2008 QU NAC: B. T. Washington (OK) wins!

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Re: NAC Schedules

Post by jbarnes112358 »

Stat74 wrote:
If this semantics game continues, I will be actively looking for a way for us to divorce the "college money" from "go to Chip nationals" that comes with the TV tournament.
I don't understand. Are you contractually obliged to attend NAC? Can you refuse to go? Why can't the money be used for a real national championship tournament trip instead of NAC? Good luck trying to get this fixed.

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Re: NAC Schedules

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Stat74 wrote:I agree.

In an entertaining addendum: when we were in Chip's room, he congratulated us on finishing 2nd in the Junior Nationals two weeks ago. He called his tournament the "Senior Division".
The HELL you say. Thats ridiculous - for Chip Beall to call NAQT "Junior Nationals". Why, it makes my blood boil. I really, really, really, don't like that man. (And I know it wasn't HIS Jr. Nats, because those were only a week ago, and Charter wasn't in them).
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Re: NAC Schedules

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Stat74 wrote:Live blog:

Charter has played one round, and I've already protested twice, equal to about the number of times I protested through the entire HSNCT and NSC.

"Jonathan" was not OK for a literary chracter named "Jonathan Livingston", a question that did not ask for the last name.

"Polar graphs" was not OK for "polar curves".

Our lightning round was 'splendid'. All the answers rhymed with that word and the category was appropriate for the middle school tournament I write.

I am already more mad than I care to be, and we won 405-225.

If this semantics game continues, I will be actively looking for a way for us to divorce the "college money" from "go to Chip nationals" that comes with the TV tournament.

And our moderator for this round? The esteemed winner of who wants to be a game show host. Her response for denying my protests is "that what's on the paper".

More fun to follow!

I was at the rounds from 1:00 through the 3:30 sessoin, at which point I'd had more than enough Chip-tastica. This did include the two Wilmington Charter contest, and I can vouch for the consternation (and the justification for such) by the team's coach.

Here are my notes (and I'm assuming it's okay now to chat about questions on the main forum because they're not going to be reused, assuming there isn't somebody desperate enough to use the NAC questions for a "mirror" tournament):

I passed right by Mr. Laudermith as I was entering the Holiday Inn, bedrenched with sweat even from the short walk from the Cumberland CTA station to the hotel, but I don't think he noticed me.

1:00 round: The entire list of cheeses in the Monty Python "Cheese Shop" sketch was listed as the clue.

A blatant swerve in stating that chimpanzees and bonobos shared a common ancestor in the first sentence, and the in the second sentence, asked what river separated the two (or something like that). Uhh, yeah. [EDIT: because this sentence didn't come out quite right the first time around]

A blatant hose on the Apostle's Creed question--"Give the name IN LATIN" (Credo). :chip: :party: :party: :party:

1:30 round: Concur with what was mentioned in the previous post.

You know, if you're smrt enough to know the ten words in the English language that rhyme with splendid, I say that pack of choco cigarettes is -well- earned.

The 60 seconds category for the other team was equally as lame--"Modern Language", with the initials for each two-word phrase given as the clue.


2:00 session, in Chip's room, St. Thomas from Minnesota v. Mannheim Township:


Actual question: "Define conscription".

Chip rattled off the, um, impressive history of both the schools in the NAC prior to the game. Chip also soliliquyed prior to the fourth quarter about how he was at Texas Stadium in 1977 to see the Denver Broncos and the Dallas Cowboys and how that was a rematch to the eventual Super Bowl, and how perhaps this game would be a rematch to a potential NAC final.

There was some question in the warmup round which stumped both teams, and so he prompted the audience, and somebody got it.

Now, actually, I don't mind that so much, except the policy about prompting audience participation is not well-defined, as on the next question, some coach just sitting in had a question about the audio tossup (whether "bass" would be accepted for "Double Bass") and Chip advised that that's an audience no-no, though at the end of the period he did confirm "Bass" would have been accepted.

And I'm sure the Wilmington Charter peeps will be most pleased to know that Chip accepted "Quantum Physics" for a question whose given answer was "Quantum Mechanics." :chip: :party: :party: :party:

Holy bad question, Batman: "What is the traditional English spelling of 'Medieval'"?

........significa, not trivia..........


Holy lazy question, Batman: "What is the official langage of the Sudan?"

2:30 round: Holman A-Center Grove

On the 60 second round, the category was "Country where the film was set", and a team gave "Italy" for "Gladiator", and that was ruled incorrect. The other team on the bounceback, confused by the illogic, gave "Greece", and that was incorrect as well. "Roman Empire" was the given answer, but ......... well, who knows.

3:00 round: Hamilton SE (which is apparently a north suburb of Indianapolis) vs. Plano

Leadin to question in the Stump the Expr3ts round: "Which wacky world leader...."

