Illinois 06-07

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Matt Bardoe
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Predictions

Post by Matt Bardoe »

I won't participate in public predictions, but I will say that with the knowledge found by reading this board, looking at tournament central at ihssbca.org, and some knowledge of the past years of scholastic bowl I picked 22 of 32 regionals in class AA and 18 of 32 regionals in Class A (I will do better next year when I pay more attention to tournaments and less to seeding).

Speaking of that here is a list of possible scholastic bowl Cinderellas who will play on Saturday. Will they be the ones to bust your bracket?

In class AA
Cary (C-Grove) a 10 seed in the Auburn Sectional
Dekalb an 11 seed in the Auburn Sectional
Charleston a 10 seed in the Carbondale Sectional


In Class A

Sidell (Jamaica) (Coop) a 19 seed in the Riverton Sectional
Orion a 7 seed in the Port Byron (Riverdale) Sectional
Metropolis (Massac County) an 8 seed in the Harrisburg Sectional


I think Sidell (Jamaica) (Coop) is the most interesting of these. Does anyone know more about this team, and why they are constantly seeded poorly (they were a low seed last year). I think that this is their second regional in a row. They are in one of the toughest sectionals with Decatur Lutheran and Williamsville.

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Post by Deviant Insider »

I agree that these questions were a significant improvement. Also, people should be aware that technology is now a subcategory in two different categories. Within the math category, there is programming and scripting. Within the miscellaneous category, you get iPod questions and the like. Since these questions use up one of the two miscellaneous questions of a match, I don't have a problem with them.

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Post by Sen. Estes Kefauver (D-TN) »

I appreciate a well written trash question. I think they're fine, as long as there aren't enough of them that they could really make a difference in the game.
Charlie Dees, North Kansas City HS '08
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Re: Predictions

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Matt Bardoe wrote:I won't participate in public predictions, but I will say that with the knowledge found by reading this board, looking at tournament central at ihssbca.org, and some knowledge of the past years of scholastic bowl I picked 22 of 32 regionals in class AA and 18 of 32 regionals in Class A (I will do better next year when I pay more attention to tournaments and less to seeding).

Speaking of that here is a list of possible scholastic bowl Cinderellas who will play on Saturday. Will they be the ones to bust your bracket?

In class AA
Cary (C-Grove) a 10 seed in the Auburn Sectional
Dekalb an 11 seed in the Auburn Sectional
Charleston a 10 seed in the Carbondale Sectional


In Class A

Sidell (Jamaica) (Coop) a 19 seed in the Riverton Sectional
Orion a 7 seed in the Port Byron (Riverdale) Sectional
Metropolis (Massac County) an 8 seed in the Harrisburg Sectional


I think Sidell (Jamaica) (Coop) is the most interesting of these. Does anyone know more about this team, and why they are constantly seeded poorly (they were a low seed last year). I think that this is their second regional in a row. They are in one of the toughest sectionals with Decatur Lutheran and Williamsville.
I don't see Sidell or Charleston making a serious run. Decatur Lutheran is a good team and can hang with some of the good AA teams around here.

Charleston? Somehow upsetting last year's runner-up? In Carbondale? This would be a bigger upset than if someone can upset Latin.

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Post by cornfused »

Prediction #1: The name of the winning school in the New Trier Sectional will end in a consonant: possibly R, H, S, or K, but probably not L.

Prediction #2: The New Trier Sectional will not be won by Carbondale, Rockford Boylan, or Maggie Walker.

Past that, I got nothing, except maybe "a maximum of one match with a 3-digit margin of victory." Eeets gonna be cloooose....

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Post by dtaylor4 »

Here go my picks:

B-B: Decatur MacArthur. They don't play much, but they are good on pyramidals.

Carbondale: Carbondale. Justin makes a third long-ass trip to Peoria.

Marist: Marist. I haven't seen or heard much, but I think home classroom advantage carries them.

Libertyville: Stevenson. They get their revenge on Hersey for knocking them out in their first game last year.

