Playing Charter a lot

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Playing Charter a lot

Post by Down and out in Quintana Roo »

Tournaments over here are so worried/concerned about speed and getting things over with quickly that often we only play 5 matches if we don't qualify for the playoffs (far too often). I wish more of them would bracket the lower teams like you did and play between them. That only happens a couple times here.

Of course, when you have a tournament like we did where we played SIX GAMES AGAINST CHARTER TEAMS, it becomes a little demoralizing (we went 3-3 against them, and 1 other win). That was the tourney where Charter placed first, second, third, fourth, and fifth.
Last edited by Down and out in Quintana Roo on Sun May 11, 2008 5:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Midwest Championship on May 10, 2008, at Culver Acad. (IN)

Post by Matt Weiner »

Caesar Rodney HS wrote:Of course, when you have a tournament like we did where we played SIX GAMES AGAINST CHARTER TEAMS, it becomes a little demoralizing (we went 3-3 against them, and 1 other win). That was the tourney where Charter placed first, second, third, fourth, and fifth.
Can I politely suggest that you stop bringing this up? Other teams are better than yours at this exact moment in time; in the future, perhaps they will graduate players, or your players will get better. In any case this is a competitive activity in which we keep score and name winners and losers of games, so you need to figure out a way to deal with that without getting "demoralized." I am old enough to remember when Caesar Rodney was the only decent team in Delaware and the only one that traveled out of state.
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Re: Midwest Championship on May 10, 2008, at Culver Acad. (IN)

Post by Down and out in Quintana Roo »

Because Charter HS is only 12 years old, that's why, and we were the only school besides Salesianum who took it seriously then.

But okay, your wish is my command.
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Re: Midwest Championship on May 10, 2008, at Culver Acad. (IN)

Post by TheCzarMan »

Matt Weiner wrote:
Caesar Rodney HS wrote:Of course, when you have a tournament like we did where we played SIX GAMES AGAINST CHARTER TEAMS, it becomes a little demoralizing (we went 3-3 against them, and 1 other win). That was the tourney where Charter placed first, second, third, fourth, and fifth.
Can I politely suggest that you stop bringing this up? Other teams are better than yours at this exact moment in time; in the future, perhaps they will graduate players, or your players will get better. In any case this is a competitive activity in which we keep score and name winners and losers of games, so you need to figure out a way to deal with that without getting "demoralized." I am old enough to remember when Caesar Rodney was the only decent team in Delaware and the only one that traveled out of state.
I don't think his issue is with winning and losing, I just think its with the scheduling of the tournament. Admittedly, when you are in the playoffs theres no right to protest who you play against. Yet, having 6 games against a nationally competitive team seems to be counterproductive to giving every team a balanced schedule (I say this without seeing the tournament team list, so my comment may be off key.) And while you say you have to learn to deal with losing and being demoralized, for a lot of schools a club like Quizbowl isn't going to be something where kids will put up with being demolished every game and then devote a ton of time to getting better as they prioritize many other things above Quizbowl in their lives. Quizbowl for them is a for fun activity for them and because of that they have less of an inclination towards the competitiveness.

Of course though, speaking of Caesar Rodney, his team is at a level (currently) where his team can have good matches against some of Charter's teams, and I believe his kids can deal with losing. But what if this were some other school that had the 6 Charter Team Death Schedule? What if at this school the club wasn't established yet and the kids were looking to just have fun? A schedule like that could simply lead to the entire quizbowl team not seeing a point to a club they have no chance in (Assuming they got 1-5, 0-6.) That could cause the growth of Quizbowl the stagnate. I believe some tournaments need to pay more attention to how good the teams are in the tournament and who they are playing. I also think someone needs to come out to approach these not as competitive teams and make tournaments for them to get them into Quizbowl and slowly establish a base from which that team could possibly flourish.
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Re: Midwest Championship on May 10, 2008, at Culver Acad. (IN)

Post by Matt Weiner »

TheCzarMan wrote:I don't think his issue is with winning and losing, I just think its with the scheduling of the tournament. Admittedly, when you are in the playoffs theres no right to protest who you play against. Yet, having 6 games against a nationally competitive team seems to be counterproductive to giving every team a balanced schedule (I say this without seeing the tournament team list, so my comment may be off key.) And while you say you have to learn to deal with losing and being demoralized, for a lot of schools a club like Quizbowl isn't going to be something where kids will put up with being demolished every game and then devote a ton of time to getting better as they prioritize many other things above Quizbowl in their lives. Quizbowl for them is a for fun activity for them and because of that they have less of an inclination towards the competitiveness.

