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Keeping Score In-Game

Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 7:05 pm
by Wall of Ham
Because I'm very bored, and because this Theory section is dying, I have a question.

Do you or your team keep score in-game?

I can see both sides, because knowing the score is helpful in close matches, i.e. to know how much risk you should take and how many tossups you need to get to win.

However, it can be distracting in knowing exacly how much you are winning/losing, whether its just plain mental or its the trouble of writing down the score and focusing less on the questions. And one can just ask the moderators in a time out.


Another question is: How do you keep score?

Do you just write down the difference or keep the point totals for both side.

I know I don't keep score, but if my teammate does, I take a peek. Knowing the score doesn't really matter to my performance, however, it always seems as if our team is losing or it's close even if we're up by a hundred points.

Just . . . curious.

Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 7:23 pm
by Skepticism and Animal Feed
In many formats, a difference in the score means a difference in what constitutes rational play.

In Illinois Scholastic Bowl, for instance, if at the last tossup you're ahead just 10 points and the other team makes an incorrect interrupt, it is rational for you not to buzz, as with the bounceback bonus they might win the game. If you're up by 100 and they make an incorrect interrupt, it is rational for you to buzz in, because then you pad the points scored stat, which can be an important tiebreaker.

Likewise, in NAQT or any timed format, whether or not you take a time-killing neg depends on what the score is.

It follows that, at least in these formats, it is rational to keep score. Also, in formats where strategy does not change based on score, the official scorekeeper could still make a mistake that might have to be resolved by consulting players who were keeping score.

As for keeping score, I use the standard absolute scoring, where you keep track of how many points each team has. However, at ACF Nationals 2005, I leaned over Matt Weiner's shoulder and saw that he was keeping relative score, keeping track only of the difference in score between the two teams.

I've considered switching to relative score myself. I'd like for Matt to come and lecture us on its benefits.

Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 8:53 pm
by ASimPerson
In HS, I kept score late in the game if it was close - we had a coach to keep the book otherwise.

For college, I keep statistics for the whole team, which means I keep track of the running score for each team and who on our team gets each tossup. It's pretty detailed.

Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 9:02 pm
by dtaylor4
I keep absolute score to double-check my opponents and offical scorer. I note who negs, who gets the tossup, what the tossup answer is, was it power, and the points on the bonus as well as a running total. It's relatively easy, and doesn't keep me out of the flow of the game.

Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 9:36 pm
by Irreligion in Bangladesh
In Illinois, it's much too easy for a player to keep score on the paper not to do it. With some tournaments using non-affiliated students to keep official or board score, it can really come in handy having a second opinion on the next desk. One of my teammates from last year kept score and saved the sheets for an stats archive.

Then again, Illinois is untimed with obscene breaks in the action. Tons of time to keep score, so it may just even be something to do to keep from getting bored.

Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 10:46 pm
by Captain Sinico
I keep basically running full stats for both teams, including the answer to each tossup, in my notebook. I can do this without breaking my attention at any time when it matters, even in fast-paced games (e.g. NAQT ICT games.) I find this helps in many ways including but not limited to: knowing the score at all times; being able to check anyone else's version score with precision at all times (e.g. when the scorekeeper makes an error, nb: when); gaining some insight into an opponent's strengths, weaknesses, and proclivities in a match; knowing what sort of questions are likely to come if I know the distribution; and knowing what answers I may need to study-up on later (I usually will underline tossup answers I think I should have gotten but didn't and study them later.) Thus I think it's a fairly good idea to keep score and encourage the practice.

MaS

Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 11:28 pm
by JohnAndSlation
DaGeneral wrote:I keep absolute score to double-check my opponents and offical scorer...It's relatively easy, and doesn't keep me out of the flow of the game.

I agree. I only keep track of total points on both sides (unless Coach is there), and one of my teammates usually keeps track of points by TU. I've had quite a few matches where there's been a disagreement in score that's been settled by the players who kept track. The pauses between questions make it fairly easy to keep score and stay in the game.

Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 12:41 pm
by Maxwell Sniffingwell
JohnandSlation wrote:I agree. I only keep track of total points on both sides (unless Coach is there), and one of my teammates usually keeps track of points by TU.
I'm the aforementioned teammate... I keep track of each tossup - who (by player and team) gets it and how many points go to each team on the bonus, plus running totals.

This is easier in Illinois format, where you know the number of tossups in advance... if I want to, I can set up a scorekeeping grid during the moderator instructions/etc. period. I don't need to, though, and I find that scorekeeping takes no attention away from the game.