Normal West: Bloomington. Springfield beat a Kristina-less Bloomington, but if Bloomington runs their main five, it's done.

Auburn: Auburn. It's automatic. Auburn goes to State. Period.

Wheaton-Warrenville South: Wheaton North. See Auburn.

New Trier: New Trier. The Trevians exact revenge for the comeback in Springfield the week before.

I admit that I have not seen all of the teams playing Saturday. Feel free to nitpick or do whatever.

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Post by leapfrog314 »

I agree the questions were a big improvement. There were a few really bizarre and bad questions that really stuck out, though. I know that they were the minority, but inconsistent packets can be just as bad as consistently bad packets.

(What do you call a half-plane with an open boundary?
Answer: Open half-plane.)

OK guys, dunno about you, but it bugs me when random non-programming, non-scripting, computer-related questions are put under Math: Programming and Scripting. FAT is not a programming question, and neither was MBR at State last year. Those are no more about programming than "Hard Drive" is. And yes, it bugs me even more when there's a technology bonus on lonelygirl15. Oh well, I never hold great hope for technology questions.

I won't enter the Sectional prognostication, but I'll say that some of the Sectionals will be a lot more random than others. No matter what happens, there will be a lot of competition at State for whoever makes it.

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Post by Captain Sinico »

BarringtonJP wrote:Why can't an occasional question about something not in the scholastic bowl canon be asked without it being ripped on?
I guess because people tend to not like those questions for a whole variety of reasons. Incidentally, pasta shapes and drivers ed are firmly ensconced in the Scholastic Bowl cannon; it's just that a lot of people think they shouldn't be (see previous sentence.)

MaS

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Post by Captain Sinico »

charlieDfromNKC wrote:I appreciate a well written trash question. I think they're fine, as long as there aren't enough of them that they could really make a difference in the game.
That's sort-of a vacuous statement, though, because any game with a one-question margin of victory (as frequently occur) was decided by the outcome of every question asked. Now that's not an argument against trash, but rather one for packets in which every question is well-written and on something significant (including the trash, if it's in the distribution.)

MaS

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Post by Tegan »

BarringtonJP wrote:Why can't an occasional question about something not in the scholastic bowl canon be asked without it being ripped on?
[/quote]

I think it depends on what you consider adding to the canon. I think more and more there is as push to put all of the miscellaney (sports, pop culture, home ec, drivers ed) into a bubble so that it has as little effect on teh outcome as possible. So, anyone wanting to expand this into non-scholarly fields is swimming more and more agasint a current.

The "interdisciplinary" (a David Reinstein joint) was introduced to check the miscellaney by making for a category that was still primarily scholarly, but could include some pop culture clues. I think this was a trememndous boon, and I wish the state writers used it more often.

Expanding scholarly fields into more scholarly areas is soemthing that, in Illinois, we need to do more of.

As for people ripping each other .... that shouldn't be going on. You kill more flies with poisoned honey than poisoned vinegar.

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Post by Matt Weiner »

This discussion, to me, reinforces the age-old truism that what is really irksome to serious players is not an appropriate amount of clearly defined "trash" in the distribution, but rather the creep of trash and trivia into the other sections. When it's made clear by the rules that 1 question per round will be on television or sports, then there is no grounds for complaint, but when the tournament advertises computer science and foreign language, and gives Youtube and pasta shapes, that's a problem. The same problem exists when questions on Bambi fill up the literature distribution or flashcard memorization clues like birthdates abound in history.

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Post by mlaird »

leapfrog314 wrote:OK guys, dunno about you, but it bugs me when random non-programming, non-scripting, computer-related questions are put under Math: Programming and Scripting. FAT is not a programming question, and neither was MBR at State last year. Those are no more about programming than "Hard Drive" is. And yes, it bugs me even more when there's a technology bonus on lonelygirl15. Oh well, I never hold great hope for technology questions.
I made sure that that "Programming and Scripting" question was not asked in our regional and was replaced with real Math question. My argument was that in leaving the "FAT" question in, we would essentially be including another Misc. question and one less Math question.