Of course though, speaking of Caesar Rodney, his team is at a level (currently) where his team can have good matches against some of Charter's teams, and I believe his kids can deal with losing. But what if this were some other school that had the 6 Charter Team Death Schedule? What if at this school the club wasn't established yet and the kids were looking to just have fun? A schedule like that could simply lead to the entire quizbowl team not seeing a point to a club they have no chance in (Assuming they got 1-5, 0-6.) That could cause the growth of Quizbowl the stagnate. I believe some tournaments need to pay more attention to how good the teams are in the tournament and who they are playing. I also think someone needs to come out to approach these not as competitive teams and make tournaments for them to get them into Quizbowl and slowly establish a base from which that team could possibly flourish.
Someone has to win and someone has to lose, and if Charter has a vibrant enough program to bring six teams to a tournament, we should be applauding that, not whining about it. Do you suggest we just give everybody a participating ribbon and go home, or should we actually play the games and keep score?

I'm also splitting these posts off because this is the Midwest Championship at Culver thread, not the 'demand that everyone win every game because people might be sore losers who refuse to have fun without winning' thread.
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Re: Midwest Championship on May 10, 2008, at Culver Acad. (IN)

Post by TheCzarMan »

Matt Weiner wrote: Someone has to win and someone has to lose, and if Charter has a vibrant enough program to bring six teams to a tournament, we should be applauding that, not whining about it. Do you suggest we just give everybody a participating ribbon and go home, or should we actually play the games and keep score?
I never said anything about criticizing Charter for bringing 6 teams. The fact that they've gotten their program to a point whereupon they can bring 6, competitive teams to tournaments is astounding and a resounding success for QB. I'm just stating how an unbalanced schedule could potentially affect a fledgling team that could necessarily be at a point where its make or break, and being scheduled against Charter six times could bring the team to the point of having no belief in ever being competitive. I'm not whining at all about Charter bring six teams, I'm more whining (If you insist on calling it that) about the potential for unbalanced schedules in tournament directing.

All I'm doing is bringing a small program mindset into this, from my perspective. I know just from reading the forums that my viewpoints are unpopular ones here, but I'm fine with that. I understand that Quizbowl is more than just a fun little event. It's competitive, teams win or lose, and teams can go down as some of the most dominant ever (TJ 2005). I'm just trying to highlight how a less serious, or you could say, less competitive school looks at this. Unfortunately for me, not many, IF any other kids in my club share a desire to improve ourselves and become more competitive. Therefore, while knowing how good teams work and everything, I attempt to try and slowly bring them into realizing what is good and what is bad. But I cannot get them to completely delve into QB 100%, or else I risk alienating the entire club and killing the team for my school.

Once our school had been to every NAQT since it's inception. Since I've joined the team I've watched the new advisor take over from the old and have no desire at all to coach. I've gone to a grand total of 4 tournaments this year, because my advisor either did not care to take us anywhere or found prior engagements (Such as having to cancel on Chatham when my teacher decided to go to Glow in the Dark tour.) I barely get to see the actual QB world outside of what I see here. Probably my proudest moment so far this year was playing Princeton (Which took weeks of begging to get my advisor to take us there.) Whereupon I got to play against nationally impressive teams (State College B, and Charter A.) In my game against Charter A, I felt that if I had kids who actually would attempt to get better, we could have made a match out of it or at least made it into the triple digits with Charter.

My two cents...
Matt Weiner wrote:'demand that everyone win every game because people might be sore losers who refuse to have fun without winning' thread.
I find that an incredibly ignorant statement and one which doesn't reflect the issue that me and Andrew were bringing up.
Last edited by TheCzarMan on Sun May 11, 2008 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Midwest Championship on May 10, 2008, at Culver Acad. (IN)

Post by Down and out in Quintana Roo »

Matt Weiner wrote:...and if Charter has a vibrant enough program to bring six teams to a tournament,
They brought seven, actually. But who's counting?
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Re: Midwest Championship on May 10, 2008, at Culver Acad. (IN)

Post by Blackboard Monitor Vimes »

Caesar Rodney HS wrote:
Matt Weiner wrote:...and if Charter has a vibrant enough program to bring six teams to a tournament,
They brought seven, actually. But who's counting?
Sir, if I may offer my opinion as a teenager, I think people would be more inclined to take you seriously if you perhaps didn't gripe so much...
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Re: Midwest Championship on May 10, 2008, at Culver Acad. (IN)

Post by Matt Weiner »

TheCzarMan wrote:I find that an incredibly ignorant statement and one which doesn't reflect the issue that me and Andrew were bringing up.
Which is what, exactly? What are you proposing, in concrete terms?
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Re: Playing Charter a lot

Post by mujason »

