Walter Johnson Tournament (WJIAT) 3/18/06 Bethesda, Maryland

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Walter Johnson Tournament (WJIAT) 3/18/06 Bethesda, Maryland

Post by bigtrain »

Dear Academic Team Advisor:

The Walter Johnson “It’s Academicâ€
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Post by DumbJaques »

As things are now, I'm fairly certain Richard Montgomery will be coming with at least two teams.
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Post by insaneindian »

Im sure we would come, but the Blue Hen is on the 18 as well. One of us will lose gonzaga and blair, and im guessing its us, even though they have come to Blue Hen for the past few years. thats on set 56. :sad:
also, we will have heard 58 on 3/11
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Post by DumbJaques »

Im sure we would come, but the Blue Hen is on the 18 as well. One of us will lose gonzaga and blair, and im guessing its us, even though they have come to Blue Hen for the past few years. thats on set 56.
also, we will have heard 58 on 3/11
Considering that, as far as I can tell, your school and one other will be playing at Blue Hen, I would imagine it would be rescheduled. Even if it weren't, would you really go?

I'm also guessing your 3/11 IS-58 tournament is the Elizabethtown one. If I may ask, why go to a local tournament with what I can only imagine is not very good competition and pass up a chance to play some top teams just a few hours away? Given some of your assertions about your team on this board, I'm surprised you haven't actually made a trip to a tournament with a field comparable to what WJ will probably offer. Why not come?
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Post by insaneindian »

well, i just posted what we had originally planned on doing. i dont think we had heard about this tournament, so we'll see what happens, maybe we'll change our schedule around. I'll ask Mr T tomorrow.
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Post by blazer06 »

Yeah we'll probably go to WJ, which saves us 2 hours in the car with David whining about how "early" he got up to come. We'll probably take 1 team, maybe 2.

Edit/ yes we'll probably go to UVA.
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Post by Magister Ludi »

I pretty certain even though we are the reigning champions at the Blue Hen we are probably gonna go to WJ. If at all possible maybe the Blue Hen should think about re-scheduling.
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Post by insaneindian »

Im pretty sure mr T will try to get that thing rescheduled. Otherwise, it will turn out to be a delaware schools tournament...and that. would. suck. :neutral:
another thing: are all you guys going to that cavalier III (UVA) tournament that also uses set 56?
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Post by bigtrain »

We will not be going to Cavalier because we'll be competing at Yale the same day. I believe the same is true of State College.
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Post by btressler »

DumbJaques wrote:Considering that, as far as I can tell, your school and one other will be playing at Blue Hen, I would imagine it would be rescheduled. Even if it weren't, would you really go?

I'm also guessing your 3/11 IS-58 tournament is the Elizabethtown one. If I may ask, why go to a local tournament with what I can only imagine is not very good competition and pass up a chance to play some top teams just a few hours away? Given some of your assertions about your team on this board, I'm surprised you haven't actually made a trip to a tournament with a field comparable to what WJ will probably offer. Why not come?
Even though the date is listed as "tentative" on naqt.com, in fact the Blue Hen will be on March 18. Since this tournament has been the third Saturday in March every year it has been held (save one), I don't think it's going to get rescheduled just because some new tournament comes along. Yes that will dilute the Blue Hen field, but the UD team is small this year anyway so a smaller tournament might be a good thing.

It's been my goal to go to the Lancaster area for a while now, as Lancaster is only 1 hour away, as opposed to the Maryland and Jersey tournaments we've been going to. If Howard had hosted their tournament this year, we probably would have gone.

As opposed to competing against "top teams", don't you worry. We intend to be at Chicago, so there will be plenty of chance to see just what we can accomplish. If we make it as far as we did last year at NCT, it will still be a successful season whether or not we beat a few D.C. schools along the way.
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Post by bigtrain »

Stat74 wrote:It's been my goal to go to the Lancaster area for a while now, as Lancaster is only 1 hour away, as opposed to the Maryland and Jersey tournaments we've been going to.
According to mapquest, Wilmington, DE is only 10-15 closer to Elizabethtown, PA than Bethesda. Supposedly Elizabethtown is 1 hour 45 minutes from Wilmington.
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Post by Howard »

Magister Ludi wrote:I pretty certain even though we are the reigning champions at the Blue Hen we are probably gonna go to WJ. If at all possible maybe the Blue Hen should think about re-scheduling.
I can say that a WJ tournament would likely steer us away from Blue Hen. I think it's rather cavalier, though, to suggest that the originally scheduled tourney-- let me know if I'm wrong about this-- should reschedule.