It would really be nice if all the people who are proofreading questions got together with their corrections, as I hear they used to do a few years back. This would really insure uniformity of questions state-wide, not to mention provide corrections to the regionals and sectionals where the moderators don't care enough to look over the questions, or don't know enough to look over them properly.

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Post by Tegan »

Matt Weiner wrote:but when the tournament advertises computer science and foreign language, and gives Youtube and pasta shapes, that's a problem. The same problem exists when questions on Bambi fill up the literature distribution or flashcard memorization clues like birthdates abound in history.
Rarely would I say it, but this is where the rest of the country could take a lesson from Illinois. The interdisciplinary subcategory of "Miscellaneous" was supposed to throw a constraint on, as Matt puts it, the pop culture creeeping into the academic questions. If only our writers followed the rules more carefully.
mlaird wrote:I made sure that that "Programming and Scripting" question was not asked in our regional and was replaced with real Math question. My argument was that in leaving the "FAT" question in, we would essentially be including another Misc. question and one less Math question.
Sadly, this is the advantage of having knowledgable and (I'll use the word) caring moderators who do the job RIGHT! I bet of the 64 Regionals in Illinois, we were one of no more than two or three who bothered to check the questions to see if the writers followed the rules.

And some would say this is bad because it disrupted uniformity .... yeesh!

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Post by Tegan »

Matt Weiner wrote:avatar
Mr. Weiner,

As a duely deputized member of an Advisory Committee of the Illinois High School Association, I must inform you that use of "March Madness" in your avatar constitutes a legal misuse of a patentned, copywrighted, and trademarked idea which is the intellectual property of the Illinois High School Asociation. Failure to cease and desist use of this will constitute grounds for a lawsuit for damages, civil and compensatory, in an approximate six figure range. Cease and desist its use, or return forthwith tho the nearest parallel dimension.

That ought to do it Ray, good work.
:wink:

edit: stupid grammar ans spelling .....
Last edited by Tegan on Thu Mar 08, 2007 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by the return of AHAN »

Yes, it's March Mayhem now, doncha know?

BTW, Tegan, are you available for IESA State Series regionals (4/25) & sectionals (4/30) again this year? I know you'll want to rip up the sets and rewrite them... but I'll let you give a pre-tourney disclaimer whereby you disavow having taken a part of the question writing process. And, of course, we still pay a handsome sum for each match (meaning Ben Franklin and U.S. Grant are ugly dudes).
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Post by Tegan »

BarringtonJP wrote:Yes, it's March Mayhem now, doncha know?

BTW, Tegan, are you available for IESA State Series regionals (4/25) & sectionals (4/30) again this year? I know you'll want to rip up the sets and rewrite them... but I'll let you give a pre-tourney disclaimer whereby you disavow having taken a part of the question writing process. And, of course, we still pay a handsome sum for each match (meaning Ben Franklin and U.S. Grant are ugly dudes).
I think that would be OK ..... I need to double check the dates .... 4/25 seems important for some reason.

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Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh »

Best of luck to all participants at Sectionals! May your knowledge of pasta shapes be justified once and for all. :chip:

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Post by rjaguar3 »

Results so far:

The following teams have punched their tickets to Peoria.

Joliet
Carbondale
Libertyville
Auburn
Wheaton North
New Trier

Congratulations to all the winners so far!

EDIT: Hinsdale Central is also in now.

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Post by mlaird »

rjaguar3 wrote:Results so far:
Here are the results from Sectionals:

Advancing from Class A:
Beardstown (163.3 PPG + 117 PAPG =280.3 Avg. Pts scored per game)
Latin (308.3 PPG + 118.3 PAPG = 426.6 Avg)
PORTA (262 PPG + 110.6 PAPG = 372.6 Avg)
Columbia (231.3 PPG + 107.3 PAPG = 338.6 Avg)
Fairfield (210.6 PPG + 110.3 PAPG = 320.9 Avg)
Macomb (309 PPG + 128.3 PAPG = 437.3 Avg)
Decatur Lutheran (310.3 PPG + 176.6 PAPG = 486.9 Avg)
Morrison (257 PPG + 163 PAPG =326 Avg)

