good bit of the matches, and it seemed like half the teams had nicknames. NAQT, PACE, and Panasonic are now more prestigious than NAC, but hundreds of coaches still prefer NAC, because they grew up with it in the early 1990s, when it was the only national of choice. It still has the best readers, and many people think it is the most professional, because of how the tournament is organized.
PACE's readers were, by and large, excellent on the whole. From what I remember of Mr. Egan's dispatch, the NAC's are less than decorous.
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Re: NAC Schedules

Post by Matt Weiner »

Yeah, the quality of the reading in terms of clarity has never been the problem with NAC, though I guess it's not that hard to get good moderators when you're only running 6 rooms at a time. I did notice that a few of the readers were prone to editorializing on the questions, which I found a waste of time and condescending to the teams. One of them even stopped in the middle of tossups on multiple occasions to give his opinions on the question's subject matter.

It was also very weird that even though an NAC game takes three pairs of hands to run (the computer with the questions on it, the scoresheet, and the electronic scoreboard control) the games I saw involved 2 rooms with only 2 staffers and 2 other rooms where one person was trying to control six things by himself and usually was not succeeding. How can Chip possibly have issues recruiting a full staff when he only needs 18 people, and 12 of them are just going to be adding numbers so they don't need to know anything about quizbowl?
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Re: NAC Schedules

Post by The Logic of Scientific Disco »

scquizbowl wrote: many people think it is the most professional, because of how the tournament is organized.
I find this kind of odd--NAQT puts on a much, much more impressive tournament now, given that they have something like 60-70 matches going at the same time on Saturday, essentially without any major tie-ups. And NAQT's leadership has always seemed professional, if a bit frazzled the day of the tournament (which is to be expected, given the magnitude of the operation they're running). Having never been to PACE, I can't comment on that, though running 24 simultaneous rooms and having even more involvement from the current quiz bowl community than NAQT has to help.

Those coaches who still favor Chip may be basing their opinions on NAQT 3-5 or even 8 years ago, and a lot has changed since then--I just wish they would give it a try.
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Re: NAC Schedules

Post by evilmonkey »

@ Fred - I think that, if Maggie can be brought back to the forum, she will give her reasons.

@ Everyone - I don't think anyone will be convinced, but she can legitimately hold her beliefs because...
styxman wrote: know that until you're shown specific examples of what good quizbowl is, with the proper arguments, it is really hard to argue against bad quizbowl. From what I've gathered, this is her first year out of high school, coming from a high school that I've never heard of outside of NAC. If she's never seen a pyramidal question, she can't be blamed for thinking NAC is passable. If she's never seen proper tournament directing, she can't be blamed for thinking Chip's means are fair.
As styxman says later, hopefully someone is talking this over with her, showing her the wiki articles and whatnot, and talking things over with her. Until that happens, give her the benefit of the doubt.

@ Matt - I know you and I disagree on this point, but I personally believe that attacks against people are never necessary, regardless of what the person knows or believes.

If you respond rationally to a person, either they'll get angry and flame you (at which point a tempban might be in order), they'll respectfully agree, at which point your job is finished, or they'll respectfully disagree, at which point you have an open discussion, which either leads to them agreeing, or disagreeing, and if they disagree I'd be willing to bet that they will eventually leave once it became clear that they weren't winning any converts.

If you respond angrily, insultingly, or so forth to a person, you automatically put them on the defensive. Productive conversations rarely come in these situations. Thus, the person will become MORE entrenched in the beliefs that you believe that they should not hold, thus defeating your entire purpose.

I know you get tired of making the same arguments over and over. If you feel so strongly that you don't need to be making the same argument again for a different person - DON'T. There are enough of us out here that support YOU, that you don't need to be the one making the argument for good quizbowl every time.

@ Jenkster, kCobain - I actually have a problem with you guys. Namely, I don't know who you are or what your affiliation with qbowl is. If you look at my signature, you can clearly see that I am Bryce Durgin from Notre Dame. We have the rule for a reason. I welcome you to the board - now follow the rules.

@ kCobain - It may seem like everyone is attacking only NAC. I would, however, like you to notice that the vast majority of the people in this thread are open to discussing NAC. If you look in the PACE and NAQT thread, you'll see only brief mentions of the good things about the tournaments. It stands to reason that we'd give NAC the same treatment.

@ Maggie - As I said above, I hope SOMEONE is talking to you about what we consider good quizbowl to be, and why we believe those things, and what specifically Chip has done (besides promote bad quizbowl) that we don't like. I played a lot of Chip in HS, and while it was better than lighting myself on fire, playing NAQT and PACE really brought out the contrast between those two and QU. If you are a friend of quizbowl, I welcome you. If you are a friend only to QU and NAC... I still welcome you, but you're in a for a rough time.

