Pronunciation/Spelling

[ProsperoSMS]

How close do you insist on punctuation to be before you call for a student to spell his/her response, and once the spelling is called for, how close do you call for it to be?

At a recent competition, I heard a question asking to name the former Daily Show correspondent who now had his own show which dealt with "truthiness" in the news. The team asked the question took a long time to respond then finally said what clearly sounded like Corbert (/Kor-Bair/). The moderator said, "Yes, Stephen Colbert" (/Kol-bair/). At this point, another official (who, by the rules, had the right to interrupt) stopped the competition and asked the team to spell it's answer. Again with a pause, they began "C-o-b-e-a-r...", at which point they were ruled incorrect. As the moderator had given the correct pronunciation, the opposing team was given a substitute question.

Personally, I have no problem with the ruling. To me, Corbert and Colbert are too far apart. My take on it is that either one team member knew the answer, but his captain couldn't understand what was being said and thus butchered the pronunciation and subsequent spelling, trying to rectify the mistake he'd realized he'd made when the correct pronunciation was given, or he just had a vague guess and took a stab, only to miss the question. Either way, Corbert is wrong in my mind. I think asking them to spell it was fine, although they might have just been ruled wrong. I also find the subsequent spelling too far off.

To me, pronunciation has to be "close enough", and for one like this, I would personally have accepted /Kol-burt/ as well, but I think confusing consonants like L and R is too far afield to credit the answer.

What do you all say?

Hugh

[Skepticism and Animal Feed]

L and R are very similar consonants, so close that native speakers of languages with only one of them (or without either of them) often cannot distinguish between the two.

If I were to adopt or propose a rule about acceptable consonant variation, lr and r would certainly be in there.

[ProsperoSMS]

Those answering the question were all native speakers of English, who had no trouble with pronunciation on any other question. The r was so clearly enunciated, I think it was intended.

I would fear passing a similar consonant rule would lead to all kinds of "near misses" being acceptable--how many sibilant consonants can sound alike, or dental sounds (d and t)?

[quizbowllee]

I haven't really made up my mind on this. I lean towards the idea that quiz bowl should test whether one knows the answer, not whether one can pronounce - or even necessarily spell - the answer.

We had a situation a couple of weeks ago in an elimination play-off round where the answer to a tossup was "concierge." My player buzzed in and pronounced it without the "g." It sounded like "con-see-air." The other team's coach protested, and we lost. Had the moderator asked him to spell it, I think he would've spelled in correctly. Also, I have heard it pronounced this way before. I was pretty livid, as that eliminated us from the tournament. I argued this point, but was over-ruled. We ended up losing on a tie-breaker.

My player CLEARLY knew the answer, but didn't get the points. I'm not sure that is right. On the other hand, I might feel differently if we were on the other side of the argument.

[First Chairman]

From the moderator's side, I would ask the student to repeat the answer to be sure I heard the right pronunciation. I want to be sure before I rule an answer correct that I heard what I heard. (Kind of like how the NFL wants its referrees to be sure that they witnessed a penalty before throwing the yellow flag. )

Now mind that when I do that, I want an identical pronunciation. ANY variation that I can tell between both answers would make me rule the person incorrect.

[rchschem]

I always prompt for spelling if I'm not sure about someone's pronunciation. And I don't need correct spelling, just phonetically accurate enough to highlight the thing I'm looking for.

Eric

[ProsperoSMS]

I agree with Dr. Chuck and Eric on this (as my initial query probably indicated). To me, stating the name incorrectly does not show that a student knows a proper answer. Years ago in high school, I missed the writer of "Rime of the Ancient Mariner." I was a ninth grader at the time who was yet to read it but had seen the name. Misspeaking, I answered Samuel Taylor ColeMAN. To me, that's equivalent to Corbert for Colbert--it's a similar name (which the moderator might be prepared to give the answer, as it's close enough to what they expect to hear) but it isn't the name.

