NJ NASAT

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Redgrass1
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NJ NASAT

Post by Redgrass1 »

Seeing how other states have started to organize their NASAT teams, I was wondering what NJ was doing for NASAT. How is it working?
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Re: NJ NASAT

Post by conquerer7 »

Same question. Will it be same as last year, 4 people by agreement and a science tryout? Or more tryouts / less?
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Re: NJ NASAT

Post by karav0 »

I inquired Coach Powers if he was still interested in running NJ NASAT as he has in the past, but when I asked him at Princeton NHBB there were no plans as of yet. As Kevin noted in his recent post in the NJ discussion, it has been an incredibly well matched circuit, so there may not even be an agreed top four-five or so. I mean, the History Bee should be an indicator of the best history player in the state, yet there has been a different winner at every NJ tournament this year. PPG isn't necessarily a good indicator either as then overlap for the NASAT team could occur, or players could have their PPG split by their teammates.
Other states seem to be running try outs on a playing a college level set (Kentucky/Michigan played this year's Penn-ance, Illinois also used a college set). I've seen NASAT try out packets for single subjects on hsapq, but I'm not aware if they've written one this year that could be used.
Another minor problem is that there aren't really any Saturdays open on the calendar. Unless everyone is on spring break at the same time, or everyone is willing to come in on a Sunday, there's not really an open date in the calendar aside from 4/13 which is an ACT date. This is just my two cents and I've only been playing a year so I hope this makes sense. :X
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Re: NJ NASAT

Post by Sima Guang Hater »

Penn-ance is available to you all, as usual, but it was recently posted on the archive. If you trust people not to have looked at it before showing up, it's a good set to use for this purpose.
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Re: NJ NASAT

Post by Cheynem »

Maybe MUT?
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Re: NJ NASAT

Post by Edward Powers »

I have organized the last 2 NJ trips to NASAT and I now have some free time to try again. I am willing to listen to any suggestions from students and coaches around the state. Two years ago we took 5 students---4 from the first team All State Team as selected by coaches and 1 from the 2nd team. That team played pretty well, but it was weak in science, so last year we added a science competition to determine NJ's best science player , and added this player to the 4 1st team players as voted on by the coaches. NJ played much better, finishing 7th out of 14 states, I believe while being competitive in virtually every match. I am in the process of compiling statistics for every tournament played by NJ teams thus far this year in the hopes that we can again identify, via a coaches vote at Princeton, who the top 12 players in the state are this year and perhaps from this group we can once again pick a representative NJ team. I am also open to holding competitions for seats if more than 6 students are interested in attending NASAT and if I can get some help from other coaches to hold these competitions. Also, all students who want to attend should know that there are financial costs involved . Usually schools defray expenses for their own students to attend, but this has not been universally true, so all students who are interested should know this from the outset.

So, let me close by asking two questions: First, who out there is really interested in attending? (over the last several years some of NJ's best players have not been interested) Second, does anyone have any specific suggestions about how we might proceed? If enough interest is shown, I will certainly try my best to organize another team, but I need to know if there is enough interest. So, who is really interested?

Finally, if another coach would like to take the lead with this, I will step aside but offer whatever help is needed. If no one else steps forward, I will offer my services again, so that NJ students have a chance to represent their beloved Garden State against the best players from other states around the nation.
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Re: NJ NASAT

Post by conquerer7 »

High Tech A in general is pretty interested (though we've been shadowing each other PPG-wise all year). Personally, I would love another science tryout -- that was the most fun I had all year! Maybe it'd be useful to have a tryout on art/RMP, or generally everything-but-history-and-science?
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Re: NJ NASAT

Post by Redgrass1 »

I'm interested, and I know Matt Powers, Kara Vo, and probably Ben Bechtold are as well. I don't think that doing tryouts would be a good way to find out. Does hsapq have NASAT tryout packets? I'm not really sure how it works. Are we allowed to nominate possible players? If so, I vote Matt Powers.
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Re: NJ NASAT

Post by Insolvency law of Canada »

