NAQT IS?

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Frater Taciturnus
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NAQT IS?

Post by Frater Taciturnus »

After playing IS-62,64, and 66, I have to agree with a recent comment about this year's IS sets:
Magister Ludi wrote: However, I must say that this set of questions reflected some alarming trends in NAQT sets.

1- Inconsistency in distribution (after looking at the set there were 8 arts TUs through 9 games while there was something around 20 TUs on geography and countries in the same 9 games)
2- An over emphasis on trash and random TUs on subjects there shouldn't ever be questions on.
3- Over generous power marks. After looking at the set of questions on paper the page often looked entirely bold. It almost seemed at any point you got a TU before "FTP" you got power.

He basically nailed it with this. With so many bizarre distributions, and way too many insane tossups, naturally the question has to be asked: What is happening with NAQT, why are the IS sets seemingly falling apart, and what chance is there of this being easily resolved? Individual specific questions, of course, should not be discussed until the sets clear, but most of us who have played the set will know what is being discussed.
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Post by STPickrell »

Speaking as an interested party, I believe it may be worthwhile to have a players' survey of the high school competitors, of all levels -- both major nationals prep tournaments in the DC area and the various schools R. manages to get to play in their South Dakota tournaments.

I'm assuming that NAQT has a method of generating sets from their Big Question Database -- assuming there are sufficient questions in the Database, would it be possible to generate IS "C" sets for top-flight competition, in addition to the regular IS sets and IS "A" sets?

The "C" sets would be between regular IS and HSNCT sets in difficulty, and would presumably have more fine arts questions and less trash -- 15% trash is probably too much even in my book. What's more, these sets would be FAR more appropriate for a low-level collegiate tournament.

The "A" sets would be more geared for quizbowl weekend warrior -- they certainly do not deserve the sort of one-line puzzle questions (that emanate protests off the answer sheet) I have read about on here, but may not be as willing to play on sets that would please the top-flight teams.
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Post by Matt Weiner »

StPickrell wrote:I'm assuming that NAQT has a method of generating sets from their Big Question Database -- assuming there are sufficient questions in the Database, would it be possible to generate IS "C" sets for top-flight competition, in addition to the regular IS sets and IS "A" sets?
I don't think answer difficulty being either too high or too low is the problem that people are articulating here. Too much market segmentation seems like a misunderstanding of what pyramidal tossups and progressive-difficulty bonuses are all about, and will be a big blow to the idea of teams bettering themselves. Rather, they just need stronger, more consistent clues for the answers they are already using, as well as far less math calculation in the tossups and probably less trash too.
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Post by vcuEvan »

I wouldn't say that IS is falling apart, but there definitely is a trend towards easier questions. We usually score better on the new questions than we do practicing on questions we've already heard from last year or the year before. I'm not really that worried though. As long as the questions at nationals are as in depth and well written as last year, it should be a fair and interesting competition.
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Post by BuzzerZen »

Is it possible we've got a bit of a false cause, here? The people involved in this discussion so far have been college students, adults, and (I suspect) high school seniors who have been playing quiz bowl for a while. I've played on NAQT questions for four years now, and I know what the questions are like and where the answers are drawn from. I spend a couple hours a week practicing to get better an answering NAQT questions and I play on them at tournaments three to five times a year outside of nationals. After that much experience, it's to be expected that I would find them easier than I did as a freshman. If NAQT maintains a static level of difficulty, from my perspective, it's going to seem like the difficulty level is dropping off.

