Georgia 2007-2008

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Post by Captain Sinico »

Right, but look, the fact is that success at some of these things predicts success at others, whereas success at others predicts success at nothing (not even the same thing again.) Therefore, when we're trying to compare teams (by answering the question of, say, "Given equal preparation time, which team would win on average?" the average being taken over a large number of matches in the various national formats) success at some formats is far more meaningful than at others.
I have no faith that a team that wins, say, NAC, would have any chance at anything else, since it's possible to win NAC, with its depleted field and gimmicky, fraud-inducing questions, without knowing very much, whereas a lot of knowledge is required to even do well in other formats. In fact, NAC's outcomes seem rather random and most of the top teams in other formats don't compete there, so I have no faith that a NAC-winning team is actually any good at NAC, even. Conversely, I have a high degree of certainty that a team that wins NAQT or PACE possesses tangible skills that would be useful in NAC or other formats. This is because it's not possible to win NAQT or PACE without beating a large number of very good teams on knowledge-testing questions.
So, long story short, while some teams are better at other formats than others, that doesn't mean that all accomplishments are equally meaningful when we're trying to figure out who the best team is.

MaS

Edit: fixed double negative. Oops.
Last edited by Captain Sinico on Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by STPickrell »

Didn't Holland Hall finish around 25th in NAQT the year they won NAC?

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Post by Byko »

STPickrell wrote:Didn't Holland Hall finish around 25th in NAQT the year they won NAC?
They were in a 9-way tie for 20th that year. The only other times the NAC champion has competed at NAQT were 2002 (Irmo finished second to Saint John's, TX) and 2001 (Irmo finished tied for 15th with Huntsville, TX). None of the others have even competed at NAQT.

1998 was the only year that the NAC champion also competed at PACE, and State College won that tournament too. Saint John's was slated to come to PACE in 2002 but qualified for the NAC Final Four and had to go there instead. That might have been the last year they went to NAC.
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Post by AlphaQuizBowler »

Gunnells wrote:
AlphaQuizBowler wrote:This is true; strength of schedule is a factor, and sometimes counts more than win ratio in the rankings, as evidenced by LAMP A, with a record of 7-6-1, being ahead of us (Alpharetta), who have a record of 2-1. Playing more teams and playing harder teams helps you rating, therefore, the rankings should not be skewed to those playing weaker schedules.
You should record your scores and report them after each event. You have a good team and gave Norcross a very good match at Walton.
I have emailed our Brookwood results to Mr. Bykowski; however, they have not yet been added to the results database. We went 6-2 at that tournament, so we should move up in the rankings.

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Post by Byko »

AlphaQuizBowler wrote:I have emailed our Brookwood results to Mr. Bykowski; however, they have not yet been added to the results database. We went 6-2 at that tournament, so we should move up in the rankings.
True. I'm working through some backlog--it may get entered today. Thanks for your patience.
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Post by NoahMinkCHS »

NoahMinkCHS wrote:I feel certain, after this weekend, that Dorman would win most tournaments they played no matter where. I imagine most of those other teams listed would be competitive in any region, as well. I guess we'll see in May, if not sooner.
So Dorman won first and third at the Gov's School tournament this weekend in Virginia. Although Gov didn't play, and neither did "real" TJ A, I thought I would point out that, yes, a southern team won a mid-Atlantic tournament with a pretty strong field. And also got third. Take that, haters.

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Post by DumbJaques »

So Dorman won first and third at the Gov's School tournament this weekend in Virginia. Although Gov didn't play, and neither did "real" TJ A, I thought I would point out that, yes, a southern team won a mid-Atlantic tournament with a pretty strong field. And also got third. Take that, haters.
Dude, for the third damn time, nobody was hating on your region. Pretty much everyone acknowledged Dorman's very high skill level and I'm sure few people were surprised that such a victory occurred. This is really starting to border on stupid regionalism crap, which is against board rules. The hilarious thing is that all this stuff started up from two Georgia kids posting to each other and somehow establishing that the Mid-Atlantic has a "god complex" or something. Stop it.
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Post by Ben_Dodson »

Bringing this of back to the topic of Georgia....

What did everyone think of the Chattahoochee tournament? There were a few interesting upsets that occured. Walton was upset by Centennial I believe and Norcross was upset by Brookwood B. I'm not sure who won the tournament, but the final 4 was probably James Island, Brookwood B, Brookwood A, and Centennial. Not in that order.

I for one was fairly impressed with Brookwood B. I hadn't really seen them, but judging from the stats I didn't expect them to be as good as they were. Granted, it wasn't a great round for us. I negged twice on two really frustrating T-U's that could of changed the match (saying Enkidu when the answer was Enki and saying Ainur when the answer was Ainu). But, I noticed that Brookwood B didn't neg once which was really impressive. James Island had previously won a really close game against Brookwood B in the prelims so I'm interested in seeing how they did in the rematch.

