Asking TD's for specific team matchups

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Howard
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Asking TD's for specific team matchups

Post by Howard »

Split from the legal practices thread since this is more of a distinct topic. -Moderator
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Crossposted from Bad Negs, since I figured this was the best place for it:
styxman wrote:On a random note, is it ethical to ask a tournament director for placing a certain team with you in the morning pool for a tournament?
It's certainly ethical to ask. I would presume the TD would want a reasonable explanation as to the reason for your request. The ethicality comes in whether the TD actually does it and whether it's reasonable to do so. Does it have the likelihood of significantly affecting the records of either team, or worse, which teams make it to the playoffs? Does the team have a good reason?

First, I don't think it should be done if it has a reasonable likelihood of significantly changing the record of either team. Second, if it will throw off the playoff structure, don't do it. Third, if the reason is nothing greater than a grudge match and wouldn't have any significant effect on the two points above, then I'd also want the consent of the other team. I.e., I wouldn't set up a one-sided grudge match. Last, if this was a regional/state/national title tournament, I think I'd lean away from doing it just to make sure no perception of impropriety was given. Most teams view these tournaments as very important, and I wouldn't want to deviate from the procedure set forth.

But, as a TD, I think it's also important to consider that the reason for the tournament is to have a good time. If making a change helps everyone have a good time, then I think it's a reasonable thing to do. It's actually common practice in lower level chess tournaments to not make pairings that would pit two people together who play each other frequently as long as there's another reasonable pairing to be made.

And, for what it's worth, I've done it once. At my last tournament, we had a deaf team competing and another team with a student who couldn't hear very well. We had set up a special room for the deaf team where the questions were presented visually instead of audially. The coach of the team with the single student asked if I would play his team against the deaf team so they could experience the match without having to worry about hearing difficulties and so they would have experienced the method I was using to determine if there were any issues with it. Since I was running a Swiss tournament, I was pretty much happy to oblige. I paired them against each other in the first round, so that by the time the tournament was over, any change would have been nearly eliminated by the later pairings which were based on overall game and point totals.
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Post by Irreligion in Bangladesh »

Howard wrote:Crossposted from Bad Negs, since I figured this was the best place for it:
styxman wrote:On a random note, is it ethical to ask a tournament director for placing a certain team with you in the morning pool for a tournament?
I'll give my exact situation here, so you can judge it on a specific basis if you like. I agree with everything Howard said; whether or not this case fits his guidelines is what I'm asking.

We lost to Woodstock Marian last year in sectionals, and one of the main reasons I was upset over it was that I'd never seen them in or heard of them in a Saturday tournament. I'm interested in playing them at New Trier's varsity tournament for many reasons; I want to see how good they are this year for scouting purposes, though that could easily be done by looking at their record for the morning...I want to see how well they play on good, long questions...I want to see what sort of senior leadership they had last year...and of course, there's a small bit of revenge involved. I don't think it'll change either of our records much, and I can't see it throwing off a playoff spot for either of us: I'm assuming we're both second tier teams behind the high-level Chicago teams that should all be there. I would agree that having the consent of WM would be needed, and I intend on asking for it if Mr. Reinstein also allows this. Finally, this is simply a Saturday tournament, not even before the New Year.

What do you guys think?
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Post by Trevkeeper »

styxman wrote:
Howard wrote:Crossposted from Bad Negs, since I figured this was the best place for it:
styxman wrote:On a random note, is it ethical to ask a tournament director for placing a certain team with you in the morning pool for a tournament?
and I intend on asking for it if Mr. Reinstein also allows this.
Not intending to hijack your thread or anything, but this would be mine and Carlo's decision, not Mr. Reinstein's. We are the Tournament Directors.
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Post by Howard »

Trevkeeper wrote:Not intending to hijack your thread or anything, but this would be mine and Carlo's decision, not Mr. Reinstein's. We are the Tournament Directors.
And you have the source for your answer. Ultimately the TD's in question will need to make the call. Maybe they'll consider it, maybe they won't.
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Post by Tegan »

I don't see it as "unethical" but there had better be a better reason than "we got whipped twice already by them this year"

IMHO, here are some good reasons to ask:
1. The other team is a close rival, and we have a match with them on <insert date>, and we would rather wait until that date to play (I really don't like it when TD's put teams from the same conference in the same pool at tournaments. To me it is a sign of disrespect to travel a long distance and have to play a team that is (literally) less than 5 minutes from home.