I want a pronunciation that shows either knowledge of the answer or an approximation of how the word looks on the page. I'd have accepted /kol burt/ for Colbert, in the same way I've heard foreign names taken when given clearly American pronunciations (I can't think of a good example at the moment, except for French words/names said with their final consonants pronounced). Generally, I want spelling that's phonetically accurate. In the above example, I would have called for spelling on concierge (I, too, have heard it pronounced that way).

For spellings, the main rule I've heard (although I'm not sure it's normally written at tournaments) is that consonants should be right, and only a cause of Monet vs. Manet would require a vowel (and I believe NAQT rules allow a phonetic substitution).

[First Chairman]

PACE rules allow for some reasonable phonetic variability as long as we are not talking a substantive change. I'm sure NAQT does the same.

[rchschem]

Well, NAQT couldn't even come up with a cool acronym, so they would hardly be the gould standard for spelling issues.

Eric

[Howard]

In most cases, I'd be ready to jump in and say that an answer substituting the R sound for the L sound should not be accepted. But I'm not so ready on this one.

This is a French-sounding (if not French) name where the L sound is barely pronounced. Then add the fact that the team spelled the name "c-o-b-e-a-r," which is rather close to a phonetic spelling.

Here are my thoughts:
1. I didn't hear the actual answer, so I of course defer any actual judgment to those who did. They know better than anyone how pronounced the R sound was in /kor/. If it was clear and pronounced, the judges were correct to deny points (or take them away).
2. In the actual pronunciation of the name, the L sound is not very pronounced, and could be confused with the R sound easily.
3. The fact that a judge asked the team to repeat and even spell the answer implies that the R sound wasn't very pronounced.
4. Teams typically do not need to know how to spell the answers (unless the question specifically asks for such). The fact that the team provided a phonetic spelling works in their favor. If I were a judge and I'd reached this point, I'd award points. Although they haven't demonstrated that they know how to spell the name, they have demonstrated that they know the name.
5. I believe NAQT's specific rules about pronunciation would require this answer not be accepted. I seem to recall something about proper syllable count and proper consonant order. But there may still be some wiggle room. I'll need to reread the rule if I have time.

[Howard]

So, here's the rule.

[quote="NAQT]Pronunciations do not have to be exact. A plausible or phonetic pronunciation is usually acceptable, unless it demonstrates a fundamental lack of understanding about the correct answer (e.g., Malcolm the Tenth is not acceptable for Malcolm X). As a general rule, while leeway may be given to vowel sounds, consonants should be in the correct order (e.g., Olduvai is not the same as Olvudai), and syllables should not be added or omitted.[/quote]

I think the moderators and TD have the ability to use their judgment (very cautiously) in this case. The wiggle room comes in where they say "as a general rule." Using my own rules, I'd accept /korbair/ with a weak first R. On NAQT's rules, I'd think long and hard about whether I wanted to make this an exception. I'm still not sure what I'd do. But I think that with the phrasing in the rule, any ruling made in this circumstance would be reasonable.

[harpersferry]

The rules are too vague for my standards on this subject. I think everyone has been called wrong when they knew the answer because of a "mispronunciation." Sometimes they are justified, but not always. I think that the ultimate standard is to ascertain whether the player knows the answer, just as with prompting. The facts are that language has too much variety to make rules about it (thus why traditionally coded machine translators don't work well). Unfortunately, a case by case evaluation is the only reasonable approach; however, there must be some set of criteria to evaluate on.

Phonetically similar sounds should be acceptable substitutes, in my opinion. However, "phonetically similar" becomes had to define. Should unsounded/sounded pairs be acceptable? (eg d and t) Or should we require that only a sounded be acceptable for a sounded and vice versa? Again, each case is different, so we can't just make a rule that says "any d can be replaced by a t and vice versa"

The other problem is obviously foreign words. Should the anglicized version be accepted? Should more amnesty be given with foreign versus english words? What about foreign words/names that have been generally anglicized and one mistakenly pronounces them authentically? (eg W.E.B. DuBois)

As for the situation at hand, I say accept. The reason being that the player knew the answer. They didn't invert any sounds or truly change the structure of the word. While an r does change the vowel sound, I agree that a weak r can sound like a l. Especially the french unsounded l.

