People should go to MO tournaments

Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) · Mon Aug 07, 2006 4:12 pm

For teams that are competitive there are a couple of tournaments in Missouri that you should seriously consider attending because they are all very well run and they draw some of the best competition in the region. Those tournaments are:
Washington University (usually in January)
North Kansas City HS (in January)
and Savannah HS (usually around March)
While you may look at this and think "oh, what can Missouri be good at" but honestly we have some of the best scholar bowl teams in the country. Unfortunately no one realizes that because hardly any of them travel and no good MO team went to nationals (Savannah got screwed by ASCN, but Ladue, Westminster Christian, and Liberty could have all been serious contenders this year if they'd actually gone), but they are there, and if you were to attend these tournaments I do not believe you would be disappointed.

David Riley · Post by **David Riley** » Tue Aug 08, 2006 3:32 am

Infortunately, Wash U conflicts with a long standing tournament for us; and N. Kansas City s a little too far for us to travel. Where is Savannah? Send me the details, though, and I'll try to get them into our quarterly newsletter for the benefit of our western Illinois tams. You guys should come to Illinois' tournaments, too (although is it correct that you guys aren't allowed to travel?)

Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) · Tue Aug 08, 2006 3:48 am

Well, as far as Savannah goes, it's probably out of your range too (it's about 50 minutes north of NKC). And the traveling rule is partially correct. We can travel 250 "air miles" out of the state, but that's it. And there are a bunch of other dumb rules that do their best to forbid us from attending nationals (we can't technically qualify using any tournament other than the Missouri state championship, although NAQT is usually sympathetic and willing to work something out with the wildcard system. On top of that we're forbidden to compete in any tournaments other than state from the moment districts start in early April until the moment your school lets out for the end of the year. So if you have a few snowdays and you go a few days into June or something, you're kinda screwed for NAQT.)
I honestly think Coach Allen is considering taking us to Illinois for a tournament or two. Also if Wash U isn't an option the UM-Rolla usually puts on a couple good tournaments every year, and that is a lot closer than Kansas City. I could get you info for those if you wanted.[/i][/u]

First Chairman · Post by **First Chairman** » Tue Aug 08, 2006 8:53 am

The other thing I have to ask about tournaments in Missouri other than the WashU competition: I had been under an impression that TD's at those events really didn't want out-of-state teams attending. I don't know whether this is accurate in the present day or has ever been accurate, but it is a question I pose.

The other thing is that Missouri teams very seldom compete out of state to establish relationships with other teams that may want to reciprocate. I was under the impression the MHSAA does not allow teams to do that in almost the same way the KHSAA (for Kansas) and IHSA (for Illinois) has a ban on travel.

Of course the question is whether Missouri teams want to travel. Again NAQT and PACE nationals are out there as are many good comps at Northside AR and a couple maybe in Memphis.

Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) · Tue Aug 08, 2006 11:37 am

I know at our tournament (NKC) last year we had 2 teams from Oklahoma, and in past years there have been teams from all over. At Savannah the second place team this year was from Ft. Smith, Arkansas, and they usually get teams from all over (I actually think they've had a team from Georgia once). I know some other tournaments in MO forbid out-of-state, but the best competitions don't. And also there are only a few coaches in Missouri right now who actually will travel. The Savannah team travels to good tournaments (I think they won Northside in 2005), and the NKC coach would travel all over (Nashville, Oklahoma, Northside, NAQT and PACE) but his team stopped being competitive in 1999, so he hasn't traveled much recently. Other than that, the decent MO teams hardly travel. As I said before there were a few that really should have gone to nationals, but an example I read on the Missouri qb board is that Westminster Christian got invited by PACE for getting fourth at WashU and they all just didn't really care, so they decided not to go. (Although a problem with MO teams competing at WashU is that they aren't supposed to be able to qualify for nationals there.)

While we always complain about MSHSAA's rules because they are backward, at least we're lucky we don't live in Kansas. Kansas 100% absolutely FORBIDS a team to travel out of state. It doesn't matter if it's Nationals or not. I know there was a Kansas team at NAQT this year but they were quite blatantly breaking the rules. I'm not sure about the IL traveling rules.