@ scquizbowl - You, good sir, win. I appreciate your report, as you gave things you thought were good, things you thought were bad, and reasons for each.
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Re: NAC Schedules

Post by Ben Dillon »

scquizbowl:
Another thing that gets old is the way that the buzzers were done. We got gypped out of several questions because they had to say your school, then your name, and our new player waited for the school, but not his name, and he was marked non-responsive two or three times.
Recognizing players goes back a good twenty-five years, and it presumably has game-show roots. It is stated in the NAC rules, with the caveat that it is the single biggest thing that has cost players points over the years. I've had the opposite happen at NAQT-style tournaments: players ruled too late because they were waiting to be recognized. The bottom line is that you follow the rules at a particular tournament and weigh in with your dissatisfaction later to the organizers so as to get the rule changed.

ChrisK.MIT:
NAQT puts on a much, much more impressive tournament now, given that they have something like 60-70 matches going at the same time on Saturday, essentially without any major tie-ups.
I believe this is largely due to better prior research on the questions/answers, so that the judges are making nowhere near as many judgment calls on the fly. For example, NAQT puts "Accept x... Do not accept y" notes. That way, it's easier to have people other than the question writer doing the reading.

scquizbowl:
Only playing seven matches over four days was also tougher, as you get less for the money at NAC compared to NAQT, where you play at least ten, usually 12-14 if you're any good.
I'll put in a plug for the more byes/fewer rooms format here. The argument will have some holes in it, I imagine.

Playing at NAQT was draining. Although we got to play a lot of matches, the constant thundering of tossup/bonus with no variety wore out my players. (Of course, it didn't help that we didn't win a lot. Nothing energizes players like success.)

In addition, there were at least two other Indiana teams that I would liked to have rooted for, plus several elite teams that I would have liked to see because they are things of beauty. I didn't get adequate chance to do this at NAQT because we were always playing, and it would have been difficult to locate them because of the card system. (Never mind that I probably wouldn't have been able to spectate because of the tiny rooms anyway.)

With more byes and fewer rooms, the matches are a little more player-friendly and a lot more spectator-friendly.

Not to say that NAC is the ideal on this. Three rooms is too few for a hundred teams, as the byes become way too far apart.

scquizbowl:
Chip also had his bracket manipulation, so his stories could be brought up time and time again in matches.
Did I miss you giving some evidence on this one? Chip's been set in a pattern of pairing by standard NCAA bracket seeding for a few years now. (Gone are the days since he paired Dorman versus Irmo in Round 1 of the playoffs because he wanted the TV rounds to be as geographically diverse as possible.)

leftsaidfred:
Can we get an argument from someone that gives reasons why NAC events are good? Every response so far in this thread that has been pro-Chip in tone has addressed the issue of politeness of Chip critics, but nothing that actually makes an argument that Chip runs good tournaments. If someone likes these events, please post a reasoned argument as to why they are of quality.
Aside from the obvious "oldest game in town" argument, since that's how St. Joe started in national quiz bowl (one brief diversion in 1994 to ASCN didn't grab us), the issue year to year comes down to two points:

(1) My players prefer the QU format over tossup/bonus because of the variety. Our league plays on it, and NAQT provides the questions in QU format. It provides for straight tossup rounds (NAQT, PACE do not), category rounds (NAQT does not, PACE does a worksheet, I believe), and stolen bonuses (NAQT does not, PACE does).

(2) My players pretty much demand the choice of weekends. My best player made the choice to bypass NAQT and Dallas NAC this year because it was the weekend before finals. In fact, we've never attended NAQT before because of this very reason. The only thing that made us attend it this year was that we had enough money to do two national tournaments as long as they were both in Chicago. If we had chosen only one tournament out of town, we might have chosen PACE. [Note: I was pleased as punch that they chose two, though, because I wanted to see NAQT for myself so as to better compare it to NAC.] I've gone on record before as saying that NAQT and/or PACE could make great inroads into NAC's share by doing the multiple-weekend-city thing.