As for the when-to-take-a-guess, etc. situations: I pay attention to the score just before and just after every question, but not during. Except in the rare - you're up by 5 on tossup 20 of 20, they got it wrong, DO NOT BUZZ - situation, any thoughts of score change to do I know this? the moment the question starts to be read.

Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 3:57 pm
by cvdwightw
I have kept absolute score and individual stats for my team since my junior year in high school. I find this is better to deal with scorekeeper error (since things like PPG or Bonus Conversion, that can't be corrected using relative score, end up as tiebreakers). Based on the responses in this thread, I will try to keep track of tossup answers as well.

On the other hand, I have heard coaches who say they want their players to maintain a certain style of play regardless of score, and so no one on that team keeps score.

The biggest issue that I have is that sometimes teammates may be more concerned with the score/previous answers than the questions. I remember a tournament at which Seth Teitler became distracted by a freshman teammate he had to continually push away from his scoresheet.

Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 8:45 pm
by Skepticism and Animal Feed
cvdwightw wrote:I remember a tournament at which Seth Teitler became distracted by a freshman teammate he had to continually push away from his scoresheet.
I was a sophomore, not a freshman.

Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 9:39 pm
by jrbarry
I prefer our team players NOT keep stats or score of any kind while they are playing. Should we near the end of a match and they need to know what the score is, I will ask for a score check.

Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 11:25 pm
by Captain Sinico
jrbarry wrote:I prefer our team players NOT keep stats or score of any kind while they are playing. Should we near the end of a match and they need to know what the score is, I will ask for a score check.
Why is that? Just saying you prefer NOT doesn't really add much to the discussion. Also, a lot of people were making the point that keeping score has value exactly because the official score is often wrong, which is both true and not ameliorated by asking for a score check. Also, you're begging the question of needing to know what the score is (i.e. you need to know the score if it's close one way or another, but if you don't know the score, you can't know if you need to know the score.)

MaS

Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 11:51 pm
by DrakeRQB
I keep the official score and my captain keeps the point differential - that was the same system I used when I was a player. If it's very close at toward the end of the match I'll ask for a score check so the kids know exactly what we need/what the other team has to have.

Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 8:19 am
by Tegan
I know there have been a ton of Illinoise folks here, but I'll just two more points into the ring:

The Illinois Coaches Association prints up scorebooks to use during the season in 50 and 100 match formats. They are a boon in terms of keeping track of results and stats. The nice thing is, I have used them for a number of different formats, and it is very easily adaptable. (http://www.ihssbca.org should have info if you are intereseted in owning an honest-to-goodness quiz bowl scorebook).

As for players keeping score in matches. If I'm physically in the room, I don't see a point to players worrying about tracking score. I'm watching it, and if it is close near the end, I will generally call a time out and review endgame startegy with them (though having a good captain and competent players, this is just to remind them). I have one obsessive/compulsive player who keeps score and constantly bugs the moderator for score checks even though I'm there watching the score. I've told him this is unnecessary, but I don't find it an annoyance yet to insist under penalty of pain that he stop.

When I'm not in the room, it's a good idea for someone to keep an independent score to confirm the board score.

Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 9:33 am
by Stained Diviner
I prefer it when my students don't keep score during matches. In high school, there is no need for students to keep a log of the match, check the score, or figure out endgame strategy because there is a coach. In my experience, students do get distracted by the score. Some of it is figuring out how many more questions we need to clinch a win or still have a chance.

The bigger problem, however, is confidence. When my team gets a 50+ point lead early in the match, they start underestimating the level of competition and get too slow on the buzzers. When my team falls that far behind, they start to think that blowing the next question will ruin their chances, and panic soon sets in. In almost all circumstances, I want my students to play against the questions more than they play against the other team (which I realize is a fuzzy philosophical construct), so we are better off ignoring the score.

Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 10:38 am
by Matthew D
I have to agree on that point... I can panic enough for the whole team, they just need to keep their minds on the game.

Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 11:31 am
by evilmonkey
For me to perform once I get into a match, I need to keep score. My brain works in a way that I need to be doing something that does not require much thinking at the same time in order to actually register what a question is asking. Playing with numbers also helps me relax and focus more on the game. Last year the Culver captain would draw intricate drawings in the middle of a question, stopping only for the 3 seconds it took to answer. For me, numbers are beautiful, and are my art. Keeping score also helps me to be optimistic about our chances. If I feel we are getting smoked, but the other team is only up 200 and there are still ten questions to go, i feel much better.

Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 12:26 pm
by Deckard Cain
I have always kept a running score, for many of the reasons outlined above. Initially my HS coach was concerned it would distract me from the game, but I have repeatedly found the opposite to be true, especially in very close games.

Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 5:15 pm
by swwFCqb
I prefer it when my students don't keep score during matches. In high school, there is no need for students to keep a log of the match, check the score, or figure out endgame strategy because there is a coach. In my experience, students do get distracted by the score. Some of it is figuring out how many more questions we need to clinch a win or still have a chance.
I understand and respect this mentality from a coach's perspective, but I don't see the problem with letting a player keep score during a match, AS LONG AS it is not distracting him. I understand that some players might not be able to keep score and play effectively at the same time, but I think that the ones who want to keep score are generally the ones that can easily do so without being distracted. I don't know how others feel, but I would not want to keep track of the score if I knew that my ability to answer questions was being hindered (and most kids can tell when they are not playing up to snuff). So I'd say go ahead and let the kid keep score, and then if there is a problem, stop him. As stated by Deckard Cain, some kids might even find it beneficial to know the score and situation that they are in. Some players play their best in clutch situations, and knowing that the last question is coming up in a tie match may be helpful to them.

Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 9:46 pm
by Djibouti
Knowing the score definitely helps in the last round, when you (the Captain/teammates) have to gauge when to be a little more daring, when to be more cautious, and generally what your team has to do to win. I've always kept in-match scores, and it not only helps to verify the moderators score (every other match the score is off in some round), but also helps me to focus and manage the team better. Yesterday, at UMD, when we were behind in the latter round, we knew exactly what we needed to do b/c we kept score; it also helped provide momentum knowing we were closing the gap or just went ahead.

Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 1:01 am
by cvdwightw
Bruce wrote:
cvdwightw wrote:I remember a tournament at which Seth Teitler became distracted by a freshman teammate he had to continually push away from his scoresheet.
I was a sophomore, not a freshman.
Interesting you should point this out, as I was talking about a former Berkeley player who as far as I know has never even read these forums.

Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 2:38 pm
by rchschem
Keeping score does take away from the momentum-breaking, pause-inducing emergency score check request that coaches love to ask for at question 18 out of a 20 question set.

Or am I the only person who does that? :oops:

I have never encouraged score keeping by players. If they want to do it, and many do at some point in their careers, they can. I have never seen it interfere in the progress of a game.

Eric

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 1:47 am
by Manyo2
I kept score basically every game my last 3 years of hs and will most likely continue in college. It is extremely helpful to know the score, and my teammates were always very grateful to me for doing it. It never slowed me down nor did it ever impact my concentration that I could tell.

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:16 am
by jrbarry
ImmaculateDeception wrote:
jrbarry wrote:I prefer our team players NOT keep stats or score of any kind while they are playing. Should we near the end of a match and they need to know what the score is, I will ask for a score check.
Why is that? Just saying you prefer NOT doesn't really add much to the discussion. Also, a lot of people were making the point that keeping score has value exactly because the official score is often wrong, which is both true and not ameliorated by asking for a score check. Also, you're begging the question of needing to know what the score is (i.e. you need to know the score if it's close one way or another, but if you don't know the score, you can't know if you need to know the score.)

MaS
It is my PREFERENCE which is why I said i PREFER, Mr I.C. I am not dogmatic on the issue. My reasoning is that it MIGHT detract from a player's concentration. And I, as an observer in the audience, will make sure they know what the score is at the point it is crucial to know, as the matrch nears completion.

I have had several kids, especially captains, who have indeed kept score with no problem as far as I could see. On a couple of occasions I could see it was a distraction so I told them to quit doing it.

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:53 am
by AKKOLADE
jrbarry wrote: It is my PREFERENCE which is why I said i PREFER, Mr I.C. I am not dogmatic on the issue. My reasoning is that it MIGHT detract from a player's concentration. And I, as an observer in the audience, will make sure they know what the score is at the point it is crucial to know, as the matrch nears completion.

I have had several kids, especially captains, who have indeed kept score with no problem as far as I could see. On a couple of occasions I could see it was a distraction so I told them to quit doing it.
He was just asking you to expound your opinion since your original statement was essentially, "I don't like my players keeping score." As you didn't explain your reasoning for it, there's nothing wrong with someone asking for the reasoning.

Also, you can use bold/italics/underline instead of all caps for emphasis purposes. Capitalized words translate to "yelling" online and typically are considered impolite if not used sparingly.