The way to check if NAQT questions are getting easier would presumably be to check the median PPTUH on each IS set over the years, but I seriously doubt anyone wants to troll the internet for stats. Considering NAQT's policy of asking their hosts for full statistics, I wouldn't be surprised if they track that kind of thing internally to some extent.
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Post by Matthew D »

That might be the case with static diffuculty but I do think there has been a steady creep of more trash into the sets.
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Post by quizbowllee »

BuzzerZen wrote:Is it possible we've got a bit of a false cause, here? The people involved in this discussion so far have been college students, adults, and (I suspect) high school seniors who have been playing quiz bowl for a while. I've played on NAQT questions for four years now, and I know what the questions are like and where the answers are drawn from. I spend a couple hours a week practicing to get better an answering NAQT questions and I play on them at tournaments three to five times a year outside of nationals. After that much experience, it's to be expected that I would find them easier than I did as a freshman. If NAQT maintains a static level of difficulty, from my perspective, it's going to seem like the difficulty level is dropping off.

The way to check if NAQT questions are getting easier would presumably be to check the median PPTUH on each IS set over the years, but I seriously doubt anyone wants to troll the internet for stats. Considering NAQT's policy of asking their hosts for full statistics, I wouldn't be surprised if they track that kind of thing internally to some extent.
Many teams at the NAQT Alabama tournament (IS-67) were STILL complaining that the questions were "too hard." So, it's hard for me to objectivly gauge the difficulty. The PPG dropoff from the top two teams in each pool to the third was DRASTIC.
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Post by Matthew D »

Part of that Lee is the state at where we are in Bama with Quiz Bowl. They think they are too hard because all they know are Questiion Galore and other awesomely written questions :shock: :chip:
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Post by Matt Weiner »

BuzzerZen wrote: After that much experience, it's to be expected that I would find them easier than I did as a freshman. If NAQT maintains a static level of difficulty, from my perspective, it's going to seem like the difficulty level is dropping off.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that people are saying that NAQT matches between top teams are seeing more buzzer races and combined 12-power games* than there were in past years, even though the top teams in past years were as good as or (e.g. in 2005) better than the top teams this year. In other words, it's not that the tossup answers have gotten easier but rather that leadins have. In an issue unrelated to difficulty structure, there also seems to be some concern about nonsense clues and the distribution.

*note that power placement really isn't that important as long as it's consistent across questions and I think people spend too much energy on this issue
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Post by Stained Diviner »

My team practiced on some very old NAQT questions this week and then played an NAQT tournament this Saturday. I don't think that there has been an increase in trash--you can argue that there should be less of it, but unless I see some solid evidence I'm not going to believe that there has been a recent increase because it has always been a part of NAQT questions.

(On a side note, we recently practiced on old PACE questions, and there was a noticeable decrease in trash questions from the first year or two of the tournament and the time when my team participated a few years ago. PACE used to have a lot of trash, and I'm glad they have changed.)

I will agree that the power marks were a bit too generous--there were a few questions where both teams were trying to buzz in and the team that got it by a tenth of a second got power. I also think the bonuses were a bit too easy--a few teams were averaging over 20 PPB, and Illinois teams generally do not finish in the top tier at national tournaments. There were a number of bonus questions that either team could have swept.

Perhaps the solution is to make the packets get more difficult over the course of the year. Perhaps NAQT should do more to encourage A Sets in weaker locales so that they can toughen up the IS sets a bit (though that isn't a perfect solution because many local tournaments attract both strong and weak teams). I agree that the power marks should be put a bit earlier.

Overall, I think NAQT still writes good questions. There are some bad ones in there, but there were more examples of bad questions in the older sets.
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Post by DumbJaques »

Can anyone give me a good reason to balance an entire set's distribution but not balance it for packet? How hard is that? I have little doubt that such would be by far the most cost effective way for NAQT to alleviate some of the concern voiced here (that is, assuming NAQT cares about said concern). In my opinion, when so many tournaments use single elimination, an unbalanced set is a very serious problem. If it's 15% trash, or 10% awful crap there should be no tossups on ever, whatever, that's a different issue, but it should be constant across sets. Also, looking at old NAQT sets reveals that art is traditionally not very difficult to power, fairly accessible even at the HS national level, and overall not on par with the other stuff. Now, it seems like art's gradually edging its way out of IS sets. As Shakespeare said, that's a bummer.
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Post by Matthew D »