I also object to the spelling idea. Spelling, even only phonetically, is not likely going to be easy on words that were mispronounced in the first place. I can't spell well, so perhaps I am biased. But there are flaws to this idea that spelling will clarify the problem.

Also, what about moderator corrections? I heard some helpful tips that have remedied some butchered words, but I don't like moderators to correct on inconsequential or debatable names. Sometimes a moderator will correct a pronunciation and be wrong. As a general rule, I think that moderators should not correct except in a friendly match. Splitting hairs over accent or vowels is just unnecessary.

Also unfortunately, pronunciation standards among moderators varies almost as much as their own pronunciation skills. This is also a potential site for abuse or inconsistency. I think moderators should remember, though, that players not only don't get to read the word, nor look at it beforehand, but must pull it out of the immense memory and do their best at pronouncing it. I would say give the player the benefit of the doubt because if they can get close enough for you to debate about it, they probably know what they're talking about.

[ProsperoSMS]

I did witness the event I asked about. The R was distinctly pronounced, and my immediate thought to myself was that it was wrong. This mispronunciation was even more obvious when the moderator gave the correct pronunciation. I would say the moderator made the mistake in announcing it was right at that point, but I do think the answer had to be denied in the long run (you couldn't just leave it as accepted because the moderator took it at first).

I disagree that you should always take something if you "demonstrate you know the answer." Otherwise, a student who says Jerry Bush when meaning George but then quickly corrects would get the answer because that students shows he/she knows the answer. Correct answers have to be given first. Otherwise, teams can fumble responses and get credit so long as they correct in a timely manner or keep things "close enough." Getting an answer very close but misspeaking, to me, negates an answer, even if the player knew it in his heart all along and just slipped up. Otherwise, we wouldn't take the first thing said.

[rchschem]

Phonetically similar sounds should be acceptable substitutes, in my opinion. However, "phonetically similar" becomes had to define. Should unsounded/sounded pairs be acceptable? (eg d and t) Or should we require that only a sounded be acceptable for a sounded and vice versa? Again, each case is different, so we can't just make a rule that says "any d can be replaced by a t and vice versa"

The other problem is obviously foreign words. Should the anglicized version be accepted? Should more amnesty be given with foreign versus english words? What about foreign words/names that have been generally anglicized and one mistakenly pronounces them authentically? (eg W.E.B. DuBois)

I think you're splitting hairs here. We have a player who has of late decided that it's fun ton intentionally anglicize words when he gives answers: Wagner, Camus, Manet, etc. Has he been penalized? Should he be? I don't think anyone would call his answers wrong (though illiterate and possibly Philistine might come to mind). I don't know of any case where in a competition I have seen a player reprimanded for anglicizing a name innocently. There are cases where applying a foreign appellation to a non-foreign word is wrong (eg. the order "primata" for primate, while chordate/chordata are both acceptable). But this isn't that. Moderator latitude is expected on pronunciation; if no one in the room lodges a protest when this is misapplied, then the work of every person in the room is cut out for next season.

As for the situation at hand, I say accept. The reason being that the player knew the answer. They didn't invert any sounds or truly change the structure of the word.

Here I completely disagree. The player said CoRbert, not CoLbert. He did truly change the structure of the word. This isn't just mispronunciation.

I also object to the spelling idea. Spelling, even only phonetically, is not likely going to be easy on words that were mispronounced in the first place. I can't spell well, so perhaps I am biased. But there are flaws to this idea that spelling will clarify the problem.

I think you misunderstand the spelling idea. The only reason spelling should be invoked is exactly to tell whether or not the player thinks the man's name is spelled with an internal L or R. This isn't subtle, and anyone who spells the name with an internal R does not "know the answer" as you say later. At least, any more than he knows that the 39th U.S. President Jimmy Calter, or board moderator Matt Weinel. The spelling prompt is a way to tell whether the player simply does not know how to pronounce the word or whether he thinks it's a different word entirely (albeit a one letter difference).

Consider if we asked for written responses. We'd accept misspellings as long as you weren't spelling "Jefferson" A-D-A-M-S. We have to treat pronunciations as verbal misspellings.