Okay, maybe the above isn't an argument for quality at NAC :>

evilmonkey:
if Maggie can be brought back to the forum, she will give her reasons.
BTW, I'll try to talk to Maggie at Chicago this weekend to see just how traumatized she is by this board. I've taken my share of shots here about continuing to go to NAC and I'm still around, but she's not a teacher who's used to criticism :)
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Re: NAC Schedules

Post by PK6391 »

I'm on the edgemont team that got semis at DC, and I think the tournament was run awfully. Questions on miley cyrus and monty python, etc... There was maybe two total math and science questions each round, but at least 10 "identify the composer" audio questions, and a lot of the questions were just blatantly wrong. We even heard the exact same question twice (once in a playoff round), and one of the playoff questions had just been read in the JUNIOR high championship just half an hour ago. I'll also admit that Chip favored us a lot, although I don't think it ever changed the result of a round. For example, he would accept answers even if we weren't recognized, but he wouldn't for the other team.
As for the actual organization itself, it was even worse than the questions. First of all, when everyone was waiting at 10PM for the playoff brackets, someone came in at about 10:30 to tell us that brackets would be out the next morning. More outrageously, the guy told us that he had just slinked out of the room where they were making up the brackets to tell us to go to sleep because Chip had said, "let them congregate" when told that everyone was waiting. Also, for the people that arrived the day early, there was no food service, and being in Arlington VA made it nearly impossible to find food.
Anyway, we're now looking into the other national tournaments because of our experience. We had only gone to NAC because its a westchester thing to do, and we didn't know about the other tournaments. Can anyone give me a quick summary of the other national tournaments, and if there are any tournaments in NY that use those formats?
Thanks
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Re: NAC Schedules

Post by Howard »

evilmonkey wrote:@ Maggie - As I said above, I hope SOMEONE is talking to you about what we consider good quizbowl to be, and why we believe those things, and what specifically Chip has done (besides promote bad quizbowl) that we don't like. I played a lot of Chip in HS, and while it was better than lighting myself on fire, playing NAQT and PACE really brought out the contrast between those two and QU. If you are a friend of quizbowl, I welcome you. If you are a friend only to QU and NAC... I still welcome you, but you're in a for a rough time.
As someone who's an official in an ongoing tournament, I'm not so sure this is an appropriate discussion for her to have right now. Probably better to wait until after the tournament completes.

Edit: fixed quote tags
Last edited by Howard on Tue Jun 03, 2008 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: NAC Schedules

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Re: NAC Schedules

Post by AKKOLADE »

Howard wrote:As someone who's an official in an ongoing tournament, I'm not so sure this is an appropriate discussion for her to have right now. Probably better to wait until after the tournament completes.
We can wait. I'm not planning on going anywhere.
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Re: NAC Schedules

Post by Matt Weiner »

PK6391 wrote: Can anyone give me a quick summary of the other national tournaments, and if there are any tournaments in NY that use those formats?
Thanks
Someone else please correct me if I am not being objective:

*NAQT featured 176 teams this year, on Memorial Day weekend in Chicago, and will likely happen in the same time/place again. You play 10 power-matched prelim games (each round is against a team with the same record as yours). All teams with winning records on Saturday go to double-elimination playoffs on Sunday. The games are on a clock, 18 minutes long, and use up to 26 tossups with 30-point bonuses. You qualify for NAQT primarily by placing highly at local tournaments held on NAQT questions, of which there were at least 2 in the NYC/NJ area that I can think of, and probably more.

*NSC featured 48 teams this year, the weekend after Memorial Day in the Washington, DC area, and will definitely happen in the same time/place again. You play 7 bracketed prelim games on Saturday. The top 2 from each bracket qualify for two playoff brackets of 6 on Sunday morning. You play the other 5 teams in your playoff bracket, and the top 2 from each bracket go to a final-four single-elim championship. The games are 28 tossups long, divided into a phase of 10 tossups with related 20-point bonuses, 8 tossups with 15-point bonuses that you choose the category of after getting a tossup, an 10 tossups with unrelated 30-point bonuses. You qualify for NSC by placing highly at "affiliated" tournaments, of which there are also some in your area, or by submitting a wild-card application that shows a strong general performance for your team over the course of the year.

Note: NSC *may* expand the field to 60 or 64 teams next year, in which case the tournament format will change.

Differences that both NAQT and NSC have when compared to NAC: no audio/visual questions. Pyramidal tossups. Better focus on academic subjects and avoidance of trivia or open-ended questions. Much stronger fields and fewer byes/periods of standing around doing nothing. Few if any questions about plagiarism, match-fixing, or other ethical shortfalls of the NAC.

Differences between NAQT and NSC: Different game formats. Different tournament formats. NAQT has lots of pop culture questions and has math calculation tossups; NSC does not. You play more games at NAQT (though the PACE format *may* change such that this is not the case next year). NAQT is on the clock; NSC uses a fixed number of questions per game. NSC uses bouncebacks on bonus parts, NAQT does not. NAQT is held at a hotel, NSC at a college campus.

