The huge high school quiz bowl community

[Matt Weiner]

It wouldn't be anti-intellectualism; it's be the fact that someone (not a licensed teacher or curriculum expert, mind you) is telling me that a major part of my career and point of pride for me has essentially been for naught.

This gets more to the heart of the issue...what does being a "licensed teacher" or "curriculum expert" have to do with anything? Is quizbowl just something that talented students go and do as an extension of their academic studies, like an advanced math lecture taught by a visiting specialist once a month, or is it really comparable to the big-time extracurricular competitive activities--chess, debate, even sports? Certainly no one would claim that the legions of people who spend their full working life providing support for the high school chess, debate, or football communities that their knowledge and opinions have equal or lesser value to those of a randomly selected teacher who has no exposure to the mainstream of those activities. We seem to have an inferiority complex about quizbowl that prevents it from being treated like comparable things.

[Sima Guang Hater]

I'd actually kind of like to see this mystery community. I've always wondered what quiz bowl was like from Kansas going west until you reach Cali. Colorado has a decent state tourney, if i recall correctly... other than that, I am not really too sure. I know Kansas has something but they stay strictly within the state.

You can ask Eric Mukherjee, from Brown. He's from Kansas.

(Maybe mentioning his name will get him here.)

Ugh. Kansas quiz bowl is one-liners sorted by categories. 16 tossups like E.T. Chuck said. Although there's also a TV thing that's somewhat closer to NAQT with bonuses and whatnot. Its popular, and its a lot of fun, but it really isn't true quizbowl, unfortunately. Something tells me that the places like the Dakotas might be similar, if not worse.

What school did Andrew Feist go to? Its nice to know some of us found our way out of the QB dead zone.

[Sima Guang Hater]

It wouldn't be anti-intellectualism; it's be the fact that someone (not a licensed teacher or curriculum expert, mind you) is telling me that a major part of my career and point of pride for me has essentially been for naught.

This gets more to the heart of the issue...what does being a "licensed teacher" or "curriculum expert" have to do with anything? Is quizbowl just something that talented students go and do as an extension of their academic studies, like an advanced math lecture taught by a visiting specialist once a month, or is it really comparable to the big-time extracurricular competitive activities--chess, debate, even sports? Certainly no one would claim that the legions of people who spend their full working life providing support for the high school chess, debate, or football communities that their knowledge and opinions have equal or lesser value to those of a randomly selected teacher who has no exposure to the mainstream of those activities. We seem to have an inferiority complex about quizbowl that prevents it from being treated like comparable things.

Matt, this inferiority complex is because in large sections of the country, quizbowl is simply an extension of academic studies, like you say, and not an independent activity. Unfortunately, the Gospel of the Pyramidal Tossup hasn't made it to places like Kansas, and quizbowl there takes a backseat to debate, forensics, and math team simply because its an activity that takes almost no time to be any good at (their version of quizbowl, I mean). Our coach was our gifted teacher, and she devoted a lot of time to the activity (more than any one of us did), but she knew that quizbowl wasn't a serious thing for most people. Most of the people who showed up just came because it was something else to write on their resume.


I think the only way to rectify this is to somehow get organizations like NAQT and PACE into these regions, and force teams to actually work for titles; I'm trying to figure out how to do that, but I get the feeling its a bit of a futile exercise.

And Jerry is, no question, the Kenny Rodgers of quizbowl.

[STPickrell]

Something tells me that the places like the Dakotas might be similar, if not worse.

According to NAQT's webpage, there seems to be a pyramidal circuit growing in SD.

ND, I have no idea about. I think NAQT had tried to generate something but was not so successful.

Nebraska has something called ESU (educational service unit) quiz bowl. No idea where the questions come from, but they are probably similar to the one-liners of Kansas.

Colorado's knowledge bowl competition is a product of the Auk.

Wyoming and Montana, AFAIK, have some sort of Auk-provided competition, and the state champion gets to go to Panasonic. Montana used to have a statewide televised tournament of some sort but that has been cancelled.