As for why go to a local tournament that's perceived as inferior? Well, it's local. It's a much shorter day, transport is less grueling and easier to organize, and more people will likely be able to attend. My general policy is to attend a poor local tournament rather than a good nonlocal tournament just for the time savings. There are things to be learned either way.
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Post by bigtrain »

Howard wrote:As for why go to a local tournament that's perceived as inferior? Well, it's local. It's a much shorter day, transport is less grueling and easier to organize, and more people will likely be able to attend. My general policy is to attend a poor local tournament rather than a good nonlocal tournament just for the time savings.
Many people, most notably Mr. Barry, would strongly question your immediate assumption that a high school run tournament is inferior to a university run tournament. I rather resent the assertion myself.
Howard wrote:There are things to be learned either way.
I'm not quite sure what you're referring to here, but you should be aware of that both tournaments will be using regular season invitation level NAQT question sets, thus the question difficulty and quality should be the same.
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Post by DumbJaques »

Since this tournament has been the third Saturday in March every year it has been held (save one), I don't think it's going to get rescheduled just because some new tournament comes along.
I believe the suggestion regarding blue hen being rescheduled came from some observations that only two teams had signed up. Besides, there's no reason not to reschedule a tournament if another day works better for the host team. Unless there's some Egyptian relic with march whatever carved on it sitting at UD, I don't see the problem. And I can't imagine 2 teams is quite what they were going for. I also don't think, Howard, that anything posted on a quizbowl tournament thread can ever be categorized as "cavalier." At least, I hope not.
Yes that will dilute the Blue Hen field, but the UD team is small this year anyway so a smaller tournament might be a good thing.
But a much, much less profitable thing.
As opposed to competing against "top teams", don't you worry. We intend to be at Chicago, so there will be plenty of chance to see just what we can accomplish. If we make it as far as we did last year at NCT, it will still be a successful season whether or not we beat a few D.C. schools along the way.
I wasn't trying to imply that your team hasn't played any any top competition becuase you haven't played DC area teams. I was trying to imply that you haven't played any top competition because you've attended tournaments top teams have not gone to. I anticipate plenty of top teams, from the DC area and from many other places, to be at WJ Of course, there's nothing wrong with choosing not to go to these tournaments. I simply remarked that given the extensive documentation of your team's statitstics and tournament performances by a certain member of your team, I would love to play you guys. The existence of a nationals tournament doesn't make playing good teams in the regular season any less rewarding.
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Post by insaneindian »

The following remarks represent my thoughts, so please dont associate them with my school.
I simply remarked that given the extensive documentation of your team's statitstics and tournament performances by a certain member of your team, I would love to play you guys
well, im sure you would love to play us...you'd probably (definitely) crush us.
look, i know we arent as good as many of the teams in this country. Im not saying we are the hottest stuff since sliced bread. I only remember once posting some babbling (stuff) i shouldnt have posted about a tournament nobody really cared about (LIFT)...I dont believe my crap posting was that "extensive" but i guess it was.

i didnt post anything about rutgers, Lift is the thing im referring to as crap that nobody cared about (rightly so, i guess), princeton: there were some good teams there, including those from the DC area, and we did sorta well. and i posted a thread about NAQT championships because i thought there should be one, and the delaware one is already over. Im so sorry that this was very "extensive". I dont think im missing anything (other than TRASH, i dont think we've been to any other tournaments. If im wrong, feel free to correct me) And im sick of getting crapped on so ill stop posting anything about results now.
:roll:

BTW, Alex, sorry for taking over your thread. :neutral:

and in backwards response to DumbJaques response..."we did sorta well" are the only words mentioning tournament results in this post. But like I said, I'll stop now.