Strongside · Post by **Strongside** » Tue Aug 08, 2006 3:28 pm

Out of curiousity why do some states like the aformentioned Illinois, Missouri, and Kansas have such strict rules on going to quiz bowl meets? I live in Minnesota and we don't have any statewide restrictions on traveling to quiz bowl meets and attending nationals.

Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) · Tue Aug 08, 2006 3:34 pm

In Missouri the reason we're given is that they can't make exceptions for any activity, so we're under the same restrictions as sports (we also can only play games 14 days a year). It's a stupid reason because we are not a sport, but whatever. I personally think that it's because the activities governing body MSHSAA likes attention.

Captain Sinico · Post by **Captain Sinico** » Tue Aug 08, 2006 4:01 pm

charlieDfromNKC wrote:In Missouri the reason we're given is that they can't make exceptions for any activity, so we're under the same restrictions as sports (we also can only play games 14 days a year). It's a stupid reason because we are not a sport, but whatever. I personally think that it's because the activities governing body MSHSAA likes attention.

Illinois doesn't, in fact, have a travel ban, but there are some other undue strictures for similar reasons.

MaS

Trevkeeper · Post by **Trevkeeper** » Tue Aug 08, 2006 6:39 pm

WashU's tournament is very good.

If any out of state teams are looking for an Illinois tournament to attend, perhaps you should look into U of I's Earlybird tournament, which will be on October 7th.

Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) · Tue Aug 08, 2006 9:46 pm

Missouri forbids teams from playing before October 21, so none of us could go to that tournament

STPickrell · Post by **STPickrell** » Thu Aug 10, 2006 4:10 pm

bjb87 wrote:Out of curiousity why do some states like the aformentioned Illinois, Missouri, and Kansas have such strict rules on going to quiz bowl meets? I live in Minnesota and we don't have any statewide restrictions on traveling to quiz bowl meets and attending nationals.

In Virginia quizbowl is a "sponsored activity" and there are no travel restrictions. Nothing got broken.

There are also no travel restrictions for sports, basketball and wrestling teams will frequently go to sunny type locations for holiday tournaments, and baseball/softball make spring break trips. Of course the teams must do fundraising for these trips.

The VHSL has one set of rules for sports and another for academic activities. We have a separate director who oversees the academic activities, too, and our current chairman was once the academic activities guy.

Awehrman · Post by **Awehrman** » Thu Aug 10, 2006 8:07 pm

Hey, Charlie,
I'm glad to see you being so active on the boards. I hope this means that You'll put NKC back into some national competition. What you say is true about MSHSAA, but 250 miles outside of Missouri's border gives you a pretty good range since MO is so central. Chicago within range if you measure from Missouri's northeast corner. The ASCN tournament was always forbidden for us since it took place before our school got out for the summer, but we did attend NAQT nationals once and PACE twice as well as some QU tournaments. Missouri has lots of talent as evidenced by its success at Panasonic over the last few years, but the individual schools need to do more to challenge MSHSAA. It has been placing limits on some of Missouri's smartest kids for 10 years now.

Good luck this year!

Andy Wehrman
NKC Class o' '99

Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) · Thu Aug 10, 2006 8:38 pm

Nice to meet you Andy (in a way) after hearing everything about you Wehrman kids from Mr. Allen. Update on your alma mater: I do think that this year we'll finally be good enough to go to nationals. I'm a junior this year and it's unfortunate to say that last year I was close to being a one man team, even though we did win some tournaments (finally). I think all of our results are on moaca.org somewhere. We're probably travelling a lot more this year, and I think we've got a serious shot at state again. Speaking of traveling, are you still involved in the Northwestern NAQT hs tourney, because I want to let Mr. Allen know about that. My email is charlie16 at gmail.com
I totally agree with you about how Panasonic does show that Missouri has some great teams. I was on team MO this year with David Hofflemeyer from Savannah and Andrew Hoekzema from Westminster Christian in St. Louis (our All-America team member) and either one could have been in a really close running for not only best player in the country but also National Champs but they couldn't/wouldn't go. Instead Missouri sent the "Jeff City Wizards" from Helias (some Catholic school) that we played in the finals at Rolla against, and considering it was the finals, we slaughtered them, which means the better teams in the state could have probably zeroed them in a match. If I remember correctly, they only won 2 games at NAQT.