To Caesar Rodney:
Stop complaining and start studying/practicing. That way, you'll fare better against the Charter teams and your C team won't be dead last in the national Byko ratings. I know from experience about wasting time and energy on griping and complaining; it isn't worth it.
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Re: Playing Charter a lot

Post by Matt Weiner »

mujason wrote:To Caesar Rodney:
Stop complaining and start studying/practicing. That way, you'll fare better against the Charter teams and your C team won't be dead last in the national Byko ratings. I know from experience about wasting time and energy on griping and complaining; it isn't worth it.
This, also, is not a productive comment.
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Re: Midwest Championship on May 10, 2008, at Culver Acad. (IN)

Post by TheCzarMan »

Matt Weiner wrote:
TheCzarMan wrote:I find that an incredibly ignorant statement and one which doesn't reflect the issue that me and Andrew were bringing up.
Which is what, exactly? What are you proposing, in concrete terms?
The idea of having balanced balanced schedules with no sense of a skewed strength that allows you to play against all levels of the competition in the preliminaries at a tournament.

Although now looking at the tournament in question now, it seems that Caesar's Prelim schedule with balanced, playing Charter's E and G teams while playing their B team in the Prelim along with Ursuline. It appears he got his number of playing 6 teams that included the playoffs, in which case who and what level of prowess the team possesses has no matter anymore and you play who you are scheduled against to the best of your ability.
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Re: Playing Charter a lot

Post by First Chairman »

I think Matt Knupp can remind me... didn't Dunbar bring ten teams once to Vanderbilt? Charter's got a ways to go yet! :wink:

I think there is a saying that "you cannot control the cards you're dealt, but you can control how you play them"?

Then again, if I read the original post correctly, there may be something the TD could do... though probably not that much.
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Re: Playing Charter a lot

Post by btressler »

Well now, we've become the center of unwanted attention.

To clarify:

(a) the tournament in question had 4 card-matched rounds in the morning. Since Caesar Rodney A tends to win at least a few rounds, and so do Charter A-G, such pairings are not unexpected. The afternoon was a 16-team playoff bracket, with consolation rounds.

(b) We have done brackets (and not cards) at least twice for this tournament in the past, which would limit one's exposure to any school provided the brackets are balanced. I may do so again. I like the cards because teams play others of similar strength. But I see they do have this downside in this field.

(c) As a TD for many Delaware events, my decision on what kind of tournament to do and how many rounds is determined by moderators and other factors. I'm not sure we had any tournaments this year in Delaware where too many moderators was a problem. Give me enough moderators who could read on the clock, and we'll do 12 rounds. (Keep in mind coaches used to complain about 7 prelims at the Blue Hen although I agree that this year's five was at least one too few.)
TheCzarMan wrote:I never said anything about criticizing Charter for bringing 6 teams. The fact that they've gotten their program to a point whereupon they can bring 6, competitive teams to tournaments is astounding and a resounding success for QB.
Thank you for your kind words.
ILoveReeses wrote:I think Matt Knupp can remind me... didn't Dunbar bring ten teams once to Vanderbilt? Charter's got a ways to go yet!
I am pleased to announce Charter's Fall Tryout, in which forty new players will be drafted.
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Re: Playing Charter a lot

Post by catsasslippers »

Playing six charter teams shouldn't be an issue. If there had been a field with say Dorman, Whitman, WJ, and RM, and you played the aforementioned teams plus one other team in a 5 prelim rounds then you might have cause to complain. As it stands Charters A-F are not all at the same level. Certainly Charter brings a number of competitive teams to tournaments, but it really doesn't matter what school the team you're playing is from when it is swiss-paired. In the end you're going to play teams of the appropriate record.
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Re: Playing Charter a lot

Post by Tegan »

Caesar Rodney HS wrote:Of course, when you have a tournament like we did where we played SIX GAMES AGAINST CHARTER TEAMS, it becomes a little demoralizing (we went 3-3 against them, and 1 other win). That was the tourney where Charter placed first, second, third, fourth, and fifth.
Brother, I can relate ..... we have to deal with the New Triers and Wheaton Norths of the world around every corner (in Illinois, the private schools and even smaller number of charter schools aren't very good ... Loyola Academy and St. Ignatius generally being exceptions) .... and even away from Chicago there are Bloomingtons and Carbondales and Auburns.

It can be very frustrating .... no one likes to lose. And despite what some of the people are saying, I don't think you are complaining ..... frustrated perhaps, but not really complaining.

The only thing I can suggest: find a way to get better ...... if your coach cannot work with you that much, or won't work with you that much, then self organize practices outside of school. See if you can get to tournaments another way (some tournaments will permit non-school sponsored teams to enter). Start politely and gently asking the coach to take you places. IF that is not possible, you can gently and politely approach other staff members ... parents, etc. If that doesn't work, you might try approaching the administration and ask for some input as to how things might be solved.