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oh sorry. i didnt know there wasnt a word filter :oops:
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Post by DumbJaques »

So in response to me pointing out that you posted about your tournament results a bit too much, you recapped your tournament results. . . again?


Also, I'm not sorry for taking over your thread, Alex. But I will stop now.

May I suggest the tournament be called the Wildcat-Uberaschung Open?
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Post by btressler »

Howard wrote:I think it's rather cavalier, though, to suggest that the originally scheduled tourney-- let me know if I'm wrong about this-- should reschedule.
Part of the challenge is that being on winter break the UD team hasn't got their act together quite yet. I was expecting to post an official announcement about the tournament next week after I verified some details. However, I think it's been listed on NAQT's schedule since September.

I too find it dismissive offhand disregard to suggest that the Blue Hen needs to be rescheduled. No, we don't have a monument stating that six out of the last seven years the tournament has been the third Saturday in March.

Anyway, the point is probably moot, there's only a handful of schools that would have considered attending both (e.g. Charter, Gonzaga, Howard, Oldfields) Even if Walter Johnson's date were different, I may have run out of bus money for the year and then we won't be going anywhere out of state.
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Post by bigtrain »

there's only a handful of schools that would have considered attending both (e.g. Charter, Gonzaga, Howard, Oldfields)
We would have made the trek to Deleware a second time this year for your tournament if we hadn't been forced into putting our tournament on the same date. Scheduling our tournament on the same day as another was our last option. We even considered hosting the tournament on a Sunday to get around this issue, but even that didn't work out.
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Post by Howard »

bigtrain wrote:
Howard wrote:As for why go to a local tournament that's perceived as inferior? Well, it's local. It's a much shorter day, transport is less grueling and easier to organize, and more people will likely be able to attend. My general policy is to attend a poor local tournament rather than a good nonlocal tournament just for the time savings.
Many people, most notably Mr. Barry, would strongly question your immediate assumption that a high school run tournament is inferior to a university run tournament. I rather resent the assertion myself.
Howard wrote:There are things to be learned either way.
I'm not quite sure what you're referring to here, but you should be aware of that both tournaments will be using regular season invitation level NAQT question sets, thus the question difficulty and quality should be the same.
I apologize for any misunderstanding, bigtrain. These comments were made in general and were not referring to your or any other specific tournament. A few posts above, there was a post supporting attending a quality tourney at a distance (I believe WJ's) instead of a not-so-quality tourney (I believe Blue Hen, due to low attendance, implying not as many quality teams). I was responding as to why someone might choose a (perceived for whatever reason) lower quality tournament just because it was local.

As for the second comment, I was again speaking in general terms. I have personally made the decision to go to local tournaments where I'm sure I was less happy than if I'd gone a few hours to a consistently reputable event. Even after I consider my frustrations, I still can look back at the positive things we were able to practice effectively and know that we left better than we arrived without having to spend the extra 4 to 6 hours driving to and from another location.

Again, I intended no malignment of the WJ tourney. In fact I'm sure it will be well run. And we'll probably be there, so I'll even be able to tell you in person what I think (if you still want to hear it :smile: ).
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Post by Zip Zap Rap Pants »

DumbJaques wrote:
I wasn't trying to imply that your team hasn't played any any top competition becuase you haven't played DC area teams. I was trying to imply that you haven't played any top competition because you've attended tournaments top teams have not gone to. I anticipate plenty of top teams, from the DC area and from many other places, to be at WJ
i.e., "Come into the pool, Charter; the water is lovely" :grin:

yea isn't ACT II on the 18th as well? hmm, now we'll have to choose between ACT II, N.C. State (IS-57A), and Walter Johnson. normally it'd be an easy decision to go ahead and do WJ, but since N.C. State is Dr. Barnes' alma mater, we've sort of been leaning towards that one. we'll probably settle on WJ in the end though, especially since nc state is a-level...
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Post by bigtrain »

We'd love to have Gov at our tournament. We hope you all can come. I didn't know you traditionally went to ACT, at least you weren't there when we were last year, whatever that's worth. Would this be your first chance of the year to face TJ when you both have your full A teams? That is, if they come...
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Post by Zip Zap Rap Pants »

^^actually we normally haven't been going to Spotswood for about 3 or 4 years now. I don't know the whole story, but apparently our A team was winning by a small margin in the final, and they got this category round where the description of it made it seem as though a different answer was needed than it actually turned out they needed to give (it would be like thinking authors were needed rather than works; though I don't quite remember exactly what the problem was, I'm sure it wasn't that bad). anyway, we lost the tournament because of that, and since then we haven't really forgiven Spotswood, although by now it's been so long we don't really care, so yea we forgive them. we would have gone to ACT I this year but only Will and I from our A and B teams could have made it due to Model UN, and plus preparations for our tournament were going on.

