HS quiz bowl formality

[penforprez]

I was wondering: How formal are HS quiz bowl rounds conducted elsewhere in this country?

I ask because I was reflecting about how it's done here in Missouri. It's ridiculous here. Problem A is that Missouri HS QB is overseen by the organization that regulates athletics, etc. (In this case, the Missouri State High School Activities Association or MSHSAA.)

MSHSAA District and State rounds require strict timing and formal player recognition (a la CBI). The state tournament runs 4 people per room to handle this, which to me seems a logistical fallacy. Tournaments run by older coaches tend to run the same way, simply because MSHSAA does it that way.

Of course, those of us who played in college know better, and we run it in a more sane way. When I moderate regular season tournaments, I refuse to do it that way (when moderator recognition is necessary). When I read at State, I allow that; they pay me good money to play by their rules.

I was just thinking about that today and I wondered if it ran that way elsewhere. Does it run that formal anywhere else, or is it more college style? Just a thought.

[Hobodog]

In Alabama we lie somewhere in between. We require recognition but its a pretty informal form of recognition (usually). There are some other formalties such as who can lodge protests and who can present answers for PLEASE MAKE FUN OF ME BECAUSE I SPEAK NEITHER LATIN NOR ENGLISH but they aren't really intrusive until you get into the higher stakes matches were both teams are trying to work the game to their advantage. A lot of how the matches go depends on the teams playing. As far as discipline goes in the Scholar's Bowl (quiz bowl) world, our team lies somewhere near the bottom. I wouldn't say we don't know the rules, we just tend to be very relaxed and sometimes a bit noisy. I personally often go ADD on the whole things and miss whole statements by the moderator, its pretty ridiculous. We've been known to physically harass each other too and as I said before, until you get into the higher stakes matches (we get more serious) or start playing the more serious teams, then how we approach Quiz Bowl works in AL.

Either way, what I am trying to say is, I haven't played in College, probably won't if I don't feel like goign for the GT team, but I perceive AL Scholar's Bowl, even ASCA matches to be a pretty relaxed activity that's not usually too intense and rule-ridden.

[David Riley]

Illinois has, IMNSHO, too many behavioral rules. Our terms and conditions, rule book, and case manual together are long but necessary because nothing really existed until members of the IHSSBCA took on the task of sorting things out a few years ago. Many of these rules now exist to cover situations that, frankly, are quite common and should have been addressed a long time ago.

But fortunately, things are looking up--we have begun a fomral program to certify moderators, we have a much better relationship with IHSA than we did when I started to coach 13 years ago, and the IHSSBCA has instituted a lot of worthwhile programs.

Don't give up! See if you can work with other coaches in your area to make quiz bowl better.

[Skepticism and Animal Feed]

Does IHSA still have that rule where if one team doesn't have matching uniforms, it starts out with -30 points?

[Stained Diviner]

Does IHSA still have that rule where if one team doesn't have matching uniforms, it starts out with -30 points?

Yes. I was at the IHSA Advisory Committee Meeting last year as a non-voting invitee and asked them to replace the rule with one stating that teams must have respectful clothes. I was voted down by other coaches. (However, the rule only applies to our state tournaments. All the other tournaments in Illinois do not go by this rule.)

Fortunately, we did decrease the penalty for giving an answer without being recognized a few years ago. It used to be that the answer was considered wrong if it was given before you were recognized by name. Now, the rule is that you get five points for the tossup instead of ten.

My team often introduces itself using themed nicknames at the beginning of a match. There are certain coaches (now very small in number) we sometimes face where I tell my team not to do so because it will lead to my program being insulted or protested against.

[Manyo2]

Governor's Cup-format matches in Kentucky are VERY formal as compared to other places. In Kentucky, computers are used during the matches, which I haven't seen duplicated anywhere else. If you respond before the spotter says your name when it comes up on screen, the answer is ruled incorrect. There are also a very high number of per capita protests as compared to other formats I've played. All of the rules, such as only coaches can call timeouts, are very strictly enforced. There isn't any dress code though (and we would be in serious trouble if there was) and the idea of one just sounds really funny to me.

In terms of team discipline, we are probably near the bottom among schools we've seen. We are very relaxed and can also be noisy at times. In fact, we were called out specifically at ACE Camp on at least one occasion.