High Tech A in general is pretty interested (though we've been shadowing each other PPG-wise all year). Personally, I would love another science tryout -- that was the most fun I had all year! Maybe it'd be useful to have a tryout on art/RMP, or generally everything-but-history-and-science?
Seconded, I am definitely interested, as is Lukas and (obviously) Kevin.
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Re: NJ NASAT

Post by Winston Smith »

Oh yeah I'm totally down for this. I would love to be at least a consideration. Sounds like a blast.
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Re: NJ NASAT

Post by Banana Stand »

I am interested in attending.
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Re: NJ NASAT

Post by Edward Powers »

I count 8 who are already interested---at least 4 from Ridgewood, 3 from High Tech and 1 from Saint Joe's---and clearly more could indicate their interest in the near future. So, since the interest is there, the key questions revolve around methods of selection which are both fair and practical. Over the last two years, the NJ Coaches picked the All State Teams and two years ago that was the means of selection. That method gave us a team of 5 very strong generalists who had one glaring weakness---in science. So, last year we still selected 4 very strong generalists but supplemented them with a player who earned the Science seat on the team via a Science competition. Perhaps this or a variation on this method will be the most practical method again. Ideally, if we could have two very strong generalists and a competition for the 4 remaining seats---in Science, Lit, History and the Arts/Humanities, this might result in the strongest team of all and provide 6 students with the chance to represent NJ. So, this is what I will try to prepare as we move forward. The key will be to find questions and some moderators to help. I have already received permission to use rooms at Princeton after States on April 20th to hold some competitions, so with some luck everyone who is interested should come to Princeton ready to compete for seats on the NJ NASAT team, with this caveat---the two players who receive the highest number of points in the All State voting will earn the two "generalists" seats, and then the remaining four seats will be determined by competitions in Science, Lit, History and the Arts/Humanities, assuming we can find pristine questions and moderators to man the rooms. So stay tuned and we'll see if we can pull this off between now and the 20th.
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Re: NJ NASAT

Post by Iluvatar343 »

Just for some clarification, what would be included in the Arts/Humanities tryout? Would this just be the standard Fine Arts distribution, or would it go beyond that to include other topics?
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Re: NJ NASAT

Post by Edward Powers »

It would include the Fine Arts, the Performing Arts and RMP.
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Re: NJ NASAT

Post by jonpin »

Ed, will you be coordinating All-State voting at the state championship again this year?
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Re: NJ NASAT

Post by karav0 »

Seeing as Penn-ance has been posted on the archives, perhaps it would be best for Coach Powers (unless another coach would like to step in) to email Minnesota and inquire if they would be alright with NJ using it. Maybe taking 30 questions of each side subject and having interested players run the gauntlet would be a good idea? Side tournaments at ACE were roughly the same length. Would subjects run consecutively or all at once (provided there are enough moderators) because several players may want to try out for more than one spot? Also would the All-Star players be able to play for subjects themselves, and most importantly (imo) will negs be in effect for the subject tournaments?
/ramble
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Re: NJ NASAT

Post by Iluvatar343 »

Erm, slightly awkward problem here. A friend (who shall remain unnamed) sent me the MUT packets, knowing that HTHS lacked the time, money, or ability to reach any other mirror of a college set, with the hope of helping us prepare for HSNCT and PACE. I had not yet distributed this set to the rest of my teammates, nor have I looked at anything more than the first 3 questions on the first packet (and I actually don't remember any of those answer lines). I have since deleted the email, but have a screenshot of the attachments showing the 11 attached packets, which, again, I did not view.

I did not and do not intend to gain any advantage in these tryouts. If we use the MUT set and people want me to withdraw, I will regrettably do so. If people trust me when I say I only looked at the first page of the first packet, than I would love to still participate. I would request that we use a different set, but if that's not possible, I will, as I said, withdraw if asked too.

Edit - additional note, I did not ask for these packets in the first place, just got the email. In retrospect, I should have made sure the set was cleared before opening even the first packet, but I obviously did not.
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Re: NJ NASAT

Post by czheng0708 »

Iluvatar343 wrote:Erm, slightly awkward problem here. A friend (who shall remain unnamed) sent me the MUT packets, knowing that HTHS lacked the time, money, or ability to reach any other mirror of a college set, with the hope of helping us prepare for HSNCT and PACE. I had not yet distributed this set to the rest of my teammates, nor have I looked at anything more than the first 3 questions on the first packet (and I actually don't remember any of those answer lines). I have since deleted the email, but have a screenshot of the attachments showing the 11 attached packets, which, again, I did not view.

