Is this acceptable?

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Youse Da Force
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Is this acceptable?

Post by Youse Da Force »

I'm not sure where to post this, so Miscellaneous sounds like a safe bet.

I'm in a disagreement with my coach over whether or not an answer should be acceptable, and he suggested asking here.

In a worksheet round, in which spelling does not count, the answer given was Entemology. The answer was Entomology. It was ruled incorrect, citing the similarity to etymology. I believe the deciding factor is the "n", differentiating it from etymology. Also the pronunciation change would be only very slight.

This did not change the outcome of the match, as both teams spelled it the same way.

What are your opinions on the acceptability of this answer?

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Post by quizbowllee »

I would have given it to you. The "n" makes the difference.

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Post by AKKOLADE »

GiveMeBrindleeOrDeath wrote:I would have given it to you. The "n" makes the difference.
Quoting dis post because I be agreeing with it.
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Post by AndyShootsAndyScores »

GiveMeBrindleeOrDeath wrote:I would have given it to you. The "n" makes the difference.
Andy Knowles
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Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) »

GiveMeBrindleeOrDeath wrote:I would have given it to you. The "n" makes the difference.
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Post by The Time Keeper »

GiveMeBrindleeOrDeath wrote:I would have given it to you. The "n" makes the difference.

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Post by dtaylor4 »

GiveMeBrindleeOrDeath wrote:I would have given it to you. The "n" makes the difference.

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Post by STPickrell »

You got the consonants in order. If I were in the room, I'd take it.

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Post by Tegan »

GiveMeBrindleeOrDeath wrote:I would have given it to you. The "n" makes the difference.

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Post by Howard »

Tegan wrote:
GiveMeBrindleeOrDeath wrote:I would have given it to you. The "n" makes the difference.
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Post by swwFCqb »

Howard wrote:
Tegan wrote:
GiveMeBrindleeOrDeath wrote:I would have given it to you. The "n" makes the difference.
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Post by The Infanta »

Te lo hubiera dado. La "n" hace la diferencia.
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Post by BobGHHS »

This is inaccurate... the answer given was Entymology, with a "y" in there... which is why i didn't give them credit... I may have been being picky, but after pronouncing it, I was looking for a distinction from Etymology, which obviously is not the same thing. After thinking about it, I probably should have accepted it... but the fact that we were winning by like 50 points at this point (in OAC 50 points is about the equivalent of like 600 in NAQT) negated it all anyways.
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Post by Howard »

BobGHHS wrote:the answer given was Entymology, with a "y" in there....
That's a rather significant difference. I might have tried to get a clarification from the team (if allowed) at this point. Gotta say, now I'm leaning toward no credit.
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Post by AndyShootsAndyScores »

BobGHHS wrote:This is inaccurate... the answer given was Entymology, with a "y" in there... which is why i didn't give them credit... I may have been being picky, but after pronouncing it, I was looking for a distinction from Etymology, which obviously is not the same thing. After thinking about it, I probably should have accepted it... but the fact that we were winning by like 50 points at this point (in OAC 50 points is about the equivalent of like 600 in NAQT) negated it all anyways.
Still, the "n" was there. If the answer was etymology, but spelled etimology, would you still not have given it to them?
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Post by AKKOLADE »

AndyShootsAndyScores wrote:
BobGHHS wrote:This is inaccurate... the answer given was Entymology, with a "y" in there... which is why i didn't give them credit... I may have been being picky, but after pronouncing it, I was looking for a distinction from Etymology, which obviously is not the same thing. After thinking about it, I probably should have accepted it... but the fact that we were winning by like 50 points at this point (in OAC 50 points is about the equivalent of like 600 in NAQT) negated it all anyways.
Still, the "n" was there. If the answer was etymology, but spelled etimology, would you still not have given it to them?
This is the stance that I'm taking as well. The n is what is key in this case and shows a differentiation in knowledge.
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Post by Tegan »

I don't mind worksheets as a single aspect of the competition ... so long as they are blanaced and well written (blanced in terms of a distribution), and that both teams get the same questions to avoid one team getting the "easy" set. I think in certain settings, they are fine.

However, let's agree that choosing an answer that could be easily misinterpretable ...... maybe even a Manet/Monet with a sloppy o/a ... is not appropriate for this type of questioning. Rule two forwriting qorksheet questions: the answer must not be easily confusable with another related term.


I would not only have given the team credit for all the reasons above, but bsaed on poor question writing, I am inclined to favor the team vs. a more strict interpretation, which favors the question writer (a person not even competing, but by virtue of a bad question is interjecting themselves into the competition).

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Post by BobGHHS »

Yeah, I wrote the question though... and didn't even think about it when I did... although Ohio worksheet rounds tend to do alot of similar terms with "DO NOT ACCEPT _____" for whatever the other term may be. In hindsight, I should have probably accepted it at that point, but again, it didn't end up mattering, so I will just remember not to make that mistake again.
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Post by AKKOLADE »

[quote="BobGHHS"][/quote]

Just to clarify, I don't think anyone's really trying to take you behind the woodshed for this. It was a defensible decision and I think everyone can understand why it was made.
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Post by BobGHHS »

Oh no, I don't feel that way... I appreciate the feedback, because not only is it sort of a trap question for the kids, its also a difficult decision to render on acceptability... and if it is accepted in one room and not in another and that one point means the difference in seeding or winning a bracket (OAC generally uses total points instead of ppg), then it would be bs.
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Post by First Chairman »

Spelling only counts whenever it matters, even when it is said that spelling doesn't count.
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Post by Howard »

leftsaidfred wrote:
AndyShootsAndyScores wrote:Still, the "n" was there. If the answer was etymology, but spelled etimology, would you still not have given it to them?
This is the stance that I'm taking as well. The n is what is key in this case and shows a differentiation in knowledge.
Certainly, having the "n" there helps your case. What I'd be looking for is a clear distinction between "entomology" and "etymology." My concern is that "entymology" shows none. It's as much like one -ology as the other. To allow this could start a dangerous precedent that "entymology" could be accepted as correct for either, and that'd be a bad idea for obvious reasons.