Let this be the exercise though: don't take charge, but do take the initiative.

My first year coaching, I had a very nice team to work with. We got beaten up and down the state of Illinois. We lost 28 games (led the state in losses). We won 14. That is as far from impressive as it gets. On the other hand, that (to me) was a far improvement over 2-9 .. the record of the last year's team). We still lost 20 the next year, but won 41. It takes time .... a lot of time. You might even need to convince yourself that .... sucky as it is ..... the progress you are making today will not be something that you will get to enjoy as a player .... but that future teams at your school may get to enjoy.

That first team I had never played very well ..... but their willingness to play on Saturdays and take beating after beating set the groundwork for expectations for future teams .... yes, we will be gone all day Saturday ..... yes, practice is pretty much expected .... yes, you will exhibit sportsmanship or sit out .... yadda, yadda. It helped make the program stronger for the future. One of the saddest part of my coaching career was that those players never got to really feel the joy of the success that the later teams had.

It is easy to sit there and preach "study harder", "go to more matches", "stop complaining" etc .... a lot of those people who are brow-beating on you have never had the misfortune of not being on anything other than state and national contenders. They are correct in that these are the only ways to improve. There is no way around that. You can choose to go to non-competitive tournaments and win a lot and feel warm and fuzzy, or you can face down real competition with a much higher percentage of losing, knowing that you are facing tough competition. I always tried to get my teams to competitive tournaments, when possible.

I wish you the best of luck! Stick with it, and keep building.

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Re: Playing Charter a lot

Post by evilmonkey »

Tegan wrote:
Caesar Rodney HS wrote:Of course, when you have a tournament like we did where we played SIX GAMES AGAINST CHARTER TEAMS, it becomes a little demoralizing (we went 3-3 against them, and 1 other win). That was the tourney where Charter placed first, second, third, fourth, and fifth.
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Re: Playing Charter a lot

Post by Stat Boy »

I don't see what's demoralizing about going 3-3 against four or five different teams. That seems like a pretty well-balanced schedule.
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Re: Playing Charter a lot

Post by Down and out in Quintana Roo »

Ha, thanks for SOMEBODY realizing i'm the coach here... i might be only 25, but it is my third year coaching at my alma mater.

Nah, i wasn't complaining. Merely voicing concerns.

Start studying and practicing? Okie dokie, i suppose practice twice a week all year plus all the lists and study material i give the kids isn't enough apparently.

Again, this wasn't originally a thread, it was a comment, but thanks very much to the moderators for making me look stupid by the title like i started this whole thing. I won't go back and change it since i made my original point, but okay.

The 3-3 wasn't demoralizing necessarily.. but the 3 losses (480-70, 375-65, and 540-125) weren't all that fun. In fact, two of those wins came down to the wire and were great games. I love close games even if we lose, but 300(or more)-point spreads are tough.

If you count the Comcast Academic Challenge (Delaware's "TV tournament") we played on 6 weekends. I guess that's okay. We get no funding from the school so we can't travel often, but i'm going to try to change that (in one way or another) next year. We enjoyed all the tourneys we went to, as far as i know, even though the 1-4 (and 0-5 B team) mark at the Richard Montgomery tourney was pretty crummy.
mujason wrote:...and your C team won't be dead last in the national Byko ratings....
Thanks for the jab at the C team, i really appreciate you taking the time to realize that those are all freshmen who play their darnest and attend practice and study whenever they can, and who just want to play as much as the rest of the kids on the team. I didn't have to take 3 teams to tournaments, but 12 kids wanted to play so i figured i would shell out another 50-60 dollars to make it happen instead of having them be alternates. They really were happy to just be there. I'm sure you took all that into consideration before making your thoughtful and not-at-all-condescending post. You rock!
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Re: Playing Charter a lot

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Caesar Rodney HS wrote:Again, this wasn't originally a thread, it was a comment, but thanks very much to the moderators for making me look stupid by the title like i started this whole thing. I won't go back and change it since i made my original point, but okay.
Well, you brought the subject up and in its original thread it was off topic, so it was split off into its own thread appropriately. That's how this forum works - we have threads devoted to topics; if a discussion breaks out about another one, it's split into its own thread.
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Re: Playing Charter a lot

Post by Mechanical Beasts »

Caesar Rodney HS wrote: The 3-3 wasn't demoralizing necessarily.. but the 3 losses (480-70, 375-65, and 540-125) weren't all that fun. In fact, two of those wins came down to the wire and were great games. I love close games even if we lose, but 300(or more)-point spreads are tough.
I've told this story more than once, perhaps more than once on these forums, but it bears repeating. The very first game I played, as a wee freshman, was against DCC. This was Joel Knight's sophomore year. We lost by a score of 410 - (-5), or something similar. I buzzed three times: I got a tossup, I got a neg, and I buzzed during their bonus. I was pretty sad.

