NY/NJ 2007-08

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Re: NY/NJ 2007-08

Post by AKKOLADE »

aarcoh wrote:uh-oh
superlulz see u in 24 hrs d00d pwnd pewpew
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Re: NY/NJ 2007-08

Post by The Atom Strikes! »

Athena Starwoman wrote:I love how you post something criticizing yourself about not being diplomatic and then post something that out of nowhere takes this really vague stab at my team. Dude, either grow the stones to actually insult me or don't try.
Fine, then. Because you lost to Pensacola in Round 2 and to Shady Side in Round 4, your team got an easy ride until the end of the day, and the only really strong teams that you played during the prelinimaries were Santa Monica and Brookwood.

Edit: and honsetly, your team's overall performance, apart from one narrow win over Dorman at the HSNCT and one over New Trier earlier in the season was rather lackluster, and appeared to consist largely of you beating up other Missouri teams and the Oklahoma circuit.
Last edited by The Atom Strikes! on Sun Mar 02, 2008 11:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: NY/NJ 2007-08

Post by Matt Weiner »

SwissBoy wrote:Fine, then. Because you lost to Pensacola in Round 2 and to Shady Side in Round 4, your team got an easy ride until the end of the day, and the only really strong teams that you played during the prelinimaries were Santa Monica and Brookwood.
take that, scheduling quirk that affected nothing from a tournament held last year
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Re: NY/NJ 2007-08

Post by DumbJaques »

Honstly, Henry, it's statements like this that make me wonder if you follow the results of any of the tournaments you don't compete in, or pay any attention to the lineup of any of the better teams. First of all, do you honestly believe that yesterday's horsehit questions were the best way to seperate the wheat from the chaff? Second, did you happen to see the Prison Bowl results? Check out the questions (questions that were considerably more difficult than yesterday's, and notably free of an unbelievably large gen. knowledge/pop culture/geography/random nonsense distribution), check out Stuy's relevant numbers, and then tell me if you don't think our full A-team is a force, and a good deal better than in October. Yesterday's Stuy team was missing its #2 and #3 player (as far as NAQT format is concerned) and still led the field in powers. Chew on that.
1. Language. High school section. Rargh.
2. Unless you know for a fact that someone hasn't recently had dental surgery (and I don't think you do), phrases like "chew on that" will be treated as vicious threats of bodily harm.
3. Unless you know for a fact that the world is going to end right after you post, stop making posts like this so people perusing threads wont have to read through this nonsense.

BTW, as to my negging, this marks the first time so far this season that I have out-negged Tabachnick - the fact is, whether I play carefully or recklessly, the powers seem to come. It might have something to do with knowing shit, rather than a mere willingness to hit that red button earlier than most. I know that's not what you meant, though, so I'll drop it.
Or, you wont drop it, at least not until you add yet another chapter to this exacerbating back and forth. Also, people can critique your playing style without impugning your overall level of knowledge or worth as a human or whatever - chill out. Also, if we accept your point that you power plenty of questions and score plenty of points whether you play recklessly or conservatively, I feel compelled to question the wisdom of continuing to neg. As a player who negs by nature, I find it downright offensive that you're doing it just to be cool. Please take your hate crimes elsewhere.

Honestly, I don't think I'm imagining this - the questions, it seems to me, really have gotten worse, the distribution really has become more absurd. It's insulting that NAQT considers them suitable for any team, good or bad, to play on.
This is probably worthy of its own thread.
I love how you post something criticizing yourself about not being diplomatic and then post something that out of nowhere takes this really vague stab at my team. Dude, either grow the stones to actually insult me or don't try.
. . . come on Charlie.
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I have nothing to add to this.
Fine, then. Because you lost to Pensacola in Round 2 and to Shady Side in Round 4, your team got an easy ride until the end of the day, and the only really strong teams that you played during the prelinimaries were Santa Monica and Brookwood.