:chip: :chip: :chip: :chip: :chip: :chip: :chip: :chip: :chip: :chip: :chip: :chip: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party:

EDIT: FWIW the answer was "Ahmadinejad". The mod. in Superior C (was that Brick Barrientos?) commented, upon one of the teams guessing incorrectly on, I think "Fidel Castro" or some such, that it was in fact "The other wacky world leader".

3:30 round: Mannheim Township v. Wilmington Charter

(in which "Township" won 320-305 on getting the last tossup of the match...)

I don't have any notes on this one because it was actually pretty well-played, and Mannheim is a solid team that, on a very cursory glance, I think could get at least into the playoff elimination rounds at the HSNCT.

And the questions, in and of themselves, were probably the best of the six rounds that I witnessed this afternoon--but even still, far too many "buzzer-race" type showdowns on essentially one-clue questions.

But this game shows the inherent flaws of the Four Quarter system much more explicitly than any other I observed.

Witness the 60 second round, in which the categories were New York (I forget if it was explicitly just "New York" or "New York City"), Texas, Hawaii, and Mystery Category.

Mannheim Township, down 120-105 after the bonus rounds, has first choice, and they take New York, and it's basically 10 questions about "In which Borough...". MT gets 80, and WC gets 10 on the bounceback.


Now, basically, the point at which match was decided was when WC went for "Mystery Category", instead of Texas or Hawaii. It's one thing for a game-show to be decided on the mercurial aspect of category choice by a contestant. It's another thing for a Quiz Bowl match to be decided on such a choice, insofar as the legitimate Quiz Bowl world has evolved far beyond Game Show luck-of-the-draw aspects.

So the "Mystery Category" is "The Year 2007". It was much tougher than the layup-drill that the Five Boroughs category was for Mannheim Township, and Charter only got 50, and I think MT got 20 on bounceback.

So that's a 40 point swing, totally due to luck-of-the-draw, in a format where trying to -minimize- and not -enhance- the luck-of-the-draw aspect is a very central issue, in a game decided by 15 points.

And so the match ended, MT won, and I was left wondering, "Exactly how does this 320 for Mannheim Township and 305 for Wilmington Charter assess, with anything close to what would be an acceptable degree of accuracy to those experienced with Good Quizbowl, really how good MT and WC are as teams??"

This is not to take away from Mannheim Township, and their own players, whom I'm sure have put in much work themselves. I just wonder, from a game theory standpoint, that if WC had tanked a 10 point question (and let MT score) in the Warmup Round, they would have trailed going into the 60 seconds round, and almost for sure would have chosen for themselves the New York category, and would have gotten at least 80, maybe 90 on it.

Just from a game theory standpoint, and not even considering the quality or lack thereof of the questions, the design of the four quarters format is simply, undeniably, and ultimately confusing and bizarre.
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Re: NAC Schedules

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?????
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Re: NAC Schedules

Post by jbarnes112358 »

Stat74 wrote:
In an entertaining addendum: when we were in Chip's room, he congratulated us on finishing 2nd in the Junior Nationals two weeks ago. He called his tournament the "Senior Division".
Entertaining? Outrageous might be a better way to put it. I have little doubt that you have the best quizbowl team there. But, I suspect you will finish below your finish at NAQT HSNCT just so Chip can "prove" his point regarding his tournament being the "senior division".

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Re: NAC Schedules

Post by JackGlerum »

I don't know much about :chip: or :chip: 's tournament other than reading the wiki article, but if everyone hates it so much, what types of teams go? Bad ones? Trophy-whores? Friends of Chip?

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Re: NAC Schedules

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JohnGlerum wrote:I don't know much about :chip: or :chip: 's tournament other than reading the wiki article, but if everyone hates it so much, what types of teams go? Bad ones? Trophy-whores? Friends of Chip?
Those are three main categories, plus those that just don't know better (e.g. the team that Weiner saw in DC that had no idea how to play quiz bowl and asked for instructions before the game).
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Re: NAC Schedules

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MLaudermith wrote:I'll wrap up by saying that one coach noticed me taking notes as Chip conducted a match. He leaned over and asked if I was Matt Weiner. Ask me nicely, and I'll tell you my reply.
I was going to do some serious responses to this, but upon seeing this I lost the ability to think straight and just started laughing as hard as I could. Please finish this story so we can know if there's a sum of cash out on Weiner's head.
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Re: NAC Schedules

Post by Matt Weiner »

Yeah, did he think Charter was at JR NAC, or what?
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Re: NAC Schedules

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MLaudermith wrote:"Where did Martin Luther post his 95 Theses?"
"On the church door."
"I'll take it."
HAHAHAHA! That's awesome.
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Re: NAC Schedules

Post by Down and out in Quintana Roo »

MLaudermith wrote:E. Why bother having a bonus round? In the 7 rounds I saw, an average of 2 bonuses were read in each match (with only one sweep). All the bonus questions seemed to do was slow the match down. I can't be certain, but they didn't seem to have much bearing on the final scores.
We play against Charter (and a couple dozen other Delaware teams) every year in the Comcast Academic Challenge, which awards its winner with a "trip to the national championship." Charter has won six years in a row now. We got 6th last year, and 5th this year (basically the same thing, actually, eliminated at the same time).