mentalchocolate · Post by **mentalchocolate** » Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:45 pm

Central Hardin HS (KY) will hold an NAQT tournament on October 21 (the first day Missouri teams are elgible for competition) and it is 185 "air miles" from the Missouri border. Any tournaments at Louisville open to out of state teams are within range also. Lexington is quite close to that 250 mile radius, but I am not sure how strictly these regulations are imposed by the MSHSAA. Hopefully I will see Missouri teams travelling out of state this year.

Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) · Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:08 pm

Mentalchocolate, thank you for the invite. While I doubt any MO teams could go to your tournament (we already have two in state that day) I would be interested in going to a good Kentucky tournament (i.e. no quick recall nonsense) so if you could keep me posted on them I would love to come, and I'd post them on the Missouri Quizbowl forum so other teams can know. Actually, if anyone has a tournament that is in range for MO, I could post it there for you to let other people know.
And I don't know how strict MSHSAA is about traveling because no one has really pushed with them before.

dtaylor4 · Post by **dtaylor4** » Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:49 pm

To go along with tournament plugs, I too don't know the Missouri schedule, but the U of I will be hosting a singles tournament January 27th. 20 TU, no bonuses, but good pyramidal questions, and I guarantee plenty of games for everyone.

Trevkeeper · Post by **Trevkeeper** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 2:37 am

New Trier High School in Winnetka, Illinois (it's only about 10 minutes from Northwestern, to give you an idea) is hosting tournaments on November 11 and December 16th. November 11th is a singles tournament and December 16th is a traditional team tournament. As Co-TD of the tournament in December, I can say for certain we'd love to welcome out-of-state teams to our tournament, and we'll help you as much as we can in terms of travel arrangements.

Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) · Wed Aug 16, 2006 4:04 am

I've posted some of your tournaments on the Missouri forum, but please keep me updated. Also, http://www.moaca.org/tournaments/ has a growing, incomplete tournament schedule for Missouri. None of my top 3 tournaments are listed yet, but I would recommend UM-Rolla's tournament because they write really good questions, plus it's not too far away for Kentucky/Illinois. The only issue with UMR is that it usually draws a ton of blah teams and then 1 or 2 good/great teams that whip everyone else.
As for my recommendations:
NKC I would think is holding the tournament on the third weekend of January. The format is a little bit different (1st quarter=15 tossups, 2nd quarter=Give and take*, 3rd quarter=team worksheet, and 4th quarter=extra value complex team questions), but it's still hands down one of the best tournaments out there. I'm not being biased when I say it is well worth any travel.
Savannah is ditto in terms of great questions and being very well run. Their format is a little more standard (1st quarter=10pt. tossups, 2nd quarter=lightning rounds, 3rd quarter=5 tossups w/ unrelated bonuses, 4th quarter=double value tossups) but good questions are good questions no matter how they come. My only complaint is that Savannah has a small and large school division, so you never get to play half of the teams.
Wash U is more centralized (and publicized) so I don't think you all need to hear more.

*Give and take here is where teams get four choices of topics, picks one and gives one to the other team, and then whoever's behind picks the third topic and gives the fourth to the other team.

David Riley · Post by **David Riley** » Wed Aug 16, 2006 10:00 am

Isn't the third week of January the Wash U tournament?

Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) · Wed Aug 16, 2006 11:26 am

No, Wash U was on January 28th

Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) · Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:57 pm

About the New Trier Singles:
Is that date set, because normally I would love to go, but we're maybe considering Vandy, which is on the same day. I will keep in touch about your regular team tournament. How hard is the math, because I hear about how you get 30 second calculations, so you do higher level stuff in Illinois. In Missouri, we don't get that much time so we aren't exposed to much ultra-hard math. And is the tournament with 5-player teams?

Stained Diviner · Post by **Stained Diviner** » Wed Aug 16, 2006 2:15 pm

The date is set for Scobol Solo. There are three computational questions out of twenty total in each round.