Edit: and honsetly, your team's overall performance, apart from one narrow win over Dorman at the HSNCT and one over New Trier earlier in the season was rather lackluster, and appeared to consist largely of you beating up other Missouri teams and the Oklahoma circuit.
1. Last year, dude?
2. As I recall nobody (chief among those people was Charlie) was calling for NKC to do that much at HSNCT - they surprised people. And I somehow doubt that, were NKC handed a limitless budget and an ability to bypass that horrible Missouri travel rules, Charlie would be pushing to make sure he didn't miss any weekends of baby seal-clubbing at the expense of skipping the major events. That is to say, why in the world are you berating Charlie for failing to attend tournaments he could not have, for comments he never made and an attitude he never voiced, and for a schedule he neither controlled nor extolled as particularly difficult or anything? You should also consider not causing people to read stuff like this.
3. Last year, dude?
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Re: NY/NJ 2007-08

Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) »

Yeah honestly, I live in Missouri. We have a MSHSAA state rule that makes it impossible to play more than 250 miles out of state, so I can't come to DC or wherever else is running good tournaments (we can't even go to Minneapolis as it is like 280 miles away.) The single national type of tournament in that range is Vanderbilt, so back off man. Do yourself a little count of how many NAQT and college style tournaments there are within 250 miles of Missouri and then realize why we're stuck with our schedule like that. I mean, you clearly have convinced yourself that I'm some kind of ridiculously arrogant player who only cares about winning, but if you were to actually like check the fact that I have gone out of my way to go to college tournaments that I suck at and have never ever said that NKC was any kind of real national contender in any more of a sense than "we can probably make some kind of upper tier ranking" which I think is somewhat justified. But hey, you have all this bizarre pent up anger towards me that doesn't really make sense, so I don't think that's going to change anything.
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Re: NY/NJ 2007-08

Post by AKKOLADE »

I'd just like to note that this triangle of slap fighting between Charlie, Gorman and Doug is just going to lead to tempbans. So, like, stop.
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Re: NY/NJ 2007-08

Post by btressler »

Our team just took a vote, and we would like Henry tempbanned until June 15th.

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Re: NY/NJ 2007-08

Post by Captain Sinico »

Who does Fred look like, dude, Jim Boylan? You're living in an autocracy, son.

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Re: NY/NJ 2007-08

Post by AKKOLADE »

Yeah, I'm not going to ban anyone that hasn't broken rules from this forum. If you have an issue with someone from your team being stupid on here, you need to take care of that in-house.
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Re: NY/NJ 2007-08

Post by btressler »

Indeed we have spoken to him about this, and the general reaction has been "stop being stupid".

We request the disclaimer that Henry does not speak for any of the rest of us and we apologize to Stuy, Gonzaga, NKC, and the states of Missouri and Oklahoma for his ill-advised remarks.

And to go back on topic: Hunter did have a good tournament.

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Re: NY/NJ 2007-08

Post by dyetman89 »

Speaking of being undiplomatic, I'd like to apologize to Henry myself - looking at that post again, my own choice of words was far from appropriate, and I let my weariness after a long day get to me. Sorry man.

But back on track: a little bird told me that an NAQT State Championship is planned for New York. I only heard tell of this today myself - is this a surprise to anyone else? Does anybody have any idea who might be hosting it, and when (Columbia sounds like the obvious choice, but I'd heard they always had trouble reserving a lot of rooms)?
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Re: NY/NJ 2007-08

Post by The Atom Strikes! »

dyetman89 wrote:Speaking of being undiplomatic, I'd like to apologize to Henry myself - looking at that post again, my own choice of words was far from appropriate, and I let my weariness after a long day get to me. Sorry man.
I'm the one who made the inflammatory posts in the first place. It was my fault.

Edit: And also apologies to Gonzaga, who really are an excellent team and are undeserving of the jerkery that I handed out. And to NKC as well.
Last edited by The Atom Strikes! on Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: NY/NJ 2007-08

Post by The Infanta »

Up 'til today, when my coach told me we still needed NAQT's approval, I thought my team and I would be going to NJ States at Rutgers, and Stuy was rumored to be in attendance. Judging by Doug's post, I'm guessing not.

But in response to TheCzarMan, I used to think we and SHP were equally matched in ability, but they've only beat us twice out of the six times we've played them, so I don't see them as having an "edge" over us. That being said, you definitely shouldn't list them as tied for #1 in the area with Stuy. BCA, however, is a different story altogether. I believe both of us are more equally matched than we are with SHP, because we have each won one game against the other, but by nail-bitingly small margins.