Anyway. I like the bonus round a decent amount, far more than the annoying lightning round. Usually in the bonus round (it's still round 2 in NAC, right?) good teams put subpar teams away. In Charter matches in Delaware, usually after the bonus round they have amassed 200 points and it's essentially over since no team can compete with them in Delaware. I always tell my kids that it's SO important to get as many of the bonus categories as possible, since going into the lighting round you either want to be down by 5 (to choose the category) or up by a ton.
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Re: NAC Schedules

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Caesar Rodney HS wrote:
MLaudermith wrote:E. Why bother having a bonus round? In the 7 rounds I saw, an average of 2 bonuses were read in each match (with only one sweep). All the bonus questions seemed to do was slow the match down. I can't be certain, but they didn't seem to have much bearing on the final scores.
We play against Charter (and a couple dozen other Delaware teams) every year in the Comcast Academic Challenge, which awards its winner with a "trip to the national championship." Charter has won six years in a row now. We got 6th last year, and 5th this year (basically the same thing, actually, eliminated at the same time).

Anyway. I like the bonus round a decent amount, far more than the annoying lightning round. Usually in the bonus round (it's still round 2 in NAC, right?) good teams put subpar teams away. In Charter matches in Delaware, usually after the bonus round they have amassed 200 points and it's essentially over since no team can compete with them in Delaware. I always tell my kids that it's SO important to get as many of the bonus categories as possible, since going into the lighting round you either want to be down by 5 (to choose the category) or up by a ton.

Agreed, and you stated probably better than I did the game-theory crux of playing this 4-quarters format the way it currently stands.

The basic point being, if you're involved in a game of skill, and not just simply luck and happenstance, and you're better off tanking than playing all-out and taking whatever may come, then it's just not a very well-conceived game.
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Re: NAC Schedules

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Stat74 wrote:I very much would like to discuss how to prove that Chip's schedules can't be random. The teams that we've played so far all have winning records. One year all four of our opponents were also in the playoffs with us. Another year, by the time we got to quarters we had played five of the other teams in quarters with us. Last year, we played four playoff teams out of six prelims. This can't be random.
It isn't and he admits it! When teams register, he allows for teams to request dates to play (such as: we're sightseeing on Saturday, put all of our rounds on Sunday). I'm not sure it is possible (short of admission) to say that he actually fixes placement, but if he claims that all match ups are random, he already admits that they are not.
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Re: NAC Schedules

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Stat74 wrote: In an entertaining addendum: when we were in Chip's room, he congratulated us on finishing 2nd in the Junior Nationals two weeks ago. He called his tournament the "Senior Division".
This just proves a point: the man has no sense of class. His best way to advertise (please examine his website) is to put up quotes that are attempts to put down other tournaments ..... because trying to build up his own tournament clearly no longer works.

If the folks at Wilmington Charter said nothing in response to his face, I applaud that as a genuine act of classiness. He deserved to be put in his place.

I might have been tempted to stop him and advise him that issuing insults to others or other tournaments, especially an insult at my own team's accomplishment in so public a venue is not a good way to demonstrate adult leadership or classiness. Leave it at that.

editing: I'll go one step further: I would explain this little story to the folks who run this Comcast thing in Delaware. Ask them if they wish to continue sending high school students and their coaches to a tournament where the officials may continue to insult them and their academic accomplishments. I would be curious if Comcast wants to be associated with people who act in such a way.

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Re: NAC Schedules

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Stat74 wrote:I agree.

In an entertaining addendum: when we were in Chip's room, he congratulated us on finishing 2nd in the Junior Nationals two weeks ago. He called his tournament the "Senior Division".

Wow, wow, wow. That makes me wish I would have stayed around for your 3rd game.


I would have -loooooooooooooved- to call out the Chipster on how he considers NAQT a "Junior Tournament" to the "N""A""C".
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Re: NAC Schedules

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Tegan wrote:
Stat74 wrote: In an entertaining addendum: when we were in Chip's room, he congratulated us on finishing 2nd in the Junior Nationals two weeks ago. He called his tournament the "Senior Division".
This just proves a point: the man has no sense of class. His best way to advertise (please examine his website) is to put up quotes that are attempts to put down other tournaments ..... because trying to build up his own tournament clearly no longer works.