I didn't seeing Walton or Brookwood A play, but the top four was basically what I expected. Other than that, it was a fun tournament and I thoroughly enjoyed it.

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Post by AdamL »

DumbJaques wrote:all this stuff started up from two Georgia kids posting to each other and somehow establishing that the Mid-Atlantic has a "god complex"
For the record, I never said anything of the sort… I disagreed with the “god complexâ€
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Post by NoahMinkCHS »

Chris -- Dude. Chill out. I never accused anyone of hating on our region (or of anything else), and I'm not sure why you decided to flip out on me like that (and act like it was the third time you'd called me out or something).

Did you even read this thread? People were speculating whether the rankings of southern teams were skewed because they "play a larger number of good teams" in other regions. Then someone else said (and I agreed) that good teams in this region compare favorably with good teams in other regions. Gunnells said, "As for the top of the Southeast relative to northern teams, we'll have a better idea when we see what Dorman A and B do this weekend." Then there was lots of idle speculation about what would happen when we had an actual inter-region matchup.

And then, after there actually was an inter-region matchup (that happened to square pretty well with what I predicted...), I thought it might be a good idea to post it here for those who had not seen the Gov. thread. After all, when people are just talking, it's sometimes helpful to throw in some actual facts.

I suppose my jokingly-stated final line of "Take that, haters" might have misled you, but I promise -- I meant that as sarcastically as possible. Obviously, I don't think there's some huge conspiracy against southern quizbowl ("haters") on this board. My mistake for attempting a little humor.

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Post by Ben_Dodson »

AdamL wrote: But they’re not invincible… they’ve had some pretty close games with a few teams in the south.
They do that to sow a seed of hope in teams so they can crush it by the end of the match. The victory is all the sweeter that way.

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Post by Ben_Dodson »

NoahMinkCHS wrote:I suppose my jokingly-stated final line of "Take that, haters" might have misled you, but I promise -- I meant that as sarcastically as possible. Obviously, I don't think there's some huge conspiracy against southern quizbowl ("haters") on this board. My mistake for attempting a little humor.
Sarcasm in online threads is difficult. Chris didn't get it because you put an imfaasis on the wrong silaable.

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Post by DumbJaques »

Sarcasm in online threads is difficult. Chris didn't get it because you put an imfaasis on the wrong silaable
Yeah, that's it. Uhm. . . mostly.

Seriously, it did not come off as joking to me, particularly with the whole "I would like to point out that, yes, a southern team won a mid-atlantic tournament" thing. I guess I don't see any point where anyone from the MId-Atlantic made any comment that would indicate such a thing should be unexpected. Or anyone from anywhere, really. Phrasing it like that came off as somewhat condescending and definitely in response to some kind of statement of such an event's limited likelihood. Combined with your "quoting for truth" post about Ben's initial God mentality thing, it really did strike me as piling on about something that wasn't even an issue to begin with. I still maintain there isn't anyone who's posted in this thread that doesn't count Dorman among the best 2 or 3 in the country easily, or that thinks the South is in anyway inherently inferior than the Mid-Atlantic or anywhere else.
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Post by The Atom Strikes! »

AdamL wrote: But they’re not invincible… they’ve had some pretty close games with a few teams in the south.
Actually, they have lost a game this year. They lost the competition at Harvard to Whitman.
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Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) »

Well, I think the bigger emphasis there was the "in the south" part since the discussion revolved around how Ben Dodson got tired of running into them and always losing.
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Post by The Atom Strikes! »

Well, if they can be defeated in the North, why can't somebody defeat them in the South? It's not as if they draw their power from their proximity to the equator. Probably, if they worked hard enough, a Brookwood, Walton, MLK, or James Island team could get off a win against them.
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Post by AdamL »

Er... yeah. Charlie is right... I was specifically responding to Ben's comment about how Dorman keeps winning here in the south. I am aware that they lost to Whitman at Harvard.