Okay question about the art, would that be a function of the writer's knowledge of the subject? I know because I teach science that many of the science questions are easier for my bunch due to the fact that I have a deeper knownledge of the given subject, so they would have also.
There may have not been a increase in the amount of trash but there sure seems to have been in the ones that I have played this year compared to other packets from years past...
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Post by Mike Bentley »

I think part of the reason that Fine Arts and RMP don't show up too much in NAQT's high school sets is that the courses aren't standard requirements in most high schools. Yes, most schools do offer electives in these areas, but the percentage of students taking classes in these subjects is far less than in history, science, literature, or math. Since NAQT writes for the nation and not just the top teams with its IS-sets, I'm assuming that they feel that simply putting in even very easy RMP or Fine Arts questions often come off as being very difficult to a lot of schools because they've never really been exposed to these questions.

That's probably why they're so easy (at least to you, Chris) compared to other questions. In order to get some sort of differentiation amongst what NAQT sees as the majority (teams that primarily have not been exposed to Fine Arts or RMP), easy clues and easy leadins are used.

I'd have to agree with some others for a call for NAQT to produce sets of varying difficulty, especially for spring tournaments in competitive regions. It seems like upper echelon teams don't really have a chance to practice on anything approaching nationals level questions at a competitive level before the actual nationals tournament (although I would like to remind teams that the University of Maryland's April 29th tournament ought to fit this bill... send me an e-mail if you want to register :lol: ).
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Post by First Chairman »

I'm not sure whether it is a good idea to have packet sets of varying difficulty. Sure, as a money-making effort, it would be nice but I think the vast majority of people who compete are not the "gunners." We're reading on the other threads that the competing clubs and coaches don't like the longer questions but are happy with anagrams of Presidential names or rock stars.
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Post by DumbJaques »

In response to the art question, I find it dubious that an organization like NAQT can't dig up one solid art editor. I personally know like five.

I think the real issue is, they don't particularly care. In starting DACQ, for instance, my coworkers and I took it upon ourselves to write questions that were both useful and appropriate for high-level teams (and more importantly, emulated high levels of competition) and were just as, if not more, useful (not to mention accessible) to teams farther down the ladder. It's possible, but it's challenging. It's sure considerably more challenging than "FTPE, identify the wives of three guys who fought in the Trojan War (Odysseus, Priam, Agamemnon)." That bonus is not very good. It tells someone who knows very little about those figures and their wives next to nothing about any of them, and is even more pointless for a team with a fairish myth person or better, who will knock out a quick 30 (NOTE: not from current IS or anything, from an HSNCT a few years ago). But it takes like 30 seconds to write. An in-depth bonus with that same answer selection, even that seem lead-in, that made teams really earn their 30, that made provided new players with something of an idea of who those people were and gave experienced players new knowledge about them (or even did like 1 of those 3 things) is more of a time and effort investment. It's an investment that you see frequently among the better packet-submission teams and obviously, for all the other complaints this year, in ACF. I'm not saying NAQT doesn't care about their questions, but if their are people writing for them who don't care as much as they should (say, an art editor), I wouldn't think it would be hard to find someone to step in and fill that kind of a role.