I was also sad later that day when we played Solon, during Noah Rahman's junior year. We were positive--we may have even put up a hundred points--but we were absolutely demolished. We were never even remotely in the game. I saw Noah stop caring halfway through the game, and surprise! we started getting tossups.

That year, DCC was fourth in the nation--beating noted powerhouse State College--and Solon was tied for eighth after losses in the playoffs to St. John's (3rd) and Cutter Morning Star (6th).

Those were two very, very hard games, and I think they were two of the first five I ever played. Only one of my teammates that day had ever played before.

Two years later, we were fifth in the nation.

The moral of the story is that it's remarkable how quickly 300 point spreads in one direction will turn into 300 point spreads in the other if you keep things up. You sound like you have a C-team of freshmen that are dedicated. That's great. Keep them working on the lists that you give them over the summer. Maybe even have each of them write a packet of questions--they can be easy, they can be three lines, whatever--and play them in practice. They will learn, and they will work, and they will grow.

Charter is a great program--and they have a great coach; I hope he's forgiven us for beating them in the playoffs that year, and I wish it hadn't gone down to that "CSA Congress of the CSA" protest--and they have a lot of very good teams right now. That might no longer be true two years from now, or ten--and if you keep at it, and your freshmen keep on loving quiz bowl, maybe three years from now you'll have six teams, too.

And in the meantime, the more good teams you play, the better you get. It's hard, but as a coach, it's your job to keep your kids from getting demoralized--not the tournament director's. You played so many Charter teams because you made it into the playoffs--because you did well. Sure, it may seem that they're earning the right to get beat down a little, but try to make them think of it differently: they're earning the right to learn how to give a beat down.

And once they learn that lesson, and take a good team to town themselves, they'll be very, very satisfied.
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Re: Playing Charter a lot

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Caesar Rodney HS wrote: Start studying and practicing? Okie dokie, i suppose practice twice a week all year plus all the lists and study material i give the kids isn't enough apparently.
Give me an e-mail at [email protected]. I'll be glad to help you out with figuring out the best way to get the most out of practice time.
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Re: Playing Charter a lot

Post by First Chairman »

quizbowllee wrote:
Caesar Rodney HS wrote: Start studying and practicing? Okie dokie, i suppose practice twice a week all year plus all the lists and study material i give the kids isn't enough apparently.
Give me an e-mail at [email protected]. I'll be glad to help you out with figuring out the best way to get the most out of practice time.
Plus I think I have a PACE Special Discussion on the general topic of practice... we're talking about practice...
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Re: Playing Charter a lot

Post by Tegan »

Coach,

There's a few people here who should be embarassed. You're not one of them, and I'm likely the only one who will admit it. I totally screwed that up .... I was not trying to make you feel bad ..... if I'd had actually taken 3 seconds to read your sig, I would have actually known that. My fault entirely.

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Re: Playing Charter a lot

Post by Matt Weiner »

Caesar Rodney HS wrote:Start studying and practicing? Okie dokie, i suppose practice twice a week all year plus all the lists and study material i give the kids isn't enough apparently.
Well, no, if your goal is to beat one of the top 5 teams in the country, it's not. You should either set a different goal, or do more towards the rather large one you appear to have. Again, what is your complaint here? That other teams have the audacity to be better than you? That you are incapable of having fun without being the national champion? That being the #2 team in your state wouldn't be enough for you? What exactly is the issue besides your constant desire to feel assaulted by normal communication?
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Re: Playing Charter a lot

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Caesar Rodney HS wrote: Start studying and practicing? Okie dokie, i suppose practice twice a week all year plus all the lists and study material i give the kids isn't enough apparently.
I don't want to pile on here, but you're right in that it apparently isn't enough, depending on how lofty your goals are. Now, I'm not saying your practices are bad or that you're giving out bad study material, because I obviously have no idea what kind of stuff you do in practice, but these really are the only things you can do in order to improve (I'm filing writing questions under "studying" here). I can see how it could be frustrating to play in fields where a large amount of the teams are from a program with Charter's depth and strength among their good players, but they presumably got to where they are by studying and practicing. And really, all tournaments are going to have elite teams, especially now when there's a greater gap between great and average/good teams than ever before.

I doubt there's a huge disparity in how well, say, Charter's players retain information and how well yours do, so the differences must be in how much effort they put into improving. I doubt your players blow off trying to get better entirely, but there's much more they can do because honestly, there's more that everyone can do. I mean, there are millions of things even the best college players don't know. I would suggest that you try to find out what some of the more successful coaches have done and try to emulate their methods. Perhaps even someone fairly local like Bill Tressler would be willing to give you advice.

