Southern California 2007-08

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Post by ntan »

ihavenoidea wrote:
ntan wrote:with, samo not attending, and half our regular team a missing, and la jolla/torrey not as strong as they usually are,i actually will not be too surprised if rb qualifies 3 for nationals (assuming a 23-24 team field)

good luck rb, hope you guys will do well :grin:
I'm sorry to hear that arcadia is not at full strength this tournament. You guys have always given us a good match in the past. We look forward to playing you guys at USC, where perhaps your full team will be present?

Are your players absent due to Jeopardy callbacks?
yea, half our team a is gone because of that. the usc tournament (which coincides with an ACT test date) will also mean that our team a isnt at full strength. o well. at least the younger members will get more playing time

edit: o wow. this tournament really looks totally wide open.

edit #2: rb, i bet your team is also missing a good number of people due to band right? same here. gl to your band too
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Post by mcalmvp »

ntan wrote:
ihavenoidea wrote:
ntan wrote:with, samo not attending, and half our regular team a missing, and la jolla/torrey not as strong as they usually are,i actually will not be too surprised if rb qualifies 3 for nationals (assuming a 23-24 team field)

good luck rb, hope you guys will do well :grin:
I'm sorry to hear that arcadia is not at full strength this tournament. You guys have always given us a good match in the past. We look forward to playing you guys at USC, where perhaps your full team will be present?

Are your players absent due to Jeopardy callbacks?
yea, half our team a is gone because of that. the usc tournament (which coincides with an ACT test date) will also mean that our team a isnt at full strength. o well. at least the younger members will get more playing time

edit: o wow. this tournament really looks totally wide open.

edit #2: rb, i bet your team is also missing a good number of people due to band right? same here. gl to your band too
which band tourney is this week? Arcadia? Chino?
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Post by ihavenoidea »

It's the Arcadia tournament
Surprisingly we're not missing people due to band. Apparently no bandos are on quizbowl! =)

Your band is 3 times the size of ours so maybe thats why you lose ppl to band tournaments

EDIT: you're still coming right ntan? aren't you the captain?
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Post by ntan »

i should be able to make it to uci in time for most of the tournament, but i'll be missing at usc because of the ACT :sad:
anyway good luck to all 3 of your teams tomorrow
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Post by ihavenoidea »

UCI was a blast

Arcadia...those games against you were pretty awesome! Both, but especially the second showed off both our prowess. Ntan, you had some amazing powers
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Post by ntan »

you guys were awesome too!
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Post by ihavenoidea »

Just gauging field for next week's USC, who's going??

Rancho Bernardo will probably be sending 2-3 teams
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Post by ntan »

2, possibly 3 teams from arcadia
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Post by ihavenoidea »

MC, you know theres a tournament at Rancho Bernardo on the 12th? All other San Diego teams as well, this is very close to home compared to the usual tournaments. I do hope that MC and Westview can come. For those in the LA area, a 1 1/2 hour drive isn't bad. Its fun to hang out with your friends in the car I think.

Also updated rankings based on TWAIN, CBCT, and Trojan Warz

1. SaMo A
2. RB A (Jeff's team)
3. Arcadia A (I still think they are a better team than TP despite TWAIN seeding)
4. TP A
5. RB B (Others)
6. La Jolla A
7. Edison A
8. TP B
9. Edison B (It's very unusual, in all RB B vs Edison B matches, the game has come down to the last question. I do believe that Edison will field a very competitive team next year)
9. Carlsbad (They have great potential to be a great team.)
10. SaMo B
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Post by Julie RS »

ihavenoidea wrote:MC, you know theres a tournament at Rancho Bernardo on the 12th? All other San Diego teams as well, this is very close to home compared to the usual tournaments. I do hope that MC and Westview can come. For those in the LA area, a 1 1/2 hour drive isn't bad. Its fun to hang out with your friends in the car I think.

Also updated rankings based on TWAIN, CBCT, and Trojan Warz

1. SaMo A
2. RB A (Jeff's team)
3. Arcadia A (I still think they are a better team than TP despite TWAIN seeding)
4. TP A
5. RB B (Others)
6. La Jolla A
7. Edison A
8. TP B
9. Edison B (It's very unusual, in all RB B vs Edison B mat, ches, the game has come down to the last question. I do believe that Edison will field a very competitive team next year)
9. Carlsbad (They have great potential to be a great team.)
10. SaMo B
My daughter plays on Edison B. She's a Freshman, though she has other experience from being on Jeopardy.