There's no question I'd accept "etimology" for "etymology." It's phonetically correct and it's similarity to "entomology" (or anything else) is less than its similarity to "etymology."
leftsaidfred wrote:Just to clarify, I don't think anyone's really trying to take you behind the woodshed for this. It was a defensible decision and I think everyone can understand why it was made.
Absolutely not. I can see where this could go either way. If I were the moderator, I could see any decision I made being protested to TD by one team or the other. It's an unfortunate situation all the way around, but I think an important principle is that it's incumbent on the player/team to provide an answer that distinguishes itself from incorrect answers.

edit:fixed quote tags.
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Post by AndyShootsAndyScores »

Howard wrote:Certainly, having the "n" there helps your case. What I'd be looking for is a clear distinction between "entomology" and "etymology." My concern is that "entymology" shows none. It's as much like one -ology as the other. To allow this could start a dangerous precedent that "entymology" could be accepted as correct for either, and that'd be a bad idea for obvious reasons.

There's no question I'd accept "etimology" for "etymology." It's phonetically correct and it's similarity to "entomology" (or anything else) is less than its similarity to "etymology."
The "n" being there shows that the player knows the difference between the two. It wouldn't set a precedent, because "entymology" is still unacceptable for "etymology."

You're saying that you'd accept "etimology" for "etymology" based on prononciation, but yet, you wouldn't accept "entymology" for "entomology." Last time I checked, "y" can take on the short vowel sound just as much as "o" can, making it phonetically correct.
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Post by Howard »

AndyShootsAndyScores wrote:The "n" being there shows that the player knows the difference between the two. It wouldn't set a precedent, because "entymology" is still unacceptable for "etymology."
This isn't so clear. One could make a reasonable argument that if "entymology" is acceptable for "entomology," that it should be equally acceptable for "etymology," since the spelling variation is equal for the two words. The whole in this argument, of course, is the phonetic pronunciation difference. No matter how you slice it, "entymology" won't come out sounding like "etymology" if you pronounce all the letters in any normal manner. This doesn't, however, fully demonstrate that "entymology" demonstrates clear knowledge of the correct answer. There are several things that need to be established to determine this, such as whether the player/team knows the correct pronunciation for each. In most cases, we're ill equipped to make such a distinction in a worksheet round. I'll even go so far as to say that I believe it's likely that "entymology" likely indicates the team knows the proper answer. But it's still missing that smoking gun that eliminates doubt. The whole problem in this case, is that there's a similarly spelled word with a different meaning. If the word "etymology" didn't exist, there'd be no problem. But it does. Hence, problem.
AndyShootsAndyScores wrote:You're saying that you'd accept "etimology" for "etymology" based on prononciation, but yet, you wouldn't accept "entymology" for "entomology." Last time I checked, "y" can take on the short vowel sound just as much as "o" can, making it phonetically correct.
Not just pronunciation. Also the fact that it doesn't particularly resemble another word that would be incorrect and then cloud the picture. If the given answer were "etomology," we'd be in a discussion similar to the one we're having about "entymology."
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Post by jrbarry »

Personally (and this is simply a pet peve of mine), I get tired of haggling over pronunciation issues. I probably would avoid a question with an answer like entymology or etymology or whatever. It is almost like that question sets up the argument over pronunciation.

Next think I know I'll be at Nationals and some Yankee moderator will not accept "Flar-duh" as an answer from my kids demanding "Flo-ri-da" instead. :-) Sorry, it's the Foghorn Leghorn in me that just comes out occasionally.

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Post by AndyShootsAndyScores »

Howard wrote:This isn't so clear. One could make a reasonable argument that if "entymology" is acceptable for "entomology," that it should be equally acceptable for "etymology," since the spelling variation is equal for the two words. The whole in this argument, of course, is the phonetic pronunciation difference. No matter how you slice it, "entymology" won't come out sounding like "etymology" if you pronounce all the letters in any normal manner. This doesn't, however, fully demonstrate that "entymology" demonstrates clear knowledge of the correct answer. There are several things that need to be established to determine this, such as whether the player/team knows the correct pronunciation for each. In most cases, we're ill equipped to make such a distinction in a worksheet round. I'll even go so far as to say that I believe it's likely that "entymology" likely indicates the team knows the proper answer. But it's still missing that smoking gun that eliminates doubt. The whole problem in this case, is that there's a similarly spelled word with a different meaning. If the word "etymology" didn't exist, there'd be no problem. But it does. Hence, problem.

Not just pronunciation. Also the fact that it doesn't particularly resemble another word that would be incorrect and then cloud the picture. If the given answer were "etomology," we'd be in a discussion similar to the one we're having about "entymology."
I believe that the "n" clearly and without a doubt shows that the player(s) knows how the study is generally spelled (or, in the case of etymology, doesn't know). Consonants are not as interchangeable as vowels within the written English language.

This argument could go on for days, and I'm afraid I've run out of retorts.
Andy Knowles
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University of Alabama, '12

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