Edit: I saw above that Lee Henry has offered to assist you. Take him up on it if you haven't already, he has experience with creating a good team from literally nothing, in a region not friendly to good quizbowl, no less.

If your kids don't want to put in the time necessary to become competitive against the Charter As of the world, there's not much you can do, and I offer my condolences. But if that isn't the case, then by all means get them to do as much as they possibly can and the results will gradually come in.
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Re: Playing Charter a lot

Post by Ondes Martenot »

You know, Hunter went from a non-existent program to beating Charter A at THS 1138 in less than two years so it is possible. Yes I realize that most schools don't have a Guy and that the "general consensus was that the NAQT questions were horrible" so please don't bombard with arguments. Just letting you know that it is possible.
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Re: Playing Charter a lot

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aarcoh wrote:You know, Hunter went from a non-existent program to beating Charter A at THS 1138 in less than two years so it is possible. Yes I realize that most schools don't have a Guy and that the "general consensus was that the NAQT questions were horrible" so please don't bombard with arguments. Just letting you know that it is possible.
You also have to look at the HS itself. Charter and Hunter are both selective admissions schools (to my knowledge) which would lend itself to a more knowledgeable player base to choose from. That's not to say there aren't public schools (State College) that excel, but it really depends on the Academics of the school, and the attitudes of the students who go there.
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Re: Playing Charter a lot

Post by Ondes Martenot »

Still Hunter started out as nothing, while Caesar Rodney has a long established team. Obviously being a magnet school gives them an above average talent base, but they still had to work hard to reach this level. At least I assume that's what they did.
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Re: Playing Charter a lot

Post by TheCzarMan »

aarcoh wrote:Still Hunter started out as nothing, while Caesar Rodney has a long established team. Obviously being a magnet school gives them an above average talent base, but they still had to work hard to reach this level. At least I assume that's what they did.
Tradition doesn't work that well in QB though. You could have looked at my school's program three years ago and considered it one of the better ones in New Jersey. Then graduation happens. And new players don't have nearly the dedication of the old.

Not to mention some schools run through advisors close to every year.

EDIT:

Just to highlight, this is where our 2004-2005 A Team was at:
http://www.naqt.com/hsnct/2005/results/detail.bla.html

6-4 with a close lost to an RM A team, before getting beaten handily in the playoffs by RM.

to...

http://ratings.aiquizbowl.com/team.php? ... mfield%20A

3-8 (Actually 9-11, but it's missing some games from local tournaments.) No wins against a team ranked in the Top 2500.

For this there can be several blames. Disparity of talent, as we don't have a true A team and have only one constant, which is myself since people either don't come to tournaments or just suddenly play terrible at A level. You could also call out the fact that our new advisor has a hands off approach and doesn't really encourage us much if at all (We're getting a new one next year as she is leaving for Grad School.)
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Re: Playing Charter a lot

Post by BuzzerZen »

TheCzarMan wrote:Tradition doesn't work that well in QB though.
On the contrary, I think traditions have a lot to do with building success. Sure, TJ, Charter, and Gov have magnet programs, but they also have traditions of commitment and serious engagement with the game that are transmitted from older players to younger ones. I would assert that continuity and tradition, even across advisor changes, has a lot to do with the success of many top high school teams.
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Re: Playing Charter a lot

Post by Sir Thopas »

TheCzarMan wrote:
aarcoh wrote:You know, Hunter went from a non-existent program to beating Charter A at THS 1138 in less than two years so it is possible. Yes I realize that most schools don't have a Guy and that the "general consensus was that the NAQT questions were horrible" so please don't bombard with arguments. Just letting you know that it is possible.
You also have to look at the HS itself. Charter and Hunter are both selective admissions schools (to my knowledge) which would lend itself to a more knowledgeable player base to choose from. That's not to say there aren't public schools (State College) that excel, but it really depends on the Academics of the school, and the attitudes of the students who go there.
Yeah, we are selective admission, and you'd think that the attitude would be conducive, but with debate, model UN, etc., already entrenched, it's been hell getting people to show up. That's probably one of the reasons we're mostly getting 7th and 8th graders---we grab them early, while the other activities are just 9-12 for the most part. I'm hoping we won't have any attrition next year . . .