And it was sort of my whole point that they CAN be beaten, but no southern teams have done it yet, though some are trying and have gotten close. So umm... not really sure where you're going with this.
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Post by The Atom Strikes! »

My point is that they're not gods, or TJ of 2005. They are possible to beat. So a southern team that was willing to work insanely probably could win.
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Post by Ben_Dodson »

Deesy Does It wrote:Well, I think the bigger emphasis there was the "in the south" part since the discussion revolved around how Ben Dodson got tired of running into them and always losing.
I believe the "in the South" emphasis concerns the comment about Southern teams not playing as many good teams as the mid-A. My comments about Dorman was initially in response to someone I did not realize was from Georgia. I thought someone from the mid-A just wanted to downplay the accomplishments of the Southern teams. Like if I went to St. Louis and went "Hey. There's no good teams here. It'd be so easy for a single good program to do well in this region of the country!", naturally people would get upset. Unfortunately, by citing Dorman as an example of one of many great Southern teams, I somehow prompted the redundancy of Missouri players telling Georgia players that Dorman is a well respected and excellent program. Oh. So now I explain that no one ever doubted this. The point in mentioning Dorman playing in DC was basically stating that DC teams should play Dorman A/B more often before they state Southern teams don't play as many good teams. Now realize, this was all in response to an error in communication. Technically, none of this should have gone any further. More redundancy followed however and I am now somehow explaining why I personally don't always like having Dorman at every tournament I attend. None of this is relevant anymore, nor remotely revolves around anything. Now let's please, PLEASE stop talking about Dorman and the mid-A. Love and peace all around? Yes please, thank you.
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Post by Ben_Dodson »

SwissBoy wrote:My point is that they're not gods, or TJ of 2005. They are possible to beat. So a southern team that was willing to work insanely probably could win.
Any team could win. They just probably won't. I'm not saying the can't be beaten so much as you don't expect to. It's fun playing them and losing, but I still prefer winning a trophy.

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Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) »

Ben_Dodson wrote:
Deesy Does It wrote:Well, I think the bigger emphasis there was the "in the south" part since the discussion revolved around how Ben Dodson got tired of running into them and always losing.
I believe the "in the South" emphasis concerns the comment about Southern teams not playing as many good teams as the mid-A. My comments about Dorman was initially in response to someone I did not realize was from Georgia. I thought someone from the mid-A just wanted to downplay the accomplishments of the Southern teams. Like if I went to the central U.S. part of the country and went "Hey. There's no good teams here. It'd be so easy to do well in this region of the country!", naturally people would get upset. Unfortunately, by citing Dorman as an example of one of many great Southern teams, I somehow prompted the redundancy of Missouri players telling Georgia players that Dorman is a well respected and excellent program. Oh. So now I explain that no one ever doubted this. The point in mentioning Dorman playing in DC was basically stating that DC teams should play Dorman A/B more often before they state Southern teams don't play as many good teams. Now realize, this was all in response to an error in communication. Technically, none of this should have gone any further. More redundancy followed however and I am now somehow explaining why I personally don't always like having Dorman at every tournament I attend. None of this is relevant anymore, nor remotely revolves around anything. Now let's please, PLEASE stop talking about Dorman and the mid-A. Love and peace all around? Yes please, thank you.
See, here's the problem -
1) You are turning this into regionalism when it's not. Also, the same thing (the midwest/great plains doesn't have very many good teams statement) is more or less true ignoring Minnesota, the south does have a lot more good teams. But that's not even valid to this debate.
2) Insulting me and trying to invalidate my points by telling me that it is redundant that a player from Missouri is telling people from Georgia that Dorman's good is silly and inaccurate. My midwesternness has nothing to do with my ability to judge Dorman, a team I have played multiple times over the years. Secondly, it's inaccurate because I wasn't telling you that Dorman is good, I was telling you that teams in the mid-Atlantic all know Dorman is good, which considering your anger at the non-existant "god-like mentality" of that region is 100% appropriate considering it's true and contrary to what you just posted, you implied that that region doesn't respect Dorman (don't try to deny it), or else I don't think you would have posted that.
3) The reason why people care that you posted something sounding like a dislike of Dorman's attendance at your tournaments is because it's silly to say something like that and it comes off as whiny and cloying, and such a mentality should be ridiculed at all costs. Now, whether or not you meant to say that stuff is another matter, but in your initial post that's how it came off.

Now, I hope that clarifies why I cared enough to get involved in this discussion, and if you try and turn this into "you're from Missouri, you can't comment on what happens in the south" again then I sincerely hope you rethink that for a number of reasons.
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Post by kCobain911 »

Deesy Does It wrote:

2) Insulting me and trying to invalidate my points by telling me that it is redundant that a player from Missouri is telling people from Georgia that Dorman's good is silly and inaccurate. My midwesternness has nothing to do with my ability to judge Dorman, a team I have played multiple times over the years.

I don't think he was insulting you by saying that you didn't have any idea how good Dorman was. I think he was being sarcastic that you would think that WE don't know how good Dorman is. Trust me, we know. And thats not whining, so don't bring that up again.