If the folks at Wilmington Charter said nothing in response to his face, I applaud that as a genuine act of classiness. He deserved to be put in his place.

I might have been tempted to stop him and advise him that issuing insults to others or other tournaments, especially an insult at my own team's accomplishment in so public a venue is not a good way to demonstrate adult leadership or classiness. Leave it at that.

editing: I'll go one step further: I would explain this little story to the folks who run this Comcast thing in Delaware. Ask them if they wish to continue sending high school students and their coaches to a tournament where the officials may continue to insult them and their academic accomplishments. I would be curious if Comcast wants to be associated with people who act in such a way.
I think you're absolutely right. They need to be called out.



On the other hand:







It's Comcast they're dealing with. :roll:

*sigh*
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Re: NAC Schedules

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If it was clear to me that he was referring to NAQT and not confusing the school with someone who played at JR NAC, I certainly would have told him to go fuck himself and dared him to forfeit the game. But, that's only one of many reasons why I don't coach high school quizbowl.
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Re: NAC Schedules

Post by Down and out in Quintana Roo »

Comcast is cool to us. They really dish out a lot of money to the winners ($5000 for first, down to $300 for 5th/6th) so we can't complain to them TOO much. The questions... eh. We had a player this year who said he played in a Chip-style tournament as a freshman in New York last year, and he heard some "exact same" questions while he played.

That being said, Comcast is definitely the most annoying tournament that we play each year (Charter can likely attest), but it's the only one that promoted in the state (that non-quizbowl people know about, that is)... or really, the only one that anyone not in the quizbowl community (like newspapers, etc.) know exists, therefore it is "important." That and the playoff matches are broadcast on cable access TV.
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Re: NAC Schedules

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Matt Weiner wrote:If it was clear to me that he was referring to NAQT and not confusing the school with someone who played at JR NAC, I certainly would have told him to go fuck himself and dared him to forfeit the game. But, that's only one of many reasons why I don't coach high school quizbowl.

I think it was a pretty clear and obvious swipe at NAQT that :chip: made there.

And if I were the coach there, I would have pulled my team, forfeited, whatever, thank you very much.

Unsportsmanlike conduct on the part of the tournament director? Unacceptable.

It would never happen in PACE or NAQT's national tournaments (or even other regional tournaments, like even Quizbusters, the high school quiz program in the Lansing, MI area since 1989, which has for the last several years used NAQT questions) that, say, a tournament director would call out a team that had finished very highly in a competing tournament, by saying they placed second in the "Junior Nationals".

I was willing, up until today, when I actually had a chance to witness a series of NAC matches first hand, to give at the very least a "benefit of the doubt" to Chip's Chipapalooza, but that's over.

Chip needs to be put out of business, plain and simple, or at least, reduced to selling questions to bars and taverns for local "bar quiz nights".

Which I'm pretty sure he'll do, if he's reduced to having to do that.
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Re: NAC Schedules

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Caesar Rodney HS wrote:Comcast is cool to us. They really dish out a lot of money to the winners ($5000 for first, down to $300 for 5th/6th) so we can't complain to them TOO much. The questions... eh. We had a player this year who said he played in a Chip-style tournament as a freshman in New York last year, and he heard some "exact same" questions while he played.

That being said, Comcast is definitely the most annoying tournament that we play each year (Charter can likely attest), but it's the only one that promoted in the state (that non-quizbowl people know about, that is)... or really, the only one that anyone not in the quizbowl community (like newspapers, etc.) know exists, therefore it is "important." That and the playoff matches are broadcast on cable access TV.

Well, it's an inherently incremental process to root out "Bad Quiz Bowl" in favor of "Good Quiz Bowl", but my own recommendation would be to ask the local Comcast contact person why they use Questions Unlimited, as opposed to NAQT or PACE or whatever.

There's simply not a good answer the local Comcast contact person can come up with, but the process must be done delicately, and diplomatically, and without any kind of inflammatory rhetoric besides the facts.
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Re: NAC Schedules

Post by Down and out in Quintana Roo »

Bill definitely has the pull to ask something like that and get a real answer.

Any other coach probably wouldn't. Doesn't mean your suggestion isn't a good one though. I suppose i could give it a try, but the answer will likely be "because we have been for 20 years" or something.
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Re: NAC Schedules

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I think I'm the only Manheim Township person who reads these boards... yes, it's appalling that my alma mater continues to attend the Chip show. It's not just one team, either, it's the entire county, so they can claim they need to go to the NAC to play their local rivals. It depresses me that the success enjoyed by Township teams in 1994 and 1995 when Chip had some measure of legitimacy has helped to create a decade-long quizbowl desert.