I did not and do not intend to gain any advantage in these tryouts. If we use the MUT set and people want me to withdraw, I will regrettably do so. If people trust me when I say I only looked at the first page of the first packet, than I would love to still participate. I would request that we use a different set, but if that's not possible, I will, as I said, withdraw if asked too.

Edit - additional note, I did not ask for these packets in the first place, just got the email. In retrospect, I should have made sure the set was cleared before opening even the first packet, but I obviously did not.
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Re: NJ NASAT

Post by Edward Powers »

Several responses:

1. Thanks for your integrity Lukas. But do not worry---if we are able to run the competitions, we will not use MUT. And all potential competitors should let the coaches worry about finding appropriate questions.
2. Kara---the ideal would be to allow students to try-out in more than one area. If we could arrange a separate day and venue to achieve this, and have sufficient numbers of pristine questions and sufficient staff and buzzers, this would be great. But if we can only do this after States at Princeton, then time constraints might prevent this ideal from coming to pass---for example, how long will bus drivers be asked to wait while players compete in more than one discipline, and how long can rooms at Princeton be used, etc, etc---these are only two constraints among several others that can be imagined which can prevent an ideal competitive situation, and all involved need to foresee these constraints and understand them from the outset. So the real question is whether we should use the Princeton opportunity as best we can, or, to seek a separate day and venue, perhaps on a Sunday, to do this in the most ideal fashion?
3. Jon, I have created a statistical summary of 15 Tournaments held in the region this year---on 6 NAQT Sets, 6 ACF Sets, and 3 NH Bee Sets, highlighting the best performances as comprehensively as I could. My intent was to distribute these at States, along with ballots, to allow Coaches at States to select a 1st, 2nd and 3rd team All State Squad, so that we could honor our best players, as we have the past two years. But I would certainly appreciate any help in moderating or counting ballots that you would be willing to offer, as I would appreciate similar help from any other Coach who is reading this and who will be at Princeton on the 20th.
4. I do not wish to appear to be someone trying to control this process---in a post above I offered to let another Coach take this process over, since I have had the honor of taking NJ's NASAT Team to Nationals the past two years. But I have offered my services again if other Coaches cannot, for whatever reason, bring our team to Nationals. My efforts here are simply responses to inquires from terrific kids who asked about NASAT. Given my experience with NASAT and with the selection of All State Teams the past two years, I simply stepped forward to offer my help with their concerns, and I know that if we are both intelligent and patient, we can achieve two worthy yet essentially separate things as this process unfolds over the next several weeks or so: First, we can honor our best players again this year by selecting our All State performers for 2012-2013. So, even if we only achieve this result, this would be a worthy accomplishment. But second, we can also find, via the All State voting and head-to-head competitions, 2 generalists and 4 specialists in order to create the best NJ team we can to go to NASAT in Ohio in June. This would be a second worthwhile accomplishment and it would satisfy the concerns of the students who initiated and developed this forum in the first place.
5. So, a final question for all who care about this process: Should we seek a separate day and venue to find our NASAT team in a more leisurely, transparent and comprehensive fashion, or, given the late date, should we take advantage of the opportunity available at Princeton on the 20th, understanding that choosing this option imposes certain constraints that are not ideal? And if the former, will any school offer its facilities as a venue, and what date is proposed to hold these competitions---and might an upcoming Sunday be acceptable if a convenient Saturday cannot be found?
6. I cannot promise anything, but I will ask my Principal if I could secure Saint Joe's as a venue on either Sunday, April 14th or Sunday, April 21st, the day after States, and this latter date would be my preference in order to provide more time to insure that other logistical issues are wisely addressed. Perhaps others can also inquire from their superiors if their school can be used for these competitions, and, as a result, perhaps we can offer players more ideal competitive circumstances at one of our NJ schools. Failing this, the Princeton option, though not ideal, would seem to be the best remaining option. Of course if someone can offer an even better solution than those suggested here, then perhaps this would be best of all. In the meantime, I will report my Principal's response right here on this Forum as soon as I hear back from him.
Last edited by Edward Powers on Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: NJ NASAT