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Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) »

No see, that's exactly what is wrong here, you aren't actually reading -
3) The reason why people care that you posted something sounding like a dislike of Dorman's attendance at your tournaments is because it's silly to say something like that and it comes off as whiny and cloying, and such a mentality should be ridiculed at all costs. Now, whether or not you meant to say that stuff is another matter, but in your initial post that's how it came off.
And as to your other point, I love how you totally edited out the relevant portion of the statement to once again make it look like I'm telling you guys that Dorman is good when you already know that. I wasn't and my full quote demonstrates that -
2) Insulting me and trying to invalidate my points by telling me that it is redundant that a player from Missouri is telling people from Georgia that Dorman's good is silly and inaccurate. My midwesternness has nothing to do with my ability to judge Dorman, a team I have played multiple times over the years. Secondly, it's inaccurate because I wasn't telling you that Dorman is good, I was telling you that teams in the mid-Atlantic all know Dorman is good, which considering your anger at the non-existant "god-like mentality" of that region is 100% appropriate considering it's true and contrary to what you just posted, you implied that that region doesn't respect Dorman (don't try to deny it), or else I don't think you would have posted that.
Yeah, so if you want to actually get into a debate with me, make sure you actually look at what I'm saying next time.

On a different note, 1000th post.
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Post by kCobain911 »

Deesy Does It wrote:
And as to your other point, I love how you totally edited out the relevant portion of the statement to once again make it look like I'm telling you guys that Dorman is good when you already know that. I wasn't and my full quote demonstrates that -
2) Insulting me and trying to invalidate my points by telling me that it is redundant that a player from Missouri is telling people from Georgia that Dorman's good is silly and inaccurate. My midwesternness has nothing to do with my ability to judge Dorman, a team I have played multiple times over the years. Secondly, it's inaccurate because I wasn't telling you that Dorman is good, I was telling you that teams in the mid-Atlantic all know Dorman is good, which considering your anger at the non-existant "god-like mentality" of that region is 100% appropriate considering it's true and contrary to what you just posted, you implied that that region doesn't respect Dorman (don't try to deny it), or else I don't think you would have posted that.
Yeah, so if you want to actually get into a debate with me, make sure you actually look at what I'm saying next time.

On a different note, 1000th post.
I wasn't arguing against/for your main point. I was pointing out the mistake in your conception that he was insulting you.

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Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) »

Well, surprising as it may seem to you, it is somewhat insulting to have someone try to fallaciously disprove my arguments by telling me that I'm from Missouri and thus I am redundant or whatever as opposed to actually addressing the points I'm making.
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Post by kCobain911 »

Deesy Does It wrote:Well, surprising as it may seem to you, it is somewhat insulting to have someone try to fallaciously disprove my arguments by telling me that I'm from Missouri and thus I am redundant or whatever as opposed to actually addressing the points I'm making.
When he said Missouri, I don't think he was insulting you or disproving your point. Rather, he was not-so-subtly referring to your remarks ( You being from Missouri, presumably the only one on this thread).

If you go back and read what he said, his redundant comment was about us knowning and you telling us that Dorman is good.

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Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) »

WHICH I NEVER DID
and if you, once again, look, you will see that.
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Post by kCobain911 »

Deesy Does It wrote:(Well, you know, they went to Maggie Walker's tournament in Virginia, Gonzaga's tournament in Washington DC, the spring tournament at the University of Virginia, and the Virginia Commonwealth PACE-format tournament last year, and considering the high retention of players they have on their A-team I would say all of those count. (Especially since everyone knows they returned and are good). So yeah, I do actually know what I'm talking about here..
He may be referring to that, although obviously, your not shoving it down our throats. I'll concede that.

Edit: I put the whole text in there.

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Post by Rountree »

ENOUGH! Charles, Ben, Cobain, et. al. This discussion ends here. I have been doing this since y'all were in preschool, so let me explain a few things:

Fact 1 - the south has had very good quizbowl teams over the last 15-20 years. No one that knows anything about quizbowl has disputed that here, nor should they.
Fact 2 - other regions, including the mid-Atlantic, have also had very good teams in that time span. Again, no one should dispute that because they wouldn't know what they are talking about.
Fact 3 - over the past 6-8 years, NAQT has grown enormously in popularity among high school teams, especially in the mid-Atlantic but not nearly so much in the south.
Fact 4 - the south has many different tournament formats (like the 4 quarters you see at Brookwood and Dorman), and teams that do well on those formats, don't always do well on straight TU and Bon. This type of format is almost extinct in the mid-Atlantic and many other areas where NAQT is popular.
Fact 5 - until a team can dominate on a multitude of formats, regardless of which region they are from, then it will be IMPOSSIBLE to determine who has the best team.