I would be interested to hear more about the history of Chip's favoritism towards Township teams. Offhand I can't think of an example before the infamous Grand Junction scandal of 2000, but I might not have noticed such things when I was playing.

More information on the mechanisms of Chip's favoritism would be helpful too. Use and abuse of the "mystery" category springs immediately to mind. Does the NAC have a visible clock now? When I last played in it, which was more than a decade ago, there was no visible clock and the match ended when one of the staff blew a train whistle. This seems potentially open to abuse...

I wonder if there's a relationship between Chip's patterns of favoritism and the geographic concentration of his remaining supporters? Something on the model of Chip writing questions to cater to his favorite customers, who then have incentive to return because high doses of local current events and such give them an artificial boost in relation to the rest of the field?

Also: the standard advice dispensed to Manheim Township teams attending the NAC has been "never take the mystery category" (for fear that it would be computational math or something else entirely unreasonable). If I remember that saying ten years later, I'm sure by now Chip has heard the same and had that script in his jacket pocket...
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Re: NAC Schedules

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bt_green_warbler wrote:Does the NAC have a visible clock now? When I last played in it, which was more than a decade ago, there was no visible clock and the match ended when one of the staff blew a train whistle. This seems potentially open to abuse...
It's a fixed number of questions now. They do not read the question number before each tossup, so it's up to the teams to track how close they are to the end of the match, but it can be done.
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Re: NAC Schedules

Post by MLaudermith »

Sorry for the delay. I was out visiting Grandma and the folks.
MLaudermith wrote:I'll wrap up by saying that one coach noticed me taking notes as Chip conducted a match. He leaned over and asked if I was Matt Weiner. Ask me nicely, and I'll tell you my reply.
Anyway, after the gentleman asked if I was Matt Weiner, I replied, "Yes, and which of Chip's pea-brained cronies might you be?"
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Re: NAC Schedules

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MLaudermith wrote:
MLaudermith wrote:I'll wrap up by saying that one coach noticed me taking notes as Chip conducted a match. He leaned over and asked if I was Matt Weiner.
Anyway, after the gentleman asked if I was Matt Weiner, I replied, "Yes, and which of Chip's pea-brained cronies might you be?"
"You can't talk to me like that!"
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Re: NAC Schedules

Post by Mike Bentley »

In regards to the "junior national championship" tournament 2 weeks ago, it's pretty clear that Chip was referring to the HSNCT as his junior "national championship" was last week.

I agree with Jeff that it is unfortunate that certain geographic areas are essentially wastelands of Chip teams. There are some quality teams in, say, Pennsylvania and New York who could be at least playoff material at the HSNCT who are stuck playing Chip. I do think that his grasp on these areas is slightly eroding, though. As more teams attend the HSNCT (and NSC) as compared to the NAC, his tournaments start to look less legitimiate even if the teams at the NAC don't know or care about the difference in question quality. The spread of pyramidal tournaments to places like Temple or Hunter are hopefully providing an oppurtunity for Chip only teams to at least hear about other formats.
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Re: NAC Schedules

Post by Buzz Buzzard »

Bentley Like Beckham wrote:In regards to the "junior national championship" tournament 2 weeks ago, it's pretty clear that Chip was referring to the HSNCT as his junior "national championship" was last week.

I agree with Jeff that it is unfortunate that certain geographic areas are essentially wastelands of Chip teams. There are some quality teams in, say, Pennsylvania and New York who could be at least playoff material at the HSNCT who are stuck playing Chip. I do think that his grasp on these areas is slightly eroding, though. As more teams attend the HSNCT (and NSC) as compared to the NAC, his tournaments start to look less legitimiate even if the teams at the NAC don't know or care about the difference in question quality. The spread of pyramidal tournaments to places like Temple or Hunter are hopefully providing an oppurtunity for Chip only teams to at least hear about other formats.

And the one team from Michigan in any of the NAC brackets, Sandusky being a smallish town and school located in the thumb of Michigan, the thumb of Michigan not really noted for being in any way a powerhouse in any kind of academic competition outside of Senator Dan Degrow's district quiz bowl whatever-you-want-to-call-it-thingy.

A squad, I'm presuming, that, never mind the NAQT-playoff teams in Detroit Catholic Central, Grosse Pointe North, East Lansing, would get beaten soundly by Detroit Country Day, DeWitt, Corunna, Novi, Churchill, Kent City, and White Cloud, and probably Hillsdale as well.



How exactly did Sandusky qualify, other than having the ~$600 bucks required to participate?
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Re: 2008 QU NAC discussion and comment

Post by First Chairman »

Can't you ask Sandusky? Like... aren't they there?
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Re: 2008 QU NAC discussion and comment

Post by Ben Dillon »

MLaudermith wrote:
MLaudermith wrote:I'll wrap up by saying that one coach noticed me taking notes as Chip conducted a match. He leaned over and asked if I was Matt Weiner. Ask me nicely, and I'll tell you my reply.
Anyway, after the gentleman asked if I was Matt Weiner, I replied, "Yes, and which of Chip's pea-brained cronies might you be?"
"You can't talk to me like that!"
"Go take a chocolate cigarette and stick it up your %@#$! PACE 4 LIFE!"