Her father and I met playing on Edison's team, many years ago, so she's got Quiz Bowl in her blood.
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Post by ntan »

yea, the rankings are about right, samo is doing well, as expected, and rancho has pretty impressive depth with their A and B teams. Torrey's A and B teams are also pretty strong. Oh, and thanks for being generous with the ranking. Going down the list, I feel that La Jolla and Edison A should be switched. I think Edison, being a well-coached and organized team will be able to improve as the year goes on. As for their team B, their knowledge is quite good, although their speed on the buzzer seems to be hindering them. Hopefully in 2008, we'll finally get our full A to play in a match since TWAIN. As for Arcadia as a whole, i think we need to play more consistently, and avoid random loses due to losses in concentration

hey edison, rancho, torrey: are you guys going to PACE-NSC? at the moment, our advisor seems pretty lukewarm with regard to out of state tournaments :cry:

i wonder how dwight and some of the guys who've been around for a while will compare us to SoCal teams from prior years.
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Post by ihavenoidea »

My team is rather reluctant to do two out of state tournaments. We seem to feel that expenses outweigh the benefits. I do want to go though... I wonder if PACE will let us play with a hybrid team? =D

Edison has been rather close with La Jolla every match they've played. They lost to La Jolla at UCI, but won at UCLA

Neiman, I know personally what you mean when you say losing concentration *sigh*

The general consensus here is that the best SoCal teams in history played in 2003. I too wonder how we compare with historic teams.
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Post by ntan »

well, the Santa Monica team of 05-06 was pretty crazy, ditto dwight's team from back in the day
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Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) »

I think that you would be shocked how much going to an out of state tournament or 2 will help you. I realize that California is much more isolated then some places, but if you were to go to the Weekend of Quizbowl (or any of the good tournaments around the nation) you will get a much better experience playing the best in the country more often as opposed to running into the same SoCal teams. While there is certainly something to be said for supporting your circuit, I think there is just as much to be said for mixing it up with the rest of the country (especially if you aren't exactly from the "top" region, wherever that happens to be).

Also, FYI, while NAQT is considered by many teams to be the national championship, PACE is just as legit as a national championship (more legit in my opinion, but whatever). It's not just some other out of state tournament.

Another idea you guys might want to consider is going to college tournaments so that you can play harder competition on higher level questions, which is another way to get more exposure to stuff in harder questions. I would be shocked if you weren't allowed to go play at places like UCLA or wherever.
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Post by ihavenoidea »

The thing is though, cost is a major issue for teams in SoCal. Due to the lack of density, cost is proportionally higher if we wish to play high caliber teams. Cost of tickets + hotel....sigh.

I actually do think playing at college tournaments would be a great idea. Ill ask some people in the college circuit. We could even write packets (if they're half decent)!
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Post by First Chairman »

Fortunately or unfortunately the cost to get out to the West Coast is always going to be difficult. We just live in a nation that is just that wide. :)

I will admit that in the past I (as part of PACE) consider locations to hold the NSC based on the activity from certain regions of the country. If there are a critical number of teams that are willing to travel to a national, I will consider looking at hosts in that region for the NSC. This way we could share the burden of travel costs. Unfortunately, the representation from the West Coast has never really reached that critical mass. (And for that matter, the "South.") Until it does, there won't be much effort to bring a national to the West Coast unless you're Chip Beall... and even so, that also affects the way I and our group would select a potential nationals site.

Of course now our selection criteria have changed sufficiently to say that unless there is a critical number of individuals who philosophically believe in what PACE is doing... we'll see.
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Post by cvdwightw »