I still wish we could play Hunter, though, 'cause we never have.
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Re: NY/NJ 2007-08

Post by Sir Thopas »

Rollen Stewart wrote:I still wish we could play Hunter, though, 'cause we never have.
You read for us a few rounds back in October, but other than that, yeah. A bit strange, really; you'd think we'd have gotten matched up at least once by now. In any case, we still have a few more opportunities later in the year to do so, I guess.
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Re: NY/NJ 2007-08

Post by Ondes Martenot »

In all honesty, New York is too good not to have its own state championships. I mean you have two nationally ranked teams in Hunter and Stuy, along with other really good teams like Kellenberg, HHW and Horace Greely. I mean, if little Delaware can have a state championship, so can NY (for all I care just play the championship in Central Park....actually that would be kind of fun)
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Re: NY/NJ 2007-08

Post by STPickrell »

As for NY championships ... isn't there a smallish NAQT playing area around Dolgeville? I also thought the folks on the other side of Lake Champlain occasionally went to VT tournaments, too.

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Re: NY/NJ 2007-08

Post by The Logic of Scientific Disco »

We had a couple of NY teams at MITBAT on Saturday--Preston from the Bronx, Emma Willard from Troy, North Babylon and Smithtown from Long Island (Smithtown brought 5 teams combined!). At least based on that, NY should have plenty for a championship.
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Re: NY/NJ 2007-08

Post by Wall of Ham »

After our canceled tournament, Cornell contacted NAQT in November about the possibility of hosting NAQT NY States (which would have hopefully drawn more teams), but they said it was too late to do so. Hentzel also said NAQT is also looking for a host closer to NYC, where most of the NY teams are. If no one else is willing to host NY States next year, Cornell might do it.
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Re: NY/NJ 2007-08

Post by SHP Pirate »

Seton Hall has spoken with NAQT about hosting a NY state championship. We will be working with/seeking co-hosts this week for an April tournament.
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Re: NY/NJ 2007-08

Post by Ondes Martenot »

Will Seton Hall actually be going with the tournament using set IS-75A (the one that Bergen never got off the ground)?
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Re: NY/NJ 2007-08

Post by TheCzarMan »

aarcoh wrote:Will Seton Hall actually be going with the tournament using set IS-75A (the one that Bergen never got off the ground)?
-clasps hands in prayer-
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Re: NY/NJ 2007-08

Post by rleavitt »

Geek Wars in Dolgeville was not NAQT affiliated, although my team would be interested in travelling for a New York NAQT Nationals, and I know a few teams would be interested from our tournament. How do we qualify? When will dates and locations be announced? Ahhh... a spring trip to NYC sounds lovely as I look at the snow and sleet outside. Please keep me updated.

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Re: NY/NJ 2007-08

Post by SHP Pirate »

Okay ... after a few e-mails, we are looking at May 17 at White Plains High School. (Weekend after AP exams and weekend before NAQT Nationals.) This will conflict with Chatham's tournament.

Any other NY teams reading this board should chime-in. Details to follow.
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Re: NY/NJ 2007-08

Post by STPickrell »

SHP Pirate wrote:Okay ... after a few e-mails, we are looking at May 17 at White Plains High School. (Weekend after AP exams and weekend before NAQT Nationals.) This will conflict with Chatham's tournament.

Any other NY teams reading this board should chime-in. Details to follow.
I thought White Plains was like Chip Beall Central? Has someone converted Les Roby???

rleavitt, they were talking about a NY state NAQT tournament, at which anyone from NY state could attend.

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Re: NY/NJ 2007-08

Post by ChathamNJ »

SHP Pirate wrote:Okay ... after a few e-mails, we are looking at May 17 at White Plains High School. (Weekend after AP exams and weekend before NAQT Nationals.) This will conflict with Chatham's tournament.

Any other NY teams reading this board should chime-in. Details to follow.
Well drat. And I'm just about ready to start the announcement thread for our tournament, too.

I suppose it's too late to ask NY teams to have their state championship on the same day as NJ's, huh? :lol:
Or maybe NY could do a Metro Super Weekend and host their states on May 18? Yes it's a Sunday so that probably nixes Kellenberg. Hmph. Looks like there's no way to please all the people all the time. Who knew?

Ah well. Maybe Charter will feel sorry for us and bring their 15 teams.