Of the top 25 or so teams in the country, about 20 of them will go to either NAQT or NSC or both in a given year, as opposed to 0 to 2 of them playing NAC.

I'm glad you have discovered this board and seem interested in the next level of quizbowl. Let us know if you need any more information.
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Re: NAC Schedules

Post by AKKOLADE »

PK6391 wrote:Long post I'm cutting in favor of space
Welcome to the board.

Check Greg's and Matt's posts up above for info on the other two nationals, NAQT and PACE. Those carry a lot more respect with them and I recommend both as nationals to attend. If there's any other information you need, send me an e-mail (fredmorlanatgmaildotcom) and I'll be happy to point you towards resources.
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Re: NAC Schedules

Post by Quantum Mushroom Billiard Hat »

Again, welcome to the boards.

Sample PACE Nationals questions can be found at http://quizbowlpackets.com/.
Regular season PACE sets are linked from this post: viewtopic.php?p=81065#p81065
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Re: NAC Schedules

Post by Ondes Martenot »

Can anyone give me a quick summary of the other national tournaments, and if there are any tournaments in NY that use those formats?
LIFT (Long Island Fall Tournament) runs in Kellenberg High School with a large field that tends to draw a lot of good teams-NAQT format. Rutgers and Princeton also run NAQT tournaments in the fall. Hunter ran a tournament with ACF style questions and was a PACE qualifier. Seton Hall sometimes runs an NAQT tournament. And of course, there is the NAQT New York state championship sometime towards the latter part of the season. Chatham runs a very effficient NAQT tournament a week before NAQT HSNCT

Seriously, there's so much good quizbowl/tournaments around the area that your team shouldn't have to deal with :chip: and his merry men.
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Re: NAC Schedules

Post by Blackboard Monitor Vimes »

Ben Dillon wrote:
In addition, there were at least two other Indiana teams that I would liked to have rooted for, plus several elite teams that I would have liked to see because they are things of beauty. I didn't get adequate chance to do this at NAQT because we were always playing, and it would have been difficult to locate them because of the card system. (Never mind that I probably wouldn't have been able to spectate because of the tiny rooms anyway.)

With more byes and fewer rooms, the matches are a little more player-friendly and a lot more spectator-friendly.


(1) My players prefer the QU format over tossup/bonus because of the variety. Our league plays on it, and NAQT provides the questions in QU format. It provides for straight tossup rounds (NAQT, PACE do not), category rounds (NAQT does not, PACE does a worksheet, I believe), and stolen bonuses (NAQT does not, PACE does).
Edited for commenting purposes...

First of all, in terms of wanting to watch people, if you want to see great teams play each other, hang around the play-offs. NAQT's consolation system was convenient for this purpose in that you could play if you wanted to but were not forced to (mind you, I never have an issue with continuing to play, but I know a lot of people who do).

I added the emphasis on "spectator-friendly" because that struck me as a bit absurd. Quizbowl is (or should be) structured first and foremost to play, not to watch. Important rounds (such as semifinals and finals) are often played at times and in locations that facilitate spectators.

As for PACE format, there is no worksheet involved. I've been to tournaments that had variants to shorten game length, but PACE NSC uses 10 TU with related 20 point bonuses (usually only related in terms of coming from the same part of the distribution), 8 TU with one part, 15 point category bonuses, and 10 stretch round TU with 20 point powers before the syllable after "FTP" and 30 point bonuses. Thus, based on what you said, I believe your team would enjoy PACE.
Sam (Angelo) Luongo,
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Re: NAC Schedules

Post by STPickrell »

leftsaidfred wrote:
STPickrell wrote:Has the blatant plagiarism from Chip ended since 2003? (i.e. copying verbatim from various online and offline sources that are not Chip.) I honestly don't know; it may have been mentioned amid the various anti-Chip points.
We had that one case about a month ago where I took screenshots of CBI's page of questions from two years ago and QU's from weeks ago, which you can see here. Beyond that, I'm not too sure.
This is not good. I remember those screenshots now. I am sure further examples will be unearthed.
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Re: NAC Schedules

Post by Sir Thopas »

STPickrell wrote:This is not good. I remember those screenshots now. I am sure further examples will be unearthed.
Chip's tournament wrap-up wrote:The 20-point gains included St. Mark's solving of a geometry problem; Cooper's recognition of a Goya painting; Cooper's identification of Hawaii as the only state name that, when spelled officially, includes a diacritical mark; and St. Mark's identification of Yucca Mountain as the site more studied by geologists than any other place in the world.
Final Jeopardy, 2/11/08 wrote:It's the only state name that when spelled officially contains a diacritical mark
Guy Tabachnick
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Re: NAC Schedules

Post by lasercats »

scquizbowl wrote:Let's go back to what started this thread. There was an amazing amount of teams from the state of New York, with probably a third of the teams there from the New York area.