EDIT:
I think part of the reason that Fine Arts and RMP don't show up too much in NAQT's high school sets is that the courses aren't standard requirements in most high schools. Yes, most schools do offer electives in these areas, but the percentage of students taking classes in these subjects is far less than in history, science, literature, or math. Since NAQT writes for the nation and not just the top teams with its IS-sets, I'm assuming that they feel that simply putting in even very easy RMP or Fine Arts questions often come off as being very difficult to a lot of schools because they've never really been exposed to these questions.
Dude, I guess I missed my high school's elective on Pacific Island geography, Oklahoma City, and potatoes. Seriously, most schools don't have current events classes, geography classes (not counting fifth grade), pop culture classes, or classes on the random crap NAQT thinks it will be "fun" to write tossups on as part of their core curriculum. Those things comprise like close to 40% of the current IS canon. Also, most schools can't offer their kids astronomy classes, and relying on four years of English to cover you for all lit questions is ludicrous. People can look at art, read about mythology (much like they can read about, you know, literary characters. In books). High school students also frequently have a very high chance of being exposed to music in school (much higher than their chance of being exposed to the history of the tuber), but I'm willing to bet music theory doesn't get significantly more exposure than vegetables these days. I know you weren't saying that this is admirable or defending it or anything, but the notion that a tossup on Racine is more accessible to high schoolers than Constable or Myron because people can take French classes is ridiculous. Again, this is quizbowl, not AP exam trivia night. Nobdoy is calling for 2/2 Pontormo and Bronzino here, but there's a pretty big gap between that and 8 art tossups in 14 24-question packets.
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Post by brownboy79 »

Recently KAAC (Kentucky Association for Academic Competition, I think) changed a test from General Knowledge to Arts and Humanities. And people decided that this was better, because it fit into the type of learning that Kentucky wants to promote. Just like that, NAQT is making an effort to say that certain types of subject learning are what it wants to facilitate. And not just book knowledge too, pop culture as well.
I'm just hazarding a guess, but it makes sense to me.
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Post by swwFCqb »

DumbJaques wrote:
most schools don't have current events classes, geography classes (not counting fifth grade), pop culture classes, or classes on the random crap NAQT thinks it will be "fun" to write tossups on as part of their core curriculum.
I would agree with you on most of those, but do most schools really not offer geography classes? Because I go to a crappy, little Catholic school, and it is a required class for everyone.
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Post by Chico the Rainmaker »

swwFCqb wrote: I would agree with you on most of those, but do most schools really not offer geography classes? Because I go to a crappy, little Catholic school, and it is a required class for everyone.
I went to a public high school of 3400 or so students in Southern California and geography was not offered. Maybe this varies by region?
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Post by Zip Zap Rap Pants »

swwFCqb wrote:DumbJaques wrote:
most schools don't have current events classes, geography classes (not counting fifth grade), pop culture classes, or classes on the random crap NAQT thinks it will be "fun" to write tossups on as part of their core curriculum.
I would agree with you on most of those, but do most schools really not offer geography classes?
No, for the most part. And coming from the "Governor's School for Government and International Studies," that says something, though to some degree 9th and 10th grade history teachers were expected to incorporate it somewhat, plus there was always the option of AP Geography. I've always been pretty self motivated to learn geo myself, so it's no big deal...but as for art, it was required that you take at least one art class while in high school, and that was considered pretty low. Half the people (myself included) who just took one art class to get the requirement out of the way took an art history class, which was useful for quizbowl. But in any case, as Chris has said before, when is NAQT supposed to substitute or test classroom learning? Quizbowl is all about asking a wide and balanced variety of questions, and keeping people well rounded in what they should know. You shouldn't cut out a topic because people never learned it, otherwise there would be 0% trash, and you'd have to throw out half the lit at the more difficult tournaments.
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Post by NoahMinkCHS »

Matt Morrison wrote:But in any case, as Chris has said before, when is NAQT supposed to substitute or test classroom learning? Quizbowl is all about asking a wide and balanced variety of questions, and keeping people well rounded in what they should know. You shouldn't cut out a topic because people never learned it, otherwise there would be 0% trash, and you'd have to throw out half the lit at the more difficult tournaments.
For what it's worth, NAQT did not say that; someone upthread was making a guess as to why NAQT constructs sets the way they do. Beyond that initial suggestion (which has been strongly countered), I think the class vs. quizbowl issue is secondary to the major issues here, and at any rate, since curriculum varies so much between states (and even within states), I doubt a national company spends much time worrying about it.