[bigtrain]

My team often introduces itself using themed nicknames at the beginning of a match. There are certain coaches (now very small in number) we sometimes face where I tell my team not to do so because it will lead to my program being insulted or protested against.

That's absolutely ridiculous. Do they still insult you after you crush them mercilessly? At our most recent tournament we played as brands of alchohol (Jose Cuervo, Jack Daniels, Captain Morgan, etc.) and no one cared at all. In hindsight, I think that our choice of names may have been inappropriate, but nonetheless, no one said anything to our team about it. If you're using names of baseball players, Golden Girls or Tellytubbies than I see no reason why a coach or player would have any right to insult you for it. In fact, I would be inclined to protest the other team for insulting me or my team in any way for our names.

[David Riley]

Well, once we played DReinstein's team and I asked the moderator if she would let us introduce ourselves first, and we beat them to the punch with nicknazmes.

Unfortunately this kind of thing (insulting a team for using nicknames) still happens occasionally. As for the alcohol names, let me just say Maryland must be a more enlightened(?) state than Illinois. My team and I once played a tournament in downstate Illinois (a very well-run tournament, by the way, and for the school's first hosting) that had a Special Category of South Park. The questions were rather tame, but you never heard so much cluck-clucking in your life: "totally inappropriate", "now they're all going to watch the show". I felt sorry for the coach, who had written excellent questions and added a number of personal touches to make the tournament fun as well as challenging(I'm not saying challenging isn't fun, but we have a number of self-esteem gurus--you know what I mean, let's banish that word from the educational vocabulary--) around here.

[Skepticism and Animal Feed]

When I played Scholastic Bowl in Illinois, I would put "Captain Bruce", rather than just "Bruce", on my name tags. Apparently, this in and of itself was seen as inappropriate by many of the coaches I played against, and I got a lot of evil looks and condescending lectures.

In my last game before I graduated, I decided to promote myself and used a nametag that said "Commodore Bruce". I kid you not, the opposing coach told me this was unacceptable and refused to start the game until I got a new nametag.

[dtaylor4]

Does IHSA still have that rule where if one team doesn't have matching uniforms, it starts out with -30 points?

Yes. I was at the IHSA Advisory Committee Meeting last year as a non-voting invitee and asked them to replace the rule with one stating that teams must have respectful clothes. I was voted down by other coaches. (However, the rule only applies to our state tournaments. All the other tournaments in Illinois do not go by this rule.)

My team and I once played a tournament in downstate Illinois (a very well-run tournament, by the way, and for the school's first hosting) that had a Special Category of South Park.

Mr. Reinstien, IIRC, doesn't the Masonic tournament have a similar requirement with the penalty being forfeiture?

Another tournament hosted by the same school that did "South Park" had a special category of "Pro Wrestling".

As for formality, it depends on the coach. I've made up answers that have infuriated coaches (one coach didn't even want me to shake the hands of her team after a 300-point beatdown), while other coaches of not-so-good teams didn't mind (one team always used either Kurt Angle or Nebraska Cornhuskers for guesses).

[Tegan]

While there has been a lot of talk about "formality in Illinois", there are in general reasons why some of these rules popped up...and while many of them are not the best, there is some history to them that at one time made sense (like most well meaning but antiquated ideas).

The whole recognition thing goes back to when lockouts were far less dependable. In addition, if someone is blurting something out as a buzzer is going off, and mis-speaks an answer, a reaction from a teammate could tell them to change what they said when the moderator invariably says "repeat". Up until three years ago, speaking before recognition was an automatic "wrong".

The mathing tops thing came about because there were a few teams who were showing up to tournaments looking like honest to goodness slobs, and in some cases were out and out mocking other teams. A few coaches requested a policy requiring neat clothes....someone yelled out "uniforms" and the next thing you knew, it became policy. When a certain team from a certain south-Illinois metropolitan area showed up at IHSA State wearing prison jump suits with "IHSA corrections" on them, the policy was further tightened....while I wholly understand the reaction given the rather draconian nature of IHSA and its policies, it was a bit unprofessional looking.....IMO.

The cutesy nickname/introduction thing rubs a lot of people the wrong way (based on conversations which I have had to endure, far more than are willing to speak up). Several years ago, the IHSA responded by writing their own name placards for the State Tournament, and requiring teams to use them. Again....something that some people could care less about, but rubbed some people the wrong way ended up getting legislated against.