This last fact is perhaps the most important point I can make because it proves what I said earlier on this same thread - a team that can win all over the place no matter the format (NAC not withstanding Charles) is the best. Since so few teams in the mid-Atlantic come to tournaments in the south, and vice versa, who really knows which team is the best. Winning NAQT proves that you are the best at those questions, but I am not certain that it proves you could go to Dorman, Brookwood, and other places with very different formats and simply dominate the competition. Maybe you could, but no school that has won NAQT in the last 5 years has played a single game at Brookwood or Dorman in that time frame, so who really knows for sure.

It appears, however, that this year Dorman is proving that they are, in fact, the best team. Yes, they are from the south, but more importantly they are from a quality public high school program with good kids, a great coach, and a community that strongly supports them. I say congrats to Dorman because they are what many schools want to be - the total package of quizbowl.

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Post by The Atom Strikes! »

Er... Formats like that of the NAC are usually disregarded as actual measures of skill because their short questions and easy clues tend to test guessing ability, rather than actual knowledge, as well as the questionable ethics of the man who runs said championship. However, nobody would dispute your first four listed facts, or that Dorman is an excellent team, though they probably feel this way because of their great skill on pyramidal questions rather than their universal ability.
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Post by Ben_Dodson »

Deesy Does It wrote:I was telling you that teams in the mid-Atlantic all know Dorman is good, which considering your anger at the non-existant "god-like mentality" of that region is 100% appropriate considering it's true and contrary to what you just posted, you implied that that region doesn't respect Dorman (don't try to deny it), or else I don't think you would have posted that.
I apologize beforehand Mr. Rountree. I promise this is the last time I will participate in this childish bickering. To my defense, I attempted to change the subject back to Georgia awhile ago.

Charlie, given your previous confusion concerning my posts, I am not surprised in your response. You are right. I did respond negatively towards a post I thought was was the Mid-A slighting the South. Asking the mid-A to invite Dorman to more tournaments however, would make absolutely no sense if I assumed the Mid-A did not realize Dorman was a good program. It was a rhetorical gesture to exemplify the competition that exists in the South. If I had said "Invite Miami High School more to the Mid-A", then that would be completely illogical. The gesture depended on Dorman's prestigious reputation, which makes your comment not only redundant but slightly condescending. "You do know, that, in fact, people know Dorman is good...right?" Yes Charlie. That was the point. Furthermore, since your comment was posted after I discovered Ragnarok was from Georgia, there was no longer any real relevance to my original comments. They were directed towards someone from the mid-A essentially calling the South inferior, but that person did not exist. At this point, I should have apologized and stated that my original comments had lost quite a bit of meaning. I am saying that now. I am not criticizing the North and I apologize for mistaking certain comments as having the Mid-A as their source. Hopefully, no more irrelevant or redundant comments will result from this anymore.

Also Charlie, for clarification, Miami High School is NOT a real school. I just wanted to make sure you got that.

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Post by jbarnes112358 »

I agree that a good team will be good at multiple formats, as long the formats are designed to reward the more knowledgeable teams. Some formats are certainly better at doing that than others are. All else being equal, a team that is experienced at a certain format would have a small advantage on that format over a team that does not play on that format very often. Most people would buy all 5 of your points if you did not include NAC as an example to prove your point.

Having seen them, I agree that Dorman has an excellent team (two of them actually), and their current number 1 ranking is certainly deserved. We were honored that they chose to come back to our tournament this year.

As to why the Mid-Atlantic teams do not travel south to play more often, I believe it is a matter of expediency. There are so many good tournaments in the neighborhood that there is not the need to travel so far to get quality competition. In the case of Maggie Walker, we have wanted to come down, but we usually like to take multiple teams, and it becomes a financial decision, as well as the issue of missing a day of school for so many people. When the mid-Atlantic teams do leave the area they tend to go north, probably because it is a bit closer and also because they prefer the formats at those tournaments.

So basically, the reasons Mid-Atlantic teams rarely go south are many of the same reasons that teams in the south rarely come north to play. Ditto for the Midwestern teams.

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If we're going back to format wars...

Post by First Chairman »

I'm also not debating with the points... but I will point out some caveats.
elrountree wrote: Fact 1 - the south has had very good quizbowl teams over the last 15-20 years. No one that knows anything about quizbowl has disputed that here, nor should they.
Fact 2 - other regions, including the mid-Atlantic, have also had very good teams in that time span. Again, no one should dispute that because they wouldn't know what they are talking about.
Fact 3 - over the past 6-8 years, NAQT has grown enormously in popularity among high school teams, especially in the mid-Atlantic but not nearly so much in the south.
Fact 4 - the south has many different tournament formats (like the 4 quarters you see at Brookwood and Dorman), and teams that do well on those formats, don't always do well on straight TU and Bon. This type of format is almost extinct in the mid-Atlantic and many other areas where NAQT is popular.
Fact 5 - until a team can dominate on a multitude of formats, regardless of which region they are from, then it will be IMPOSSIBLE to determine who has the best team.
Actually I will differ with the last fact. As Dr. Barnes points out, not all formats necessarily reward the same aspects of quiz bowl. It is unreasonable to assume that just because someone can score a perfect score on the PSAT/SAT than they can do the same on the NY Regent's Test. We also know well that Knowledge Master is not equivalent to playing at PACE Nationals... or Academic Decathlon for that matter. To that end, Fact 5 to me is somewhat irrelevant unless there are certain ground rules that dictate what constitutes an "acceptable" or legitimate format. (That said, I think we do have some ground rules.)