Class AA:
Joliet (245.3 PPG + 168 PAPG = 413.3 Avg. Pts scored per game)
Carbondale (371 PPG + 152.3 PAPG = 523.3 Avg)
Libertyville [2-1] (318 PPG + 198.6 PAPG = 516.6 Avg)
Auburn (438.6 PPG + 115 PAPG = 553.6 Avg)
Wheaton North (391.6 PPG + 249.3 PAPG = 640.9 Avg)
New Trier (346 PPG + 261.3 PAPG = 607.3 Avg)
Hinsdale Central [2-1] (260.6 PPG + 246.3 PAPG = 506.9 Avg)
Bloomington (377 PPG + 204.3 PAPG = 581.3 Avg)

Please note that you don't know exactly what happened in every match, and that starters were likely pulled in many matches that had already reached singularity. However, this is the best data we have, so take it with a grain of salt.
Last edited by mlaird on Sun Mar 11, 2007 4:15 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Post by Jax »

i dont know if this skews the data at all, but our last game against stevenson was mostly reserves vs reserves since the sectional was decided after 2 rounds.

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Post by mlaird »

Jax wrote:i dont know if this skews the data at all, but our last game against stevenson was mostly reserves vs reserves since the sectional was decided after 2 rounds.
I figured this would be the case in a few places, but we don't have any other data to go off of, so this take all my stats with a grain of salt.

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Post by Trevkeeper »

So what would everyone consider the "surprises" of sectionals?

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Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh »

Trevkeeper wrote:So what would everyone consider the "surprises" of sectionals?
The belly dancer tossup, without a doubt.

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Post by Trevkeeper »

I meant more in terms of teams, but hey, questions count.

Yeah, I was thinking that, but I was wondering if there was some more correct name than "Belly Dance."

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Post by OP_Huskies »

class AA is pretty much as I would have called it, with the exception of Hinsdale Central. They weren't even one of the top teams in our conference. In fact, they lost in the first round of our conference playoffs, to Leyden (who bowed out in the first round of regionals).

Looks like Hinsdale Central picked the right day to turn it on though.

JB

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Suprises

Post by Matt Bardoe »

My surprises in no particular order:

* I thought the New Trier Sectional might have some closer matches.
* Carmel's win over Stevenson. Carmel has a great pair of coaches, and a great program overall. They are a team to watch in the future. Soon the Palatine/Lincolnshire Sectional could be as big a bloodbath as New Trier, with such teams as Libertyville, Fremd, Stevenson, Carmel, Hersey, Hoffman Estates, etc...
* I was surprised about Joliet (Twp.) but I don't know much about the schools down there. Lincoln Way East played well at Homewood-Flossmoor.
* Sidell (Jamaica) (Coop) played their sectional tough, but didn't have quite enough against Decatur (Lutheran). It was closer than you might have thought for a 19 seed.
* I had heard good things about Litchfield, but they didn't make past Beardstown.


Things that aren't surprises:

Auburn
Wheaton North
Carbondale
Bloomington

All repeat from last year.

Questions were good, but "belly dancing" or for that matter any question with the word "erotic" in it is a surprise.

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Post by JohnAndSlation »

Surprisingly enough, I was almost going to take it on the Arabic. I waited, and Jeff took it, which was more than worth the wait.

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Post by Tegan »

Hats off to New Trier ...... class act every one of 'em! They are a deserving champion.

The questions held up very nicely ....... while, like Regionals there were a couple of leftfield topics, the structure of the questions was really pretty good.

BTW ...... I don't have my scorebook in front of me, but without exaggeration, Maine South and Fenwick (final round today) swept a dozen bonuses. If you include parts rebounded, this number goes up to maybe 18. I had never seeni it in my life. At one point, the two teams had a run of maybe 8 consecutive sweeps.