It's always good to make new friends.
Truly funny. It would even be funnier if you'd actually said that to me aloud :)

I've only met Matt once in person, fleetingly, two weeks ago. For whatever reason, I thought perhaps Matt was coming to kibbitz, and I thought you were he.
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Re: 2008 QU NAC discussion and comment

Post by First Chairman »

I admit... that response was really funny.

"Hey, aren't you Matt Weiner" doesn't quite compare to "Hey, aren't you the Quizmaster?"
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Re: 2008 QU NAC discussion and comment

Post by Buzz Buzzard »

ILoveReeses wrote:Can't you ask Sandusky? Like... aren't they there?

They're there (at the hotel, or somewhere nearby), but I'm home now, and I'm not going back.

I saw on the running scoresheet posted, they had a 205-130 win over some other team earlier today.

And I figure, they probably qualified by winning a tournament against other noted (non) powerhouses as Brown City, Deckerville, Carsonville-Port Sanilac, Ubly, Marlette, Cass City, Imlay City, Harbor Beach, etc.

It was a quiz bowl nowheresville back in the late 80's, and I'm sure it is still today.

I say that even with a very -dear- friend from college who was from Carsonville-Port Sanilac.
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Re: 2008 QU NAC discussion and comment

Post by Ben Dillon »

MLaudermith wrote:I. On the issue of Chip's favoritism, I saw just one suspicious act. In a match with a team from Indiana, Chip made a point of recognizing the team's coach beforehand as the gentleman is retiring and has brought teams to NAC for many years. Chip then gave a brief history of Indiana teams at NAC, noting that they have gotten better and better until last year an IN team finally won (Harrison, I believe). Everyone then sits down to play and the first tossup is about Daylight Savings Time with Indiana as the first clue. The IN teams answers right away and Chip quickly remarks that the questions were prepared months in advance before anyone knew an Indiana team would be playing that round.
I'll clarify here, as Chip's memory is faulty. The gentleman he recognized is Don Hanlin, who more than anyone is responsible for Indiana quiz bowl getting organized. He started the state championship in '97 and is retiring this year, after having lost his wife and suffering a heart attack, both in the last five years. Don is not actually Center Grove's coach, and Center Grove has rarely attended nationals.

It is true that Indiana teams have gotten more plentiful at NAC and are only now taking steps toward increased participation in NAQT. (PACE is probably the next step.) As has been noted on this board, though, it's hard to claim that Indiana teams are getting better in NAC when the overall quality of the NAC field has gone down.
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Re: 2008 QU NAC discussion and comment

Post by Buzz Buzzard »

Okay, one more Chip-tacular tossup before I retire for the night:

In the 2:00 round, I was in Chip's room to hear Chip read it in all of his Chip-nescent glory:


"In poker, a Piano Hand is" ......... something, whatever, etc.

"What is a Motown Hand?"


(silence, both teams have no clue)


Beall: "It's a poker hand, with Jacks AND Fives........."


(collective groaning even from the entire audience)
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Re: 2008 QU NAC discussion and comment

Post by the return of AHAN »

Buzz Buzzard wrote:Okay, one more Chip-tacular tossup before I retire for the night:

In the 2:00 round, I was in Chip's room to hear Chip read it in all of his Chip-nescent glory:


"In poker, a Piano Hand is" ......... something, whatever, etc.

"What is a Motown Hand?"


(silence, both teams have no clue)


Beall: "It's a poker hand, with Jacks AND Fives........."


(collective groaning even from the entire audience)
I may never complain about IESA State Series again.
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Re: 2008 QU NAC discussion and comment

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In deference to Jeff's quote of me... the monkeys were working overtime in inhumane conditions on the word-processing programs...
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Re: 2008 QU NAC discussion and comment

Post by mithokie »

I don't know how other teams qualified, but we got a phone call invitation that cited our 2nd place finish in the Three Rivers District tournament as the reason for our invitation. There were 4 teams there.... at least to qualify for PACE we had to qualify for our state tournament. Fortunately I was able to tell the lady on the phone that we would be attending another national championship. The NAC marketing machine is pretty amazing, in addition to the phone call I also received mailed fliers and e-mail invitations. I imagine that much of the money spent by teams to enter the tournament is funneled toward tracking down teams to invite to nationals and on the marketing.
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Re: 2008 QU NAC discussion and comment

Post by Ben Dillon »

Buzz Buzzard wrote:"What is a Motown Hand?"