Come to think of it, TJ and MLW haven't yet faced off this year with full strength A teams - Mark and Xun were on a field trip in PA (that I happened to also be on) on the weekend of UVA. We'll be at Duke and the Right Triangle Tournaments, and traditionally TJ shows up at Duke, but we won't be anywhere near full strength there (MUN again, our only team there will be Will, Ev(i)an, Yours Truly, and Mehdi from C team). Now we'll most likely face TJ at VHSL States with both full strength teams, but yea I guess WJ will be the first "regular" format tournament with the two. Haha, you should use that to promote the tournament, "Come see the next chapter in the storied rivalry, the titanic clash of two heavyweight champions both bloodthirsty for vengeance, redemption, and tournament titles. And it's only under the lights of Bethesda, only on pay-per-view!"[/i]
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Post by Zip Zap Rap Pants »

-btw, there might have been some speculation in the rumor mill that we (gov) might host a second tournament this year, but it's pretty certain now we won't. for one, the only really good dates would be around AP exams (and i think an SAT date also). also, the only non a-level NAQT set that was really still an option was IS-58, and of course this tournament is using that. we didn't really feel like doing another house written set (although we probably could've convinced Matt Weiner to write one), and besides we've figured out that we can probably send 3 teams to both national tournaments and still only make our players pay airfare to Chi-town.
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Post by jbarnes112358 »

If MLWGS decides to go to WJ over Spotswood it will not be due to any historical animosity towards Spotswood's tournament. We have been to ACT several times in the past and enjoyed the competition. I still remember the very competitive game in the finals a few years back against DCC. We did have some issues 2 or 3 years ago relating to some questions being reused from earlier tournaments, but we understand that was an isolated situation that has been fixed. It is true that we are not all that enamored with category rounds, as they can be misleading, somtimes leading to asymmetrical unfainess and unpredictability. I don't like the category rounds on the Battle of the Brains TV show either. Though I understand some people find categories entertaining.

We very much want to return to ACT, though. Recent dates have not worked out for us. I have tremendous respect for Spotswood's program. We will certainly make an effort to go to ACT I next fall.

But if we end up at WJ it will be because we really enjoy NAQT tounaments. Moreover, we also enjoy going to where we are likely to see the the likes of RM, TJ, and all those other powerful teams from the greater DC metropolitan area. We know we get stronger the more we play against such mighty foes. I can think of no better way to prepare for nationals.
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Post by bigtrain »

The official tournament invitation is now available. We have not finalized plans on the start time, playoff structure and the number of question per round, but I will say we are leaning towards 8:15, power bracketing and 22 questions (untimed).
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Post by Zip Zap Rap Pants »

bigtrain wrote:The official tournament invitation is now available. We have not finalized plans on the start time, playoff structure and the number of question per round, but I will say we are leaning towards 8:15, power bracketing and 22 questions (untimed).
if my recollection of my reading of the naqt rules is correct (which, granted, it might not totally be), official naqt qualifiers must either be timed (9 minute halves) or have 20 tossups/round. i'm sure no one in the tournament would have a problem with 22, but they may be worried about qualifying for nationals and the possible rejection of the official status of the tournament by naqt. of course, if it's status is cleared by naqt, it's all good. just thought i'd point that out in case any problems arise from that.


(BTW, an interesting thing to note about the naqt rules is that i think there's nothing in them that would explicitly ban bouncebacks from their qualifiers)
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Post by bigtrain »

Matt Morrison wrote:but they may be worried about qualifying for nationals
The tournament is a HSNCT qualifier even if it is an unofficial event (which I don't expect it will be). I will email NAQT and ask them if they mind if we use a bit more than 20 questions and still call our tournament an official NAQT event.

