How should I do this round robin?

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olsb25
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How should I do this round robin?

Post by olsb25 » Mon Mar 19, 2007 7:58 pm

Right now, the DAT will have 13 teams, hopefully adding a scab team to make it an odd number. The problem is, we only have time to do 6 preliminary rounds, so what's the best way to do a two-division round robin?

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Post by AKKOLADE » Mon Mar 19, 2007 8:46 pm

Moved to theory since it's more of a theoretical question about how to run a tournament.

If you get 14 teams, you will need seven rounds to do two seven-team round robins (assuming, of course, you have 8 rooms that you can have run). An eight-team RR requires the same number of teams. For seven rounds, your best round robin option seems to be a partial round robin of all the teams.

Maybe Swiss Pairs would be the best route to go?

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Post by olsb25 » Mon Mar 19, 2007 8:53 pm

Well, I don't really have the software for it, and it's our first tournament, so I'd rather not have to worry about the pairings working out correctly.

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Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) » Mon Mar 19, 2007 8:57 pm

Lots of the software is free. I could get you some links.
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Post by olsb25 » Mon Mar 19, 2007 9:01 pm

Still, I hear that a lot of the software is buggy, and I'll be stressed out enough on Saturday. We also don't have enough time (I think) to quickly enter in the stats and figure out the next round. If there is software in which I can quickly enter in team scores and it would give me a next round within minutes, and go back and put in individual stats in later, that would work out.

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Post by Zip Zap Rap Pants » Tue Mar 20, 2007 12:37 am

http://www.hsquizbowl.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3447

Otherwise you'd pretty much have to do 7 rounds (one being a bye round) with 14 teams, but Swiss pairing sounds best.
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Post by pakman044 » Tue Mar 20, 2007 1:22 am

I'll assume for the purposes of this post that doing a swiss pair is probably not practical. So that being said, here are a few ideas:

*14 teams.
With 14 teams, you could have 2 divisions of 7 teams each. But this requires 7 rounds, since one team must be left out each round.

In order to shrink your schedule down to 6 rounds, one of those rounds must be removed. But doing that removes one team's bye round, so one team in your division plays six games while everyone else plays five. Not so fun.

To keep everyone playing the same number of games, since each division yields a team on bye each round, take those teams and match them up. Then you remove one round. This is still a little unfair, as one team in each division will play the entire division round robin with no crossover, while everyone else in the division gets a crossover game. In addition this solution will cause schedule imbalancing issues. But it keeps everyone playing the same number of games, which is a critical issue (it isn't really fair to force one team to play one extra game that must be counted towards the standings than everyone else). And since the teams in the division will be mostly playing the same schedule, they will be fairly comparable. One way or another, there are going to be comparison problems because the next best alternative is to Fred's idea to do a partial round robin among all 14 teams (which is also introduces vastly different schedules). One warning: you need to be careful that the divisions are as homogenous as possible so at least the probabilities of getting favorable/unfavorable crossover matches are more or less equal.

*15 teams.
Make 3 divisions of 5 teams each (each team gets 4 prelim rounds). If that's too few guaranteed games, take all 15 teams to the playoffs and give the top seed a bye (this gives 5 guaranteed games, which is what you would have if you had only 12 teams).

*13 teams.
The 14 team cheat doesn't work because only 1 team has a bye each round.

One idea would be to take the bye team in the 7 round division and make them play the packet seperately, and then take their score against the average round score. This gives each team in the 7 round division 6 games, but one team has to play 6 real games while the others play 5 real games with 1 artificial game. I'm not thrilled with this idea.

Another idea is to take the 7 round setup (with 1 team having a bye each round). Then choose two rounds to remove. This yields 5 rounds, with each team playing each 4 out of 6 teams. Then take the two teams that had byes in the two removed rounds (which would lack byes in the shortened schedule) and remove their game from the schedule. This means that in the 7 team division, it will take 5 rounds to complete. Each team will have one bye, and will play 4 of the 6 teams in the division. This makes the divisions less equal, and makes a 13-team incomplete round robin more enticing, but most of the teams in the 7 team division will still have similar schedules (less similar than before).