Eric

[Tegan]

In Illinois, this is a "moderator decision" area...and they have varied widely.

Once on an answer of "W.E.B. DuBois" I had a French student pronounce it "Doob-wah" and was ruled incorrect by the moderator (an English teacher), I protested, and asked him to have her spell it. He refused. He changed his tune in later years, and is a fine moderator. I think since then I have tended to favor leniency on pronunciation. Clearly, my player did pronounce the name wrong, but did know who was being asked for. Ironically, a less intelligent moderator would have given us the answer, no questions asked.

There's the flip side: As an official, I'll admit that I do not know every possible pronunciation of a name in the various languages of the world, and I have had to counsel my foreign born players (Russia, Poland) to stop thinking intelligent, and talk like how a dumb American would say it. In other words: assume the moderator is ignorant, and say it the way they would want you to say it. To do otherwise is to take a risk that they won't accept it, and won't believe a protest starting with "but that's how they say it in <insert country here>. It's a shame that to be a good player, you have to dumb down your pronunciation skills from time to time. We got burned once on "Paderewski" which has a different pronunciation in Polish, and one of my Polish born players came in with the proper pronunciation, got ruled wrong, and the official wouldn't take our word on it.

In short, unless all moderators are equipped with universal translators, I think pronunciation has to be erred on the side of giving it to them, unless there is a clear case that it is a different answer....especially on foreign names.

[quizbowllee]

I have had to counsel my foreign born players (Russia, Poland) to stop thinking intelligent, and talk like how a dumb American would say it. In other words: assume the moderator is ignorant, and say it the way they would want you to say it.

HAHA. I do the same thing. I often mispronounce words when reading in practice on purpose. I tell the team that I'm saying it the way most moderators will because they don't know better. I try to get my team used to bad readers this way. The problem is, sometimes they pick up on those things. For example, I'm having a time breaking them of pronouncing "Fauvism" incorrectly.

It might be a good idea to start a thread where we put the correct pronunciations of commonly mistaken words. For example, I still haven't heard a definitive way to pronounce "Pachelbel." As a player, I was made fun of by moderators no matter how I said it. I still don't know the right way. DuBois is another one. I'm sure now that it is "DU-BOYCE," but I've heard it "DU-BWAH" a million times.

What about "Don Juan." More than once as a player back in the day, I was called incorrect for pronouncing the Byron work "Don Waun." I can't bring myself to pronounce it "Don -JOO-AN." I feel like I knew the answer, so why must I pronounce it in the Anglicanized manner when it is far more often pronounced the other way? Fortunately this hasn't reared its head for my high school team, but I know it will and I'm not sure what to tell them to say.

[ProsperoSMS]

One pedantic point (in a pedantic thread I started): "Don Juan" by Byron is pronounced Don Joo-Un not because it's Anglicized but because that's how Byron chose to say it to fit the feminine rhyme of his poem. It's intentionally a silly-sounding name for a mock epic.

I wouldn't count it wrong if someone said Don Wan for Don Joo-Un. In fact, I'd expect many moderators would not expect the Byronic answer.

[quizbowllee]

One pedantic point (in a pedantic thread I started): "Don Juan" by Byron is pronounced Don Joo-Un not because it's Anglicized but because that's how Byron chose to say it to fit the feminine rhyme of his poem. It's intentionally a silly-sounding name for a mock epic.

I wouldn't count it wrong if someone said Don Wan for Don Joo-Un. In fact, I'd expect many moderators would not expect the Byronic answer.

I realize this. Byron intentionally mispronounced it. I choose not to.

[ProsperoSMS]

I realize this. Byron intentionally mispronounced it. I choose not to.

Ah, gotcha. I stay pedantic with it, as I do like to get the rhymes to work.

On a similar note, has there ever been a problem with Don Key-ho-tea vs. Don Quicks-hote?

[quizbowllee]

Actually, yeah. I've had a lot of beginners do that. I try to correct students when I know how... But even after several years in this activity, there are several things that I'm not sure about.