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 9:12 pm
by jbarnes112358
leftsaidfred wrote: He was just asking you to expound your opinion since your original statement was essentially, "I don't like my players keeping score." As you didn't explain your reasoning for it, there's nothing wrong with someone asking for the reasoning.

Also, you can use bold/italics/underline instead of all caps for emphasis purposes. Capitalized words translate to "yelling" online and typically are considered impolite if not used sparingly.
I considered the reasons behind Mr. Barry's original statement to be more or less self-evident. And while there is nothing wrong with asking for a fuller explanation, I can see how the aggressively argumentative tone of I.C.'s [sic] query might elicit a little "yelling" in response.

But, returning to the actual topic: It is important for players to know the score of the game except possibly in obvious runaway situations. If a player is not keeping score then a coach or someone following the team should at least be checking for scoring errors. As has already been mentioned, in close games, knowing the score can help in developing playing strategies down the stretch.

I believe a player who can handle it should be encouraged to keep up with the score. Having the players remaining ignorant of the score can also be distracting to them as they sometimes get all worried, or at least curious, when they don't know the status of the game.

I agree that all the data that I.D. collects can be useful; but, most players would probabaly have a difficult time managing that level of record-keeping in a game situation. Then again, maybe it would just be a matter of practicing in order to get used to doing it. Some could pull it off; others could not. Some of that data collecting might, in most cases, be better left to a coach or other designated person on the sidelines.

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:58 pm
by swwFCqb
I'd also like to stress, to those out there that are still in high school, that if your quiz team has no coach present at the match, then one of your players should probably keep score during the match. Once last year, our team would have actually lost a close match if I hadn't been keeping score. The other team didn't have a coach present, so the moderator and I were the only ones keeping score, and I was able to correct his mistakes because I was doing so. Therefore, if you care at all about how your team does, then this is a very good idea.

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 3:44 pm
by Captain Sinico
jbarnes112358 wrote:I considered the reasons behind Mr. Barry's original statement to be more or less self-evident. And while there is nothing wrong with asking for a fuller explanation, I can see how the aggressively argumentative tone of I.C.'s [sic] query might elicit a little "yelling" in response.
If merely and concisely asking someone to explain something in a thread the entire point of which is to explain that thing now qualifies as "aggressively argumentative," then what exactly is what you're doing right here? Also, if the reason someone prefers something is self-evident, then it would seem more self-evident that that person shouldn't bother posting in a thread the purpose of which to explain why one prefers something or not.

Aggressively argumentatively,
MaS

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 7:07 pm
by AKKOLADE
jbarnes112358 wrote:I considered the reasons behind Mr. Barry's original statement to be more or less self-evident. And while there is nothing wrong with asking for a fuller explanation, I can see how the aggressively argumentative tone of I.C.'s [sic] query might elicit a little "yelling" in response.
Agree to disagree, I suppose. I fail to see how the post was self-evident. I also don't find Michael's tone argumentative or aggressive. It's a minor issue, however, and one that really does not necessitate continued discussion.

To continue the necessary conversation, I would advise at least one person on a team to keep score, particularly if the coach is not available (as swwFCqb smartly points out). It all boils down to if the player feels comfortable keeping track of such a thing.

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 8:34 pm
by jbarnes112358
ImmaculateDeception wrote: If merely and concisely asking someone to explain something in a thread the entire point of which is to explain that thing now qualifies as "aggressively argumentative," then what exactly is what you're doing right here? Also, if the reason someone prefers something is self-evident, then it would seem more self-evident that that person shouldn't bother posting in a thread the purpose of which to explain why one prefers something or not.

MaS
That your post was argumentative is without question. Many of your posts are in that category. Nothing wrong with a little debate now and then, which is why I am prolonging the discussion, I suppose. I do read many of your posts and enjoy following your arguments. You have excellent logical debating skills. I was prompted to add the word "aggressively" after you you said,

"Just saying you prefer NOT doesn't really add much to the discussion."

I can see why someone could take offense to that. Maybe it's just an offense to our Southern sensibilities.

As to the "self-evident" point. Prior posts had explained why players might be distracted by keeping score. Is there really any other possible argument for not keeping score? I can't think of any, which is why I assumed that is what he meant. Rather than providing any new argument, I interpreted his post as more of a vote than anything else. Having someone who is so influential in HS quiz bowl weigh in with an opinion does, in my opinion, add to the discussion.