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Post by David Riley »

Yes, the only thing I've seen that even comes close was a semifinal match between Rock Island and Lake Zurich fr/so (1999?) where only 60 points were unanswered between both teams out of a possible 600 points.

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Post by Deviant Insider »

FYI:
R1 BHS vs Dunlap 406-184
R2 BHS vs Springfield 355-169
R3 BHS vs Moline 370-260
In other words, Bloomington is in.

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Re: Suprises

Post by friarup »

Matt Bardoe wrote:My surprises in no particular order:

* I thought the New Trier Sectional might have some closer matches.
Don't be fooled by the scores. All the matches we were in could have gone either way. It was a tossup here or there. The matches were very close. It just hurt us a lot in the New Trier match that we didn't get a lot of the bonuses after getting tossups.

I will second Coach Egan's comment about the amount of sweeps in our match. It was amazing...I just wish that match meant something for us at that point.
2007 Fenwick Girls' Basketball Class AA State Champions...Eat it with a fork Bolingbrook!

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Post by mlaird »

Well, state tournament brackets have been posted to http://www.ihsa.org/activity/scb/index.htm

What does everyone think?

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Post by the return of AHAN »

Class A: Latin over Columbia (Columbia surprises the upstate folks, but I have reason to believe they're on the rise)
3rd place: Decatur Lutheran over Petersburg PORTA

Class AA: Auburn over New Trier (Auburn learns from last year's disappointment)
3rd place: Bloomington over Libertyville
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Post by Deviant Insider »

To second the notion that the New Trier Sectional was close, we were beating Fenwick by 39 with three questions left, and we were losing to Saint Ignatius at halftime. We got a big lead against Maine South, but we also got a big lead against them at the Masonic State Final, and everybody knows how that one turned out. On tossups, we beat Fenwick 13-12 and lost to Saint Ignatius 11-12.

The last round did have a lot of sweepable bonuses. In our match with Saint Ignatius, veins, complex numbers, slavery, Kepler, journalists, oxidation, domain/range, agricultural inventions, drugs/alcohol, and critical points got swept, colligative properties got a rebound sweep, and java access, Rodin sculptures, and glands got combined sweeps. Musicals, amendments, and quadratics were sweepable, though it didn't happen in our match. Seven bonuses were never heard.

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Post by potato0328 »

I don't know very much about Class A, so I won't embarrass myself by predicting anything.

Class AA
NT over Bloomington
I think these are the two most balanced teams in the field. It seems to me that whichever finalist comes from the tougher pool has had an advantage in the past, as that team must already be playing at the top of its game. However, I think NT is prepared enough and well-coached enough to get itself going in the final.
3rd place: Auburn over Libertyville.
directly from Fremd High School...

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Post by Tegan »

mlaird wrote:Well, state tournament brackets have been posted
What does everyone think?
1. Perhaps in the history of recorded human competitive endeavours, never have two teams (New Trier and Libertyville) been handed virtual byes without in fact being handed byes to the final four. I sat down and figured it out: I think any one of the top six teams in our subsectional, had they won the sectional, would have walked to the final four with this configuration. I'm not sure what to be more mad about: the fact that the inequity exists, or that its not my team getting the chance to take advantage of this.

2. Carbondale, Wheaton North, Auburn, and Bloomington got rooked, shived, hosed, and screwed over all at the same time .....If any one of these teams comes out and wins the whole thing, they have truly run the gauntlet.

Two of the best eight teams in state will not even finish in the top four.

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Post by the return of AHAN »

Tegan,
I wish you'd quit being so milquetoast and tell us how you REALLY feel! Will you feel better if Joliet and/or Hinsdale Central gets a trophy? Or worse? Better still, can I get some kind of odds on either of these two getting a trophy?

Let's really make it interesting and set up some Vegas lines on each AA match!
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Post by Deviant Insider »

I will be on WGN AM 720 tomorrow from about 10:40-11:00 AM asking Scholastic Bowl questions.
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Post by MJG »

I too really wondered about the pools. I kept my mouth shut though, not knowing much about Hinsdale, Joliet, or even Libertyville. How exactly are the pools determined?