I am aware of no quizbowl in NM or AZ, but NM sent a team to HSNCT, so there must be something there. Utah seems to have one NAQT tournament but I do not know what else goes on there.

Idaho has some science-heavy format that seems to serve as (1) Science Bowl regionals and (2) Panasonic rep determiner. One of their coaches is a poster here.

Oregon and Washington have some sort of Brain Bowl competition. I have no idea who writes those or more about them.

Alaska and Hawaii, no idea. Ditto for Nevada.

California is fairly well integrated into the 'mainstream' circuit and has been sending teams to the various nationals for many years now.

[Jeremy Gibbs Lemma]

hmmm .. I might try contacting someone from these places to see if they want to mirror our tourney.... if they would even be interested in hardcore questions for free or close to it.

[Frater Taciturnus]

I still disagree and think you're more like the Kenny Rogers of quizbowl. Not a perfect analogy, but I think its more accurate than Greg Maddux.

Wouldn't Jerry be the Kenny Rogers? Throwing coffee cups = throwing cameras.

I tried to find a ranking of all ML pitchers this year by adjusted ERA+ so I could point out that I'm just saying I'm within the top 70 writers or so, not necessarily the top 2 or 3, but I was unable to find free sortable stats that included anything close to that. But Maddux is at 97 according to Baseball Reference, so he's actually somewhat below the National League average. I'm certainly not the Jake Peavy of quizbowl writing like Seth Teitler is.

I was thinking more along the lines of matt being the C.C. Sabathia of quizbowl.

I think that that perhaps spreading the idea of a hypothetical "Book of Pyramids," or the idea of pyramidal questions, could be definitely compared to the idea of the christian church's struggles to convert the heathens, and save their souls. Although, I think our cause might be o a bit of a smaller scale.

I really like the idea of starting small, and slowly working up. If teams from area that haven't discovered pyramids find themselves at a tourney near you, try and hook them on the idea. If they are hooked, perhaps they will begin to spread word in other areas. Tremendous change has been brought to Alabama, among other areas. I guess all we can do is try to expand our influence, and expand our discourse.

[Matthew D]

Trust me on the spread in Alabama.. it has not been easy. I have to credit Lee with getting me started and I think that he has gotten more than just me started with pyramidal questions. Now I am not sure where Lee got started.
I do like your idea of starting out small and converting as we go. I have really tried to get more teams in our area to play and also to use pyramidal questions. Even junior high teams have started in some of the areas...

[Frater Taciturnus]

I do like your idea of starting out small and converting as we go. I have really tried to get more teams in our area to play and also to use pyramidal questions. Even junior high teams have started in some of the areas...

That's another point worth mentioning. If students start playing in middle schools a certain way, there would be no reason for them to go to high school and begin to use Bryce Avery or CBI created monstrocities.

I oversee the writing/editing of 68 matches for Virginia High School League play per season. While many districts only see the 7-8 matches used in their district tournament, I write 40 matches which can be used for 'regular season' competition (or even out of district scrimmages.)

This involves 2,380 tossups and 1,360 shorter tossups that can serve double-duty as short pyramids if need be. Last year, I wrote perhaps 45% of the questions; this year 60% of the questions will be written by me.

If you need question writing or other help, I and some others I know could help out with that.

[Jeremy Gibbs Lemma]

agreed... hook them when they are young .... it works well for tobacco companies

[Skepticism and Animal Feed]

Jerry is the Ty Cobb of quizbowl.

[grapesmoker]

Jerry is the Ty Cobb of quizbowl.

I'm the who of the what now?

[PaladinQB]

This gets more to the heart of the issue...what does being a "licensed teacher" or "curriculum expert" have to do with anything?

Not a darned thing, unless you're in a place where the rationale for funding/staffing quiz bowl competitions is tied up with the idea that it is intimately based in the curriculum. This is particularly true where boards of education are involved in the funding and the staffing. Presumably they're not paying for quiz bowl for its own sake. If this link is important, then presumably it's important that the people who are in charge of the league have expertise in that area.