As for tradition, I'd say that it helps, but it's still pretty meaningless compared to what you have at any given year. It's possible for teams to come out of nowhere, as I guess we have, and also for established teams to fall into disrepair. Pretty much what you guys have already said, really.
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Re: Playing Charter a lot

Post by Mechanical Beasts »

metsfan001 wrote: Yeah, we are selective admission, and you'd think that the attitude would be conducive, but with debate, model UN, etc., already entrenched, it's been hell getting people to show up. That's probably one of the reasons we're mostly getting 7th and 8th graders---we grab them early, while the other activities are just 9-12 for the most part. I'm hoping we won't have any attrition next year . . .
Quite true for SSA. The only game in town in middle school is Science Olympiad, and that dominates in high school, as do about forty different organizations, a requirement that you play sports two of three trimesters, and debate and model UN. Being a magnet or a private school means that you have some smart kids, sure, but it also means that you're probably not a school of 1500 students--not close--and it also means that your kids are stretched way too thin.
metsfan001 wrote: As for tradition, I'd say that it helps, but it's still pretty meaningless compared to what you have at any given year. It's possible for teams to come out of nowhere, as I guess we have, and also for established teams to fall into disrepair. Pretty much what you guys have already said, really.
I mean, if all of a sudden no one signed up for quiz bowl four straight years at TJ or Charter or Gov or wherever, then yes, tradition wouldn't mean jack because they would quite literally no longer have a team. But I think that tradition, at those schools, ensures that they do have a team, because quiz bowl is simply something that some fraction of each freshman class just does. Note: I'm obviously speculating here, but I'm modeling off successful, "traditional" clubs at SSA. So years where no freshmen sign up just won't happen.

In general--I think you can say that "tradition" for a school that in 2004 went 1-2 at HSNCT and in 2005 went something like 1-7, means something different than just about anywhere else.
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Re: Playing Charter a lot

Post by intothenegs »

TheCzarMan wrote: Tradition doesn't work that well in QB though. You could have looked at my school's program three years ago and considered it one of the better ones in New Jersey. Then graduation happens. And new players don't have nearly the dedication of the old.
Yeah, it's hard for "traditions" to mean much in small public schools. Our school's 2005 team won VHSL Division A States, and I suppose it's had a fairly good tradition of doing well locally, but when the 2006-2007 school year started, there was only one returning player (me). We've had a team for years, but there's always a threat of our team just not existing anymore due to a lack of interest, despite some of our minor successes in the past. Some schools might have a quizbowl tradition, but it doesn't guarantee them being competitive at the top level. At many small schools, it's hard enough just to find enough interested people to have a team.
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Re: Playing Charter a lot

Post by TheCzarMan »

intothenegs wrote:
TheCzarMan wrote: Tradition doesn't work that well in QB though. You could have looked at my school's program three years ago and considered it one of the better ones in New Jersey. Then graduation happens. And new players don't have nearly the dedication of the old.
Yeah, it's hard for "traditions" to mean much in small public schools. Our school's 2005 team won VHSL Division A States, and I suppose it's had a fairly good tradition of doing well locally, but when the 2006-2007 school year started, there was only one returning player (me). We've had a team for years, but there's always a threat of our team just not existing anymore due to a lack of interest, despite some of our minor successes in the past. Some schools might have a quizbowl tradition, but it doesn't guarantee them being competitive at the top level. At many small schools, it's hard enough just to find enough interested people to have a team.
That sad thing is I have the same problem with 2,000 kids attending my school.
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Re: Playing Charter a lot

Post by Down and out in Quintana Roo »

By the way, no CR team existed when i started teaching here 3 years ago. It had been out of commission for more than 2 years. I started it again from nothing, and not a single player i coached that year had ever had any experience on any quizbowl team in their schooling lives. So, again, forget the "tradition" argument. It's nothing here. Besides, my school cares a hell of a lot more about the wrestling titles we win than anything academic, i'll tell you that.

Yes we used to be good. But when we were very good, Charter a) didn't exist for a while (until 1996), and b) started existing and not being any good in the beginning.

I've been talking to Lee and trying to come up with some strategies. I'll let you know how it goes. Already sensing a lot of backlash on the team.
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Re: Playing Charter a lot

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Caesar Rodney HS wrote:I've been talking to Lee and trying to come up with some strategies. I'll let you know how it goes. Already sensing a lot of backlash on the team.
For what its worth .... when I took over as coach six years ago, and I explained that there were going to be changes (like going to Saturday tournaments and mandatory afternoon practices [practices used to be in the morning to not conflict with more important activity meetings]). The result was that I had no seniors return. When I asked, the juniors who did show up (only four) told me that the seniors did not want to put in the work. The result was a pretty sucky season with some nice kids, but later led to far more successful seasons.