I also will differ with you a bit on the different formats. The DC area has "It's Academic" which is similar in some way to 4Q format prevalent in "the South." There is "Ohio format" which many of you will concede is an entirely different beast.
This last fact is perhaps the most important point I can make because it proves what I said earlier on this same thread - a team that can win all over the place no matter the format (NAC not withstanding Charles) is the best. Since so few teams in the mid-Atlantic come to tournaments in the south, and vice versa, who really knows which team is the best. Winning NAQT proves that you are the best at those questions, but I am not certain that it proves you could go to Dorman, Brookwood, and other places withvery different formats and simply dominate the competition. Maybe you could, but no school that has won NAQT in the last 5 years has played a single game at Brookwood or Dorman in that time frame, so who really knows for sure.

It appears, however, that this year Dorman is proving that they are, in fact, the best team. Yes, they are from the south, but more importantly they are from a quality public high school program with good kids, a great coach, and a community that strongly supports them. I say congrats to Dorman because they are what many schools want to be - the total package of quizbowl.
I think that one forgets that 10 years ago, State College won both the QU nationals and PACE Nationals. I think that with enough preparation in the format, one CAN do well in 4Q (for "non-Southern" teams) and T/B (for "Southern" teams). I point out what makes PACE Nationals unusual is that very few teams have real competitive experience in this format (even if it is based on a T/B format) so the calls for "home format advantage" (such as the case with Arkansas teams with ASCN or mid-Atlantic teams with NAQT) could be quelled. Very few teams want to go out of their home format and deal with reboundable bonuses, strategic choice of bonus questions, or 90+% academic material.

Now why the 4Q format is almost extinct in the mid-Atlantic or eschewed from the many elite programs probably boils down to a financial reason: it costs so much more to play a national event that runs in 4Q format with significantly inferior questions and question distributions compared to what is considered to be more intellectually and personally rewarding with T/B format. I am sure there are more reasons than that. (ADDED) Whenever I've polled Southern teams why they do 4Q, "tradition" (especially going to Chip's tournament) and "we don't like long questions" are the most cited reasons; the mid-Atlantic teams interestingly will cite these same reasons for It's Ac (since the prize money reason has kinda disappeared, hasn't it?). That said, no one is (seriously) calling for an It's Ac format national championship... the teams here like It's Ac for publicity, but not so many view the quick questions on television format a true measuring stick.

I wish we could have more teams like a Detroit Catholic Central who would travel to multiple regions playing multiple formats. But that's an expectation that we really cannot expect from everyone. Of course, we would love to have more Southern teams make it up to DC, and in the early days of the Duke Academic Festival, the intention was to have a good tournament on "neutral ground" where DC/MD/VA teams would play SC/GA/AL teams. (We can wax nostalgic later.) Add to the fact that we all know how much our travel has been curtailed thanks to 9/11 concerns, and there's a reason why it is so hard to get teams to do more traveling.
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Post by BuzzerZen »

Hey, kids, please try to stay on topic. More arguing about what people may or may not have said about the South may result in tempbans, or in Pat coming into this thread and making fun of you.
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Post by Captain Sinico »

I think Dr. Chuck's right on here. I'd also like to reiterate my point, which I think is allied. From my experience, one can reasonably expect an elite NAQT or PACE team to be good at other formats, because one can be fairly sure that they know a good deal. Further, the converse is not true; one cannot expect a team good at NAC and its ilk to be good at NAQT or PACE. Therefore, success at the more academically rigorous formats (please don't understand me as saying that there aren't/couldn't be academically rigorous tournaments in other formats; I only claim that these are the exceptional where they exist) is a much more valid and consistent predictor of success elsewhere and is therefore more valuable and meaningful.

MaS

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BuzzerZen wrote:More arguing about what people may or may not have said about the South may result in tempbans, or in Pat coming into this thread and making fun of you.
Man, I hope that's not an exclusive or...
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Post by centralhs »

Is it possible to expunge all the responses on this thread pertaining to Dorman OR the opinions of people in Mid-Atlantic states to teams in the South... so that no one will post any further responses?

It is utterly ludicrous to me that so much time has been spent in a supposed "Georgia" thread discussing a team from South Carolina!!