To make another argument along this line, I've never heard of a coach at any level being fired for losing quiz bowl matches. I'm sure it has happened but it is a rare enough phenomenon to suggest that, in the eyes of many people who make these decisions, W's and L's aren't nearly as important as the idea that "the kids are learning something." This again suggests that people who write questions without benefit of curricular training are "inferior."

Mind you, it is not my purpose to associate myself with this line of thinking -- I'm pretty sure I would go further than most on here to say that I disagree with placing links between "the canon" and curricula at any level. I do, however, believe that many posters on here shouldn't be surprised when their tone is misinterpreted by some who read this board, because their experiences of quiz bowl (and goals from their participation in the game) are so disparate.

bms

Brian M. Saxton
Cleveland State '08
Bowling Green '02

[Stained Diviner]

Another thing to keep in mind in this whole discussion is that for many coaches question quality is not a huge issue. It is an issue in so far as they want questions that generally get answered and don't lead to controversies, but most are not sticklers about having academic content and rewarding important knowledge.

One of the problems with bringing pyramidal questions into a region that has a tradition of nonpyramidal is that they throw teams for loops. If your team practices on what everyone on this board would consider crappy questions, and then you go to a tournament that has what everyone on this board would consider good questions, the first reaction of most people is 'What the Hell? This is not what I practiced for.' Illinois may be ahead of a few states on this issue, but we are ahead by inches and still have a long way to go. Many states are well in front of us.

Furthermore, a lot of coaches are more interested in local issues, such as getting support from their school, recruiting students, finding local tournaments, getting fair treatment and good moderators at those tournaments, etc. The idea that question quality is more important generally is a minority viewpoint, even though that's the view held by me and people who post here.

Additionally, the tone here turns away old people like me. When somebody sees JR Barry getting blasted for wording one post poorly, they think that since they know less than he does they won't even bother. It eventually got worked out, but some people don't want to get involved in arguments.

I don't have solutions for these issues. Part of the problem is that people obsessed with quizbowl have different opinions and priorities than people who are not obsessed with it. A lot of people have built circuits and/or tournaments in which the questions were a secondary concern or the excitement of buzzing in half a second before your opponent has been part of the attraction. We still have not found a way to convert the heathens other than a very slow, one step at a time process.

[sweaver]

Furthermore, a lot of coaches are more interested in local issues, such as getting support from their school, recruiting students, finding local tournaments, getting fair treatment and good moderators at those tournaments, etc. The idea that question quality is more important generally is a minority viewpoint, even though that's the view held by me and people who post here.

Additionally, the tone here turns away old people like me. When somebody sees JR Barry getting blasted for wording one post poorly, they think that since they know less than he does they won't even bother. It eventually got worked out, but some people don't want to get involved in arguments.

Ditto both of these points. Courtesy on-line is often lacking, and part of that is the youth of the people who are often doing the on-line talking. Manners, people!

And to the other point, indeed, many coaches are more involved with keeping their own program alive than trying to better the universal lot of quiz bowl. You gotta have food and shelter before you really worry about self-actualization.

[hardeecoach]

I seem to be a latecomer to this discussion- but I found the response to the question posed by Mr. Barry, for another coach, interesting. As a Florida coach, I continually see coaches who have little or no knowledge of formats other that the state championship format (CAC) which some of you may recognize as Panasonic. Most have never heard of this board, which is why you never hear much from Florida, at least outside of the Panhandle area (aka south Alabama). The Panasonic format gets a lot of criticism from those outside Florida ( granted, it gets some from within as well). But the reason it is-- and will remain-- our state format, is that it was designed, and is written, by educators from across the state (i.e. "high school people"). Until we can get some sort of organizaton of coaches, or an established league, it will remain this way. I agree with Mr. Barry in that many coaches , especially for whom Nationals are not even a consideration, are not aware of many of the issues at the national level. Both Mr. Reinstein and sweaver summed it up well. Question quality doesn't matter to a coach who can't find tournaments to attend, or can't afford to go because of lack of funding. And yes, the snarkiness does get to us old folks sometimes!