ihavenoidea wrote:I actually do think playing at college tournaments would be a great idea. Ill ask some people in the college circuit. We could even write packets (if they're half decent)!
UCLA's Aztlan Cupon January 19 requires no packet, and the fee structure is more-or-less standard for Southern California, so if you can get a team together for MLK weekend, I'm sure they'd love to see you. Last time we had a combined high school/college field was 2001 or 2002.
ihavenoidea wrote:The general consensus here is that the best SoCal teams in history played in 2003. I too wonder how we compare with historic teams.
My team took T-8th at NAQT HSNCT (probably should've been higher, damn Elijah Muhammad), but throughout the year we took lopsided (4xx-1xx) losses to San Dieguito and Dana Hills and had a losing record against Edison (all very good teams); I think we only lost to Torrey Pines by forfeit (another very good team), but they took us to overtime at least once, and Santa Monica built the foundation of their dominating several-year run in 2003 as well, plus Scripps Ranch dominated Academic League and placed second at NAC. Best team I've ever seen in California was probably 2002 Los Al; people forget, it wasn't just Charles, Brendan could've carried a team by himself too and Zac was a pretty good player in his own right. I think one of the recent Santa Monica teams (2006?) might have been able to give them a run for their money. There were also a few national champions to come out of SoCal in the mid-90s; in particular, any of the David Farris-led Edison teams would have to get mentioned in a discussion of best historical SoCal teams.

That said, the biggest development since I played is the number and quality of teams coming out of Academic League. In 2003 we played at the last NAQT tournament down there and beat all the SD teams by over 200 points. Now there's at least four or five good teams coming out there; add in traditional powers Edison and Arcadia and ever-dominant Santa Monica and this is the deepest field since 2003, and with the proliferation of tournaments (there were no tournaments between November 2002 and March 2003) this has the potential to be the deepest field ever in SoCal.
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Post by Auroni »

Yeah, I'm from the Torrey Pines A team this year (we only switched with the B team once). Santa Monica A is probably going to remain at the top this year, followed by a Rancho Bernardo A (Jeff's team). I think Arcadia and TP are around the same level, but it's too early for anything to be clearly defined
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Post by cvdwightw »

Are there any results from last week's Rancho Bernardo tournament? Did it happen? Are there new teams being brought into the fold that we should watch out for?
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Post by ihavenoidea »

I'm sorry, I thought everyone had access to the tournament results

1. TP A
2. TP B
3. La Jolla A
4. Scripps A


There were a total of 7 teams in attendance.

From what I saw, La Jolla A should have gotten the 2nd seed. They managed to beat TP A in the playoffs, but due to TP A having a superior prelim record, they were edged out of qualification.
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Post by grapesmoker »

I just wanted to drop by and give a thumbs-up to the La Jolla squad, if any of them read this page. I graduated from LJHS in 2000 and it looks like you guys are doing so much more these days than we ever had the chance to do. I'm really glad to see that happening, and maybe the next time I'm in town, I'll drop by and say hello. I assume Del Rio is still in charge over there?
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Post by Auroni »

Anyone attending the March 1st tournament at UC Irvine?

TP A will be there, but we will most likely send just one team.
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Post by ntan »

arcadia is going, number of teams tba.

are any of you guys considering attending UCLA's PACE tournament should they host one?
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Post by Auroni »

I don't think we can make it, as we're tied down by a host of other commitments this season.

I'd love to go though, but none of us have any PACE experience :sad:
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Post by ihavenoidea »

RB is going two teams I believe.

Looking forward to playing on a good set and a good field
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Post by Byko »

jpn wrote:I'd love to go though, but none of us have any PACE experience :sad:
Don't let that stop you, though--most teams don't have much (if any) experience on the PACE format because usually, the only tournament in that format has been the NSC. Last year, there was a regular season set that Matt Weiner had put together, and this year, he's doing that again, plus there's another set that I put together and is being used at four or five locations (all in the East--sorry) this month.
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Post by First Chairman »

The rarity of NSC format is both a blessing and a curse in its own way. Many times we have observed how being used to a game format may skew the results of a national event towards those programs that primarily run in that format. (I can think of Team Florida as a big example; so far no other Florida team has won a national championship in any other format.)

So don't be discouraged because NSC format is not prolific. We are obviously trying to spread the wealth (as it were), but we probably won't be doing tons of sets like NAQT does. On the other hand, everyone has to prepare for the NSC's nuances and depth of knowledge, and coupled with our traditionally strong top-to-bottom field, we think we put up the best challenge on academic questions among any of the nationals out there. (Not to mention our very collegial atmosphere. Need to promote our ABC's of the NSC.)