[STPickrell]

VHSL:

Remember, as with many things VHSL, there is some variation from district to district.

There is no dress code. Probably about 1/3-1/2 of the teams have polo shirts as their "uniforms" and one team at states had sweater vests. A few of the teams just wear shirts and ties and the others are dressed informally.

One of the players at states yesterday was wearing pirate gear.

There is a recognition rule. It varies from area to area. Some areas, a pointing in that direction along with the player seeing their light is on suffices. Other areas, you have to wait until your name or number is said. After one warning per team, there is a 5 point foul for answering w/o being recognized.

Some coaches are more respectful than others regarding things like funny guesses, etc. The coaches' survey by a margin of 4-1 or something of the sort wanted to either keep pop culture at 3 of 55 questions or even increase it to 4 or 5.

I don't really mind the nicknames, but I would prefer that there be an "answer key" equating nicknames and real names. This would be for people attempting to use the tournament results as scouting material.

Protests can be lodged by a player or coach. If everyone can agree on something within 30 seconds, we just resolve it on the spot. I'm trying to relax the rules a bit, including no longer believing in "paper infallibility." There's no reason a room full of (presumably) smart people, in a building full of other smart people, with full access to a large number of reference books and the Internet, need to blindly accept what's on the paper.

We do have four officials per room: one quizmaster, one math judge, one social studies judge and one timekeeper (the judges also serve as scorekeepers.)

[Deadweight_Cassius]

Wow, after reading all of these I find it difficult to imagine if playing outside of Ohio would be any fun. In Ohio our leagues are under the Ohio High School Athletic Assosciation's jurisdiction but there is no real sense of severity to the enforcement of the rules.

There is no state wide dress code and while schools like mine have uniforms (polo shirts) with the logo and "Academic Team" on them, many of us don't wear those on a consitent basis. I know for certain that I always wear my track sweatshirt over it and our captain always wears his Xavier hoodie. Other schools on the other hand, namely Columbus Academy, wear shirts, ties, and suit jackets to every tournament.

As for enforcement on recognition, it varies from tournament to tournament. Just this past weekend at a tournament we had one of our guys give an answer on four different occassions before being recognized and we were not penalized a single time in that round. However, in the next round he again buzzed in and gave an answer before being recognized and we were not warned, just had the question taken away from us. I suppose if there was any consistency in enforcing the rules, there would be no points taken away, only the tossup would be dead to that team, essentially giving the other team free points.

I like to see the nicknames at tournaments as I see it as being all in good fun. I consistently go by my nickname "Cassius" at tournaments and have never been questioned about it. The only occassion where I will not do this is if they're keeping track of individual stats. Also, I love to joke around with question content. Last weekend on a math question involving Notre Dame's ranking being inversely proportional to the number of turnovers they have in a game and the number of points their opponent scored (they wanted what Notre Dame's ranking would be if they turned it over "x" times and gave up "y" points) at the end of time, I simply buzzed in and answered "Unranked, but they would qualify for a BCS bowl game and multi-million dollar TV contract with NBC." Its these kinds of things that keep tournaments fun for me and my teammates even when we're not having the best of days.

[Tegan]

Wow, after reading all of these I find it difficult to imagine if playing outside of Ohio would be any fun. In Ohio our leagues are under the Ohio High School Athletic Assosciation's jurisdiction but there is no real sense of severity to the enforcement of the rules.
As for enforcement on recognition, it varies from tournament to tournament. Just this past weekend at a tournament we had one of our guys give an answer on four different occassions before being recognized and we were not penalized a single time in that round. However, in the next round he again buzzed in and gave an answer before being recognized and we were not warned, just had the question taken away from us.

Not ever having played Ohio format (read: I'm speaking from ignorance) doesn't this inconsistency take away from the fun and ratchet up the frustration?

Last week I was at a frosh-soph tournament where an inexperienced moderator kept looking at my team in terms of recognition. Afterwards I said "Great reader, but make sure you call out the kids' names because we usually tell them to say nothing until called".

Sure enough, we go to the next room, My guy rings in, the mod is looking for his name tag, and he blurts out the answer. The other coach was very quick to call for the penalty, and I was left their feeling stupid because my guy got into a bad habit (under our format). It was my fault as a coach letting my team get away with getting lax on the rules, and putting ourselves in an indefensible position.