Matt Morrison wrote:there's nothing in them that would explicitly ban bouncebacks from their qualifiers)
I'm pretty sure NAQT rules do not allow for bonus bouncebacks:
NAQT Rules Section E2 wrote:A team receives a bonus question for each tossup question correctly answered by one of its players (except in overtime).
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Post by Zip Zap Rap Pants »

bigtrain wrote: I'm pretty sure NAQT rules do not allow for bonus bouncebacks:
NAQT Rules Section E2 wrote:A team receives a bonus question for each tossup question correctly answered by one of its players (except in overtime).
yea that was the section i was thinking of. as i read it, it doesn't say anything like "a team only receives a bonus question for each tossup question correctly answered" or "a team shall only answer bonus questions awarded to them by answering tossups correctly." now, of course it was probably the intention of NAQT to ban bouncebacks, but the language doesn't appear to explicitly forbid it. then again, i guess i'm reading it in the same way that i read the Constitution, very constructionist and libertarian :wink:
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Post by jbarnes112358 »

Start 8:15?

That would be very early for a team driving up from Richmond.
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Post by bigtrain »

Sorry, I should have been more specific: I was thinking of starting registration at 8:15 and end at 8:45 with the first game beginning sometime between 9 and 9:30.
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Post by bigtrain »

So far we only have 6 teams registered:

Eleanor Roosevelt
Fairfax
Richard Montgomery X2
South River
St. Anne's-Belfield

Displayed interest:
Georgetown Day School (1)
Gonzaga (1)
National Cathedral School (1)
TJ(1-6?)
Blair(2)
Blake(1)
Rockville(1)
Whitman(2)
Maggie Walker (?)
Centennial (2-3)

Of the 25 public high schools in Montgomery County, only one (RM) has registered so far, which is extremely unusual. To all teams interested in attending, please register as soon as possible.
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Post by Zip Zap Rap Pants »

Never fear! MLW shall register at some point, we just like to procrastinate. Some people might be missing though (I know I'll be), so it'll probably be 3, maybe 4 teams. Good luck trying to get the other top teams to show up, especially State College because, as you said in the Cav Open thread, they have to come so they can finally play Gov A :wink:
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Post by blazer06 »

I lied. Register us for 3 teams. Thanks.
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Post by bigtrain »

Field Update:
Baltimore Polytechnic A
Baltimore Polytechnic B
Benjamin Banneker
Bullis
Calvert Hall
Eleanor Roosevelt
Fairfax
Fallston A
Fallston B
Hammond
Maggie Walker A
Maggie Walker B
Maggie Walker C
Montgomery Blair A
Montgomery Blair B
Montgomery Blair C
National Cathedral School A
National Cathedral School B
Reservoir A
Reservoir B
Reservoir C
Richard Montgomery A
Richard Montgomery B
South River
St. Anne's Belfield
Thomas Jefferson A
Thomas Jefferson B
Thomas Jefferson C
Walt Whitman A
Walt Whitman B
Walt Whitman C
Total: 31

Expressed Interest:
Centennial (2-3)
Maret
Howard
Churchill
Rockville

Updated 3/14/2006
Last edited by bigtrain on Tue Mar 14, 2006 11:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by NotjustoldWASPs »

Oh man, this is gonna be fun...probably the most overall skill in a tournament I've seen since the JIAT (which, unfortunately, I was stuck reading for rather than playing in). I'm looking forward to it.
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Post by Howard »

It's not looking good for us for being able to bring a team. There's still a remote possibility, but the odds aren't good.
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Post by shylar »

The comment much earlier from Howard concerning Cavalier was regarding the Cavalier Challenge by Archbishop Spalding, which was scheduled for the same day, but has been canceled due to the competition with Blue Hen and WJ.

Hammond will be sending a team to WJ, and will be hosting the state NAQTs a week later. More on that in a separate thread.