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Post by the return of AHAN »

IHSA determines pools and brackets for the State Finals by a blind draw, and this is true for all of their sports, too.
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Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh »

There was a time where the idea of a blind draw wasn't present in Scholastic Bowl - the IHSA hadn't changed the pools over the last few years even though it says in the rules that they do/should.

My predictions:

Class A
1st: Decatur Lutheran over Macomb
3rd: Chicago Latin over PORTA

Class AA
1st: New Trier over Bloomington
3rd: Auburn over Libertyville

ETA: Re: pool strength discrepancy. You may see Auburn/Carbondale/WN/Bloomington as the be-all end-all of stacked pools, but with one different ping-pong ball, it's fair again. Given that there have been/are/will be 6 strong teams in the Class AA finals, it's an easy probability problem to see that the odds of having a 3-3 split are actually lower than the combined probability of the 2 4-2 splits of the strong teams. I think we may have been spoiled by having the "fixed" pools of the last few years always being a 3-3 split.

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Post by Tegan »

styxman wrote:You may see Auburn/Carbondale/WN/Bloomington as the be-all end-all of stacked pools, but with one different ping-pong ball, it's fair again. Given that there have been/are/will be 6 strong teams in the Class AA finals, it's an easy probability problem to see that the odds of having a 3-3 split are actually lower than the combined probability of the 2 4-2 splits of the strong teams.
I did a study, and we haven't had fixed pools for some time. You are absolutely correct that tehre was a very non-zero chance of having this end up this way......but it still doesn't make it fair! It would take so little effort to try and seperate some of the better teams ..... and even in the absence of that, what would it take to seed state.....sure, GOOD LUCK trying to find a way to seed the six best teams that are there .... but at least allow the teams who worked the hardest and are most deserving of those eight an opportunity to have a fair shot of fighting it out!


Sadly,the IHSA is undergoing a debate on the merits of limited seperation of top teams prior to seeding ..... but this is only because (Iam sure) of the howls from basketball fans, and not out of concern for any students outside those areas. A terrible shame.

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Post by jagluski »

Tegan wrote:
Two of the best eight teams in state will not even finish in the top four.

Uhh...yes. Better yet, four of the best eight teams in state will not even finish in the top four!


Good luck to all downstate this weekend. Looking forward to seeing NT, Bloomington, and Auburn at NAQT Nationals.

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Post by mlaird »

Why can't we do a big ol' round robin with all 8 teams? then have the top two square off in the finals or top four square off in a semi-finals --> finals playoff? Granted, 9 rounds of thirty questions is pretty darn long. It would be nice to see it, though. I do think it's funny that IHSA and some conferences are the only places where you see 30 questions.

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Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh »

Tegan wrote:
styxman wrote:You may see Auburn/Carbondale/WN/Bloomington as the be-all end-all of stacked pools, but with one different ping-pong ball, it's fair again. Given that there have been/are/will be 6 strong teams in the Class AA finals, it's an easy probability problem to see that the odds of having a 3-3 split are actually lower than the combined probability of the 2 4-2 splits of the strong teams.
I did a study, and we haven't had fixed pools for some time. You are absolutely correct that tehre was a very non-zero chance of having this end up this way......but it still doesn't make it fair! It would take so little effort to try and seperate some of the better teams ..... and even in the absence of that, what would it take to seed state.....sure, GOOD LUCK trying to find a way to seed the six best teams that are there .... but at least allow the teams who worked the hardest and are most deserving of those eight an opportunity to have a fair shot of fighting it out!