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Post by AKKOLADE »

centralhs wrote:It is utterly ludicrous to me that so much time has been spent in a supposed "Georgia" thread discussing a team from South Carolina!!
Obviously, if you're from the Mid-Atlantic, the south is just one big state anyway. :grin:
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Post by First Chairman »

I'm trying to figure out exactly where to split off the thread, but all I can say is it's not my fault others who are from Georgia talk about non-Georgia teams here. :cool:
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Post by AlphaQuizBowler »

AlphaQuizBowler wrote: What does everyone think about this?
My original post was meant to start discussion in our dormant Georgia thread, but I didn't expect all that arguing.

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Post by jrbarry »

Damnation! Fireworks on the Georgia thread! I admit I kinda like it...some of it anyway.

(1) I wonder where I should go to start a vicious attack thread on strict toss-up/bonus formats?

(2) I never really thought about the fact that teams from DC area and northward never come to the big tournaments in the Southeast. Hmmmmmmm...just a coincidence I am sure. I will say that, in the past 10 years, Brookwood has been to regular season tournaments at Boston Univ, Yale Univ (twice), Half Hollow Hills West (NY), William Tennet in PA, Georgetown Day, Univ of Maryland, and George Washington Univ.

(3) The Chattahoochee Tournament on December 8 was a well-run event dsespite the peculiarities of its coach/director. :-)

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Post by jbarnes112358 »

centralhs wrote:Is it possible to expunge all the responses on this thread pertaining to Dorman OR the opinions of people in Mid-Atlantic states to teams in the South... so that no one will post any further responses?

It is utterly ludicrous to me that so much time has been spent in a supposed "Georgia" thread discussing a team from South Carolina!!
Probably true. I think it shows that a lot of non-Georgians lurk in this thread and remain silent until provoked in some way. Most of the responses from non-Georgians were to defend against an accusation (a misunderstanding really) that Yankees were somehow dissing the South or dissing Dorman in particular. Probably the most provocative part of the discussion came from the suggestion that NAC was a legitimate measure of team quality vis-a-vis NAQT or PACE or other quality formats.

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Post by AKKOLADE »

jrbarry wrote:(1) I wonder where I should go to start a vicious attack thread on strict toss-up/bonus formats?
I'd suggest the Theory area, if your definition of "vicious" is what happened in this thread as far as the format discussion, which is to say not vicious at all. In fact, I don't even see a debate about formats in this thread - a debate about national tournaments, yes, which is out of place, but nothing about if one format is better than another on questions of equal quality. If you actually mean vicious, then that'd be against forum rules and of course would not be something you'd want to post here.

Then again, violating any forum rule is bad, and passive aggressiveness does violate the "let's have adult debates" rule. If you'd like to dispute the value of TU/bonus - which is totally fine by me - feel free to in another thread where you can write your full opinion on the matter rather than taking a sly swipe at the subject. Especially when said swipe is done in an attempt to make it look like you're not trying to make a statement on an issue.
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Post by Wall of Ham »

Lol, Fred, even I, one of the most socially inept people on the planet, can figure out Coach Barry is kidding.

Once again, Sarcasm 0, Internet Misunderstanding 683958623.

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Post by vig180 »

Moving back to the topic at hand....

I've always wondered how teams with one really strong player plus a decent supporting group end up doing against teams who lack a superstar but are more balanced overall. In GA this year, it looks like Brookwood and Walton are both cases of the latter while Chattahoochee and Norcross are the former. Not that there's anything wrong with either one, but I've noticed that in close matches when the pressure is really on the teams with more balance may be better off over the long run.

As far as surprises this year, I'd say Roswell and Bleckley County are two teams who have been much more competitive than I would've thought while Central Gwinnett, Grayson, and Parkview seem to be down (relative to last year) this year. Also, Chattahoochee's B team is very, very good, as is Brookwood's.

In all honesty, it may make more sense for SC/GA teams to be talked about together because they play each other quite often (at least the top teams) and there's not much of a geographical difference between. After all, Dorman and James Island have always been major players in the GA circuit. Plus, when math computation questions center around the antics of coaches from both GA and SC teams, I'd say there's a pretty strong link there.

And if any of these legendary Mid-Atlantic (notably, Robinson from NC has already attended a number of tournaments in both regions) or Mid-West teams want to come down for tournaments, there are plenty of them going on during the spring. We'll be running one of those old-fashioned TU/Bonus ones in March, but if any team wants to get a taste of worksheets, give-or-takes, or any other southern innovation, I'm sure there will be some tournament out there that can provide.