From what it sounds like (emphasize: sounds) is that Ohio plays something like Illinois used to: there were southern Illinois rules, central Illinois rules, western Illinois rules, and Chicago area rules...as you went from tournament to tournament, you had to learn a whole new set of rules every time.

[Deadweight_Cassius]

While sometimes the inconsistency can be a bit frustrating, I as an individual have no real problem with it. Its true that different tournaments from different areas have different and minor differences on recognition and such, but the fact that we've been visiting these tournaments on a consistent basis for a number of years makes it easier to know which tournaments are going to run which ways.

Most of the tournaments that we travel to are OAC or NAQT format and we know how to handle ourselves and "test the waters" in the early rounds. For those tourneys that are not OAC or NAQT we know that they are very, very informal and usually don't worry about the rules a whole lot in the context of strictness as these tournaments don't usually have regional berths on the line.

Maybe it would be more fun and challenging to play in a state where the rules are more strictly enforced, especially state wide. It'll be great to see this year at ACE camp how the different states work in their tournaments.

[jbarnes112358]

VHSL:


Protests can be lodged by a player or coach.

This is reasonable. But, I believe the VHSL rules state that only the coach can protest. This is bad because more often than not, the players are going to know more about what should be protested than will the coach.
Hopefully, this can be fixed.

Also, the 5 point penalty for not waiting to be recognized, especially since there is so much variabilty in how recognition is conducted, even at the same tournament from room to room, is unnecessary and bordline unfair. If you are going to have such a rule, it should be enforced consistently, or not at all. Personally, I do not see the big need to have such a rule to begin with. It is certainly a shame when a team loses a game because of a technical penalty like that, as happened to us this year at states. Our player started an answer, but realizing he had not been recognized stopped his answer short so he could be recognized formally. The quizmaster was inclined to let the "infraction" slide, but a protest by the opposing coach caused the judges to eventually reverse that decision and give the win to the opposing team. I am not saying the decision was necessarily wrong given the rules as stated, but it was definitely a hard pill to swallow to lose a game and be eliminated from a state championship tournament on such a technicality. Without the "infraction", the game would have been tied and the game would have gone into overtime where the game would have been won or lost by the play of the game and not by a silly rule infraction. The team that then won the game would know it was because they played the better game, and team that lost would know it was becase they played the worse game, and not that the outcome was due to a gratuitous penalty.

[STPickrell]

Dr. Barnes, you are correct.

I have restated my "interpretations" to allow a player to ask a coach to file a protest. I'll spare the cut and paste from my document. Eventually, every coach in the state will have this lovely document. It'll be nice to have a single source of "Da Rules."

As for the recognition rule, I will take a look at that one.

I will see to it that both issues (players being allowed to file protests and the recognition rule) will be looked at the next Scholastic Bowl Advisory Committee meeting. Here's what I think will happen:

(1) I think players being able to lodge protests might be argued out. I know of one example from a District tournament where the coach was a history teacher and the question was a science question. Everyone just sort of looked at each other wondering what to do, but not hearing a protest, the coach moved on. If a player makes a number of spurious protests, we have sportsmanship provisions in the VHSL handbook to police this.

(2) I'm not sure the recognition rule will be removed entirely.

(3) I might be able to get a "player stops himself before being recognized" interpretation accepted. It is the same logic as the "player corrects himself mid-sentence while answering" interpretation which seems to have achieved general acceptance.

Feedback is always welcomed. Let me know if you'd like more info about this Advisory Committee.

[genius00345]

(*bump...haven't logged on in a while.*)

I'm a Missouri QB player like the topic starter here.

However, I actually enjoy playing under this format.

"Negging" and the concept of negative points seems outrageous to me. I'm not sure why, but it just feels odd to 'take away' points. As in this scenario: Player A and B are teammates. Player A answers a toss up right for 10 points. Player B violates a rule and the team is docked 5 points. Why was player A penalized for B's mistake?

Pyramidal tossups and blitzing too...Most of our tossups aren't more than 2 sentences. Seems to me like a "you know it or you don't" principle.

Strict timing? I'm not sure I understand exactly what penforprez means. If there were no timing, matches could last for days ("filibuster"?).