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 9:21 pm
by DumbJaques
That your post was argumentative is without question. Many of your posts are in that category. Nothing wrong with a little debate now and then, which is why I am prolonging the discussion, I suppose. I do read many of your posts and enjoy following your arguments. You have excellent logical debating skills. I was prompted to add the word "aggressively" after you you said,

"Just saying you prefer NOT doesn't really add much to the discussion."

I can see why someone could take offense to that. Maybe it's just an offense to our Southern sensibilities.

As to the "self-evident" point. Prior posts had explained why players might be distracted by keeping score. Is there really any other possible argument for not keeping score? I can't think of any, which is why I assumed that is what he meant. Rather than providing any new argument, I interpreted his post as more of a vote than anything else. Having someone who is so influential in HS quiz bowl weigh in with an opinion does, in my opinion, add to the discussion.
leftsaidfred
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 7:07 pm Post subject:
jbarnes112358 wrote:
I considered the reasons behind Mr. Barry's original statement to be more or less self-evident. And while there is nothing wrong with asking for a fuller explanation, I can see how the aggressively argumentative tone of I.C.'s [sic] query might elicit a little "yelling" in response.


Agree to disagree, I suppose. I fail to see how the post was self-evident. I also don't find Michael's tone argumentative or aggressive. It's a minor issue, however, and one that really does not necessitate continued discussion.

To continue the necessary conversation, I would advise at least one person on a team to keep score, particularly if the coach is not available (as swwFCqb smartly points out). It all boils down to if the player feels comfortable keeping track of such a thing.
I don't think it's unreasonable to ask someone to explain their position. As for aggressiveness, I'm not really sure where you're seeing that. It seems like he only capitalized "not" because Barry did. One of the most annoying things on this board is the people who make one sentence posts along the lines of "yeah, that sucks!" when everyone else is discussing a topic.

As for the automatic reverence to Mr. Barry, I'd think that such would make us want to hear his reasoning all the more, rather than just a vote. There's a reason why discussion threads aren't simply poles.

Aslo, I can certainly concieve of arguments for not keeping score that extend beyond distraction. For example, if you have a player who changes his/her style of play depending on the score, you might not want them trying to speed up or slow down their game. That's kind of a variation on distraction, but I think it's distinct reasoning. Regardless, the point is really that Sorice (a moderator) was asking someone to explain their point, which is what a moderator is supposed to do.

There's clearly only one way to settle this. Each of you must go to West Virginia and capture and train a squirrel to represent you in mortal combat. Last squirrel standing wins.

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 9:42 pm
by jbarnes112358
DumbJaques wrote: There's a reason why discussion threads aren't simply poles.
I see your point. But, is it really necessary to insult the good people of Poland?

And isn't squirrel fighting illegal in WV?

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:12 pm
by DumbJaques
DumbJaques wrote:
There's a reason why discussion threads aren't simply poles.



I see your point. But, is it really necessary to insult the good people of Poland?

And isn't squirrel fighting illegal in WV?
Maybe. But it's not illegal in Polland.

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 11:07 pm
by AKKOLADE
jbarnes112358 wrote:And isn't squirrel fighting illegal in WV?
Actually, I doubt it is verboten. Might not be legal, but I doubt it's illegal.

Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 8:10 pm
by jrbarry
Sorry my post caused a minor stir. I use CAPS for words I want to emphasize. (My internet understanding is that a string of words capitalized would be yelling, but one word capitalized is simply for emphasis.)

I used prefer because a preference need not have a rational explanation for it, imho.

As for short posts, I have chronic carpal tunnel syndrome and too much typing irritates it. That is why I often weigh-in with short posts on topics that could be expanded.

Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 4:13 pm
by jbarnes112358
jrbarry wrote:Sorry my post caused a minor stir.
The fault is all mine. I now concede that my interpretation of I.D.'s tone was a misinterpretation. His post was pithy, but not aggressively argumentative as I had characterized it. Apparently I am the only one who had the reaction I did. I apologize and I am sorry I even brought it up to begin with.

Keeping Score in Game

Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 11:58 am
by detroitdevil
What I've done for the past two years--since Freshman year is continuously add the current point total of both teams, and cross out the previous score. However, as I do this, I usually find myself off by a few points here and there, probably because I get a little absent minded as the game progresses. However the point of this is not to be exact, its just to get a rough idea out the "four on the floor." Usually, we have a coach who takes question-by-questoin exact scoring to confirm with the moderator. Additionally, we created a paper that I call scrap.doc, which has a premade scoring table, and room to do those pesky math questions. All in all, I find my method to benefit the team, something I suggest anyone do.