Post by Iluvatar343 »

I would prefer that we do it on the 20th, as finding free weekends with college visits (for many people) and lacrosse (that's probably just me) is difficult.
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Re: NJ NASAT

Post by Edward Powers »

My Principal currently sees no problem with using SJHS on Sunday the 21st, but he cannot confirm with certainty until he sees the school's facilities usage schedule, which he cannot see until our return to school next week. Also, irrespective of where and when we hold try-outs, we will need pristine questions and I have been working on that as well, so far with some success.

As for your preference, Lukas, it is duly noted. But a preference requires options. So far we have one option only, at Princeton on the 20th, but it has certain limitations, noted briefly above. The option I am working on allows for greater leisure but perhaps is also problematic for some because of the date. But until a 2nd option is in fact secured, either at SJHS or elsewhere on the 21st, the only current option we have is on the 20th at Princeton. And I am also awaiting a response from the Princeton organizer to see how much time and how many rooms we might be able to use after States on the 20th. If sufficient time and rooms are allowed, then perhaps a 2nd option might not be necessary. But it is good to have contingent plans in case the primary plan cannot work. Would you not agree? And you must also agree that no matter what option we finally agree upon, we will never be able to please everyone. Still, this is currently just a work in progress, so I recommend simple patience and trust that all will work out as best it can.
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Re: NJ NASAT

Post by karav0 »

Perhaps polling people about which dates work, who is interested in trying out/can moderate would work best to see a general agreement? Prison Bowl this weekend brings several NJ teams together, and there's an opportunity to broadcast in case an interested team is not particularly active on the forums. Maybe if there is a wide enough consensus, some subjects could be run on the 20th or the 21rst, players/staff pending seeing as some players may not be able to make it due to extracurriculars/religious activities?
p.s. kudos to Lukas
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Re: NJ NASAT

Post by i never see pigeons in wheeling »

Edward Powers wrote: Also, irrespective of where and when we hold try-outs, we will need pristine questions and I have been working on that as well, so far with some success.
If you require pristine questions, I'm sure the Berkeley-OSU housewritten regular college difficulty (but still accessible) set Western Invitational Tournament will be available to run.
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Re: NJ NASAT

Post by Edward Powers »

Ankit,

Do you know who I could contact to inquire about the availability and possible cost of the Berkeley-OSU Set?
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Re: NJ NASAT

Post by jonathanmarx »

Edward Powers wrote:Ankit,

Do you know who I could contact to inquire about the availability and possible cost of the Berkeley-OSU Set?
Sorry to hijack this thread, but ditto (we're running Maryland tryouts on April 13th and were planning to use Penn-ance before it got posted on the archives.)
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Re: NJ NASAT

Post by roey »

Hi everyone,
I'd just like to add that although I have been part of the NJ NASAT teams the last two years and would be more than interested in going again, I will not be able to since it is the weekend of my graduation. I'm disappointed I can't do it again, but I'd like to wish the NJ team as well as all of those interested in competing the best of luck. Hope the team does a great job representing the Garden State!
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Re: NJ NASAT

Post by tgaddy »

Just so you know Jonathan, both Ian and I played WIT earlier this year. MUT might be a better choice if you're concerned about question security and stuff.

Also, sorry for hijacking this as well.
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Re: NJ NASAT

Post by jonathanmarx »

tgaddy wrote:Just so you know Jonathan, both Ian and I played WIT earlier this year. MUT might be a better choice if you're concerned about question security and stuff.

Also, sorry for hijacking this as well.
That's right, I'd totally forgotten. I shall look into it.
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Re: NJ NASAT

Post by i never see pigeons in wheeling »

Edward Powers wrote:Ankit,

Do you know who I could contact to inquire about the availability and possible cost of the Berkeley-OSU Set?
Auroni was our head editor, so he would be the guy to ask.
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Re: NJ NASAT

Post by Edward Powers »

Thanks Ankit.
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