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Re: NY/NJ 2007-08

Post by Ondes Martenot »

How many NY teams were planning on attending Chatham? If I'm not mistaken Hunter was the only NY team at Chatham last year...I also think a bunch of NY teams have already played the IS-72 set. Still, there's no other date to hold NY states?
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Re: NY/NJ 2007-08

Post by SHP Pirate »

Having spoken with several teams from NY, April 5, 12, and 19 are problematic. We (SHP) are unavailable March 8 (Rutgers), March 15 (DACQ), March 22-23 (Easter), March 29 (Millburn), April 5 (we are hosting NAQT 75A), April 12 (Colonia), April 19 and April 26 (School functions). May 3 and May 10 would be tough because of AP exams.

White Plains has agreed to co-host on May 17. (They will still be eligible to play as SHP will be handling the questions/moderating.) Thus, the selection of May 17.
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Re: NY/NJ 2007-08

Post by btressler »

ChathamNJ wrote:Ah well. Maybe Charter will feel sorry for us and bring their 15 teams.
Regrettably, your set of questions is being used at the Blue Hen this week.

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Re: NY/NJ 2007-08

Post by TheCzarMan »

I think you should run your tournament as it stands now Chatham. If you really have to you could try and run the tournament on Sunday, then you're only losing out on Kellenberg.
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Re: NY/NJ 2007-08

Post by ChathamNJ »

Soupy Norman wrote:After our canceled tournament, Cornell contacted NAQT in November about the possibility of hosting NAQT NY States (which would have hopefully drawn more teams), but they said it was too late to do so.
Grumblegrumblegrumble.
Soupy Norman wrote:If no one else is willing to host NY States next year, Cornell might do it.
Please do, and submit your bid now, and host it on a hockey weekend and the winning team gets into Lynah for free!
aarcoh wrote:How many NY teams were planning on attending Chatham? If I'm not mistaken Hunter was the only NY team at Chatham last year...I also think a bunch of NY teams have already played the IS-72 set.
Last year it was Hunter and two teams from HHHW. I've been informed that Kellenberg and HHHW are going to Blue Hen to hear IS-72 anyway so they're a non-issue (as well as Charter), but I'm more concerned with the loss of Seton Hall and their 3-5 teams that would certainly have come.
aarcoh wrote:Still, there's no other date to hold NY states?
Evidently not. And so, with no clear scapegoat to blame, I am reduced to grumbling in frustration. Hopefully next year NY States will be held earlier in the year, and we will look into geographic exclusivity for NY and/or DE if we want to grow our own event.

Grumblegrumblegrumble. Or maybe I can find a way to blame Bill Clinton or GWB...

Time for optimism - CAT II will be held (formal announcement coming very very soon), it will be a size we can manage well, and it will be a good event for top teams and less intense ones too. That's our plan, and if we only have 25 teams instead of 30 it'll just be that much easier to staff! And MORE BAGELS FOR EVERYONE!

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Re: NY/NJ 2007-08

Post by TheCzarMan »

Missing Seton Hall, Kellenberg, etc etc may make it easier to parlay my NAQT Wild Card nomination into an invite since your tournament is so late.
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Re: NY/NJ 2007-08

Post by The Infanta »

And for future reference, if you're hosting a tournament on a Sunday, don't discount us. Back in September, we were at the Mid-Atlantic Season Opener which was held on a Sunday.
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Re: NY/NJ 2007-08

Post by ChathamNJ »

Rollen Stewart wrote:And for future reference, if you're hosting a tournament on a Sunday, don't discount us. Back in September, we were at the Mid-Atlantic Season Opener which was held on a Sunday.
Fair enough, I stand corrected.

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Re: NY/NJ 2007-08

Post by Byko »

Rollen Stewart wrote:And for future reference, if you're hosting a tournament on a Sunday, don't discount us. Back in September, we were at the Mid-Atlantic Season Opener which was held on a Sunday.
Actually, no--that was definitely a Saturday. Maryland's tournament, however, which gave a nod to It's Academic format, was on a Sunday, I believe.
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Re: NY/NJ 2007-08

Post by The Infanta »

Yes, you're right. I always get them mixed up.
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Re: NY/NJ 2007-08

Post by Ondes Martenot »

Since there was no thread for NJ states, i put all the results here

1. East Brunswick A
2. Seton Hall Prep A
3. Bergen A
4. Delbarton

Top Scorers (I only know the top four, maybe eventually full stats will be released)
1. Rob-SHP A
2. Tom K (I think that's his name)-Delbarton
3. Watson-Bergen A
4. Aaron-Bergen A

I was impressed by Seton Hall, who seems to have improved quite a bit. Delbarton was also quite good, and it's a pity they don't come to more tournaments because they definitely know what they're doing.