2. At the last tournament, we had some problems with Team X (the coach screaming at me in front of my players, because we called off the match after his bus was 35 minutes for a trip that should have only taken 30 minutes to begin with, as an example). Putting us together brings up bad blood, and if we are together, we will insist on third parties being present, that may not be available. TD's have been very understanding in both cases.

I have made requests in both of those cases. A TD once told me flat out that he arranged for his team and mine to meet in order to "avenge" an earlier loss in the season (we won both matches in overtime anyway). I'm not sure that this was wholly ethical, even though we won (when I told my team, they did get psyched up).

When I arrange teams, I will try to take into account legit requests, as well as trying to arrange for teams to play who perhaps don't see each other on a regular basis.
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Post by Howard »

Tegan wrote:A TD once told me flat out that he arranged for his team and mine to meet in order to "avenge" an earlier loss in the season....
I don't like this for two reasons. First, it's the TD's team (if I read this correcly). It's already dubious if the TD's team does well in a tournament. Preselecting matches of the TD's preference for the TD's team are doubly dubious. I'm not saying there's anything necessarily sinister here, but the TD really should pay more attention to perception. Second, it's a crappy reason. It'd be different if both teams decided they'd like to play each other and came to the TD and requested it.
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Post by Trevkeeper »

Also, as far as I know, Winnebago has not yet registered for our tournament.
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Post by Tegan »

Howard wrote:
Tegan wrote:A TD once told me flat out that he arranged for his team and mine to meet in order to "avenge" an earlier loss in the season....
I don't like this for two reasons.
I guess my perception would be a bit different if we had lost the tie breaker, but you are correct about this whole "perception" thing:

1. I do know of a coach who will not attend a tournament if the host school writes the questions and enters a team. I think that you trust most coaches to be honest about not sharing questions, but I do catch myself from time to time writing questions that intentionally go against my team's strength to avoid the conflict. I also publish all seeding criteria and rationale to avoid anyone thinking I arranged any specific rounds with specific opponents.

2. I find it a tad dubious when a host actually officiates for his/her own team in a championship round, and does not permit the opponent a chance to split the job, or to ask for a third party. It's one thing to write the questions, but to be the referee as well sets up a bad, as you put it, perception, that even if you are on the up-and-up, is hard to get away from.

It's something that a host needs to watch out for. Reality isn't the truth; reality is always what people perceive it to be.
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Post by Howard »

Tegan wrote:2. I find it a tad dubious when a host actually officiates for his/her own team in a championship round, and does not permit the opponent a chance to split the job, or to ask for a third party. It's one thing to write the questions, but to be the referee as well sets up a bad, as you put it, perception, that even if you are on the up-and-up, is hard to get away from.
It's far worse than dubious. It actually is unfair. One of my best teams of all time was playing against a regional powerhouse in a tournament where the coaches were required to read a 50 tossup match (no bonuses). We split the reading. My team crushed the other while I was reading. While the other coach was reading the result was the opposite. When a good team becomes familiar with a particular person's reading style, they can pick up on voice clues and can better judge when to ring on just about any buzzer race. The match in question was decided by one tossup if I remember correctly.
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Post by First Chairman »

As a TD, I consider a number of different things when it comes to pairing readers with teams, but I usually do NOT consider requests FOR pairings. Rather, I try to avoid conflicts of interests and other problems as much as I can. Consequently, no coach can read her his/her team in a match.

I do consider requests from teams AGAINST certain readers, provided that the rationale is valid (apparent biases).

There may be instances when I will schedule a requested moderator or matchup together, but it will seldom come in playoffs or in matches that matter.
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