My guess -- and they're all guesses until someone from NAQT comments -- is in agreement with several others here. I think NAQT is in the difficult position of wanting to expand its business to new schools (meaning you need easier questions and earlier power marks to ramp up excitement) but still needing to cater to established customers (many of whom have built up enough NAQT experience to be able to put up good numbers on all but the most challenging sets). So you end up with writers/editors not knowing what an appropriate difficulty is, and thus complaints like we're hearing now. Increased use of A series might help, but generally all teams in an area (good and bad) will come to a tournament and both sides would have reason to complain if the set were much easier or harder (like with the "C-series" or a harder IS) than what they expected. The A series will always be useful almost completely to new players (JV) or places where everyone is in transition to NAQT-style quizbowl.
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Post by Matt Weiner »

NoahMinkCHS wrote:The A series will always be useful almost completely to new players (JV) or places where everyone is in transition to NAQT-style quizbowl.
Yeah, right. Like the teams who put up 400 points a game in their first outing are ever going to accept that they aren't really that good and deal with regular questions. This is the same thinking that encourages college players to play high school sets in order to "ease the transition"...ten years later and it looks like some people just can't get enough easing.

The A-levels project seems like a disaster for the long-term competitiveness and academic rigor of high school quizbowl, and further use of it, like any more stratification, will only make it worse.
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Post by aestheteboy »

When I sent NAQT the results from my tournament, I very briefly mentioned that there are some complaints about IS sets. NAQT was kind enough to explain to me in detail why their distribution is the way it is. Hentzel essentially said that he is in a difficult position because he has to create sets played by the whole nation, and there is no consensus across the nation as to what is the "good" distribution.

He also added
R. Hentzel wrote: Please do send us your comments (and encourage other players and
coaches to do the same); we read everything and discuss it. If we get
enough comments leaning in one direction, we'll probably do a survey
(like we did for our college distribution last year) and may swing
things in the direction of the majority for 2007-2008.
So, please do send your opinion to NAQT.
As a frame of reference:
PACE (# of Tossups/Bonuses per round):
Science & Math 6/6; History 6/5; Literature 5/5; Arts 3/3; Religion, Mythology, Philosophy 3/3; Social Science 1/2; Geography 1/2; Current Events 1/2; General Knowledge 1/1; Trash 1/1

NAQT (taken from collegiate survey):
Current Events 7.5%; Fine Arts 7.0%; Foreign Language 0.5%; Geography 7.0%; General Knowledge/Mixed 5.5%; History 18.5%; Literature/Mythology 18.5%; Popular Culture 7.5%; Philosophy 2.0%; Science 18.5%; Sports 4.0%; Social Science 3.5%

I wouldn't say IS sets are falling apart. As far as I know, NAQT distribution was never good. I would actually be very happy with NAQT if the distribution improved. I think the poor answer selection is a side effect of poor distribution (e.g. I can live with stupid animal/vegetable question if it only occurs once every two set or something).
Difficulty and power mark placement isn't such a big problem, in my opinion. Although I agree that the sets aren't difficult enough to be helpful to the very best teams, NAQT probably can't make profit without aiming at a somewhat lower skill level.
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Post by DumbJaques »

I thought NAQT questions were very hard when I first played them. I thought they were long and confusing, and I wouldn't get more than a handful per tournament on a B or C team. I wasn't quizzed by my coach, wasn't forced to study, nor were any of dozens of players I know for whom the above was also true. What's wrong with questions being hard for first time players? If you cant figure out a way to make questions accessible to first-time teams without cheapening them, you SHOULDN'T CHEAPEN THEM.
and they're all guesses until someone from NAQT comments
Good luck.
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Post by Captain Sinico »

I agree with Hentzel. If you've got something to say to NAQT, you should say it to NAQT (posting here is good, too, but none of us can actually change anything.)