(silence, both teams have no clue)

Beall: "It's a poker hand, with Jacks AND Fives........."
I'm afraid it IS actually nicknamed this. I'm not sure if Vince Van Patten coined it on TV, but he does use it. Of course, that doesn't necessarily excuse including it in a tournament :)
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Re: 2008 QU NAC discussion and comment

Post by First Chairman »

Ben Dillon wrote:
Buzz Buzzard wrote:"What is a Motown Hand?"
(silence, both teams have no clue)
Beall: "It's a poker hand, with Jacks AND Fives........."
I'm afraid it IS actually nicknamed this. I'm not sure if Vince Van Patten coined it on TV, but he does use it. Of course, that doesn't necessarily excuse including it in a tournament :)
Yep it's in a couple of poker glossaries. I can't figure out what a piano hand or whatever Chip's term was. But it is significa at its very finest.
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Re: 2008 QU NAC discussion and comment

Post by Mike Bentley »

AHS Eagles wrote:I don't know how other teams qualified, but we got a phone call invitation that cited our 2nd place finish in the Three Rivers District tournament as the reason for our invitation. There were 4 teams there.... at least to qualify for PACE we had to qualify for our state tournament. Fortunately I was able to tell the lady on the phone that we would be attending another national championship. The NAC marketing machine is pretty amazing, in addition to the phone call I also received mailed fliers and e-mail invitations. I imagine that much of the money spent by teams to enter the tournament is funneled toward tracking down teams to invite to nationals and on the marketing.
Teams can also qualify for the NAC by winning the 20 Questions each month or by making the playoffs of Quiznet, so there are multiple routes to getting to the tournament.
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Re: 2008 QU NAC discussion and comment

Post by Tegan »

Here's how you qualify for NAC:

1. Your team's name is published somewhere that Chip can read it.

2. You have the money to attend.

Seriously, I would bet if some team called up and said "we've never played before, but we've got $600 burning a hole in our collective pockets", they would be in.

Maine South got cold called this past year, and while they had a good showing at New Trier's varsity (a respectable tournament), they did not place highly the rest of the year. Chip no doubt went to the IHSSBCA website, went down the list of tournament placers, and started making phone calls.

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Re: 2008 QU NAC discussion and comment

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Thus it would not surprise me if he or a minion searched this website, the NAQT website, or the PACE website looking for teams. That's not in and of itself a swarmy practice. It would also not surprise me if he accessed the AI Bykowski database.
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Re: 2008 QU NAC discussion and comment

Post by btressler »

Re: the "junior nationals"

As it happens, Raja's dad came out to Chicago to join us and called me at the exact moment that the comment was made. The Zinmeister came out of the room to tell what what had just been said. I really wasn't offended, considering the source.

Re: Comcast

I would very much like NAQT to get the contract to produce the questions. I like the people who run the competition. Next year if we win I will either ask permission to take the money to a different competition, or request that they send the second place team to nationals. Andrew is right, the competition is like 20 years old and so they have been "doing it this way" forever.

Re: Manheim

They are a good team, and looking over the sheet we made several mistakes that cost us the round. Maybe we'll get another chance tomorrow. But I am never surprised that we drop rounds in a format we do not practice and is geared towards keeping the match close.

Re: the bonus round

Andrew is also correct here. We have been able to amass LOTS of points with 50s in the second quarter. In the full round there are four bonuses, but these abbreviated prelims only feature three.

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Re: 2008 QU NAC discussion and comment

Post by Blackboard Monitor Vimes »

Stat74 wrote: Re: Comcast

I would very much like NAQT to get the contract to produce the questions. I like the people who run the competition. Next year if we win I will either ask permission to take the money to a different competition, or request that they send the second place team to nationals. Andrew is right, the competition is like 20 years old and so they have been "doing it this way" forever.
NAQT produces the majority of the questions for the Battle of the Brains TV show here in central VA. Based on this, I think they'd probably be willing to write for the Comcast show if Comcast were to ask them. However, CBS still comes up with some of the Battle of the Brains questions from other sources, and a lot of them are pretty awful. But, the fact that NAQT provides the majority of the questions makes the show an NAQT qualifier. If the Comcast show were to switch to NAQT, the prize money would thus logically finance a trip to HSNCT rather than NAC, which would be pretty awesome for you guys.
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Re: 2008 QU NAC discussion and comment

Post by Matt Weiner »

MLWGS-Gir wrote:NAQT produces the majority of the questions for the Battle of the Brains TV show here in central VA. Based on this, I think they'd probably be willing to write for the Comcast show if Comcast were to ask them. However, CBS still comes up with some of the Battle of the Brains questions from other sources, and a lot of them are pretty awful.
Awful, to say the least. Trying to get good questions for a televised competition is pretty much a waste of time, but at least switching the place where the prize money goes is within the realm of possibility.
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Re: 2008 QU NAC discussion and comment

Post by btressler »

We're about an hour or so from the playoffs being announced. Here's what we know:

Seton Hall and Chaska are 6-0, Seton Hall scored more.