The questions were a bit better, but we were stuck with the obligatory Miley Cyrus song, the same music compositions which Chip has done for the last fifteen years, and the same pizzazz that has gone with the tournament for many seasons. :chip: also had his normal commentary between most of the questions during his matches.

Another thing that gets old is the way that the buzzers were done. We got gypped out of several questions because they had to say your school, then your name, and our new player waited for the school, but not his name, and he was marked non-responsive two or three times.

They didn't even say non-responsive, giving no warning to the teams involved.

Only playing seven matches over four days was also tougher, as you get less for the money at NAC compared to NAQT, where you play at least ten, usually 12-14 if you're any good.

The worst part of it was the way that the brackets were done. Our two coaches were told that they were going to announce the brackets at 10 PM, but after a couple computer malfunctions, Chip decided to wait until the morning, and we had to come back at 7:30 in the morning, with shirt and tie on, for the brackets to be announced, as we didn't know if we would play at 9 or 10:20.

Since our coach's philosophy was to watch games, we saw a good bit of the matches, and it seemed like half the teams had nicknames. NAQT, PACE, and Panasonic are now more prestigious than NAC, but hundreds of coaches still prefer NAC, because they grew up with it in the early 1990s, when it was the only national of choice. It still has the best readers, and many people think it is the most professional, because of how the tournament is organized.

Chip also had his bracket manipulation, so his stories could be brought up time and time again in matches. Ms. Larkin was a good reader, and I hope that she will become more important in the quiz bowl world as she gets older, maybe becoming a coach.

I cannot express how much I appreciate this post.

To explain and reply to some of your problems with the tournament:
*The computer malfunction was because one person's laptop was vista, and therefore incompatible with Tanya's wonderfully-designed program. It was intended that this computer be compiling scores from friday to have them ready to recieve saturday scores so that we could have the brackets quicker. Because this computer was incompatible, she had to input all the scores manually, and this took literally all night.
I wish that each team could play more, but that would require even more rooms, more days and judges, and a higher entry fee. Six matches in two days is good, but I wish it could be more. I think the questions were better than last year, but I also saw every question of every round, so I have more available to me for comparison.
I appreciate your compliments to my reading style. I loved the experience, and it was my first time reading outside of team practices. It was also my first time with the computer program, so that took a little while to get used to. I agree that I have a knack for it and would love to work for PACE/NAQT as well, if I ever get any offers.
Maggie Larkin
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Re: NAC Schedules

Post by Ondes Martenot »

Six matches in two days is good
Not really.....
Aaron Cohen, Bergen County Academies '08, RPI '12, NYU-???, NAQT writer, HSAPQ writer, PACE writer
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Re: NAC Schedules

Post by cdcarter »

lasercats wrote:I wish that each team could play more, but that would require even more rooms, more days and judges, and a higher entry fee. Six matches in two days is good, but I wish it could be more. I think the questions were better than last year, but I also saw every question of every round, so I have more available to me for comparison.
Six games in two days is not good. Like people at PACE were complaining about only 14 games in two days
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Re: NAC Schedules

Post by theMoMA »

As one of the few remaining college players who has played the NAC, I actually encountered this board in much the same way as many people who have been "scared away" by the anti-Chip rhetoric. For me, it was one of the factors that inspired me to get into good quizbowl; seeing that my NAC accomplishments meant nothing to a large group of dedicated people made me want to prove myself even more. I honestly can't understand how people wouldn't feel this way.

I understand that there is a strong initial natural urge to defend yourself when your accomplishments are first called into question, and I think we need to stop confusing this with rabidly supporting Chip in some cases. In those cases, we should do a better job of kindly referring newer users to reference material on Chip. But continuing to hide behind bad arguments to support Chip's inferior and frankly immoral product is wrong. We should rightfully call out those who do this, no pleasantries involved.

I'm pretty tired of people with the attitude that the rest of quizbowl needs to explain itself to them. We don't need a drawn-out argument every time a new person needs convincing. In the future, I hope we do a kinder job of referring people our documentation of the various shortcomings and malfeasances of Chip. But once someone is versed in that information, it does become a matter of right and wrong. While I think that Matt jumped the gun in this particular case (I will give Maggie the benefit of the doubt; she probably doesn't know the lowdown on Chip), I would caution anyone from drawing the conclusion that any one opinion is just as valid as any other.
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