In May, I will release last year's NSC set to all teams who have registered to compete, as well as all 10 previous NSC sets for preparation purposes. You can request copies of all but last year's copies if you wanted to know what we go for, but last year's set is not available until you register.
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Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) »

Auroni -
They already covered the fact that the PACE format is not used pretty much anywhere outside of nationals, but I will add that the actual questions will probably be like what you would find in an ACF Fall packet, just put in a different format.
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Post by Auroni »

Deesy Does It wrote:Auroni -
They already covered the fact that the PACE format is not used pretty much anywhere outside of nationals, but I will add that the actual questions will probably be like what you would find in an ACF Fall packet, just put in a different format.
nice of you to mention that. It would be incredibly nice to step up to ACF Fall level, but I can't think of any viable way to introduce it to the majority of our team without them getting discouraged.
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Post by ntan »

Placings from Arcadia's Tournament

1) La Jolla A (11-0, 9-0 prelim)
2) Edison B (8-3, 7-2 prelim)
3) Rancho Bernardo (8-3, 7-2 prelim)
4) Edison A (7-4, 7-2 prelim)

La Jolla played well, recording an undefeated record. teams ranked 2-4 all lost to La Jolla and an addition game to one of the teams ranked 2-4. This created a ring of death (although triangle may be more apt. Rancho fielded a B/C team hybrid (although ihavenoidea could probably confirm this). Other surprises included Edison B beating their Team A in the playoff.
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Post by ihavenoidea »

It was technically a C team, since Anurag, Oleg (main constituents of team B) did not attend.

Thanks to ntan for running such a great tournament![/list]
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Post by ntan »

my bad. I thought kevin was a team B member.

oh, and jpn, is torrey planning on attending the PACE tournament on 4/5?
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Post by Kaisuopai »

Grapesmoker: I am from La Jolla A, and am sad to say Del Rio is no longer with us, having abdicated his honored position to go work for Bishops. The traitor.

I am still happily surprised that we won in Arcadia; our strongest player did very well this tournament, despite being handicapped with a cold.

Also, do any of you know whether there are still available spaces for teams at the NAQT nationals in Chicago? I am afraid of the possibility that we qualified too late, and it would be a great help if someone could direct me to information either confirming or disproving my fears.
-redacted-
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Post by ihavenoidea »

Hey Kai,

check the field at NAQT. Click 2008 HSNCT then scroll down to field. It should say field full when there are too many schools
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Post by Matthew D »

wife counted them today 85 was what she said I think...
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Post by ntan »

hey kai,

i don't think there's reason to worry. last year, (correct me if i'm wrong) all waitlisted teams were included in the final field of 160.
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Post by Kaisuopai »

Thank you for the quick reply. I remembered that I should check the NAQT site right after I posted, go figure...(sheepish)

I look forward to meeting some of your teams at Chicago, then. :)
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Re: Southern California 2007-08

Post by Warbourne »

Well this was a nice find from Google. :)

I'm a player on the Fallbrook High team in North county myself and it honestly really is sad that we're never mentioned in anything despite the fact that we've been pretty successful for the past 5 years or so on the Varsity and JV levels. But I'm not complaining. :)
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San Diego County 2008

Post by Warbourne »

I'm not sure if this is a good topic to start since there's the Southern Cal thread going around (but, of course, the San Diego League is just a small part of it) , but oh well, I really want some feedback from my local area...

Good teams like Torrey Pines, Rancho Bernardo, and Southwest come from here and they participate in big tournaments as well.

so...feedback? Opinions?
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Re: San Diego County 2008

Post by AKKOLADE »

I'm going to merge this back into the Southern Cal thread and advise it be treated as a call for discussion on the particular league there, as I don't think there's evidence enough for an individual thread. Of course, if there is, I'll split it back out.
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Re: Southern California 2007-08

Post by ntan »

I don't remember Southwest doing particulary well at the odd NAQT tournament then attend now and then.
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Re: Southern California 2007-08

Post by Warbourne »

I think they're only really good in their own district play. Our team A nearly beat them twice in a recent local tournament we had this weekend, and we only lost by a couple of toss-ups.
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Re: Southern California 2007-08

Post by ihavenoidea »

Err...I have never seen Fallbrook attend a pyramidal tossup tournament. Perhaps you are talking about Academic League?
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Re: Southern California 2007-08

Post by cvdwightw »

A few comments, then questions, then a suggestion:

Southwest seems to be some sort of Academic League power, and back when I played them on something between Academic League and "mainstream" questions in 2001 (2 or 3-line tossups and 2-part 20 point bonuses, IIRC) they weren't that bad. I think part of it is that Southwest brings like 8 or 10 players to a tournament, registers a single team, and then tries to sub them all in and out (I think I've seen 7 or 8 players in a game before). At an NAQT tournament you can't do that and expect to do well; you need your best players to get into some kind of rhythm to succeed. Watching their coach it's been obvious that they know the answers (or at least he thinks they should or do), but they've got some kind of timidity about buzzing, and I'm guessing that this lack of rhythm has something to do with it.