Sadly,the IHSA is undergoing a debate on the merits of limited seperation of top teams prior to seeding ..... but this is only because (Iam sure) of the howls from basketball fans, and not out of concern for any students outside those areas. A terrible shame.
So let's take it out of IHSA's hands. They've been good about changing IHSA Scholastic Bowl to fit our requests and demands, but they're probably not going to change IHSA sporting rules in general to fit Scholastic Bowl's needs. It's been brought up before on the boards, but I think it needs a re-examination - there should be an IHSSBCA sponsored State Championship. In a state the size of Illinois, it's almost impossible for geography to not be an issue. I, however, think that a sectional qualifying process could quite easily allow all good teams, not just one or two from an area, a chance to go down state.
My vision is this - note that this takes two possibilities into account; the tournament will either be NAQT format or Illinois format.

Statewide tournaments are held over the course of the year that go along with the format of the state championship. IHSSBCA Kickoff is a good example; perhaps an NAQT set could be played statewide at four different sites a la Kickoff. Stats would be well documented, and we'd have some sort of formula to determine seeds at sectional qualifying tournaments.
At sectionals, participating teams would be divided up into four well defined regions of Northern, Central, Southern, and Chicago. Each sectional would then rank all their teams from top to bottom, then place them into pools of 8-12 or 14 teams for round robin sectional qualifying. All round robin pool winners (or top 2, or top 3; can be decided later) automatically advance to the state finals, and at-large bids are awarded to teams with good stats (bonus conversion, ppg, strength of schedule, and the like are all possible stats to consider) until a state final field of somewhere around 32-48 or even 64 teams is constructed. At state, 8-team round robin pools would be played, followed by afternoon playoffs in round robin format - most likely a 6 team pool for the championship bracket. In all cases, pools would be constructed by a "snake draft" that ensures that pools are evenly distributed, except for the championship bracket at State.

This format ensures that A: all strong, deserving teams will earn a trip to state, B: teams will be evenly distributed in pools both at Sectionals and State with less emphasis on geography, C: no one bad game or packet at any level of play will instantly destroy your chances of advancing, D: there is more competition to differentiate the top teams, E: there is more statistical evidence available both before, during, and after the state series, F: teams will actually have played games before the state series began to allow adequate seeding - this was a huge problem in a bunch of Class A sectionals. The 2 seed in Bago's subsectional had played 2 games all year.

There are a few complaints with this system, but I think they can be solved. First off is the Class A versus Class AA (versus Class AAA?) debate. I think that NAQT's got a good system with their small school national championship, having all schools play against each other because when an amazing Class A team comes along that can compete against the AA's, that team shouldn't be brought down to the Class A level by their school's enrollment. Perhaps, of the 48-64 teams that go down state, the Class A teams that legitimately make the field would be placed in a championship bracket of their own after the round of pool play at state. (Of course, if a Class A team qualified for the upper tier bracket they could play there.)
Secondly, the idea of playing 12 games in a day is impossible with 75 minute matches like IHSA's got. NAQT timed format would solve this problem, but even NAQT style timing on tossups and bonuses without timed halves would help bring time down to around 30 minutes per match. Teams that would be interested in playing in such a tournament would be content with playing from 9-4 or so in a sectional tournament, so I think it could work out well time wise.

How does the idea sound? It'd take a bit of work getting the questions and statistic awareness out there, but I think it could work as soon as next year.

ETA: After reading Laird's post, I should throw it out there that 30 question matches are insane. As Coach Niemeier points out every year at Regionals, the first year of IHSA state championships used 40 question matches that took nearly two hours to play one match. My proposal would most likely use 20 question matches.

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Post by leapfrog314 »

We have at least two major State Series (Masonic and IHSA) in Illinois already, and a third State Qualifier tournament (NAQT). I do not think we need another. Also, while I do prefer NAQT to Illinois format, I do not think that changing our format is a high priority by any means. Change the questions.

Also, though they're really long, I like the idea of 30-question matches when it really counts. After thirty questions, the better team is more likely to come out on top--only twenty, and a short run from the other team can create a lead that cannot be stolen back. You have a chance to regain control of the match if it's thirty questions long. Especially when we're talking state championship matches, I'm fine with thirty.

Personally, my biggest problem with IHSA is the randomness of it all: the uneven Sectionals, and even worse this year, the uneven pools in AA. I know I'm personally on the good end of the bargain, but I certainly realize how absurd the pools are.