Moderator recognition: Minimizes cheating. Plus, anyone 'scouting', or a parent trying to watch their child may not know when a question is being answered because the student's name was never said. Also helps to ensure that the points are distributed correctly.

Feel free to criticize or commend my comments. I'm an avid quiz bowler and like to hear about other formats.

--Alex

[Chico the Rainmaker]

I think you were indeed misinterpreting the idea of "timing". What I assume he was referring to is the debate between NAQT-style rounds where matches consist of two strictly-timed nine minute halves (strictly to the point where a tossup is killed if the clock goes off) and other formats where a set number of questions are read but you still only have (approximately) 2 seconds to answer a tossup after you buzz and 5 seconds per bonus. So you see, there would be no issue of "filibustering" here....

[STPickrell]

Alex,

Negging is a fair enough thing to debate. I am ambivalent on the issue and would not consider a format "invalid" if there were no negs. I know there is a little bit of confusion just "when" a question has ended. Some moderators will have their hand in the air and put it on the table when they are finished.

I had not considered that moderator recognition helps someone unfamiliar with academic competition follow the match. And yes, you're right, it does help a scorekeeper ensure that individual stats are kept correctly. In VHSL play, individual stats are simply not kept. On the other hand, I don't know what forms of cheating it would reduce.

Pyramidal questions with easy to moderate answers are the best way to go, for both talented and less-talented teams.

By pyramidal, I mean 2-4 sentences, with multiple clues, and structured so the first clue points to a unique answer and clues decline in difficulty. Granted, we might misfire on occasion, and be wrong in our judgment of what's hard and what isn't.

A set of short questions, with easy answers, would involve 8 players in a TJ-Maggie Walker (or even Princess Anne-Ocean Lakes, Spotswood-R.E. Lee, or other good teams) enjoying the chance to perform simultaneous thumb flexes. That's not a test of knowledge, or a challenge, that's a reflex test.

A set of short questions with answers that can challenge the top team will lead to matches with scores in the realm of 50-20 at the weaker schools. I kid you not, I had an athletic director tell me that was the score of an Academic Hallmarks-written match in their district. (There are 500 possible points in the VHSL format.) That's not a test of knowledge either, that's a test of which team won't fall asleep first.

I would be far less engaged in a format where I was asked questions on stuff I neither knew, nor cared about, than a format where the questions might drone on for a bit, but that I eventually knew the answer to.

But thanks for posting. Sometimes, certain things become almost axiomatic. I think on occasion, we need to define/defend why things have become orthodoxy at the highest levels of quizbowl. One thing I have wondered about is how conferring on tossups has become verbotten in 80% of the country, and sacrosanct in the other 20%.

On a related level, I do wish the MSHSAA would relax its rule about competing out of state after the State tournament. I know that Liberty, SLUH, Savannah, Richland, etc., would not embarrass themselves at the various National-level tournaments.

I am highly thankful the VHSL has avoided falling into that trap, it has allowed Virginia teams to compete against the top levels in the country, not only in quizbowl but in other VHSL-sponsored activities.

[Tegan]

"Negging" and the concept of negative points seems outrageous to me. I'm not sure why, but it just feels odd to 'take away' points. As in this scenario: Player A and B are teammates. Player A answers a toss up right for 10 points. Player B violates a rule and the team is docked 5 points. Why was player A penalized for B's mistake?

While I'm not the biggest fan of negative points either, I understand the need for it in some formats. The penalty counters the reward of the power. I've played both formats. I can take it or leave it.

Pyramidal tossups and blitzing too...Most of our tossups aren't more than 2 sentences. Seems to me like a "you know it or you don't" principle.

I used to think the same way years ago, but have come around a great deal on this. Without pyramidal structure (and it doesn't have to be 14 lines as I have seen....I have seen excellent pyramid questions in 14 point font, one inch margins, run three-four lines.

If its a short question, maybe one-two clues, the only skill being tested is speed. Nothing more. Occasionally, you get a player who is the only one to know the answer, but there is no other seperator between players. In pyramidal questions, the player who has studied more, worked harder, etc has a statistically better chance of knowing the answer before another player. Speed remains a component, but depth of knowledge is also being tested. You could write a one line question using only the hardest clue from a pyramidal question, but it is far more likely that no one will know the answer...which IMO kills the fun of the match (not to mention is a strategy by a question writer to keep teams strong in a particular area from scoring).