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Re: Playing Charter a lot

Post by First Chairman »

It's kinda too bad there is always a "backlash" among the more senior members. All it takes is for you to get the junior members on the ball for your cause. So if you have a group of younger kids who you want to show off at all these tournaments where they play the heavyweights of the circuit (say helping out at NSC if that were possible), then the kids will get to understand from talking to peers what efforts other teams are putting in to be really good. Sometimes the competitive streak works, sometimes it doesn't.
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Re: Playing Charter a lot

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Caesar Rodney HS wrote:Besides, my school cares a hell of a lot more about the wrestling titles we win than anything academic, i'll tell you that.
Luckily for you, for the most part different kids care about quiz bowl and OMG SPORTS SPORTS SPORTS. I know of a number of competitive athletes that play quiz bowl, granted, but the majority of quiz bowlers aren't--just because of the time conflicts.

Our SSA team faced the same troubles, though. I don't think the glory of sport x is ever overshadowed by academics. We had to pay our way to every tournament we attended in every academic club; the school payed for the hockey team to travel to Europe to lose still more games.
Caesar Rodney HS wrote: Yes we used to be good. But when we were very good, Charter a) didn't exist for a while (until 1996), and b) started existing and not being any good in the beginning.
Something about this doesn't make much sense. What did Charter's existence have to do with how good you were? Or are you saying that you were only considered good because Charter wasn't around or wasn't good itself? I don't get it.
Caesar Rodney HS wrote: I've been talking to Lee and trying to come up with some strategies. I'll let you know how it goes. Already sensing a lot of backlash on the team.
Backlash? As in resistance, like the team doesn't want you to do what Lee recommends?

You have three teams of players, at least, right? Perhaps the A team resisters ought to be put on the B team, and the B team resisters on the C team, so that the A team is free of resisters. Or, if you don't want to take control of the team to that sort of an extent, I'd say you should just do everything that he recommends that the team doesn't object to.

I only even make the former recommendation because you give your kids lists and things, meaning that they seem to want to get better, to study, to grow as players. Because if there is backlash to using practice time more efficiently, or reading better packets, or whatever, then maybe your kids don't want to get serious and get really, really, really good at the game. That's not inherently a bad thing; they're free to do what they want.
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Re: Playing Charter a lot

Post by Down and out in Quintana Roo »

everyday847 wrote:What did Charter's existence have to do with how good you were? Or are you saying that you were only considered good because Charter wasn't around or wasn't good itself?
Yes, i think so.
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Re: Playing Charter a lot

Post by BuzzerZen »

I'd like to refer you to these recently-written QBWiki articles: How to turn a good high school team into a nationally elite high school team and How to turn a lower-tier high school team into a good high school team. Executive summary: practice a whole lot.
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Re: Playing Charter a lot

Post by Matt Weiner »

Those articles are somewhat incomplete. Getting a good team to nationally competitive level requires more than just practicing.
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Re: Playing Charter a lot

Post by Down and out in Quintana Roo »

Those links don't work at my school/work since...
doc-ent.com is categorized as games
The requested page has been blocked by the content filter because it is in violation of the internet acceptable usage policy set by the administration.
Nice. I'll check em out at home.
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Re: Playing Charter a lot

Post by AKKOLADE »

Bentley!!! (Actually, it's because it's hosted on Bentley's small games company)
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Re: Playing Charter a lot

Post by Mike Bentley »

Haha, hilarious.
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Re: Playing Charter a lot

Post by Mechanical Beasts »

Matt Weiner wrote:Those articles are somewhat incomplete. Getting a good team to nationally competitive level requires more than just practicing.
Preposterous!

Seriously, though, it also takes [abstract noun] and [abstract noun], and a willingness to [verb]. It can't hurt to have a [noun] on hand able to [verb] whenever necessary.

Seriously (really this time!) though, I can't think of anything else: practicing entails playing questions both against each other and against other schools. What more do you need?
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Re: Playing Charter a lot

Post by Matt Weiner »

everyday847 wrote:Seriously (really this time!) though, I can't think of anything else: practicing entails playing questions both against each other and against other schools. What more do you need?
If you just practice, you're only going to learn clues that have come up before and that every other top-tier team is also practicing on. If you want to get ahead of the curve, you need to read books or write questions to learn material that may come up in the future.
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Re: Playing Charter a lot

Post by Mr Foster »

If you really want to know actually playing a nationally experienced team really does help as it can only make your team better
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Re: Playing Charter a lot

Post by First Chairman »

Matt beat me to the punch: learning to write questions in the style of the national tournaments is VERY important. Writing forces you to think about the way we organize the clues in the game and exposes the writer to more information that could come up during a game.
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Re: Playing Charter a lot

Post by evilmonkey »

BuzzerZen wrote:I'd like to refer you to these recently-written QBWiki articles: How to turn a good high school team into a nationally elite high school team and How to turn a lower-tier high school team into a good high school team. Executive summary: practice a whole lot.
If you're going to refer people to them, people who will take you seriously, you may want to make sure they contain information.
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