Charter, Manheim Township, and a few others are 5-1. Charter is the high scorer. What one of the Plano teams does in a round going on right now will make Manheim either the 5 or 6 seed. Mike had the rest but I forget.

I managed to be less mad today. And I like Dave Madden as a reader. Somebody should get him to read other events.

There were a few things about Indiana Jones that I had objections to. But on balance I did enjoy the film. I hope they quick do one more with Harrison Ford as long as the script doesn't suck.

ADDENDUM: I forgot the best part. Our players attempted to play as "Tortilla", "Poker", "Chocolate", and "Potato". A certain moderator was not amused and made us change it.
Last edited by btressler on Sun Jun 08, 2008 9:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2008 QU NAC discussion and comment

Post by Down and out in Quintana Roo »

Good luck tomorrow Bill. No matter what happens, you guys have had three really impressive weekends.
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Re: 2008 QU NAC discussion and comment

Post by scquizbowl »

:roll: That is a complete joke what Chip told you about the "Junior Nationals". That is a horrible statement, and damages NAC. You (Wilmington Charter) are one of the best teams in the country, and beat many of the best teams in the country at NAQT. We qualified because we won our county tournament, which except for two or three teams, includes some very bad teams, that don't even have their hands on the buzzer half the time.

Another problem that I have is that :chip: let teams use nicknames for players in the preliminaries (like "NR A" for New Rochelle), but during the playoffs, be forewarned, as it will be a 100 point penalty right off the bat if you use nicknames in a match.

I was watching an old match from 1995 today, and a couple of the music questions I remembered from this year's nationals, as he has a penchant for repeating from year to year, which is good for some teams.

He does have good moderators in most of his rooms, like Mr. Joubert, Mr. Anderson, and others, but :chip: himself makes the whole tournament come apart. We (James Island) lost in the first round narrowly, in a surprise upset, but I'm sure if we were in a round that Chip moderated, he would talk about how long its been since we won his "senior nationals", because we hadn't won in nine years.

At least he doesn't do his long, drawn-out introductions like he did a few years ago, when he would introduce his judges at every single match, and introduced the teams in the middle of the match, like a game show.

For teams that want the experience of a major city and the pomp/circumstance, this is the tournament for you. For more and more serious teams, go to PACE or NAQT, unless you qualified for NAC through one of his many ways.
Last edited by scquizbowl on Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2008 QU NAC discussion and comment

Post by Matt Weiner »

scquizbowl wrote:He does have good moderators in most of his rooms, like Mr. Joubert, Mr. Anderson, and others,
At one of the games I saw, Joubert was not only offering patronizing commentary on the questions, he was sometimes pausing IN THE MIDDLE OF TOSSUPS to do so.
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Re: 2008 QU NAC discussion and comment

Post by btressler »

Here's your playoff bracket. I am not completely clear on the seeds, so I'm not guessing:

Hickman A v Manheim Tonwship
Plano A v Hastings A
Chicago Latin v Lincoln NE
(winner of Plano West and Lee) v Seton Hall Prep
Center Grove v Plano East A
Fishers Mango v Wilmington Charter
St. John's v St Thomas
(winner of Southside and James Bennett) v Chaska

The winner of this bracket plays John Cooper.
The winner of that game played Booker T for the championship.

Good luck Seton Hall, see you in the final?

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Re: 2008 QU NAC discussion and comment

Post by Tegan »

scquizbowl wrote:That is a complete joke what Chip told you about the "Junior Nationals". That is a horrible statement, and damages NAQT, which is the most well-run national. You (Wilmington Charter) are one of the best teams in the country, and beat many of the best teams in the country at NAQT.
I could not disagree more! Are the vain, self-promoting remarks of what can now only be perceived as a rambling old man who has lost touch with the reality of the world around him be construed as damaging to anything except himself and the organization he represents?

I have tried to stay neutral and open minded ... give him the beenfit of the doubt ...., but this, along with the comments which take swipes at PACE and NAQT on his website, clearly demonstrate the lack of class that this man has. If he wants to talk about the strengths of his tournament, you and I may disagree ..... go for it ..... but if he wants to use his invitational as a platform for his personal belief system which is some form of melding Christianity interwoven with putting down women, other tournaments, the accomplishments of high school students which don't fit his personal business philosophy .....

How can NAQT possibly lose? The more and more he talks, the more and more people are starting to see him for what he is.

The rest of your statement I agree with ..... though I will put PACE on the same shelf as NAQT for organization.

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