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Post by cvdwightw »

RandomScreenname wrote:I went to a public high school of 3400 or so students in Southern California and geography was not offered. Maybe this varies by region?
I went to a public high school of anywhere between 2000 and 3000 students (they opened up a new one my sophomore year) in Southern California and geography was a required freshman class starting my sophomore or junior year. Every school has a slightly different curriculum of offered and required courses, so it probably varies from school to school and district to district.

I actually think geography and math calculation have a place in the high school game, certainly more so than in the college game if we're judging by "how does what (is/would be hypothetically) learned in class translate to quiz bowl?" criteria. I had no exposure to philosophy/religion/arts outside quiz bowl and Academic Decathlon, although we were required to take a unit of Greek mythology in freshman English and several of my teammates took AP Psychology. I don't think there's a clearly definable set of rules for packet distributions (witness the differences in packet requirements among several of the past few years' "well-edited" college tournaments), and if NAQT wants to make their distribution x% history, y% literature, z% science, and w% stuff with no clearly definable category, that's their decision. I've actually thought regular IS sets got progressively harder from about 2000-2001 to 2005-2006, so maybe they reached a point where they did decide their questions were too hard to get the expanded audience they want.
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Post by fluffy4102 »

I have recently noticed four things in a few invitational series packets:

1. Power marks are a lot later in the question than they should be. I don't hear "just missed power" anymore.
2. Some of the clues are just plain wrong. (Won't give question details but it has happened at least twice this past year).
3. Repetition of the same question (with the same clue) in the same packet but in bonus format
4. Increased trash

Increased trash is not really a concern. Recruiting doesn't fare well with just literature and science (though I wouldn't mind an increase).

While I think a small fraction of invitational questions are declining in quality, NAQT HSNCT is always top notch. It's trivial to talk about inflated egos. Eventually anyone who thinks they're teh h4x0rs will realize what true quizbowl's about.
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Post by Matthew D »

Matt Weiner wrote: The A-levels project seems like a disaster for the long-term competitiveness and academic rigor of high school quizbowl, and further use of it, like any more stratification, will only make it worse.
I have to agree with Matt here, the A packets are the ones I use for the most part with my junior high kids and those that are brand new 1st year players but by Christmas, I really try to have most of them playing on the regular IS sets but I do host a beginning of the year tournament that uses an A set just because it is the first of the year and the state of quizbowl in my state of AL, but I might rethink this after all of this conversion...
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Post by quizbowllee »

Matthew D wrote:
Matt Weiner wrote: The A-levels project seems like a disaster for the long-term competitiveness and academic rigor of high school quizbowl, and further use of it, like any more stratification, will only make it worse.
I have to agree with Matt here, the A packets are the ones I use for the most part with my junior high kids and those that are brand new 1st year players but by Christmas, I really try to have most of them playing on the regular IS sets but I do host a beginning of the year tournament that uses an A set just because it is the first of the year and the state of quizbowl in my state of AL, but I might rethink this after all of this conversion...
Wouldn't hurt my feelings if you used a regular IS set next year.
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Post by David Riley »

My $0.02 worth:

I agree with the person upthread who said that we should make suggestoins directly to NAQT. Having said that :grin:

In Illinois, the only teams that like NAQT questions are competitive teams, though several of our coaches have tried to expand the field to include other than the usual suspects.

But think about it: as mentioned above, NAQT is a business. Curricula being so varied, I agree that it is virtually impossible to pkease "all of the people all of the time". Those of us who like NAQT questions may be victims of our success in "spreading the NAQT gospel". For ecample, if everyone in Illinois all of a sudden emraced NAQT, about 70% of the teams in this state would cry that the questions were too hard. If NAQT wanted to keep our business, they would have to satisfy the law of supply and demand, and to an extent, they do this with the "A" level sets. But most of Illinois' teams are married to the IHSA distribution (for 30 questions, this would be 6 each of literature/language arts, science, math, and social studies, with 4 arts and 2 miscellaneous) and there are no divorce lawyers in sight.




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