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Post by centralhs »

It should not be too big of a surprise that Central Gwinnett, Parkview and Grayson are somewhat down this year from last year. Central Gwinnett's entire Varsity team last year was Seniors and this year's Varsity team consists entirely of Juniors. Parkview's team last year was almost entirely Seniors. I'm not sure how many of Grayson's players from last year were Seniors, but I know that their strongest player graduated.

However, I believe that all 3 teams will eventually come around. Our team (Central Gwinnett) was 5th after the preliminaries at Chattahoochee this past weekend. We won 2 playoff games before losing to Centennial who had also beaten Walton... Centennial is a good team (though inconsistent) that gets very little attention.

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Post by AKKOLADE »

Modestly Sized Wall of Ha wrote:Lol, Fred, even I, one of the most socially inept people on the planet, can figure out Coach Barry is kidding.

Once again, Sarcasm 0, Internet Misunderstanding 683958623.
I was also kidding around in the first paragraph. Guess it's Internet Misunderstanding 683958624 now.
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Post by First Chairman »

vig180 wrote:Moving back to the topic at hand....

I've always wondered how teams with one really strong player plus a decent supporting group end up doing against teams who lack a superstar but are more balanced overall.
This comes up... and maybe we can have a thread under Theory under this. HINT!
In all honesty, it may make more sense for SC/GA teams to be talked about together because they play each other quite often (at least the top teams) and there's not much of a geographical difference between. After all, Dorman and James Island have always been major players in the GA circuit. Plus, when math computation questions center around the antics of coaches from both GA and SC teams, I'd say there's a pretty strong link there.
I don't know... there are some structural differences. Georgia has a coaches association and a state championship for starters.

Blame the people who started the thread. :wink:
And if any of these legendary Mid-Atlantic (notably, Robinson from NC has already attended a number of tournaments in both regions) or Mid-West teams want to come down for tournaments, there are plenty of them going on during the spring. We'll be running one of those old-fashioned TU/Bonus ones in March, but if any team wants to get a taste of worksheets, give-or-takes, or any other southern innovation, I'm sure there will be some tournament out there that can provide.
I think it depends on schedule, budgets, and whether you're writing house-written stuff or using an NAQT packet we would be able to gain access to for a lot shorter distance...

For the record, K2 (Kevin Keegan) also did gives-and-takes up here. Of course, if there is any interest in running an Ohio-format tournament in the South (south of NC that is)... isn't Cardinal Gibbons still doing No Buzzer Bowl??? :) :wink:
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Post by Ben_Dodson »

centralhs wrote:. I'm not sure how many of Grayson's players from last year were Seniors, but I know that their strongest player graduated.
One of their players, Mimi, was very solid I remember. She's still with Grayson this year, and if she continues to improve then Grayson could start going much farther in the playoffs.

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Post by jrbarry »

I've always wondered how teams with one really strong player plus a decent supporting group end up doing against teams who lack a superstar but are more balanced overall. In GA this year, it looks like Brookwood and Walton are both cases of the latter while Chattahoochee and Norcross are the former. Not that there's anything wrong with either one, but I've noticed that in close matches when the pressure is really on the teams with more balance may be better off over the long run.

Chattahoochee is not a team with one dominant player imo, at least not nwhen I have seen them. They have a strong cast of players any of whom can knock you back on your heels.

As far as surprises this year, I'd say Roswell and Bleckley County are two teams who have been much more competitive than I would've thought while Central Gwinnett, Grayson, and Parkview seem to be down (relative to last year) this year. Also, Chattahoochee's B team is very, very good, as is Brookwood's.

Who plays A and B at Brookwood varies, sometimes wildly. I have no set A team and no set B team.

In all honesty, it may make more sense for SC/GA teams to be talked about together because they play each other quite often (at least the top teams) and there's not much of a geographical difference between. After all, Dorman and James Island have always been major players in the GA circuit. Plus, when math computation questions center around the antics of coaches from both GA and SC teams, I'd say there's a pretty strong link there.

"The Savannah River exists no more!" You are right about GA/SC.

And if any of these legendary Mid-Atlantic (notably, Robinson from NC has already attended a number of tournaments in both regions) or Mid-West teams want to come down for tournaments, there are plenty of them going on during the spring. We'll be running one of those old-fashioned TU/Bonus ones in March, but if any team wants to get a taste of worksheets, give-or-takes, or any other southern innovation, I'm sure there will be some tournament out there that can provide.[/quote]

We down South have stolen quiz bowl formats from everywhere. We even uze Tossup/bonus formats down South! The GA State Tournament is tossup-bonus ands has been since 1989.

I sure wish I was better at indicating sarcasm.

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Post by jrbarry »

I also wish I was better at using quotes in my posts. Please forgive me. I am just a Southern boy who probably sounds like FogHorn Leghorn to some. :-)

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