There was one little "anamoly" shall I say regarding the structure. The tournament was divided into the regular prelims, some kind intermediate prelim/playoff rounds, and the actuall final playoff rounds with four teams. But the intermediate playoff round seemed kind of pointless, as the scores from these rounds were combined with scores from the prelims. So even though we went 2-1 in our intermediates and Millburn A went 3-0 in the same bracket, we advanced to the final playoff rounds because we went 6-0 in the prelims and they were 4-2, so our combined records were 8-1 and 7-2. I know the Seton Hall coach said he might complain to NAQT about this, and I can't blame him. Honestly, the way Rutgers had done it at previous tournament seemed more effective.

But beyond that, it was a well run tournament, so props to the Rutgers teams.
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Re: NY/NJ 2007-08

Post by Ondes Martenot »

Oh yeah and congratulations to East Brunswick of course. We never actually played them but obviously they must be impressive
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Re: NY/NJ 2007-08

Post by SHP Pirate »

Alright ... here is what happened.

First and foremost, at the end of the day, Rutgers did a very good job. Out of the 29 matches played by my three teams, there was only one protest. Rounds ran efficiently, moderators were good to excellent, and with the exception of the format, there were few to no problems.

Now for the criticism ...

There were 28 teams divided into four bracket of 7. Each team played six games with one bye. So far ... so good.

After the prelimiary brackets, things became confusing. Assume that the preliminary brackets were called A, B, C, and D.
After the preliminaries, new brackets were created. In the first new bracket (called bracket E) were the #1 team from preliminary bracket A, the #2 team from preliminary bracket B, the #3 team from preliminary bracket C, the #4 team from preliminary bracket D. (There were other teams seeded 5-7 as well, but as they could not advance, I will leave them out of the discussion for the sake of simplicity.)

So ... the "New Brackets" looked like this -

E: A1, B2, C3, D4
F: B1, C2, D3, A4
G: C1, D2, A3, B4
H: D1, A2, B3, E4

Still with me? (The TD explained that he was "cross-bracketing" this round.)

At the end of the preliminaries, there were four undefeated teams - Seton Hall, Bergen County, East Brunswick, and Delbarton. At the conclusion of the "new" brackets, only East Brunswick remained undefeated. The TD indicated to me that, since East Brunswick was the only remaining undefeated team, they were the champions. I objected based on the fact that none of the top four teams had played one another and that the original tournament schedule/explanation of rounds indicated some form of "finals" after the second round-robin. Eventually the TD realized the problem and the final four teams played a final round.

The Millburn issue still perplexes me. Millburn posted a 4-2 record in their prliminary bracket and entered the "cross-bracket" round as a #2 seed. They beat Bergen County A and the other two teams in their "cross-bracket". However, because preliminary records were carried into this cross-bracket, despite their perfect record and defeat of Bergen County A, Millburn had to settle to playing for 5th place while Bergen advanced into the final playoff. No disrespect meant toward Bergen ... they are a very talented team ... but I feel that Millburn was not treated fairly. For all of their success in the afternoon, they were punished by the confusing structure of the tournament. In reality, Millburn not only needed to go 3-0 in their cross-bracket (which they did) ... they needed to defeat Bergen County A (which they did) ... but Bergen County A also needed to lose 2 out of three of their cross-bracket matches for Millburn to advance.

I realize that I have been ranting here - far more than I have ever on this site - but I just feel that the format of this tournament was unnecessarily complex and did not reward teams (specifically Millburn) for good play and upsetting higher seeds.

All that said ... congratulations to East Brunswick. They ran the table today and were very impressive during the final match.
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Re: NY/NJ 2007-08

Post by TheCzarMan »

Wow, after hearing all that I'm kind of thankful we never were able to get a chaperone so we could go to the competition.