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Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh »

After one question on WGN Radio, Kathy and Judy agreed that pyramidal format was amazing. "You get little clues, then the easier ones." Either Reinstein seeded them with that line (perfectly fine by me), or the benefits of pyramidality are obvious enough that even laypeople can understand it.

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Post by ecks »

Does anyone have an idea of how Glenwood was this year, like playing against them? I saw their performance at regionals, and they played what looked like a fairly close game to Carbondale, but C-dale has been really good these past years... although not at Bloomington's level...
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Post by Deviant Insider »

Glenwood keeps track of results on their website. They are a good team and have been for years.

I did not tell Kathy & Judy to make the comment they did--off the air, I dealt only with their producer, who is not the guy who was on with them. They are pretty sharp for people who don't spend their lives in an academic setting.
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Post by Tegan »

styxman wrote:So let's take it out of IHSA's hands.

This is going to sound critical .... but it isn't. If IHSA stops sponsorship (not the worst thing in the world) be prepared for a huge number of schools to do so as well ..... including some schools with good teams. Some schools for contractual reaons tie their coaches contracts to the IHSA sponsorship. No IHSA, figure on losing anywhere from 100-300 teams.

At sectionals, participating teams would be divided up into four well defined regions of Northern, Central, Southern, and Chicago. Each sectional would then rank all their teams from top to bottom, then place them into pools of 8-12 or 14 teams for round robin sectional qualifying.
The problem here: for example, Southern Illinois would need to rank roughly 50 teams, but the Chicago area would need to rank nearly 150 teams (depending on where one drew the line. Putting ALL of the Chicago area teams in one area is ot a solution to the problem, justlike putting all of the Central Illinois teams together solves little.

All round robin pool winners (or top 2, or top 3; can be decided later) automatically advance to the state finals, and at-large bids are awarded to teams with good stats (bonus conversion, ppg, strength of schedule, and the like are all possible stats to consider)
I like the wildcard idea, but this basing at-large bids on ppg or some such is problematic. This give a decidedly big advantage to a better than average team playing weak competition, and a big disadvantage to good teams playing good opposition. I'm prettty opposed to any system that does not account for a strength of schedule.
teams will actually have played games before the state series began to allow adequate seeding - this was a huge problem in a bunch of Class A sectionals. The 2 seed in Bago's subsectional had played 2 games all year.
Every year, we push for a 6 match minimum, and each year the downstate reps (who dominate the committee more than ever now) howl that this is unfair. If the IHSA knew that these are the teams causing their biggest headaches, they might push it more, but right now, that is not the case.
I think that NAQT's got a good system with their small school national championship, having all schools play against each other because when an amazing Class A team comes along that can compete against the AA's, that team shouldn't be brought down to the Class A level by their school's enrollment. Perhaps, of the 48-64 teams that go down state, the Class A teams that legitimately make the field would be placed in a championship bracket of their own after the round of pool play at state. (Of course, if a Class A team qualified for the upper tier bracket they could play there.)
I think NAQT's system works because the teams that come to Nationals are pretty legit, hard working teams, who don't care who they play. That is NOT the case with a majority of Class A teams in Illinois. Most would never submit to being lumped in with AA teams. Even at Masonic, there was grumbling, and they were getting money to show up!
Secondly, the idea of playing 12 games in a day is impossible with 75 minute matches like IHSA's got. NAQT timed format would solve this problem,

The problem: you must have good moderators. We did Northwestern this year, and it was a complete and utter sham! At one point, the moderator admitted that he didn't know how much time teams had to answer questions. We average 14 TU per game (we had two reach 20). You need very qualified, fast, clear, experienced modertors or the show's off.

ETA: After reading Laird's post, I should throw it out there that 30 question matches are insane. As Coach Niemeier points out every year at Regionals, the first year of IHSA state championships used 40 question matches that took nearly two hours to play one match. My proposal would most likely use 20 question matches.

I would be more likely to suggest dropping the umber to 24 .... but they need to be quality questions.

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