Moderator recognition: Minimizes cheating. Plus, anyone 'scouting', or a parent trying to watch their child may not know when a question is being answered because the student's name was never said. Also helps to ensure that the points are distributed correctly.

I've had people tell me that this is some "Midwest formality", though I more and more like the idea of requiring recognition for many of the reasons you just mentioned (Illinois is pretty strict on it, but has relaxed the penalty in recent years).

There was a team I once payed in NAQT that had a great scheme: Ring in, blurt the answer quietly, and wait to catch the teammates reaction, then modify the answer when asked to repeat. There were some (bad) moderators who apparently kept falling for this a lot.

[quizbowllee]

I've had people tell me that this is some "Midwest formality" ...

Not so. This is a pretty strict rule in The South, too - at least in Alabama.

I've been noticing a little shift on this, as more younger coaches and moderators begin the match by telling us that they think this rule is ridiculous and won't be enforcing it. However, there are still a few sticks in the mud who refuse to change anything.

Furthermore, we are not given a 5 point penalty if not recognized. We just completely lose the chance to answer. If we were correct, the other team - even if they don't know the answer - can buzz in and say what our unrecognized player said and get our points. It's really stupid.

If the light in front of you is on (and assuming the buzzers are working properly), then clearly it was you who buzzed. Duh.

[Tegan]

Furthermore, we are not given a 5 point penalty if not recognized. We just completely lose the chance to answer. If we were correct, the other team - even if they don't know the answer - can buzz in and say what our unrecognized player said and get our points. It's really stupid.

I agree completely. This is too severe a penalty.

If the light in front of you is on (and assuming the buzzers are working properly), then clearly it was you who buzzed. Duh.

True....and I think to a certain extent this rule may be a hold over from when lockouts were less reliable.....BUT...as an official, when I worked NAQT style tournaments, I do sometimes wish the player would wait until I am at least looking at them, as from time to time they mumble, speak with an accent, speak softly, etc, and far too often I need to ask them to repeat themselves (and if you see my last post, after my experience as a coach, I don't like it when I have to do this).

Over the summer at NAQT nationals, I was in a room moderating the consolation matches on Sunday afternoon. There was a particular player who spoke vary softly, and twice I asked him to speak up. On the third instance, he said something, I heard the wrong answer, called it wrong, the other team answered, I gave it to them, and the first team threw a fit. I can only think that a recognition rule could have possibly aided the situation (though I really think that I called it correctly).

[quizbowllee]

I kinda see that as a different issue. I have a pretty decent player on our B-team who just WON'T speak up. Waiting for me to recognize him wouldn't really help, though. It's kind of ironic, because he's a starting running back on our football team, so it's not like he's meek or shy; he just won't answer loudly.

It seems, though, that on a timed round especially, having to wait to be recognized will take valuable seconds off the clock.

I also think that - if such a rule must exist - each team should get at least one warning before any penalty is given.

[Golden Tiger 86]

I've had people tell me that this is some "Midwest formality" ...

Not so. This is a pretty strict rule in The South, too - at least in Alabama.

I've been noticing a little shift on this, as more younger coaches and moderators begin the match by telling us that they think this rule is ridiculous and won't be enforcing it. However, there are still a few sticks in the mud who refuse to change anything.

Furthermore, we are not given a 5 point penalty if not recognized. We just completely lose the chance to answer. If we were correct, the other team - even if they don't know the answer - can buzz in and say what our unrecognized player said and get our points. It's really stupid.

If the light in front of you is on (and assuming the buzzers are working properly), then clearly it was you who buzzed. Duh.

I'm one of the new guys. Me and Chris Pace will normally point as recognition, if that. I always hated playing, because there would be times a moderator would take so long to figure out who buzzed in that I'd forget the answer.

[Tegan]

It seems, though, that on a timed round especially, having to wait to be recognized will take valuable seconds off the clock.

This is very true. Illinois doesn't play timed rounds, so it is less an issue for us, though I could see that this could be an issue in timed rounds.

I also think that - if such a rule must exist - each team should get at least one warning before any penalty is given.

When I officiate, I generally do this for the first month or so. For frosh-soph matches, I will generally do it throughout the year in non-playoff matches. I agree that this makes sense.