For a sample of what I mean, see this page.

I'm not thrilled with any of these solutions I'm offering, but given your limitations, it may be the best you can do given the round restrictions and the desire not do a Swiss pair--which for many tournaments may not be a viable option.

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Post by tabstop » Tue Mar 20, 2007 11:04 am

Six rounds is, I think, fairly hopeless. Any round-robin requires an odd number of rounds to finish, so if you can squeeze out another round somewhere to get to seven, you can run pools of seven. If you could convince someone to stay home, you could run two different 3x4 round robins (three rounds, shuffle, three more rounds). (Actually, I would keep this idea in the back of your head somewhere, just in case someone doesn't show day-of.)

If you absolutely positively cannot go *over* six rounds, then the schedules are going to be unbalanced: either an unfinished 7-team round robin, or some weird 5-5-5-with-byes-and-crossovers-and-an-extra-round that I don't even want to suggest for fear someone will actually do it.

I think the lesson here is clear: never plan for an even number of preliminary rounds.

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Post by olsb25 » Tue Mar 20, 2007 11:52 am

Thanks a lot for your help. Looks like I'll either add a round, or do the above described solution for 6 rounds. We were planning to have a play-in for the playoffs, so every team qualifies for the main playoffs, but I may do a single-elim with the other 6 teams or have no consolation playoffs at all.

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Post by Deviant Insider » Tue Mar 20, 2007 11:57 am

Seed the teams #1-#14.

Round I:
Match 1: #1 v #13
Match 2: #6 v #10
Match 3: #2 v #14
Match 4: #5 v #9
Match 5: #3 v #12
Match 6: #4 v #11
Match 7: #7 v #8

Round II: (Note: 1W is the winner of Match 1, 1L is the loser of Match 1)
Match 8: 1W v 2W
Match 9: 1L v 2L
Match 10: 3W v 4W
Match 11: 3L v 4L
Match 12: 5W v 6W
Match 13: 7W v 6L
Match 14: 5L v 7L

Round III:
Match 15: 8W v 10W
Match 16: 12W v 11L
Match 17: 9L v 12L
Match 18: 10L v 14L
Match 19: 8L v 13L
Match 20: 9W v 13W
Match 21: 11W v 14W

Round IV:
Match 22: 15W v 21W
Match 23: 15L v 20W
Match 24: 16W v 19W
Match 25: 17W v 18W
Match 26: 20L v 21L
Match 27: 16L v 19L
Match 28: 17L v 18L

Round V:
Match 29: 22W v 25W
Match 30: 23W v 24W
Match 31: 25L v 26W
Match 32: 24L v 26L
Match 33: 23L v 27W
Match 34: 22L v 28W
Match 35: 27L v 28L

Round VI:
Match 36: 29W v 30W
Match 37: 30L v 34W
Match 38: 29L v 33W
Match 39: 31W v 32W
Match 40: 31L v 35L
Match 41: 32L v 35W
Match 42: 33L v 34L

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Post by olsb25 » Tue Mar 20, 2007 12:20 pm

Thank you so much for working this entire thing out. This is a much better solution than adding another round or doing some pseudo-round robin.

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Post by Deviant Insider » Tue Mar 20, 2007 12:45 pm

There probably will be some repeat matches, but they should be small in number.

The winner of Match 36 should be the automatic #1 seed in the afternoon, and the loser of Match 36 along with the winners of Matches 37-39 should get the next four seeds based on head-to-head play among themselves.

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Post by Frater Taciturnus » Wed Mar 21, 2007 7:45 pm

I still think the seven rounds method would be easiest. Assuming 35 minutes per round, thats still only a little over 4 hours. A 9 AM start would put that at 1. lunch takes you to 2, then 4 rounds playoff makes ~4:30. Giving teams their next room assignment adds more time to each round, and drags things on.
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Post by olsb25 » Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:05 pm

What I'm going to do is tell each volunteer where to send the winner and loser of each round.

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