The New Trier Varsity has five players per team.

If you want to see what the level of the Math is, check out last year's questions on our website.

David Riley · Post by **David Riley** » Wed Aug 16, 2006 2:31 pm

Charlie (et. al?)

Just an fyi--

Illinois tournaments are pretty much set a year or so in advance. We begin working on our calendar for the next year at the end of the previous year's season and are usually finished by mid-May; excepting some tournaments hosted by colleges and universities.

Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) · Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:27 pm

Whoa... set a year in advance. In Missouri, most tournaments aren't officially announced until 2 months before they take place. You Illinois ferners must be ultra-organized.

And I'm just Charlie. No et al on this screenname. Although I'll try to get more MO people on here once the year starts

Trevkeeper · Post by **Trevkeeper** » Wed Aug 16, 2006 6:06 pm

Here are the questions that were used at last year's New Trier team tournament (which, as Mr. Reinstein said, is 5 players per team) so you can judge the math (I'm about as non-math guy as you can get, so I never know how difficult the math is).

jonpin · Post by **jonpin** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:37 pm

David Riley wrote:Isn't the third week of January the Wash U tournament?

Wash U plans to hold this year's WUHSAC on February 3, so that we have a little more prep time upon returning from winter break.

Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) · Tue Sep 05, 2006 1:00 pm

About wash u's tournament.
Why do you have to make it a PACE qualifier? Technically, since it qualifies, any Missouri team is banned from playing in. I know it is in MO and most teams are from MO, but if someone were to report it to MSHSAA, all of those teams will be disqualified at districts.

AKKOLADE · Post by **AKKOLADE** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 1:13 pm

charlieDfromNKC wrote:About wash u's tournament.
Why do you have to make it a PACE qualifier? Technically, since it qualifies, any Missouri team is banned from playing in. I know it is in MO and most teams are from MO, but if someone were to report it to MSHSAA, all of those teams will be disqualified at districts.

This is the most idiotic rule I have ever heard.

Edit: To expand - all tournaments using NAQT questions automatically qualify teams for the NAQT HSNCT. Are NAQT questions banned in Missouri? If a team attends a tournament that uses NAQT questions, would that team be banned from Missouri competition?

Also, what is the actual text of this rule?

Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) · Tue Sep 05, 2006 3:31 pm

Actually, there have been a few NAQT tournaments in Missouri, but they specifically set them up as "non-qualifying". There is reference to the rule somewhere on the NAQT page, and you could email them to find out more specifics. All I know is that qualifiers are banned by MSHSAA. Except for winning state. And by the time they hold state, it's too late to register.
Plus, not many teams are worth competing at nationals, and the teams that are worth competing rarely go.

jonpin · Post by **jonpin** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 12:09 am

To my knowledge, and I may be mistaken on this :

WUHSAC is not officially affiliated with PACE, because if it was, no Missouri team would be allowed to compete, etc.

NAQT started providing questions for tournaments in the state of Missouri last year with an exception to the "NAQT questions serve as qualifiers" rule. Teams that win NAQT-question tournaments in Missouri do not receive automatic bids to NAQT HSNCT, again, so that Missouri teams are allowed to compete.

Interpret the above, include the words in bold, as you wish.

Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) · Thu Sep 07, 2006 4:03 pm

Thank goodness. I've talked to lots of people that have participated in the tournament or else observed it and they all talked about it qualifying for PACE, and I was freaking out because we want to (maybe) go, and our coach wouldn't if it was a qualifier. I know for the past couple of years the powerhouse Savannah didn't go solely because they were sure it is a qualifier.

johnboy81918 · Post by **johnboy81918** » Sun Nov 05, 2006 2:24 pm

Charles, are you guys planning on going down to Wash U then?

Also, the tournaments on Jan 27 are the same day as the regional Science Bowl, so we won't be able to attend anything else :( Well, we could, but that would mean not going to National Science Bowl if we can manage to win regionals...

Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) · Thu Nov 23, 2006 10:03 pm

Yet again I shall draw attention to this thread. Wash U, February 3rd. Be there!