Fallbrook attended a NAQT tournament in May 2003. I remember crushing their freshman team. They haven't been back since, to my knowledge.

Carlsbad made an excellent transition from Academic League to NAQT this year. They were sort of out of it at TWAIN due to problems understanding the format, but midway through CBCT they started to figure things out, had a good game against a top team and made the upper bracket.

Questions: Does the winner of Academic League get a berth in NAC? If so, what kind of financial incentive is there to go the NAC and not, for example, apply to PACE as a wild card?

Also, why does Academic League seem so "monolithic and complacent" (to quote :kenj: ) ? Shady protest resolutions, requiring moderators to write current events questions directly out of Time, banning the use of certain buzzer systems due to some perceived "home-buzzer advantage" but requiring coaches to submit 6/6 each? And this is just stuff I can find online without having actually played Academic League (you are encouraged to share your firsthand knowledge with the QB Wiki). Oh, speaking of coaches submitting 6/6 each, who edits the questions? Or is it just you hope that you get questions written by the coaches who can write good questions and not by those who can't?

Suggestion: Correct me if I am wrong, but Academic League is traditionally a winter/spring activity that is currently in the middle of the season. Rancho Bernardo tried running a NAQT tournament at the beginning of the season, and this seems like it would be a good idea if word was spread about it again during Academic League season. If Rancho Bernardo (or any other school in the area) were to hold an "end-of-season tournament" (suppose on an IS-A set) for novice/JV teams and varsity teams that did not make the playoffs, would this be more likely to attract teams? All of this year's sets are spoken for, but someone could probably get something like IS-63A or 65A from last year and run it.

Anyway, and I think everyone on the board would agree with me, Santa Monica would absolutely crush Fallbrook on pyramidal questions this year. That 575-15 pasting of Edison (and it really should have been 600+ but they double-negged the last tossup) was the most impressive performance I've seen in SoCal in a long, long time, especially considering who it was against (probably the best since 2002 Los Al played a 3-way championship match and doubled the other two teams' scores combined).
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Re: Southern California 2007-08

Post by Warbourne »

First of all, yes, I apologize, I did mean Academic League when I posted my last. :P

Second, I think Fallbrook never goes to any NAQT tournaments because of financial stuff (i.e. we're poor xD). I think the Varsity team would all agree that we'd want to, but we probably won't.

And yeah, what is up with the Academic League set-up? First they outlawed all other buzzer systems except for 'The Judge', then (from 2 years ago) want coaches to submit or order 6 questions and submit it to the League. I'm not really sure, but it's quite possible that information could be leaked to schools.
As for the winner, I guess they do go to the NAC tournaments, but I only learned that from the QB wiki.

Also yes, it runs from February up to the end of April, when the championships are held.

EDIT: Are you sure that 2003? I talked to a couple of people who were freshmen that year and were on the team and apparently they don't know anything about it. Maybe you're referring to some other level or year.
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mcalmvp
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Re: Southern California 2007-08

Post by mcalmvp »

First, to respond to Dwight: The questions are edited (and edited every week). The current events aren't written by moderators, but written by a designated person in charge of current events (which aren't from Time). The questions are subsequently edited. I don't think I'm allowed to say anymore, but there are definitely edits. Yes, San Diego academic league in general (though I admit I can only really say a lot about North County Academic League) do some archaic things, but they do attempt to adapt and change.

To answer Warbourne, no they did not outlaw anything but the Judge. It's just that the judge is the easiest and cheapest buzzer system to use under the new rules (I believe the rule was done to get rid of older, archaic buzzers).