How was the weather btw?
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Re: NY/NJ 2007-08

Post by btressler »

I've seen this kind of thing done before. The TRASH regionals held at Villanova years back comes to mind. And they definitely went to either a round of 8 or 4 after the cross bracket play. I can see why Millburn would be frustrated by going undefeated in the second phase but being unable to make up the difference in record being two behind. If they had gone to quarters next, would Millburn have qualified to that?

Honestly, I think someone should explain to them that high school teams aren't as opposed to single-elim playoffs as college teams are. I think they should have taken the top two (or even four) out of each group and gone directly to the playoff.

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Re: NY/NJ 2007-08

Post by Ondes Martenot »

The way rutgers had previously done it was they had the prelim brackets, the top teams from each bracket went into a championship playoff bracket and the winner of this bracket was the tourn. winner. I really thought this way was good, and I have no idea why rutgers felt the need to change it.
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Re: NY/NJ 2007-08

Post by btressler »

Did they not want to do 6-7 more rounds after the prelims, maybe?

(e.g., taking the top two from each group, you would have six opponents in the top group that you haven't played yet)

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Re: NY/NJ 2007-08

Post by SHP Pirate »

In the past, especially when there have been three brackets, they have taken top two from each bracket and played a round robin. However, in those years, once again, preliminary records (to an extnt) were preserved. For example, let's say that teams A and B advanced from the same bracket. Those teams would have a records of 1-0 and 0-1 against one another respectively. THOSE records were preserved. (In other words, each team would begin the final round robin with a record of either 1-0 or 0-1. In this permutation of the round robin format, despite both teams A and B in the "finals", the teams would not play each other again.)

There are so many viable formats for a tournament to end. By adding the "cross-bracket" round, you give hope of advancement to teams which, barring miraculous happenstance, can never come to fruition. It almost happened for Millburn yesterday.

In the future, I hope that Rutgers either uses ...

1. Single elimination playoff
2. Double elimination playoff (Princeton had a tough time with this two years ago, but it can be run well)
3. Straight round robin playoff bracket where all top teams play each other
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Re: NY/NJ 2007-08

Post by kevinatcausa »

I wasn't involved in setting up the schedule at Rutgers (though I staffed there), but I think I can at least understand where they were coming from in doing so.

Part of the difficulty with trying to set up a format for this tournament was that it was trying to do two things at once, to both determine the state champion and to serve as a qualifier where the top 5 teams make nationals.

In a traditional arrangement (say where the top 2 teams from each bracket advance after the prelim rounds) a team with 2 prelim losses will often be eliminated not just from contention for the top spot (as happened to Millburn), but also from being able to finish in the top 5.

In the format used yesterday, no team was eliminated from contention for a nationals qualifying slot until they had lost three times. No team was eliminated from contention for the final playoff until they had lost twice.

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Re: NY/NJ 2007-08

Post by AKKOLADE »

Was New Jersey's NAQT state qualifier held on March 8th?
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Re: NY/NJ 2007-08

Post by Ondes Martenot »

Yeah. But no one seems to have posted the results/stats anywhere yet.
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Re: NY/NJ 2007-08

Post by Aaron »

Jason Keller should have the stats on his computer, but as far as I know, I don't think he posted them.
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Re: NY/NJ 2007-08

Post by Golran »

Does anybody know the format of the Regional Quiz Bowl playoffs that happen Wed. April 16th? Is it a round robbin followed by single-elimination, or is it just double elimination based upon our original seeds?

Also, what time does it end? My teammates have been asking me about it all week.

Thanks in advance.

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Re: NY/NJ 2007-08

Post by Ondes Martenot »

Huh?

I've never heard of these....
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Re: NY/NJ 2007-08

Post by BroNi »

dinoian wrote:Does anybody know the format of the Regional Quiz Bowl playoffs that happen Wed. April 16th? Is it a round robbin followed by single-elimination, or is it just double elimination based upon our original seeds?

Also, what time does it end? My teammates have been asking me about it all week.
The RQB finals (involving teams from Nassau and Suffolk on Long Island) are between the top 18 Var. and the top 18 JV teams from our league. Both divisions are separate and will crown a champ. Each team plays 3 others (basically the #1 seed plays seeds #18, #11, and #6. Don't quote me on that, but its close). After dinner, the top 8 (by W-L record and then Rd. 2 and 3 point sum) go on to a single elimination playoff final.

You leave when you are eliminated. If you make it to the finals, it could be as late as 9 PM.
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