Looking forward to some good times next weekend.
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Post by bigtrain »

Total teams: 36
Baltimore Polytechnic A
Baltimore Polytechnic B
Benjamin Banneker
Bullis
Calvert Hall
Centennial A
Centennial B
Eleanor Roosevelt
Fairfax A
Fairfax B
Fallston A
Fallston B
Hammond A
Hammond B
Maggie Walker A
Maggie Walker B
Maggie Walker C
Montgomery Blair A
Montgomery Blair B
Montgomery Blair C
NCS A
NCS B
Reservoir A
Reservoir B
Reservoir C
Richard Montgomery A
Richard Montgomery B
Sidwell Friends
South River
St. Anne's Belfield
Thomas Jefferson A
Thomas Jefferson B
Thomas Jefferson C
Walt Whitman A
Walt Whitman B
Walt Whitman C

Pretty sick field. There are going to be some awesome games.
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Post by bigtrain »

Results of the Preliminary Rounds:
1 RM A
2 Gov. A
3 TJ A
4 RM B
5 Blair A
6 STAB
7 Whitman A
8 ER
9 Sidwell Friends
10 Hammond A
11 NCS A
12 TJ B
13 Gov. B
14 GDS A
15 TJ C
16 Blair B
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Post by bigtrain »

Final Results:
1 RM A
2 TJ A
3 Gov. A
4 RM B
5 Blair A
6 STAB
7 Whitman A
8 ER

Statistics will be posted soon.
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Post by bigtrain »

Results can be found here: Game Scores and Playoff Bracket
These results do not have complete statistics for the final game which will be added on Monday. These results will be put on the team website some time next week. We hope everyone enjoyed our tournament.
Last edited by bigtrain on Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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nice job

Post by bigmac »

Kudos to WJ for an exceptionally well-run tournament. Prelims, modified power-bracketing, and two final games all finished by 5ish . . . you have to love that. Readers were clear, just "fast enough," and decisive in making rulings, especially in the playoffs. All what we would expect from a top-notch program.

A "live-power era"? This topic came up before regarding a tournament we could not attend, but NAQT has become much more generous about power-marks. I obviously cannot discuss specific questions here, but alumni who played on NAQTs a year or so ago should not think that this year's generation is quite as overwhelming as it seems. There seemed to be over half a dozen teams averaging 6+ powers a game. That is new.

In any event, congratulations to TJ for a close final that came down to the end; it could have gone either way. Congrats also to Gov for yet another impressive showing.
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Post by Lapego1 »

Thomas Jefferson A 505, St. Anne's Belfield 300
Wow! I think that if NAQT kept records that combined score would be among the highest. RM's 725 points in a single game is impressive as well. The championship must've been rather interesting.
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Post by jbarnes112358 »

There were some impressive scores. But, they did read 22 tossups per game, so there were 990 possible points per game.

Maybe the power marks were a little generous; but, I believe the more important fact was that there were some very impressive teams at this tournament.

I agree that WJ ran an excellent tournament, especially given it was there first tournament. Congrats to RM A and TJ A for finishing 1,2 and congrats to our own A team for their very strong 3rd place finish, making a gallant effort to almost come back to knock off TJ in the semis. Congrats also to an impressive RM B team that proved that they too are a contender.
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Post by shylar »

This was by far the best first time tournament I've been to as a coach, and one of the top 10 overall. We learned a lot about NAQT power bracketing from this tournament, and will be implementing some of it next week for the MD HS Championships.

Kudos to Alex for great communication, and a well-organized machine.

The food for the readers was good, too. ;)

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Post by BuzzerZen »

Yeah, this was an excellently run tournament--for first-time (I think) tournament runners, it went unbelievably smoothly and in a ridiculously timely fashion. Also, this was probably one of the strongest fields in the DC/MD/VA region all year. As far as the questions, I felt that though they still had the usual sickly-sweet NAQT flavor, they were a lot better than IS-56 in terms of question legitimacy and quality. At any rate, though I still felt shame at getting the trash questions, I no longer felt disgust after hearing most of the academic questions. I remember a fair number of complaints being directed at those and at college sectional questions, so it sounds like Hentzel and Co. are back in the groove. Or something. Congrats to RM for a great final round.
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Post by bigtrain »

I have put up the game scores and playoff bracket on our team website:
Game Scores and Playoff Bracket
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