As for the question submitting system, in my opinion it's no different than questions being submitted to NAQT or other types of HS or College quizbowl organizations (or tournaments). Coaches never know when their questions will be asked (or how they will be edited) and honestly the issue of leaking is not much of an issue, if at all. (This is according to my knowledge of NCAL)

Dwight, your suggestion about having an IS-A end of the season tournament is a good one. However, there is one issue: money. For most schools, there's not so much money left after the season to spread elsewhere (albeit, attending a local tournament...especially in an easily accessible school like RB, Torrey...isn't that expensive really). The best time would probably be Dec or Jan before the "AL season." However, this would require a lot of getting out the word (and reaching out to good SD teams not already doing NAQT like Westview, RBV, or Mt. Carmel).
mcalmvp
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Re: Southern California 2007-08

Post by mcalmvp »

As to my honest assessment for Fallbrook in NAQT:

Fallbrook will be facing an uphill battle to defeat the best SoCal NAQT teams of the present time (San Mon., Torrey, RB, Arcadia).

Now in terms of NCAL (as I am currently looking up the website), Fallbrook is definitely doing pretty well in NCAL's North Division with a pretty good record of 5-0 (beating traditional North Division powerhouse RBV by 12 in a pretty decent scoring game [for those not in the loop with the AL scoring system, 12 would be the equivalent of winning by 55-65 points in a game where both teams are scoring at least 200 points each]). However, the North Division is BY FAR the weakest of the three divisions of NCAL. For instance, we can take a look at RB which has a similar record of 5-0. RB, however, plays in a league that includes Westview, Mt. Carmel (pretty good quizbowl schools) San Pasqual, and Poway (decent ones when compared to the average SoCal HS team that plays actively in the NAQT circuit). I will also note that RB absolutely destroyed Mt. Carmel, a good AL team and their closest competition in the division (btw, curse you RB for defeating my alma mater :razz: ).

I encourage Fallbrook to come to NAQT tournaments and I think it would be a good experience, especially since Fallbrook seems to be rising from its rut from years before. However, I honestly don't believe Fallbrook will do well against teams like San Mon., Arcadia, Torrey, or RB. I dunno how competitive they'd be against Edison or Carlsbad.

That said, if Fallbrook does real well in NCAL finals in April, I'll probably do some reassessing. However RB is my clear favorite to sweep through NCAL finals and win county (and thus, I believe, qualify for PACE along with their HSNCT bid).
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Re: Southern California 2007-08

Post by Julie RS »

Anyway, and I think everyone on the board would agree with me, Santa Monica would absolutely crush Fallbrook on pyramidal questions this year. That 575-15 pasting of Edison (and it really should have been 600+ but they double-negged the last tossup) was the most impressive performance I've seen in SoCal in a long, long time, especially considering who it was against (probably the best since 2002 Los Al played a 3-way championship match and doubled the other two teams' scores combined).


Edison was playing that game with one A team member and three B team members who had never played together as a team. Many of the strong players from Edison had other commitments on March 1st and couldn't play.

Edison went on place third at the tournament and had a 390-125 game against Santa Monica later in the day.
Julie
ihavenoidea
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Re: Southern California 2007-08

Post by ihavenoidea »

Julie RS,

At the Arcadia tournament, my team (Rancho Bernardo) was able to beat Edison A twice, but lost to Edison B. When Edison A played Edison B, they lost on the last tossup (I believe). Any explanation for this unusual occurence? I believe the A team and the B team both had their usual members.

That being said, Edison has an extremely balanced teams. I applaud the coach for knowing exactly where their player fits best.
Zhao Zhang
Rancho Bernardo High School '09
Julie RS
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Re: Southern California 2007-08

Post by Julie RS »

ihavenoidea wrote:Julie RS,

At the Arcadia tournament, my team (Rancho Bernardo) was able to beat Edison A twice, but lost to Edison B. When Edison A played Edison B, they lost on the last tossup (I believe). Any explanation for this unusual occurence? I believe the A team and the B team both had their usual members.

That being said, Edison has an extremely balanced teams. I applaud the coach for knowing exactly where their player fits best.
It's all a matter of the questions. :) My daughter, Maddie, who is on Edison B, sat through one game at Arcadia and I knew that she didn't know the answers to any of the questions, but she got six toss ups in a different game.

I was at Arcadia and I think that the four Edison B players really wanted to prove something to Edison A. Edison A had beat them by 10 points earlier in the day, so when it came time for a rematch, Edison B was motivated. Luckily the questions that came up were things that they knew.
Julie
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